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ambler
Oct 13, 2005, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural. Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;)
Just to illustrate this wordy thread, here's an image for the OP's question 2.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...000026108AbOWzdszbNh
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dahoobit
Oct 13, 2005, 5:59 PM
Post #177 of 323
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1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:26 AM
Post #178 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;) [discussion of the singular "they" snipped by ambler] Dingus ain't "touting nonsense," he's making some of the best sense on this thread. Among other things, he's reminding folks that "climbing" and "first ascents" encompass other games besides "sport climbing," that not all new rock is choss, and that stereotypes often don't fit.
Heh.
Try re-reading. I highlighted some things to make it easier for you.
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ambler
Oct 14, 2005, 1:19 PM
Post #179 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Arnold can't be president and your sig line doesn't agree with itself, climber is singular and their is plural.Oh come on, Dingus. You're one of the last people on this site that I'd expect to be touting that type of nonsense. ;) [discussion of the singular "they" snipped by ambler] Dingus ain't "touting nonsense," he's making some of the best sense on this thread. Among other things, he's reminding folks that "climbing" and "first ascents" encompass other games besides "sport climbing," that not all new rock is choss, and that stereotypes often don't fit. Heh. Try re-reading. I highlighted some things to make it easier for you. |
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cchildre
Oct 14, 2005, 2:21 PM
Post #180 of 323
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1. No
2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would.
3. No - unless it is private property, and then your can do as you please, but I would compare it to gym climbing, not natural at all.
Just keep it natural, there are plenty of lines that you can put up that don't need to be chipped. If someone puts up a route above their limit, they should be given an adequate time to get the first free ascent, but if a year passes, then it is open season. Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO.
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:26 PM
Post #181 of 323
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In reply to: I know what you said, was unimpressed, but used your "touting nonsense" quote to frame my response to the more interesting discussion above.
Ahh, so you deliberately quoted me out of context.
How nice.
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 2:31 PM
Post #182 of 323
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In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would.
FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13.
In reply to: Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO.
It's also not quite what is being discussed.
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nrgroscoe
Oct 14, 2005, 2:58 PM
Post #183 of 323
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My answer to all three is NO.
As one who has chipped and then regretted it later, went back and filled the holds and then resent it, it is was a stupid move on my part.
Hindsight is 50/50 and after that episode i see the value of trying harder and then if not able to do it leave it for the next climber. I left quite a few projects in mexico because i was not strong enough to send it and smart enough to leave it be....
Learn from others mistakes and admit when you make one. Tony Yaniro should learn this lesson...
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cchildre
Oct 14, 2005, 3:19 PM
Post #184 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would. FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13. In reply to: Chipping the holds to get the FA is just misguided IMO. It's also not quite what is being discussed.
FYI, V11 is a boulder rating and 5.13 is a sport rating. Comparision is debatable and really shouldn't be made IMO, I was merely using a general reference, not the exact one you seek, so its .14a/b, I think my point is still applicable.
Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try!
In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? |
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fracture
Oct 14, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #185 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. No - who says hardmen won't like a 5.10 up into a 5.13 crux, especially those looking to break into the 5.13 realm, because I think someone would. FYI, V11 is harder than 5.13. FYI, V11 is a boulder rating and 5.13 is a sport rating. Comparision is debatable and really shouldn't be made IMO, I was merely using a general reference, not the exact one you seek, so its .14a/b, I think my point is still applicable.
Doesn't matter whether you think it "should" be made---it can be and often is made. The hypothetical route we have been discussing (5.10---negligable difficulty relatively speaking---up to a V11) would implicitly condone such conversions if given a YDS rating.
You yourself made such a comparison by calling our hypothetical route 5.13.
In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
We were talking about item #2.
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teflondon
Oct 15, 2005, 1:34 AM
Post #186 of 323
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(1) NO
(2) NO
(3) ONLY IF PRIVATELY OWNED
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jobo
Oct 15, 2005, 1:52 AM
Post #187 of 323
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no
hell no
and no, just to keep in line with my previous responses.
Seriously though, if u want to chip something, go and work your houses brick wall over, leave the rock as it was
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deschamps1000
Oct 15, 2005, 3:38 AM
Post #188 of 323
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1. No
2. No
3. No
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cchildre
Oct 15, 2005, 7:23 PM
Post #189 of 323
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In reply to: Doesn't matter whether you think it "should" be made---it can be and often is made. The hypothetical route we have been discussing (5.10---negligable difficulty relatively speaking---up to a V11) would implicitly condone such conversions if given a YDS rating. You yourself made such a comparison by calling our hypothetical route 5.13.
