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boardline22
Dec 24, 2005, 9:13 PM
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On Friday December 23rd, 2005 I went to VE in Warrenville, and just before I get on my 3rd climb, I turn around and see a guy whos was climbing an auto belay falling five feet then heard a loud bang. The VE staff quickly reactedand called 911 then closed the bottom section of the wall
I later talk to staff and it turns out the guy had his harness on backwards and clipped onto the gear loop which brok when he put his weight on it. The other part was he brought the harness from outside the gym so you would think he would know how to put it on.
Chalk another accident up because of user's fault
any comments?
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sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 9:28 PM
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As annoying as I sometimes find it, there is something to be said for gyms making sure you know what you are doing, before allowing you to go at it unsupervised.
I have been in many gyms where you sign the waiver, and away you go. Though convenient for those of us who actually know what we are doing, this means anyone can walk in, say 'sure, I know what I am doing' and set about trying to injure or kill themselves in the best manner possible (as happened at VE).
The gym should know that the waiver means very little when/if someone like that decides to sue, especially if their idea of 'checking to make sure the customer knows what they are doing' consists of only verbally asking!
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erclimb
Dec 24, 2005, 9:32 PM
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i bet he sues, and i bet he wins; his case: having a harness on backwards is such an obvious mistake that the professionals on the staff should have noticed and stopped him before he started climbing
i DO NOT think he should win (in fact, i think such stupidity should be punishable with jail time), but what are the chances of the defense getting a judge or 6 jurors who climb?
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csgambill
Dec 24, 2005, 9:43 PM
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What a fucking loser. Now we'll all probably have to go through a safety class so the staff can make sure we all know how to put our harnesses on correctly. They just instituted a rule that we (guys) have to wear our shirts all the time. Evidently some feminazi bitch got jealous and complained. Although I liked the no-topropes in the area around the bouldering cave. It kept away all the little kids and forced me to climb harder. ...Especially when I wasn't wearing a shirt. oh well, what can you do. Have to climb somewhere in the winter.
Btw- any idea what happend to this guy. I wasn't there that night. How the hell do you put your harness on backwards!??!
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peeps
Dec 24, 2005, 9:48 PM
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This is the exact reason why the gym where I climb (Earth Treks in Maryland) got rid of any autobelays...they were finding that too many people were being stupid and not checking their knots, harnesses, etc. They actually force someone to have a real person as a belay partner, and to also encourage double checking (by the belayer and by the climber) of knots, etc. to make sure everything else is the way it's supposed to be before anyone gets on the wall.
And the staff will walk around and make sure people are belaying correctly, etc.
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roseraie
Dec 24, 2005, 9:57 PM
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It's a GUY and HE had his harness on backwards? Wouldn't that be seriously painful? And wouldn't it be really difficult to double the buckles back when they're behind you?
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sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 10:01 PM
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In reply to: It's a GUY and HE had his harness on backwards? Wouldn't that be seriously painful? And wouldn't it be really difficult to double the buckles back when they're behind you?
Many harnesses (Petzl in particular) don't require you to double back.
I worked many years at a wall with Petzl harnesses (don't remember the exact model), and was quite amazed at how some people would try to put them on (sometimes impatiently before the training class had started, sometimes after being told how to do it properly) :roll:
....including backwards, and around the shoulders. It could be quite amusing to watch. Needless to say, they weren't allowed near the wall before the harness was on properly though.
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happiegrrrl
Dec 24, 2005, 11:34 PM
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In reply to: .....Evidently some feminazi b---- got jealous and complained.
wow.
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sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: Evidently some feminazi.... |
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dirtineye
Dec 25, 2005, 12:02 AM
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Not to join on this off topic crap whole-heartedly, but I beleive hte word he was looking for is prude or bluenose.
I once knew a woman, married wiht a kid even, who truly felt, and woudl tell you right up front, that men should wear a T-shirt under thier dress shirt, because she didn;lt like to see the men;s nipples showing though hte regular shirt.
You really can't make this stuff up.
Back on topic, harness on backwards, that's good. Takes talent. That guy probably won't do it again though. You have to wonder what he thought about the buckles. I see a run on safetech harnesses by gyms, hahahahahahahaahaha.
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nevenneve
Dec 25, 2005, 2:46 AM
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Not to start a rant on the senselessness of the overly urbane and just plain lacking in common sense that make waivers make sense but, this guy obviously was NOT checked out to belay yet. I would wager a guess he was properly clipped into the auto-belay and had been given binding instructions as to his behavior as far as you can go without insulting the average person. I would have to equate the fact that some random person is not stopped by anyone in the gym within the short amount of time it took to walk from the locker room to the wall as a decent comparison to a kid at daycare tying his shoelaces to the fire pole on the playground and seeing how many times he can spin on the way down. The average person enjoying them self is paying more attention to the hazards of playing than someone tying their shoes or standing on the ground clipping in. These are some rather large suppositions to make about the actual accident, admittedly. In a perfect world most people would have no scars if someone had been able to stop them from anything remotely dangerous they are about to have missteps in. The teacher didn't catch the error till someone was flat on their ass. I hope he doesn't sue the gym for his misuse of or faulty equipment. This kind of incident is why most where I climb have no qualms about rectifying a safety issue even if it means involving employee's to back up what remains necessary for a safe environment. In earnest, it has little effect on me when the staff of a gym is doing a proper job, until they start standing over me to ensure I can tie my shoes.
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chalkfree
Dec 25, 2005, 2:57 AM
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At the VE in warrenville do they go over the auto belay clip in before a climber is allowed to climb?
That would have been the point where the staff would have caught it. So either this guy had been there before or was screwing around before the staff got to him.
As for blaming the staff, back off. Most wall staffs are busy, even at a wall with only five ropes in it it can be extremely difficult for one manager to keep an eye on all the newbs.
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rgbscan
Dec 25, 2005, 4:16 AM
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In reply to: At the VE in warrenville do they go over the auto belay clip in before a climber is allowed to climb? That would have been the point where the staff would have caught it. So either this guy had been there before or was screwing around before the staff got to him. As for blaming the staff, back off. Most wall staffs are busy, even at a wall with only five ropes in it it can be extremely difficult for one manager to keep an eye on all the newbs.
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. I know at ours (St. Paul) on your first visit you have to fill out the waivers and go through a brief orientation. A staff member walks you thru putting on your gear, double checking each other, and shows you how to clip in to the auto belay and then has you climb up a few feet and fall to show you how they work. Birthday parties have a dedicated staff person with them at all times. I've brought pretty much all my non climber friends to VE at least once each and they all got the same briefing I just mentioned.
On subsequent visits they don't check you out. If you take the belay check-out test they will grill you on basic safety but in-between that first visit orientation and the time you check out to belay you are left to your own devices. I guess something could happen in here. Too bad no-one caught it. I've corrected a few people I've run into at VE who haven't doubled back on their harness or who clip in wrong to the auto belays but I've never heard of something like this.
Chris
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csgambill
Dec 25, 2005, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Evidently some feminazi.... I thought Rush Limbaugh was the only person who ever used the word 'feminazi' :?
Well, I guess there's no question where my political affiliations lie. :-)
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boardline22
Dec 25, 2005, 4:45 AM
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then first time I went to VE they asked us if I knew what I was doing, and I said yes and showed them and everything was good, even got our belay tags. I saw kids and newbs being shown how to use autobelays and what not all the time by the staff, I personally have no idea how this could happen. Like I previous metioned that it was his own harness he was using, not the gym's. I also do not know if he is a regular ether since I go to this gym 1 every 2 months.
I wasn't upset about him being hurt I was upset when the staff pulled me off a route and closed the section of the wall. I told my pops who is a nonclimber and he was furious that I showed no sympathy and I veiwed it as natural selection
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csgambill
Dec 25, 2005, 5:00 AM
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At the VE in Warrenville they do have an orientation with each climber during which they cover the proper use of the auto belays. They do tell you how to correctly clip the biners to your harness. ...Clipping into your gear loop... come on that's something you snicker at while looking at the instruction manual of your new harness. I guess with so many people in the world there are bound to be those whose brains function at a somewhat sub-par level.
