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sausalito
Jan 20, 2008, 1:03 AM
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j_ung wrote: sausalito wrote: Jung has said he sent one back in the spring of 2007 and didnt hear jack about it. Hold on a sec! I said I told them about one in spring '07. I sent one at the beginning of winter '07. Though they may have received other Zephyrs, the earliest confirmed return I know is phlsphr's rope in the fall '07.
mea culpa. My main point was that the local retailer was the one deserving accolades NOT Petzl. The guy that responded was giving Petzl accolades for acting. But to your point the best case scenario by Petzl is they have know about this problem for over a month at LEAST and have done nothing about it. The least Petzl should do is send out a "discontinue use until further notice" type of warning until the issue is resolved.
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Adk
Jan 20, 2008, 4:55 AM
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For the immediate future, both companies will show together at the Outdoor Retailer trade shows. PMI will remain a Petzl distributor for work, rescue and caving products, as well as continuing to be a rope manufacturer. Petzl America will continue to distribute PMI's sport ropes from its warehouse in Utah. The rep force for both companies will remain unchanged.
1999 dated information. This info may be inaccurate now and a link to the new would be nice.
Here is the old link:
http://www.allbusiness.com/...neous/4249785-1.html
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drjghl
Jan 20, 2008, 6:32 AM
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I just took a peek at the Petzl website and looked at their webpage on the Zephyr.
I'm surprised that the Zephyr is still being advertised.
In September 2007, a climber posted a thread in regards to the Petzl Zephyr suggesting that the rope may have flaws.
This new post about the Petzl Zephyr is alarming.
I'm not sure why this rope has not been recalled. I work in a field where many products hit the market only to be recalled when problems arise that were undetected because of limitations that arise from small sampling sizes, etc.
All I have to say is caveat emptor.
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benj
Jan 21, 2008, 4:27 AM
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I work in a gear shop, own a Nomad 9.8 and have access to a Zephyr when I want to borrow it. I was really stoked on Petzl's ropes because they offered a reasonably low impact force, durability and good handling. I have been happy with everything else Petzl has made so I decided to see how the Nomad compared to the Beal Boosters 9.7 I have been using for years. I have also climbed on Mammut and Maxim ropes which I found to be more durable than Beal but less desirable because of the higher impact forces.
A friend of mine who also works at the store had a Nomad and sent it back to Petzl after the sheath crisped up and disintegrated within the first week of use. Petzl sent my friend a new rope and the same thing happened. Unreasonable wear from light falls or tying knots and loading them. Shealth damage like nothing we have ever seen on any ropes.
On the other hand my Nomad is 6 months old and looks pretty good considering what it has been through. Needles SD, Devil's Tower, Tetons, Bugs, soaking wet in Squamish, NRG, RRG, local choss, the gym and is currently drying from another day of ice climbing. The rope has a couple of flat spots similar to the ones in the fall zone on my Beal Booster and some normal shealth wear. It doesn't appear to be more or less durable than Beal ropes.
Petzl is aware that there is a shealth issue. Our rep told us that it was a batch problem and should be cleared up. What is odd is that my rope and my friend's rope were ordered at the same time and came in on the same shipment. After learning of my friend's bad experience w/ the rope our rep came in and showed us his 4 month old Nomad that looked like mine. Some fuzz but nothing out of the ordinary for a rope that is used 3+ days a week. One of the other guys that I work with has a Fuse 9.4 and hasn't had any problems with it.
I am eager to see how the majority of these ropes perform. I am happy with mine but having seen a couple of returned Zephyrs and my friend's Nomad I can completely understand that some people are not impressed. The fact that my friend's replacement rope fell apart quickly is puzzling and frustrating.
If Petzl has isolated the problem and figured out a solution there is no reason for a recall. The Sarken recall (many thousands of units manufactured) happened over something like 20 cracked pairs in rental fleets. The cracking was unlikely but the potential was universal to all of the production lots because of the design. They take this stuff seriously and are definetly aware that unhappy customers can have a big impact on whether or not their ropes sell.