Yeah.....well you got me there....for lack of unified terminology, I must submit.
In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? We were talking about item #2.
I was not....I suppose that should have been clearer in my original reply.
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fracture
Oct 16, 2005, 2:13 AM
Post #190 of 323
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In reply to: In reply to: Also, chipping holds to get the FA is exactly whats being discussed, or did you not read the very first question the OP started off with? LOL, nice try! In reply to: 1) ......... Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? We were talking about item #2. I was not....I suppose that should have been clearer in my original reply.
*nod*
FWIW, I completely agree with you on that partifcular aspect: if you are chipping just so that you can get the FA, that's lame.
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 4:26 AM
Post #191 of 323
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It's easy to state that all new routing requires chipping. I recall vividly pulling a volleyball-sized chunk of iron-laced sandstone (formerly the obvious rest on our onsight first ascent idea) off, nearly onto my belayer (who was wearing the only helmet we owned between us). On this new route, put up onsight, ground-up, and on clean gear only, the only "chipping" that took place was the bruce lee style kicking I used to identify the solid footholds as distinct from the choss. We rapped directly from a tree on top, leaving no trace whatsoever of our ascent, never reported the route in any way, and left happy and fulfilled. The next party up the route will have bushwhacked, cleaned with hands and feet, no crowbars required, and summited in a similar style, and unless they look closely at some suspiciously-smashed little former thin rails of friable sandstone, they will have the first ascent to themselves, too. I admit freely that every route will not go down in this fashion, and I even more freely admit that a lot of people would never want to climb a route this "un-user-friendly" [offwidth roofs aren't on everyone's menu]-I'm just asking the chippers if we ALL have to suddenly be Joe Brooks, too, just because they made a less than admirable choice at one point. What people are avoiding saying is that this kind of first ascent ethic is less cool than a route made with a purer ethic. People's self-worth is too wrapped up in their "route creations" and "lifetime projects" to be able to stand up and say "hey, I made this route, it's pretty fun, I chipped it up a little to improve a section I thought wasn't that cool, so climb it and see if you think I was right to fix that part." No, people are ashamed, and scared of consequences for their actions, which is ridiculous considering how rarely the BLM ever chases down anyone for anything. Brooks got off scott free for Potosi, Charleston, the Promised Land, etc...why not just be honest with everyone if there's nothing wrong with how you're new-routing? Because there is, and you know it. And so do we.
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doogle
Oct 13, 2006, 5:06 AM
Post #192 of 323
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Registered: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 89
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Why did you go and raise the dead? Just let this thread RIP!
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veganboyjosh
Oct 13, 2006, 5:55 AM
Post #193 of 323
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Posts: 1421
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dude. if you'da waited three more days, it'da been a year.
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rrrADAM
Oct 13, 2006, 6:35 AM
Post #194 of 323
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Registered: Dec 19, 1999
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No to all 3.
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dynoho
Oct 13, 2006, 7:00 AM
Post #195 of 323
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Registered: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 285
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Well, it's alive again.
First off, forget the plural/singular, how about the spelling?
A Climber's Biggest obsticle is Their MIND!!!!
In all examples, I would say the answer today is no. What was acceptable in the past is no longer seen as such. No, piton scars are not seen as chipping, but more accurately as irreparable damage that most endeavor to avoid today. I believe that preservation of the limited climbable rock is more important than the arrogant creation of new classics. In a few short years, through improved gear, shoes, technique, training, genes, etc. these routes will be conquered by many, as is. Why should they be wrecked now other than to pacify the egos of the current creator?
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ateam
Oct 13, 2006, 7:15 AM
Post #196 of 323
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Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 4
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NO,
NO,
and NOOOOOO!
Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall
off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes
already in existence that you haven't done yet.
--Steve
Three Ball Climbing
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ateam
Oct 13, 2006, 7:16 AM
Post #197 of 323
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Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 4
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NO,
NO,
and NOOOOOO!
Let nature take its course! Maybe in 200 years some features will fall
off and create a perfect route! An earthquake could happen and create a nice hand crack! I'm sure there are plenty of other routes
already in existence that you haven't done yet.
--Steve
Three Ball Climbing
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bennydh
Oct 13, 2006, 8:22 AM
Post #198 of 323
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Registered: May 2, 2005
Posts: 368
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1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
Grow some Eff-in balls. Go somewhere else if the climb doesn't suit your lack of ability. You chip a hole in a rock and I'll Chip a hole in your skull. !!!!
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ajkclay
Oct 13, 2006, 9:04 AM
Post #199 of 323
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Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
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no
nein
nyet
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