In regards to my earlier post, I apologize for my profanity, [edit] although not for my feminazi comment[/edit], I usually shy away from that, but I've got a nasty cold and just plain don't feel well, and I needed to vent. I'm also really disappointed that I can no longer go to the gym and proudly display my nipples. It's almost as difficult for me to believe that someone would complain about guys taking their shirts off as it is for me to believe that someone would put their harness on backwards and clip into their gear loop. $5 says this guy was just messing around and ended up hurting himself. Better in the gym where he can get quick medical attention than outside somewhere where the problem could be a lot worse.
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majid_sabet
Dec 25, 2005, 8:09 PM
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This is common problem when no one supervises the new climber (Even hi mileage ones make fatal mistakes). If you take an average Joe of the street and asked them to put a harness on and clip a belay device, they will have it backward.
Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it.
There is a new article in ROCK AND ICE magazine, Jan 2006 issue, which covers some of the common mistakes during belay.
Check your system every time.
peace
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rgbscan
Dec 25, 2005, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: This is common problem when no one supervises the new climber (Even hi mileage ones make fatal mistakes). If you take an average Joe of the street and asked them to put a harness on and clip a belay device, they will have it backward.
I should point out that VE (St. Paul's) rental harnesses are diaper style with only a single tie in point and not a single gear loop. As mentioned above the victim in this case had brought in an outside harness. I would imagine that they would bear some responsibility for knowing how to operate their own equipment.
Just my .02 cents. But I do hate to see VE take all of the blame for this.
Chris
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boardline22
Dec 27, 2005, 10:02 PM
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VE shouldn't have to take any blame for dumb asses (sp)
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plund
Dec 27, 2005, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it.
Not the "victim's" fault? At all??? Isn't he the one to whom the instruction was given? Or did you mean "giving the instruction", ie. the staff? Seems to me the ultimate victim is gonna be the owner of the facility...Gotta call BS on ya on this one, majid....it seems whatever way the consensus is running (in reference to a mess of your past injury-related posts) you oppose it....if the mob says "Belayer", you say "climber"....if the consensus is "operator error", you blame equipment. This guy was a dumbass, plain & simple....true, perhaps he should have been more closely monitored (don't know if he was a 1st-timer, etc.) but jeez, if you have a question ASK, especially considering the consequences.
All that said, I hope he recovers....and tries a different activity, like fingerpainting...although, if he gets paint in his eye, is it the manufacturer's fault?
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majid_sabet
Dec 27, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it. Not the "victim's" fault? At all??? Isn't he the one to whom the instruction was given? Or did you mean "giving the instruction", ie. the staff? Seems to me the ultimate victim is gonna be the owner of the facility...Gotta call BS on ya on this one, majid....it seems whatever way the consensus is running (in reference to a mess of your past injury-related posts) you oppose it....if the mob says "Belayer", you say "climber"....if the consensus is "operator error", you blame equipment. This guy was a dumbass, plain & simple....true, perhaps he should have been more closely monitored (don't know if he was a 1st-timer, etc.) but jeez, if you have a question ASK, especially considering the consequences. All that said, I hope he recovers....and tries a different activity, like fingerpainting...although, if he gets paint in his eye, is it the manufacturer's fault?
Climbers with bad attitudes are more dangerous than a kid who put his harness backward. I guess you never fell when you were riding your first bicycle.
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jakedatc
Dec 28, 2005, 2:32 AM
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I hope the kid recovers ok... and luckily gets another chance to do things the right way....
I shall now join the masses in killfiling Majid.. wow guy.. no where in the OP was there any mention of any lessons, class, instruction at all from the staff.. If he brought his own harness and was going to use the auto belay he should have probably known how to put it on correctly (really not sure how to pull the buckles tight backwards) ALSO if he did take a class and was instructed properly then it's his own damn fault that he did not replicate those instructions to tie in correctly
If the guy did not know how to put his harness on he should have ASKED.
I'm a huge advocate of taking personal responsibility for your own actions. If you need to someone to hold your hand then ask for it
Majid.. you probly fell off your bike first try right? do you think it's right to blame your brother, sister, parent whoever.. that taught you to pedal and balance etc when you failed.. i bet you did.. but most people sack up, dust themselves off and try to practice what the people taught them until they get it right.. and practice in a driveway, yard, parking lot (like putting your harness on at home, gym instructions in hand) before heading out on to a main road by yourself (like getting on a wall with no supervision)
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j_ung
Dec 28, 2005, 3:04 AM
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I hope the guy's OK.
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boardline22
Dec 28, 2005, 4:43 AM
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j_ung, the emts came and brought im to the hospital, and the staff found out later that his ankle was badly broken and he ws complaining of back pains
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redhairedpixie
Dec 28, 2005, 3:59 PM
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Firstly hope the guy recovers soon.
Secondly I assume auto belay is the same as the British "self belay" device. Work of the devil, involves throwing yourself backwards when at the top? :evil: horrible things only time I have ever freaked out up til now on one of those things <>
Well, I'm a relative noob to climbing , only 5 months and even I can't fathom out how you'd put your harness on backwards :roll: I always climb with someone more experienced, and they double check me all the time.....but if I wasn't sure I'd ask!
Never been to the gym in question (obviously), but would imagine its similar to Rockcity in Hull. we just sign to say we understand what a figure of eight is, that we know how to belay etc....noone ever checks. But then again I wouldn't blame the staff if I did it wrong
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plund
Dec 28, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it. Not the "victim's" fault? At all??? Isn't he the one to whom the instruction was given? Or did you mean "giving the instruction", ie. the staff? Seems to me the ultimate victim is gonna be the owner of the facility...Gotta call BS on ya on this one, majid....it seems whatever way the consensus is running (in reference to a mess of your past injury-related posts) you oppose it....if the mob says "Belayer", you say "climber"....if the consensus is "operator error", you blame equipment. This guy was a dumbass, plain & simple....true, perhaps he should have been more closely monitored (don't know if he was a 1st-timer, etc.) but jeez, if you have a question ASK, especially considering the consequences. All that said, I hope he recovers....and tries a different activity, like fingerpainting...although, if he gets paint in his eye, is it the manufacturer's fault? Climbers with bad attitudes are more dangerous than a kid who put his harness backward. I guess you never fell when you were riding your first bicycle.
I guess I did....but that's not really the same as climbing now, is it? YOur near-morbid fascination with any & all accidents is quite the attitude as well, big guy...answer me this - how do you manage to have your nose in the air AND your head up your ass at the same time?? Inquiring minds want to know.....
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majid_sabet
Dec 28, 2005, 7:26 PM
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Red Point Maniac
Location: Oakdale, MN
200 posts added
since 06 Mar 2003
Post Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top
Holy crap....sorry I suggested professional instruction...my climbing resume is not much but I can build a bomber anchor...just saying good instruction is worth it....good luck & have fun....
....................................................
Out of your 200 posted professional instruction, I found one that was worth some thing, so just work on your resume .
Majid
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climbsomething
Dec 28, 2005, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: I wasn't upset about him being hurt I was upset when the staff pulled me off a route and closed the section of the wall. I told my pops who is a nonclimber and he was furious that I showed no sympathy and I veiwed it as natural selection
And when you get to high school (assuming you don't live in Kansas) and learn what "natural selection" is maybe you'll come up with a better schoolyard diss.
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jakedatc
Dec 28, 2005, 7:57 PM
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i agree with Hil... board it's common practice to clear an area when an injury occurs so the medical staff has room to work and everyone's not crowding around...
Majid.. in your 242 posts you have contributed absolutely nothing to this board.. not to mention your last makes absolutely no fucking sense
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colkurtz
Dec 28, 2005, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I wasn't upset about him being hurt I was upset when the staff pulled me off a route and closed the section of the wall. I told my pops who is a nonclimber and he was furious that I showed no sympathy and I veiwed it as natural selection I'd be annoyed too, if I found out I raised a dumbass self-centered kid without a trace of compassion. And when you get to high school (assuming you don't live in Kansas) and learn what "natural selection" is maybe you'll come up with a better schoolyard diss.
I'd be annoyed if my kid grew up to be a regular rc.com contributor.
wish i understood this whole natural selection thing though.
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plund
Dec 28, 2005, 8:43 PM
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****edited...changed my mind about wasting any more time on this****
Ahhhh....nothing better than an online pissing match!!!
majid, I sincerely hope you're less of a jackass in reality....it's easy to pop off online, ain't it?
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zozo
Dec 28, 2005, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: I'd be annoyed if my kid grew up to be a regular rc.com contributor.