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waltersiebert
Jan 21, 2008, 9:31 AM
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Petzl has great stuff which I prefer to use. I was disappointed when I wrote a letter with a question regarding a safety issue. I got the feeling that this company became quite arrogant.
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Vinny_A
Jan 22, 2008, 4:07 AM
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Holy shit am I glad I went with a sterling rope! I was almost about to pull the trigger on a petzl rope too.
Still going to use thier draws and harnesses with full confidence though.
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vegastradguy
Jan 22, 2008, 4:14 AM
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Adk wrote: For the immediate future, both companies will show together at the Outdoor Retailer trade shows. PMI will remain a Petzl distributor for work, rescue and caving products, as well as continuing to be a rope manufacturer. Petzl America will continue to distribute PMI's sport ropes from its warehouse in Utah. The rep force for both companies will remain unchanged. 1999 dated information. This info may be inaccurate now and a link to the new would be nice. Here is the old link: http://www.allbusiness.com/...neous/4249785-1.html
actually, PMI shows at Trango these days, now that Trango has become the distributor for PMI ropes in America (at least, i think thats how it works out- mal can certainly clarify). The Trango booth also houses Flashed, the awesome crash pad company from Canada.
as for Petzl- i have asked them for a comment on the matter, and at this time, they have no official comment regarding the apparent Zephyr rope problem.
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Eric_at_Petzl
Jan 22, 2008, 10:05 PM
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Hello
We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then:
Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached.
Additional info:
• Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation.
• We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope.
• When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product.
• If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques.
• Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com.
Thank you,
Eric Wynn
Communications Manager
Petzl America
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ja1484
Jan 22, 2008, 10:44 PM
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This is the kind of communication we need more of between gear manufacturers and climbers. Very reminiscent of Michael at OP and Mal at Trango. Good to see Petzl stepping in the right direction.
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caughtinside
Jan 22, 2008, 10:56 PM
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Met a climber this weekend whose zephyr had the same severe sheath wear after 6 days of use, she was able to exchange it with the retailer for a new petzl 9.8.
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moose_droppings
Jan 23, 2008, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope.
Maybe they aren't, but I'm getting a little concerned. Seems like more than just a couple are having the same problem, of course this is hearsay from the reports here. Maybe to many are returning them to the place where they bought them instead of sending them directly to Petzl. Is it possible that Petzls not getting all these back with the same problems in the same areas that were hearing about here?
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jan 23, 2008, 12:28 AM)
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throb
Jan 23, 2008, 12:52 AM
Post #63 of 156
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Eric_at_Petzl wrote: Hello We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then: Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached. Additional info: • Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation. • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope. • When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product. • If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques. • Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com. Thank you, Eric Wynn Communications Manager Petzl America
Sheath are disintegrating and there is no safety concern? What kind of company are you working for that has no concern over safety when ropes are falling apart!
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ja1484
Jan 23, 2008, 2:01 AM
Post #64 of 156
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throb wrote: Eric_at_Petzl wrote: Hello We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then: Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached. Additional info: • Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation. • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope. • When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product. • If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques. • Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com. Thank you, Eric Wynn Communications Manager Petzl America Sheath are disintegrating and there is no safety concern? What kind of company are you working for that has no concern over safety when ropes are falling apart!
I think he was speaking a little more generally - i.e. these are isolated incidents and there's no reason to think the problem is widespread.
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stymingersfink
Jan 23, 2008, 2:33 AM
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ja1484 wrote: throb wrote: Eric_at_Petzl wrote: Hello We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then: Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached. Additional info: • Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation. • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope. • When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product. • If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques. • Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com. Thank you, Eric Wynn Communications Manager Petzl America Sheath are disintegrating and there is no safety concern? What kind of company are you working for that has no concern over safety when ropes are falling apart! I think he was speaking a little more generally - i.e. these are isolated incidents and there's no reason to think the problem is widespread.