Whoa!! Take it easy there dude. Im sure she did'nt mean anything by it. Damn, note to self, don't piss this guy off!!
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tradrenn
Dec 29, 2005, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: ****edited...changed my mind about wasting any more time on this**** Ahhhh....nothing better than an online pissing match!!! majid, I sincerely hope you're less of a jackass in reality....it's easy to pop off online, ain't it?
Did you just describe yourself ?
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majid_sabet
Dec 29, 2005, 6:47 AM
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In reply to: ****edited...changed my mind about wasting any more time on this**** Ahhhh....nothing better than an online pissing match!!! majid, I sincerely hope you're less of a jackass in reality....it's easy to pop off online, ain't it?
There is no point of arguing, I am sure most us when looked like a dumb ass learning our first figure 8 and trying to rig the first anchor. There may be some people who may have other problems in life that makes them slow in learning, we still have to be nice to them, we cannot just call them dumb Asses just because they are not like us with experience.
So they still deserve respect even if they hurt themselves doing none sense or mistakes.
Peace.
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jimdavis
Dec 29, 2005, 7:30 AM
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In reply to: VE shouldn't have to take any blame for dumb asses (sp)
I don't think so. I myself work at a gym, and strongly feel that the gym is at fault, to some extent.
I usually supervise 9 ropes, and a 12'x15' bouldering wall...moving pads under climbers, checking belays, giving belay tests, giving new orientation procedures, etc...it's me and 1 other person doing this.
This is the job you have paid staff doing!
Christ, anyone that looked at that guy from any direction could tell something was up, he had a friggin belay loop in the back! No one, staff or non-staff, approached this guy and you can bet he fumbled with his harness for a while before he got it on.
He was evidently new, had no idea what he was doing, had not been check out with any staff...and just walked up and clipped into a gear loop. You have to have policies and safety checks in place to prevent this.
Every now and then, someone will slip through with their own gear, and look like they have an idea of what they're doing....that's why I look at evey biner, and every buckle on every harness, i look at the tie-in on the climber, how confident and attentive the belayer is, etc. It doesn't take long, and it's not hard....you just have to do it.
No one did...the gym deserves what they get. Hopefully gyms with inadaquate safety measures will step it up some now, so this doesn't happen again.
Did i actually read that the guy fell 5 feet and broke his ankle? They have a concrette floor or something??? Talk about unlucky.
Cheers,
Jim
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bear
Dec 29, 2005, 9:55 PM
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Should I blame my trad climbing instructor when I take a bad fall my next time out after failing to place a cam properly? Should I blame my ceramics teacher when my off-center pot collapses and spews clay everywhere? In either case, I have recieved instruction, and still managed not to follow it. There's no reason to blame the instructor because I didn't follow directions.
It is the climber's responsibility to climb safely. Unless a VE staff member specifically instructed him incorrectly or okayed an incorrect use of equipment, VE did not fail to provide a safe climbing environment; the climber failed to use his equipment properly. Whether we'll ever learn the details is a question for the future.
Getting off my "accepting personal responsibility" soapbox now...
VE has 9"-12" of chipped rubber throughout; I'm guessing that the original poster just saw the last part of the fall, and was likely prompted by the sound of the auto-belay finishing its ascent.
If I recall correctly, there are even signs at the auto-belays suggesting that climbers have someone double-check that they are tied in correctly. I haven't been in months, so this may have changed. Climbing is inherently dangerous; failure to use equipment properly may result in serious injury, or worse.
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plund
Dec 30, 2005, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ****edited...changed my mind about wasting any more time on this**** Ahhhh....nothing better than an online pissing match!!! majid, I sincerely hope you're less of a jackass in reality....it's easy to pop off online, ain't it? Did you just describe yourself ?
Probably...can't thank you enough for all the time...
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gonz
Dec 30, 2005, 11:15 PM
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It's amazing to see all these responses from a bunch of assclowns who have no idea what they're talking about.
The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb.
VE in Chicago is within a Lifetime Fitness. 90% of the members at Lifetime are a bunch of whiney bitches who think they're entitled to everything and that the world revolves around them. So it's a fairly safe bet that this joker just waltzed right in and thought he could just clip in and start climbing. If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. Unless of course your gym is the size of a closet.
And as far as not being able to climb with your shirt off, you've got to be joking right? BFD. Are you so vain that you think it's important to be able to show off your ribs? Or wait, let me guess, that tank top is just way too restrictive and gets in your way. STFU and just climb and have fun.
So there :!:
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jimdavis
Dec 31, 2005, 5:40 AM
Post #39 of 86
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In reply to: It's amazing to see all these responses from a bunch of assclowns who have no idea what they're talking about. The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. VE in Chicago is within a Lifetime Fitness. 90% of the members at Lifetime are a bunch of whiney b---- who think they're entitled to everything and that the world revolves around them. So it's a fairly safe bet that this joker just waltzed right in and thought he could just clip in and start climbing. If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. Unless of course your gym is the size of a closet.
Worthless.
In reply to: The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb.
If any staff lets someone in, lets them put on their harness, and clip in with their harness on backwards and climb...they're incompetent.
So you wanna convince all of us that a gym that can't control who gets in and who climbs there is the best in the world? :lol: :lol: :lol:
And they use an autobelay sytem? For their "top notch" instruction?
The guy hit a floor from 5 feet up and hurt himself? So you've got inattentive staff, on a autobelay setup, over a hard floor? And you think they're "top notch"?
Sounds like the worst gym I've heard of, yet.
In reply to: If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive.
Policies must not have been explained, he was never checked out, and no one took a second look at him. The gym is at fault, and they know it.
Jim
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tdk
Dec 31, 2005, 7:13 AM
Post #40 of 86
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In reply to: The gym is at fault, and they know it.
Please.
You’re not omniscient, and you know it.
Absolutly no personal responsibility necessary.
It’s the fast food restaurant’s fault because I’m too fat.
The bar is responsible for my DUI because they served me.
The bicycle helmet manufacturer is responsible for my head injury because I didn’t put it on.
Look at the civil court system and you can gag on that kind of nonsense all you want.
Let’s take this one step further. Why don’t you just climb for the guy, and he can stay home on the couch. Ooops! Now it’s your fault because he needs bypass surgery from being inactive.
It’s the climbers fault.
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mowz
Dec 31, 2005, 7:41 AM
Post #41 of 86
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In reply to: And as far as not being able to climb with your shirt off, you've got to be joking right? BFD. Are you so vain that you think it's important to be able to show off your ribs? Or wait, let me guess, that tank top is just way too restrictive and gets in your way. STFU and just climb and have fun.
Sometimes it's not about vanity. Sometimes, it's about sweat and having a clean, dry shirt to wear on the drive home. Sometimes, it's also about being able to cool down. If it's anywhere near 75 at the top and it was a moderate route, I'm sweating my balls off. I would like to climb without a shirt so that I don't get so warm.
The next time you're doing yard work, or anything physically taxing, and it's warm outside, I want you to think about your post. The next time you're at the beach and you want to take your top off because it's hot, think about what you posted.
Now, you STFU!!!!!!!
WTF is a BFD? You? A big fucking dumbass?
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gonz
Dec 31, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #42 of 86
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Hey Jim, reading comprehension isn't one of your strong suits is it?
It's already been mentioned within this thread that the floor of that facility is made up out of recycled rubber, anywhere from 9-12" thick. So no, that's not a hard floor.
Also, the original poster mentioned that by the time he looked over the guy was only five feet off the ground. However it's been mentioned that he feel from much higher up.
And where has anyone said that the staff knowingly let this guy in? Or trained him on how to use the autobelay?
Overall, if you are blindly criticizing the gym and making assumptions about the equipment, training or facility, you're simply showing your ass and how little you really know about the climbing industry. Just so you know, the gentleman who owns VE is responsible for a majority of the safety procedures and guidelines that are standard accross the climbing gym industry. He also was fundamental in setting standards for climbing wall construction in regards to engineering, materials, workmanship and safety.
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gonz
Dec 31, 2005, 3:56 PM
Post #43 of 86
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In reply to: WTF is a BFD?
Big Fucking Deal. Now eat me. :lol:
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mowz
Dec 31, 2005, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: WTF is a BFD? Big f---ing Deal. Now eat me. :lol:
I don't eat shit.
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csgambill
Dec 31, 2005, 8:29 PM
Post #45 of 86
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Hell, all I know is that as a paying member of that gym I want to be able to climb with my shirt off. I would love to talk to (or meet in a dark alley) the assmonkey(s) who have made my climbing days a little less pleasant. Thank you, whoever you are. Your complaints have certianly made the world a better place. If you're a mom trying to shelter her kids, you've done them a great service in hiding the fact that, yes, even men have nipples. If you are, as I so eloquently described in my prior post, some feminazi bitch, why don't you just try taking your shirt off too? Betty Friedan would be proud. Finally if you're a guy and you complained about this, now that's just plain weird.
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gonz
Dec 31, 2005, 9:27 PM
Post #46 of 86
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Just for the record, I don't care if folks climb with their shirts on or off. But just take a second to think about where you are at. Lifetime Fitness is a high class upper end establishment, with all kinds of prissy bitches and CEO types that prefer a clean sterile environment. Unfortunately for climbers that means that if they enforce the shirt wearing rule everywhere else in that club, the same applies for the climbing wall. Climbing walls are not a large enough source of revenue for Lifetime that they wouldn't think twice about enforcing all kinds of absurd rules, so having to wear a shirt or tank top is not the end of the world.
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raingod
Dec 31, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #47 of 86
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In reply to: It's amazing to see all these responses from a bunch of assclowns who have no idea what they're talking about. The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. VE in Chicago is within a Lifetime Fitness. 90% of the members at Lifetime are a bunch of whiney b---- who think they're entitled to everything and that the world revolves around them. So it's a fairly safe bet that this joker just waltzed right in and thought he could just clip in and start climbing. If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. Unless of course your gym is the size of a closet. :!:
Most gyms I've been to have some form of entrance so the staff can see who is waltzing in. Then they have some form of belay card/membership card so the staff can tell who has been properly orientated etc...
This does not cancel out the need for personal responsibility of the person who had the accident, if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't just assume you can figure it out
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csgambill
Dec 31, 2005, 10:31 PM
Post #48 of 86
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In reply to: Just for the record, I don't care if folks climb with their shirts on or off. But just take a second to think about where you are at. Lifetime Fitness is a high class upper end establishment, with all kinds of prissy b---- and CEO types that prefer a clean sterile environment. Unfortunately for climbers that means that if they enforce the shirt wearing rule everywhere else in that club, the same applies for the climbing wall. Climbing walls are not a large enough source of revenue for Lifetime that they wouldn't think twice about enforcing all kinds of absurd rules, so having to wear a shirt or tank top is not the end of the world.
Hey buddy, if you looked at my profile you may notice that I'm one of those executive types. Personally I don't care what my peers think of climbers taking their shirts off. Not to mention your obviously ignorant of the fact that this is not Lifetime's rule, but VE's rule. If I can't climb wearing what I choose or choose not to wear I may have to either:
A. Climb somewhere else... thereby leaving behind all my buddies and an otherwise great gym.
B. Build my own climbing gym across the street... If you've ever seen the movie Dodge Ball you know how this could turn out, although I have much better relationships with banks than the poor dude in that movie.
C. Bitch until the rule gets changed back to the way I like it... As you can tell I've chosen this option.
So Mr. ja sure you betcha Minnesota man, take that and go cleanse yourself in the waters of lake Minnetonka! Nah, I love MN. I actually matriculated at St. Olaf College down in Northfield.
I'm getting really sick of this thread. It needs to die.
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gonz
Dec 31, 2005, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: Not to mention your obviously ignorant of the fact that this is not Lifetime's rule, but VE's rule.
Yeah, what would I know, I only used to work for VE, am good freinds with the owner and manager of all three gyms, and helped build the place, as well as about 75% of all the other lifetime walls out there. VE is within the Lifetime Fitness, and one of the things they can do as a result is ask VE to have a rule, just like everywhere else under the roof, that members must be properly attired while working out, which includes climbing.
And don't feel like you're alone, my wife and I also fall under the stereotype of "Fancy Lady Doctor/CEO Rich Boy", we just choose not to endorse it and let those who take the time to get to know us choose whether or not we're assholes.
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reno
Jan 1, 2006, 1:16 AM
Post #50 of 86
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In reply to: It’s the fast food restaurant’s fault because I’m too fat.
This has been argued in court. As of yet, the plantiff hasn't won. Yet.
In reply to: The bar is responsible for my DUI because they served me.
This has been argued... and WON... in court. Worse, there have been cases where the patron got smashed at one bar, went to another bar and had one drink, then got the DUI. The second bar was liable, and paid a ton of money.
In reply to: The bicycle helmet manufacturer is responsible for my head injury because I didn’t put it on.
If you change this to "because they didn't instruct me on how to properly apply the helmet," then you've got a good case.
If you don't want to accept that the gym has a measure of culpability, that's your lookout. But they do have a duty, and from what I've read, it sounds like they failed in that duty.
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rgbscan
Jan 1, 2006, 1:16 AM
Post #51 of 86
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In reply to: In reply to: It's amazing to see all these responses from a bunch of assclowns who have no idea what they're talking about. The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. VE in Chicago is within a Lifetime Fitness. 90% of the members at Lifetime are a bunch of whiney b---- who think they're entitled to everything and that the world revolves around them. So it's a fairly safe bet that this joker just waltzed right in and thought he could just clip in and start climbing. If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. Unless of course your gym is the size of a closet. :roll: Worthless. In reply to: The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. You can't be serious. Doesn't have anything to do with a staff member not paying attention? Are you joking!?!? If any staff lets someone in, lets them put on their harness, and clip in with their harness on backwards and climb...they're incompetent. So you wanna convince all of us that a gym that can't control who gets in and who climbs there is the best in the world? :lol: :lol: :lol: And they use an autobelay sytem? For their "top notch" instruction? The guy hit a floor from 5 feet up and hurt himself? So you've got inattentive staff, on a autobelay setup, over a hard floor? And you think they're "top notch"? Sounds like the worst gym I've heard of, yet. In reply to: If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. If your doing your job, this guy shouldn't have gotten through the door, got his harness on, then allowed to climb without someone stepping in and saying something. I stopped plenty of people about to do dumb things before they happened (harnesses not double backed, biners not locked, clipped in through a gear loop) and I've been doing it for 4 years now. And no, that wouldn't have happened in any gym I work at. Policies must not have been explained, he was never checked out, and no one took a second look at him. The gym is at fault, and they know it. Jim
VE has autobelays, tr's, and bolted sport routes scattered throughout the gym. As stated above (twice) all new climbers to the facility take an orientation on the autobelay setup. They are show how to clip in, are shown what they can and cannot climb, do a sample climb, and take a fall then sign off that they understand. Just about every autobelay route also has a photo and printed description on how to clip in at the base along with the route grade. They cannot use anything *but* the autobelay's until they have tested out to TR and then tested again to lead.
At the very minimum the victim of this accident was given instruction on how to properly use the autobelay system, otherwise they would not have been admitted into the facility. Its a good bet they were also on a climb where a photo was provided on how to properly clip in, the harness that was brought in from the outside probably also included documentation on how to properly tie in.
As also stated above the gym floor is 9-12 inches of chipped rubber covering the floor. The bouldering caves have 6 inch thick foam padding as flooring, and you use a standard crash pad on top of that.
With a large number of people in the gym, theres never going to be a 1:1 ratio of staff to climbers. It's a gym, not a babysitting service.
Chris
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boardline22
Jan 1, 2006, 7:12 AM
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the guy fell at least 35-40 feet i heard, i just saw the last 5 feet of the fall
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:23 AM
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In reply to: And where has anyone said that the staff knowingly let this guy in? Or trained him on how to use the autobelay?
Your missing the point here...the guy got in! So either the staff let him or didn't do their friggin' job and he got in anyway....either way it, it's the staff's problem now.
In reply to: Overall, if you are blindly criticizing the gym and making assumptions about the equipment, training or facility, you're simply showing your ass and how little you really know about the climbing industry. Just so you know, the gentleman who owns VE is responsible for a majority of the safety procedures and guidelines that are standard accross the climbing gym industry. He also was fundamental in setting standards for climbing wall construction in regards to engineering, materials, workmanship and safety.
You can think whatever you like about my knowledge of the industry. I can bet I know quite a bit more than you think, though.
So why don't you tell us who this owner was, and what he's setup in the indoor-climbing industry? Go ahead. Enlighten us.