In situations where one is leading multi-pitch, such wear would quickly become apparent, as the rope is cycled through two belay devices for every pitch led. On climbs where the leader is lowered or raps off, it would also become quickly evident that the rope's integrity is becoming questionable.
Would I be happy if this were happening to me though? Hell no! Skip the retailer, I'd be on the phone to Petzl that afternoon, making sure they arranged a Fed-Ex pickup for the following day!
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throb
Jan 23, 2008, 9:29 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: ja1484 wrote: throb wrote: Eric_at_Petzl wrote: Hello We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then: Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached. Additional info: • Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation. • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope. • When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product. • If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques. • Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com. Thank you, Eric Wynn Communications Manager Petzl America Sheath are disintegrating and there is no safety concern? What kind of company are you working for that has no concern over safety when ropes are falling apart! I think he was speaking a little more generally - i.e. these are isolated incidents and there's no reason to think the problem is widespread. Not only that, but it would appear the core remains intact. If one is climbing in a manner that they fail to notice the sheath damage, there may be an issue if the use is not discontinued ASAP... however, as approximately 30% of the rope's strength comes from the sheath it's doubtful one would even begin to approach such loads in a TR situation. This presents a good argument for keeping an eye on one's gear while in use, however.
The sheath is disintegrating and you expect someone to trust the core? This is a safety issue and should be taken more seriously by Petzl!
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stymingersfink
Jan 23, 2008, 11:17 PM
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throb wrote: stymingersfink wrote: ja1484 wrote: throb wrote: Eric_at_Petzl wrote: Hello We learned of this thread last week and would like to briefly address some of the concerns raised since then: Over the last year, a small number of ropes have been returned to us showing premature wear and we are studying them on a case-by-case basis to determine the possible contributing factors and scope of the issue. Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as we would like: though we have received some complaints of premature wear, the more common user experience is that the ropes are holding up well under heavy use. This experience is supported by ongoing lab and field testing. We are continuing to study this issue and will post our conclusions here when reached. Additional info: • Re: Rope referenced by OP: we have tracked it down at the dealer and are having it returned to us for evaluation. • We have found no evidence to suggest there is a safety concern with Petzl rope. • When we find a safety concern with any Petzl product, we take immediate action, including a recall of the product. • If you have an issue with the performance of Petzl ropes, we encourage you to contact us directly so that your problem can be quickly addressed. A healthy exchange of information helps us to continually improve our products and techniques. • Contact Petzl America at: 801 926 1500 or info@petzl.com. Thank you, Eric Wynn Communications Manager Petzl America Sheath are disintegrating and there is no safety concern? What kind of company are you working for that has no concern over safety when ropes are falling apart! I think he was speaking a little more generally - i.e. these are isolated incidents and there's no reason to think the problem is widespread. Not only that, but it would appear the core remains intact. If one is climbing in a manner that they fail to notice the sheath damage, there may be an issue if the use is not discontinued ASAP... however, as approximately 30% of the rope's strength comes from the sheath it's doubtful one would even begin to approach such loads in a TR situation. This presents a good argument for keeping an eye on one's gear while in use, however. The sheath is disintegrating and you expect someone to trust the core?
In reply to: This is a safety issue and should be taken more seriously by Petzl!
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socalclimber
Jan 24, 2008, 1:42 AM
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I'm not responding to any one indvidual. But I have to say this:
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???? WHAT A BUNCH OF WHINING PUSSIES
You people have so lost the concept of what climbing is that I cannot even begin to put a label on it.
SHUT THE FUCK UP
There has only been one improper response from ONE company of gear failure, that was CCH.
Jesus christ, stay home. It's safe there.
WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?
CLIMBING IS FUCKING DANGEROUS!
I ran Search And Rescue for the NPS here in JTREE for almost five years. EVERY CLIMBING ACCIDENT I SAW WAS DUE TO PILOT ERROR. NOT BECAUSE GEAR FAILED.