I can tell you my gym was setup by Jon Tierney. Former Technical Review member of the AMGA, author of the AMGA TRSM course, and the guy who brought the place up to AMGA accreditation. Wanna guess how many programs and gym get through that process? Good luck trying to tell me that VE's "procedures and guidelines" are better, or whatever your trying to convince us all of.
I could really care less who owns the gym, or set it up. The guys working the gym fucked up and didn't do their job. They should have stopped him long before he made it off the ground.
In reply to: Also, the original poster mentioned that by the time he looked over the guy was only five feet off the ground. However it's been mentioned that he feel from much higher up.
So someone saw the guy climbing with his harness on backwards, clipped into his gear loop... and didn't do shit about it? Is that what your saying then.
As for my reading comprehension...I scanned the first post, saw enough to make my decision, and posted accordingly.
Multiple things went wrong, and the workers of the gym could have prevented this from happening. Thus the gym is at fault, and they know it...you can bet they'll change their policies and possibly staff as a result of this incident. Whether they are held responsible in court...who knows.
If some guy walks up your front steps, falls, and can sue you for injuries from the fall....yea, this guy can take the gym to the cleaners.
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:36 AM
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In reply to: At the very minimum the victim of this accident was given instruction on how to properly use the autobelay system, otherwise they would not have been admitted into the facility. Its a good bet they were also on a climb where a photo was provided on how to properly clip in, the harness that was brought in from the outside probably also included documentation on how to properly tie in.
So the gym approved some guy to climb in their gym, who couldn't put their own harness on correctly, and who didn't have to get checked out by staff before he started climbing? They knew he was in there, and didn't check him out? Sounds like they have some GREAT policies!
In reply to: With a large number of people in the gym, theres never going to be a 1:1 ratio of staff to climbers. It's a gym, not a babysitting service.
You don't need a 1:1 ratio. Considering that climbers climb in pairs, direct supervision over belays would be 1:2. AND lets not forget that you can check over climbers pretty quickly when you know what your doing. It takes me less than 5 seconds to check over a pair of climbers on each rope. Some times people might get off the ground before you can visually check them over, before each climb...but they never get above bouldering height without a visual check from myself and usually another staff person.
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: It’s the fast food restaurant’s fault because I’m too fat. This has been argued in court. As of yet, the plantiff hasn't won. Yet. In reply to: The bar is responsible for my DUI because they served me. This has been argued... and WON... in court. Worse, there have been cases where the patron got smashed at one bar, went to another bar and had one drink, then got the DUI. The second bar was liable, and paid a ton of money. In reply to: The bicycle helmet manufacturer is responsible for my head injury because I didn’t put it on. If you change this to "because they didn't instruct me on how to properly apply the helmet," then you've got a good case. If you don't want to accept that the gym has a measure of culpability, that's your lookout. But they do have a duty, and from what I've read, it sounds like they failed in that duty.
Agreed! Thanks Reno!
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organic
Jan 1, 2006, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: What a f---ing loser. Now we'll all probably have to go through a safety class so the staff can make sure we all know how to put our harnesses on correctly. They just instituted a rule that we (guys) have to wear our shirts all the time. Evidently some feminazi b---- got jealous and complained. Although I liked the no-topropes in the area around the bouldering cave. It kept away all the little kids and forced me to climb harder. ...Especially when I wasn't wearing a shirt. oh well, what can you do. Have to climb somewhere in the winter. Btw- any idea what happend to this guy. I wasn't there that night. How the hell do you put your harness on backwards!??!
People like you are so funny. "I climb 5.9 and have a tummy and it is 60 degrees in this mofo and 30 degrees outside but for some reason i need to take off my shirt."
The reason they probably instated the keep your shirt on rule besides ya'll being so fugly is because ya'll probably stink also.
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alanthong
Jan 1, 2006, 7:40 PM
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I regularly climb at this VE location and have mixed opinions on the safety procedures followed by the staff.
On one hand, even on very busy evenings or weekends at the gym, I haven't been given a wristband to indicate that I've paid the entrance fee and have a waiver on file. Even though the front desk is right by the entrance, I've noticed how easy it would be for me to not pay and or check in at certain times. If they can't enforce entrance to the gym effectively, how can they check if harnesses are on correctly?
Belay and Sport Lead "Certifications" are denoted with tags attached to harnesses, but for a over a year, I belayed without displaying such a tag and was never questioned by the staff. Perhaps bringing your own gear makes you appear to be competent as in he case of this accident.
On the other hand, I have to stick up for the staff there. At times, the gym can be very busy, and when I have brought other newbie climbers to the gym, I've been impressed with the consistency and quality of instruction for the auto belays and top rope systems.
This is a large gym and the whole climbing area cannot be constantly patrolled by the staff. Climbers should not have to have their harnesses checked by a staff member every time they climb. If climbers don't practice and maintain their BASIC skills, it's their OWN fault when they hurt themselves.
Anyways, I hate to see this kind of accident happen at one of the largest and best climbing gyms in the area...one that's largely devoid of outdoor climbing.
Oh and not that this is a solution, but I personally use a Metolius Safe Tech Harnesses which has rated gear loops (http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/harnesses.htm). Most accidents...esp. outside of the gym involve a cascade of failures that can be stopped at any number of points...including making equipment idiot proof at a relatively marginal cost.
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escalabrasil
Jan 1, 2006, 8:01 PM
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I used to work at a gym in Houston, TX, which was abviously oriented toward the more inexperienced, birthday party crowd (seeing as it was in Houston, TX). People had to fill out a waiver, which most of them didnt bother to look at, and then each person had to successfully belay another climber up and down before they were allowed to do it on their own, and even then, the staff constantly walked up and down the gym, making sure everyone was doing it correctly.
Interestingly enough, we ended up getting some of the most pissed off customers ever because of this. These people were so obnoxious that they felt like that much supervision was a waste of time and an attack on their intelligence, or whatever. We always had to find the right balance between making sure they were safe and not offending them because they were stupid, or just too uncoordinated to learn how to belay first try.
Anyway, I had a point when I satrted writing this, but now Im just getting angry at all those people again, so I guess thats all.....
Just dont blame the staff without knowing all the facts. Gyms are a weird business...
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majid_sabet
Jan 2, 2006, 12:31 AM
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Let me refresh your momories
read all 5 parts.
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp
BEFORE HE STRAPPED ON HIS crampons, Pete Ro signed two liability waivers releasing Jeff Lowe and San Juan Mountain Guides from responsibility if he were injured or killed during the seminar. How, then, can his widow sue? Because as powerful as they are, liability waivers cannot (and should not) prevent people from seeking relief when their guides have behaved with gross negligence, which the law defines as "willful and wanton" actions that indicate a high degree of recklessness.
Gross negligence is a pretty high bar to clear, so the first move by Ro's lawyer has been to try to get the liability waivers thrown out of court, in which case he'll only have to prove that Lowe acted with simple negligence—that is, the failure to use ordinary care. (If negligence is overlooking a client's frayed harness, gross negligence is getting drunk and waving a loaded .44 around the campfire.) To do that, he'll likely take direct aim at the very nature of release forms.
These forms were generally toothless until the early 1980s, when the words "fully cognizant" turned things around. The more a client knew about the dangers he faced going in, the better the release fared in court. "I get awful picky when I draw up releases," says Jim McCarthy, 69, a Wyoming attorney and former president of the American Alpine Club who often represents guides and guide services. "I want clients to initial the four or five key paragraphs so later when they say, 'Oh, they stuck the form under my nose but I didn't read it,' you've got their initials there in six different places."
Did Pete Ro correctly sign his release? Jeff Lowe's attorney, Denver lawyer Monty Barnett, thinks so. Ro signed the first release two months before the seminar and the second the day before he died. (On Barnett's advice, Lowe declined to comment for this article.) Hiroko Ro's attorney, San Francisco lawyer Walter Walker, disagrees. In pretrial documents, Walker describes the two releases as "a mishmash of exonerations that are clear to no one" and claims that Ro signed the second release under duress. Since he had spent a lot of money and time to get to the ice-climbing school, the argument goes, he basically had to sign whatever was put in front of him to experience his vacation.
"San Juan Mountain Guides [had] Mr. Ro in a box when he arrived in Ouray," Walker argues in court papers. "Where else was he, a resident of Japan, going to go? How was he going to find another masters seminar?"
If the release holds, Walker will be forced to press on with the difficult task of proving that Lowe—one of the world's most respected ice-climbers—behaved with gross negligence. He claims that Lowe crossed this line when he assumed the role of go-between for Ro and Lucy Creamer. The reason? Lowe's bronchitis impeded his ability to help when he saw trouble. "Lowe knowingly and voluntarily chose to take on this safety role in his incapacitated condition," asserts Walker. This decision, he claims, constitutes "willful and wanton negligence."
Barnett scoffs at this argument. "The allegation about Jeff Lowe's voice is a red herring," he counters. "That had nothing to do with the accident, period. There is absolutely no negligence, even if we didn't have a release."
Lowe, however, may also be a victim of bad timing. In recent years two equal and opposing ideas have percolated through separate state court systems. One—call it the Wyoming Principle, after the state whose judges have upheld it—holds that instructor misjudgment is part of the inherent risk of any outdoor activity. The other—call it the California Principle, because it's gathering steam in that trend-setting state—maintains that an instructor bears a heightened duty to protect his students from harm. Those ideas came into direct conflict the moment Pete Ro died.
Reb Gregg, who is not involved in the Ro lawsuit but represents clients who might be affected by it, champions the Wyoming Principle. "We're arguing for cutting the instructor a little slack," says Gregg. "One of the toughest concepts for people to get their arms around is the difficulty of making just the right decision in a wilderness environment. A jury will inevitably search for the right response. But there's a gap between the drop-dead right answer and a reasonable answer. What I'm saying is that a decision may ultimately prove to be wrong, but that doesn't mean it was unreasonable. And being wrong is not the same as being careless or negligent."
Still, recent liability cases in California have established that a coach or instructor may have a heightened responsibility when it comes to risk. In one case, a high school swimmer who was paralyzed when he followed his coach's instructions to dive into the shallow end of a pool won $11.5 million from the school district.
"A coach has a heightened responsibility when it comes to those risks," says Walker. "We feel that's the case with Jeff Lowe. If you enhance the natural risk of a physical activity, you can be responsible for that."
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majid_sabet
Jan 2, 2006, 12:44 AM
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Happy New Year to all.
This 5 part article, pretty old but involved a well know climber and his business instructing other climbers to learn his techniques etc, just read it.
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp
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moss1956
Jan 2, 2006, 1:24 AM
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I was at VE earlier in the week. It was real busy and there were lots of people there who were unfamiliar with climbing. I had two people walk between me and the wall while I was belaying- and they got tangled in my rope.
Safe behavior is a culture. If you are surrounded by people who know what they are doing, they will call you on it when you are doing something egregiously unsafe. However, in the week between Christmas and New Years a lot of people go to they gym who have never been before. Even though the staff is doing the best they can, its just not as safe as when the majority of the people in the gym are old climbing wonks.
I would hope they don't get sued. Its a great place to go and get a good workout when its too cold or wet to climb outside, plus there is a gazillion-plex theater across Diehl road from them where I can see all the movies they won't show in Iowa.
VE is one of the two gyms that I will drive to in Illinois during inclement weather. The other is Upper Limits. Lets hope they both continue to thrive.
... and Majid, interesting story. I sure hope the jury in that torte case sees it the way I see it. I know climbing is dangerous, and I know I could get hurt really bad, but you know, I enjoy it so much that I am willing to tolerate the risk. I still make mistakes, and more dangerously I am willing to go out with beginners, so far God has looked out for this fool.
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fuzzymonkey
Jan 2, 2006, 4:00 AM
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I too used to climb at this VE outside Chicago. I haven't been in a while, and probably won't go back seeing as how I have moved to the East Coast.
I was a regular at VE at least twice, sometimes three times a week, driving 40 miles one way. Anywho, I will say the staff is competent, well trained and knowledgeable. Most climb ouside on their own, or lead VE travel groups and guides. I was shown how to use the auto belays my first trip a few years ago, but I also had my own harness and they explained to me how to use it (even though I told them I knew already) and it was fairly busy that evening (college night). Any climber who has never climbed at VE before must go through this orientation, experienced or not.
That being said, when there is 2 birthday parties going on, or maybe just a really busy weekend or evening, things can slip through the cracks - we're all human. And not everyone can be watched all the time. I do blame this a little on auto belays. I have the same feelings about them as I do GriGri's (as in prone to problems and not having anyone check you like your belayer, but that's another dead horse). Most of the fault lies with the climber, not the staff.
This guy could have been drunk, stoned or worse, or maybe a 5.12d traddy that just messed up once. Who are we to know unless we actually knew the person in the accident? Assuming this guy went through the proper training/orientation, signed the waver and was able, then it's his responsibility to climb properly. If he did just walk in and climb, and the staff didn't see him...well, isn't that like driving without drivers ed and a license?
As for the comment above about belaying without a "belay tag:" I too did that many many times, but when you check in the computer screen shows if you are belay certified or not. I'm not saying that they mentally keep track of who is and who isn't, but they do see that at time of check-in. And if you arn't, I believe they usually ask you if you want to become belay certified.
I'm sure the VE staff has been instructed not to respond to this thread which is why none of of them have spoken up. I hope this guy is ok, but more importantly, I hope he leared his lesson and us too: look out for you fellow climber.
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chitowngirl
Jan 2, 2006, 4:54 AM
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I am amazed at all of you folks chiming in blaming the staff at VE, when you've never been to the gym, don't know the people involved and weren't there when it happened. Rather silly, I think, to have an opinion, then.
I am a regular at VE. Their safety procedues have been already stated, but I'll say it again, since some people seem unable or unwilling to comprehend it. You may not use the auto-belays at the gym unless you have signed a waiver and gone through a safety demonstration. You can not climb there unless checked out by staff. You can not TR unless you pass a belay test, and you can not lead unless you pass a lead test. The ground is not hard.
But it is a big gym and often very crowded, especially during the holidays. It's impossible for the staff to check every person before they go up on every route every time. The VE staff is knowldgeable, well-trained and I think they do a good job. I also learned who was working that day, and they are far from incompetant, and anyone who says so is an idiot. Take my word for it (although I'm sure many of you won't).
I generally find this whole culture of 'my mistakes are somebody else's fault' very disturbing. People should take responsibility for their actions and face the consequences. Every mistake is a lesson learned. Of course, too many people think now that every mistake made is a potential lawsuit. Sad.
and csgambill... I'm on your side on this. Men should always climb shirtless. This would make my time belaying a great deal more interesting. And if it was indeed some woman who complained about it - I agree! Feminazi bitch! Ruined it for all of us...
Perhaps I will lead a protest my climbing in my bra this week...
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mn_tom
Jan 2, 2006, 5:33 AM
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I climb at the VE in Saint Paul with some regularity and I have gone through the orientation and signed the waivers just the same as everyone else who climbs there.
Here is a link to said waiver.
http://www.verticalendeavors.com/...rrenville-waiver.pdf
For those of you that don't care to read the whole thing, I'll summarize.
The climber freely and voluntarily assumes all risks associated with climbing. These risks include but are not limited to slips, trips and falls, and failure of any climbing equipment, including harnesses, anchors, holds, etc.
VE would not be responsible even if it were their own harness.
The waiver also states that it is the climbers responsibility to double check their own tie in while using the auto-belay.
The victim made a mistake and it was only his mistake. Let's all hope that he learned from it, and let this finger-pointing thread die.
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mowz
Jan 2, 2006, 6:48 AM
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I cannot believe this thread is still around.
Is it possible to killfile a thread?
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 7:30 AM
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I agree with you all from a climbers' POV that this guy is to blame, but from a business and liability standpoint, the gym f'ed up!
They had him sign a waiver. Good, now they have a CHANCE in court. Ask any guide, or owner of a guide service how much faith they have in waivers. They'll all tell you any good lawyer can get passed them, no matter how well they're written.
You all say the gym was too crowded to allow staff to check everyone....to that I say: there should have been more staffing then.
Is this guy responsible for his actions? Yeah, he f'ed up. But can he go after the gym in court...yeah, and he could probably win.
I really fail to see how someone who was trained in how to put on a harness and use an autobelay... put his harness on backwards and clipped into a gear loop. No-one I know, is quite that stupid. And if they did "certify him" to use this auto-belay, and the guy did this...then there's something wrong with their certification process.