When are you morons going to grow up and take some fucking responsiblity for your decisions.
I thought Petzl's response was very appropriate.
It's a safety issue, oh brother. GET A CLUE.
This outta bring out the safety Nazis.......... Not to mention all the excuses for their own stupidity.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jan 24, 2008, 1:49 AM)
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throb
Jan 24, 2008, 4:41 AM
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The sheath is disintegrating and you expect someone to trust the core?Not exactly... I'm saying that if someone is not attentive enough to their life-line to notice the sheath developing a self-cleaning window for the core to rid itself of whatever dirt and grime may have accumulated there within, and when the situation arises that the sheath decides to slip a good way down the core due to the belay device's friction, lying crumpled in the belayer's hands like a skirt around the ankles of a drunken sorority girl, someone will probably quite suddenly develop as much interest in examining the integrity of the rope as they might have had inspecting the sorority skirt, and certainly as closely.
I like drunk sorority girls, mmmmmmmmmmm,
however references to hot drunk girls doesn't change the fact that saying this wasn't a safety issue was stupid.
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moose_droppings
Jan 24, 2008, 5:00 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I'm not responding to any one indvidual. But I have to say this: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???? WHAT A BUNCH OF WHINING PUSSIES You people have so lost the concept of what climbing is that I cannot even begin to put a label on it. SHUT THE FUCK UP There has only been one improper response from ONE company of gear failure, that was CCH. Jesus christ, stay home. It's safe there. WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? CLIMBING IS FUCKING DANGEROUS! I ran Search And Rescue for the NPS here in JTREE for almost five years. EVERY CLIMBING ACCIDENT I SAW WAS DUE TO PILOT ERROR. NOT BECAUSE GEAR FAILED. When are you morons going to grow up and take some fucking responsiblity for your decisions. I thought Petzl's response was very appropriate. It's a safety issue, oh brother. GET A CLUE. This outta bring out the safety Nazis.......... Not to mention all the excuses for their own stupidity.
Good gawd RF, don't have a stroke.
No one has initiated a lynching on
Petzl yet.
One falling apart, as described here, should raise an eyebrow. Any more than that should be of concern, if all these are indeed true.
Thats all I'm saying.
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djoseph
Jan 24, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Robert: This is clearly a QC issue, which in the world of climbing always raises issues of safety.
I have the highest regard for Petzl's QC. I own Petzl ascenders, helmet, grigri, etc.
However, the occasion of a "bad batch" of ropes being identified through anecdotal reports over the internet rasies questions for me. I assume that these ropes are being mfg by another company with its own QC.
I guess I'm surprised that any Petzl products would have QC issues... but that's only because Petzl has had such a stellar track record. I hope that they identify the problem and issue a formal explanation/recall/whatever asap.
Dan
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jt512
Jan 24, 2008, 5:56 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I'm not responding to any one indvidual. But I have to say this: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???? WHAT A BUNCH OF WHINING PUSSIES You people have so lost the concept of what climbing is that I cannot even begin to put a label on it. SHUT THE FUCK UP There has only been one improper response from ONE company of gear failure, that was CCH. Jesus christ, stay home. It's safe there. WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? CLIMBING IS FUCKING DANGEROUS! I ran Search And Rescue for the NPS here in JTREE for almost five years. EVERY CLIMBING ACCIDENT I SAW WAS DUE TO PILOT ERROR. NOT BECAUSE GEAR FAILED. When are you morons going to grow up and take some fucking responsiblity for your decisions. I thought Petzl's response was very appropriate. It's a safety issue, oh brother. GET A CLUE. This outta bring out the safety Nazis.......... Not to mention all the excuses for their own stupidity.