You say the gym is crowded....yet NO-ONE in this crowded gym, stepped in and said anything; while you all say how everyone who belays at the gym gets checked out, and is thus another pair of eyes for staff, and non of them said anything.
Whether the staff was over-run with customers and didn't have time to check this guy over, despite the fact that he probably fumbed with his harness for a while, then climbed up quite a bit with no-one noticing him with his harness on incorrecty; OR they didn't enforce their security procedures, and this guy got in without them knowing....they can be held responsible (to some extent).
In a gym so crowded that the staff can't check over all of the climbers....how did this guy get his harness on, ass-backwards, without any other climbers who knows how a harness goes on, not notice???
I can't argue that the staff were inexperienced, or that the gym sucks, or that the climber involved was drunk (which the staff should have picked up on when he walked in) or whatever.
But the point remains: the gym could have taken measures to ensure that this wouldn't have happened...and if his lawyer can prove that such steps would have been reasonable... thats about all this guy needs to win in court.
I hope the guy doesn't sue too...but I hope the gym toughens up their policies a little.
Someone mentioned people not liking being supervised while they climb...
One day at the crag, I saw a guy hangdogging a sport route, with a woman belaying him on a grigri. When i looked over, i saw the gate open on the locker. The belayer never locked the gate, and while this guy was hanging on the rope, and she had the rope locked off....her arm pushed the gate on the biner open...almost all the way.
I stepped up and politly said "i dunno if you intended for it, but your belay biner there is open" She moved her arm to look at it, the gate clossed...she looked at me like I was a jerk....said "What are you talking about?" I said "well your biner there, is unlocked" she noticed, shrugged at me, locked it, and never said another word....like I was the idiot cause I was a "5.8" climber telling this "5.13" climber what to do.
I was the WFR, and didn't feel like having to carry that guy out, so I said something....only to get treated like shit for doing so. If she doesn't understand my reasons for saying something, she can kiss my ass.
In a gym, where your not only protecting climbers from injury, but your gym from lawsuits...its your duty to say something, and check climbers over. Its your place, they can leave if they don't like it. If people meet you with aggression for making sure they'll be safe...who cares if they don't come back? Every experienced climber I know respects each other for pointing out other's mistakes; it lets them know we care about each other.
Besides the nature of safety checks making sure others will be safe, they protect your business as well.
I imagine the responce I'll get to this is: if you scare away climbers by having policies they don't like...you'll loose visits and hurt your bottom line. Well, you'll still be a hell-of-a-lot better off loosing a few visits, than letting every obnoxious idiot climb at your gym, then sue you for all your worth.
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 7:30 AM
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I agree with you all from a climbers' POV that this guy is to blame, but from a business and liability standpoint, the gym f'ed up!
They had him sign a waiver. Good, now they have a CHANCE in court. Ask any guide, or owner of a guide service how much faith they have in waivers. They'll all tell you any good lawyer can get passed them, no matter how well they're written.
You all say the gym was too crowded to allow staff to check everyone....to that I say: there should have been more staffing then.
Is this guy responsible for his actions? Yeah, he f'ed up. But can he go after the gym in court...yeah, and he could probably win.
I really fail to see how someone who was trained in how to put on a harness and use an autobelay... put his harness on backwards and clipped into a gear loop. No-one I know, is quite that stupid. And if they did "certify him" to use this auto-belay, and the guy did this...then there's something wrong with their certification process.
You say the gym is crowded....yet NO-ONE in this crowded gym, stepped in and said anything; while you all say how everyone who belays at the gym gets checked out, and is thus another pair of eyes for staff, and non of them said anything.
Whether the staff was over-run with customers and didn't have time to check this guy over, despite the fact that he probably fumbed with his harness for a while, then climbed up quite a bit with no-one noticing him with his harness on incorrecty; OR they didn't enforce their security procedures, and this guy got in without them knowing....they can be held responsible (to some extent).
In a gym so crowded that the staff can't check over all of the climbers....how did this guy get his harness on, ass-backwards, without any other climbers who knows how a harness goes on, not notice???
I can't argue that the staff were inexperienced, or that the gym sucks, or that the climber involved was drunk (which the staff should have picked up on when he walked in) or whatever.
But the point remains: the gym could have taken measures to ensure that this wouldn't have happened...and if his lawyer can prove that such steps would have been reasonable... thats about all this guy needs to win in court.
I hope the guy doesn't sue too...but I hope the gym toughens up their policies a little.
Someone mentioned people not liking being supervised while they climb...
One day at the crag, I saw a guy hangdogging a sport route, with a woman belaying him on a grigri. When i looked over, i saw the gate open on the locker. The belayer never locked the gate, and while this guy was hanging on the rope, and she had the rope locked off....her arm pushed the gate on the biner open...almost all the way.
I stepped up and politly said "i dunno if you intended for it, but your belay biner there is open" She moved her arm to look at it, the gate clossed...she looked at me like I was a jerk....said "What are you talking about?" I said "well your biner there, is unlocked" she noticed, shrugged at me, locked it, and never said another word....like I was the idiot cause I was a "5.8" climber telling this "5.13" climber what to do.
I was the WFR, and didn't feel like having to carry that guy out, so I said something....only to get treated like shit for doing so. If she doesn't understand my reasons for saying something, she can kiss my ass.
In a gym, where your not only protecting climbers from injury, but your gym from lawsuits...its your duty to say something, and check climbers over. Its your place, they can leave if they don't like it. If people meet you with aggression for making sure they'll be safe...who cares if they don't come back? Every experienced climber I know respects each other for pointing out other's mistakes; it lets them know we care about each other.
Besides the nature of safety checks making sure others will be safe, they protect your business as well.
I imagine the responce I'll get to this is: if you scare away climbers by having policies they don't like...you'll loose visits and hurt your bottom line. Well, you'll still be a hell-of-a-lot better off loosing a few visits, than letting every obnoxious idiot climb at your gym, then sue you for all your worth.
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gonz
Jan 2, 2006, 3:02 PM
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Just a note regarding "certifications".
When you check out to belay at a gym, or lead belay, or lead climb, or use an auto-belay, you are not getting certified. You are not getting a certificate that says you have passed some almighty examination and we as a gym have now declared you to be a safe and competent (insert skill here) no matter where you go.
A certification is backed by a recognized agency, for example AMGA. If you pass an AMGA course, then you can say you are certified to do whatever that course taught you. If you pass a belay test at my gym, then go outside and get hurt, don't think for second that you can say that I certified you as a belayer and now I'm liable.
All you have done in a gym once you pass said test is get "checked out". Nothing more. All that gym has said is that you meet the basic qualifications to use that skill unsupervised within their facility.
And it also doesn't mean you can show up at some other gym halfway across the country and tell them that you are certified to belay at Gym X, so you shouldn't have to take their test.
Those of you who work at gyms please remember this and try to not encourage the words "Congrats, you're now certified to belay!".
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mowz
Jan 2, 2006, 7:18 PM
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Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
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reno
Jan 2, 2006, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
It's really not our position to decide when "enough is enough." The thread will die it's own death in due time, once everyone has decided they've had enough.
Setting limits on how long we can discuss any given topic isn't really a habit we want to promote. Yes, it does happen from time to time, but those are rare. I don't think this one is there yet.
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gonz
Jan 2, 2006, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
That's a good job at post padding sir! What do you care?
Mild flaming aside, this thread is well within control, and folks who are engaged in this "cirlcle of banter" have not gotten downright nasty or threatening yet.
If you are done with this thread, then don't come back to read anymore. Otherwise let us play our silly little game here :lol:
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: Just a note regarding "certifications". All you have done in a gym once you pass said test is get "checked out". Nothing more. All that gym has said is that you meet the basic qualifications to use that skill unsupervised within their facility.
Did you think I was saying different? The point I was making is, if the gym knew of this guys enterance and showed him the safety procedures that others are talking about... the gym approved the guy to "use that skill unsupervised within their facility" when the guy obviously had no idea what he was doing.
It defeats the point of approving people, if you approve the wrong people...doesn't it?
Cheers,
Jim
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gonz
Jan 3, 2006, 12:17 AM
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Sorry Jim, I was not referring to you in particular. I was talking about all of us in general, since in the Gym climbing section of the board as well as this thread I've seen the term "Certified to belay" several times, and it's unsettling from a liability standpoint.
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powair
Jan 3, 2006, 1:53 AM
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VE does floor checks once every 10 minutes or so and there is usually someone on staff (not working) down climbing anyway ...I know i've stepped up and helped kids on auto belays clipped in wrong. I know most of the staff and it isnt fair to blame them in anyway. I think VE does a great job of keeping things safe for everyone. I wasnt there that night and havent had a chance to ask anyone about it...but i will when i get back down there... Anyway, the guy messed up...its happens i guess....
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boardline22
Jan 3, 2006, 2:23 AM
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everyone brought up good points and I did not know this thread was going to go on so long
also where can you get officailly certified to belay and lead climb?
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gonz
Jan 3, 2006, 8:33 PM
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As far as I know you cannot officially get certified as a belayer or in any other basic climbing skill.
The AMGA can certify you as a guide, and there is an instructor course either in the works or already available which is geared towards individuals who work in gyms or a climbing wall setting.
I'm not sure why one would want to get certified. When I think about what purpose it would serve, I'm reminded of what certification does in the Scuba world. There are several agencies that will certify your ability to be a safe and competent scuba diver. And this certification is recognized around the world and is your pass to be able to dive, buy equipment, and fill your tanks. But for whatever reason this process does not exist in climbing, even though the liability and consequences seem quite parallel.
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majid_sabet
Jan 4, 2006, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: As far as I know you cannot officially get certified as a belayer or in any other basic climbing skill. The AMGA can certify you as a guide, and there is an instructor course either in the works or already available which is geared towards individuals who work in gyms or a climbing wall setting. I'm not sure why one would want to get certified. When I think about what purpose it would serve, I'm reminded of what certification does in the Scuba world. There are several agencies that will certify your ability to be a safe and competent scuba diver. And this certification is recognized around the world and is your pass to be able to dive, buy equipment, and fill your tanks. But for whatever reason this process does not exist in climbing, even though the liability and consequences seem quite parallel.
Sure you can get a BELAY certification, some YMCA gives you a certification for $10. You must be 11 years or older.
Here visit this site and get your cert.
http://www.brryallymca.org/Climbing.html
Jim Davis, you got any input on certification?
Regards
Majid
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2006, 2:17 AM
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In reply to: Sorry Jim, I was not referring to you in particular. I was talking about all of us in general, since in the Gym climbing section of the board as well as this thread I've seen the term "Certified to belay" several times, and it's unsettling from a liability standpoint.
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2006, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: Sure you can get a BELAY certification, some YMCA gives you a certification for $10. You must be 11 years or older. Here visit this site and get your cert. http://www.brryallymca.org/Climbing.html Jim Davis, you got any input on certification? Regards Majid
I'm sure the Boy Scouts have their cert too....Hell, I can have my OWN cert. if I make one up...doesn't mean anything though.
I think certs have their place when your trying to make money. I know a few guides, not certified, that I trust a lot more than some guides I know who are certified. I think having that AMGA cert, or some equivelent cert, is important to running a reputable guide service. It's what new customers are going to look for when they choose a guide. If Mom and Dad are looking for a guide for their son's birthday...they'll choose a service backed by a national accrediation program. If i guide service doesn't seek out certification...then it's a crap shoot. They could be fantastic, they could be second rate...it's all up to the owner, and who he chooses to hire. You don't know what they're standards are, and what level of training you know your guides will have, at a minimum.
For personal use...I think they're nice to have. I think seeking out those certs are good, because you know that what your learning has been tried, tested, and backed by a reputable organization. But, they can be really pricey, and not for everyone.
But this is getting off topic, and I'm not too sure what your looking to hear about.
Do you mean about gyms? Or what?
Cheers,
Jim
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billl7
Jan 4, 2006, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: As far as I know you cannot officially get certified as a belayer or in any other basic climbing skill. The AMGA can certify you as a guide, and there is an instructor course either in the works or already available which is geared towards individuals who work in gyms or a climbing wall setting. I'm not sure why one would want to get certified. When I think about what purpose it would serve, I'm reminded of what certification does in the Scuba world. There are several agencies that will certify your ability to be a safe and competent scuba diver. And this certification is recognized around the world and is your pass to be able to dive, buy equipment, and fill your tanks. But for whatever reason this process does not exist in climbing, even though the liability and consequences seem quite parallel. ======================= Sure you can get a BELAY certification, some YMCA gives you a certification for $10. You must be 11 years or older.
Majid, gonz is talking about a more universal certification and not one that is specific to one establishment.
It is an interesting difference between SCUBA diving and rock climbing. I would guess that the need for certification in SCUBA diving is because the apparatus enables a primary bodily function in a complex environment.
How about climbing? One could say there are comparable complexities in our efforts towards preventing gravity from killing us on outdoor rock; perhaps outdoor rock climbing is even more complex than SCUBA diving in that the use of SCUBA related equipment is very well defined and so related knowledge can be easily tested? I'd be interested in hearing what other think.
Bill
Edited to add: okay, I see Majid's point - can an establishment certify one's belay technique or are they reall just checking you out for their purposes? I guess the word "certify" seems universal to me (i.e., applies outside of the "certifying" agent) and Majid's example represents a misuse of the term - IMHO.
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boardline22
Jan 4, 2006, 3:02 AM
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I was asking about how you can get certified for diving if there was an equivlent for climbing
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majid_sabet
Jan 4, 2006, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: I was asking about how you can get certified for diving if there was an equivlent for climbing
Bill
I was just kidding about the YMCA cert .
========================
brdline22
As far as I know, there are no governmental institutions in North America that gives any sorts of approved belay or climbing certificates, however Privet Companies such as gyms and other related health clubs do issue in-house certificates for their own use only. These sorts of cert has no value and does not represent any official or approved training and if you ask why is this? Just think about lawsuit.
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billl7
Jan 4, 2006, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: As far as I know, there are no governmental institutions in North America that gives any sorts of approved belay or climbing certificates, however Privet Companies such as gyms and other related health clubs do issue in-house certificates for their own use only. These sorts of cert has no value and does not represent any official or approved training and if you ask why is this? Just think about lawsuit.
Yes, a lawsuit is the common denominator like saying a business closed/failed due to lack of income. Underneath there is something more meaningful I suspect. Those who certify folks for SCUBA diving run the risk of a lawsuit. Yes?
Bill
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easton
Jan 4, 2006, 3:34 PM
Post #84 of 86
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Registered: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 250
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In reply to: As far as I know, there are no governmental institutions in North America that gives any sorts of approved belay or climbing certificates, however Privet Companies such as gyms and other related health clubs do issue in-house certificates for their own use only. These sorts of cert has no value and does not represent any official or approved training and if you ask why is this? Just think about lawsuit.
Diving certs are not by governmental agencies. There are no laws stating I must have a cert to dive, but good luck getting a PADI dive shop to sell or rent you gear without a certification. Once PADI (a private, maybe not-for-profit organization) says your certified, that means you have demonstrated a certain amount of skill. PADI offers liability insurance to its instructors and takes the brunt of the lawsuit so long as the instructor follows their curriculum and skill tests.
For climbing, it could be possible for the owners of the gyms to create an organization similar to PADI to help protect themselves, but I doubt it would be cost effective, and it would not be likely to extend protection to those who belay outdoors.
If you equate the certification to governmental certs like firefighters or EMT's, thats a horse of a different color, and would be so cumbersome and expensive that your better off just taking your chances, IMO.
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gonz
Jan 4, 2006, 4:27 PM
Post #85 of 86
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Registered: Nov 9, 2005
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Two other things that occured to me regarding this certification issue are the following:
With a diving cert, most guides and divemasters will require you to take a refresher if you haven't been active for a certain period of time (usually 4-6 months), and some even like to see your logbook that catalogs your experience and shows how often and where you've been diving. Imagine showing up at the gate to the loop road in Red Rocks, and having to show the ranger your ticklist before he'd let you climb in certain areas?
And cost is a big issue. To take a lesson at a gym to learn the basics of belaying costs roughly $30. To learn to lead and lead belay is, let's say, another $30. To get certified in scuba will run anywhere from $300-600, for the pool work and the open water. Another $200 if you want to do your advanced open water. A large part of that fee is offsetting the cost of having a certifying agency, like PADI. Since we don't have that in climbing, we don't have such an outrageous cost involved in learning the sport.
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boardline22
Jan 4, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Registered: Feb 18, 2005
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good point. what can you do to be able to guide and have people employ you wheter it be climbing, skiing, biking, etc?
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