Someone needs a margarita at Edchada's
Jay
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knudenoggin
Jan 24, 2008, 11:18 PM
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In reply to: Because the sheath didn't "fray" but "powdered" it seems there's a severe problem with the structural integrity of the actual sheath fibers. Upon analyzing the rope, it appeared to be only in the area of the 6-meter marked sections, which were noticeably softer than the rest of the rope. Rubbing the sheath in these areas with a fingernail caused additional "powdering." ------------------------------------------------------- The shot shows worn sections, about three meters off both ends, ------------------------------------------------------- A friend of mine who also works at the store had a Nomad and sent it back to Petzl after the sheath crisped up and disintegrated within the first week of use. Petzl sent my friend a new rope and the same thing happened. Unreasonable wear from light falls or tying knots and loading them. Shealth damage like nothing we have ever seen on any ropes.
Again, this wear seems highly inconsistent with nylon, at least relatively new & untainted nylon.
Has anyone seen such behavior of disintegration in their really well-used old ropes--i.p., the "powdering" spotting on rock(!) ?
In reply to: Petzl is aware that there is a shealth issue. Our rep told us that it was a batch problem and should be cleared up.
*kN*
(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Jan 25, 2008, 6:57 PM)
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jeff_m
Jan 25, 2008, 12:17 AM
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This is a shot of the "powder" from the rope: small, short, brittle fibers. Heat? Chemical? That's what I'm hoping we find out.
And, no, there were no knots tied anywhere near the 6-meter (20-foot) marked sections.
stymingersfink wrote: Skip the retailer, I'd be on the phone to Petzl that afternoon, making sure they arranged a Fed-Ex pickup for the following day!
Just to clarify returning the rope to the retailer and not directly to Petzl (which after giving it thought, I recommended my partner doing), that's one of the issues. If your rope shreds on an afternoon and then you find out that this has happened to others who have sent them back to Petzl and are sent replacements that also have problems---what decision would you make? (Obviously, if this were the only incident it would've been at Petzl the next day.) If Petzl has a dozen ropes already with the same problem, FedEx'ing another one didn't make sense, so the instructions were with the retailer to return it and have another rope right away.
majid_sabet wrote: it looks like those red marks are near the same area which tells me that you had a rope drag with some load on it. How many times you lowered people on that section ?
As a follow up, over the weekend we returned to the crag (with some beginners in tow) and set up the same route and anchor (2 bolts with a quad and two oval lockers for the MP). Using my year-and-a-half old "other brand" rope (which has been used no less than four times per month in the interim---this route included a number of times---and is normally a bit fuzzed in the parts that get fuzzy) I led the route (a short four-bolt 10a) and set the anchor.
At the end of the day (with two beginners flailing and hang-dogging on the route throughout, along with six other climbers of varying abilities doing laps) the rope was not noticeably different from the start of the day. No, not exactly scientific (and I am sorry, a little, if our test subjects couldn't even lift their toothbrushes the next day), but more in line with what's expected from rope performance. I lost count on how many total laps, but I'd say at least 25.
In support of Petzl, I appreciate Eric's attention to this and am looking forward to getting some report about this trend. However, if the other ropes returned (starting last spring) haven't been conclusively analyzed, then we may be in for a wait.
Hence, my original caveat: IF you have a Zephyr: keep an eye on it.
P.S. Thanks for the chuckle Robert, but just so this thread doesn't deviate to an "I hate—/Why didn't you.../You!/NO YOU!/YOUR MAMA!" exercise, anyone can pm me directly if they feel the urge. Cheers.
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socalclimber
Jan 25, 2008, 12:49 AM
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"P.S. Thanks for the chuckle Robert, but just so this thread doesn't deviate to an "I hate—/Why didn't you.../You!/NO YOU!/YOUR MAMA!" exercise, anyone can pm me directly if they feel the urge. Cheers. "
Listen here asshole.... Oh..... Ok...... I'll concede. I was in a bad mood yesterday when I went off. Sorry. I wish I could say something that would be redeeming, but I can't. Escpecially since I broke the very rule I tried to make in the begininng of this thread about this not turning into a flame fest.
Can I have HUG?
But but but... I just know some how I must be rightl...
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jan 25, 2008, 12:54 AM)
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