|
boardline22
Dec 24, 2005, 9:13 PM
Post #1 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 652
|
On Friday December 23rd, 2005 I went to VE in Warrenville, and just before I get on my 3rd climb, I turn around and see a guy whos was climbing an auto belay falling five feet then heard a loud bang. The VE staff quickly reactedand called 911 then closed the bottom section of the wall
I later talk to staff and it turns out the guy had his harness on backwards and clipped onto the gear loop which brok when he put his weight on it. The other part was he brought the harness from outside the gym so you would think he would know how to put it on.
Chalk another accident up because of user's fault
any comments?
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 9:28 PM
Post #2 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
As annoying as I sometimes find it, there is something to be said for gyms making sure you know what you are doing, before allowing you to go at it unsupervised.
I have been in many gyms where you sign the waiver, and away you go. Though convenient for those of us who actually know what we are doing, this means anyone can walk in, say 'sure, I know what I am doing' and set about trying to injure or kill themselves in the best manner possible (as happened at VE).
The gym should know that the waiver means very little when/if someone like that decides to sue, especially if their idea of 'checking to make sure the customer knows what they are doing' consists of only verbally asking!
|
|
|
|
|
erclimb
Dec 24, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #3 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2002
Posts: 204
|
i bet he sues, and i bet he wins; his case: having a harness on backwards is such an obvious mistake that the professionals on the staff should have noticed and stopped him before he started climbing
i DO NOT think he should win (in fact, i think such stupidity should be punishable with jail time), but what are the chances of the defense getting a judge or 6 jurors who climb?
|
|
|
|
|
csgambill
Dec 24, 2005, 9:43 PM
Post #4 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 607
|
What a fucking loser. Now we'll all probably have to go through a safety class so the staff can make sure we all know how to put our harnesses on correctly. They just instituted a rule that we (guys) have to wear our shirts all the time. Evidently some feminazi bitch got jealous and complained. Although I liked the no-topropes in the area around the bouldering cave. It kept away all the little kids and forced me to climb harder. ...Especially when I wasn't wearing a shirt. oh well, what can you do. Have to climb somewhere in the winter.
Btw- any idea what happend to this guy. I wasn't there that night. How the hell do you put your harness on backwards!??!
|
|
|
|
|
peeps
Dec 24, 2005, 9:48 PM
Post #5 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2005
Posts: 8
|
This is the exact reason why the gym where I climb (Earth Treks in Maryland) got rid of any autobelays...they were finding that too many people were being stupid and not checking their knots, harnesses, etc. They actually force someone to have a real person as a belay partner, and to also encourage double checking (by the belayer and by the climber) of knots, etc. to make sure everything else is the way it's supposed to be before anyone gets on the wall.
And the staff will walk around and make sure people are belaying correctly, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
roseraie
Dec 24, 2005, 9:57 PM
Post #6 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2003
Posts: 439
|
It's a GUY and HE had his harness on backwards? Wouldn't that be seriously painful? And wouldn't it be really difficult to double the buckles back when they're behind you?
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 10:01 PM
Post #7 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: It's a GUY and HE had his harness on backwards? Wouldn't that be seriously painful? And wouldn't it be really difficult to double the buckles back when they're behind you?
Many harnesses (Petzl in particular) don't require you to double back.
I worked many years at a wall with Petzl harnesses (don't remember the exact model), and was quite amazed at how some people would try to put them on (sometimes impatiently before the training class had started, sometimes after being told how to do it properly) :roll:
....including backwards, and around the shoulders. It could be quite amusing to watch. Needless to say, they weren't allowed near the wall before the harness was on properly though.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Dec 24, 2005, 11:34 PM
Post #8 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
In reply to: .....Evidently some feminazi b---- got jealous and complained.
wow.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Dec 24, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #9 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
In reply to: Evidently some feminazi.... |
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Dec 25, 2005, 12:02 AM
Post #10 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Not to join on this off topic crap whole-heartedly, but I beleive hte word he was looking for is prude or bluenose.
I once knew a woman, married wiht a kid even, who truly felt, and woudl tell you right up front, that men should wear a T-shirt under thier dress shirt, because she didn;lt like to see the men;s nipples showing though hte regular shirt.
You really can't make this stuff up.
Back on topic, harness on backwards, that's good. Takes talent. That guy probably won't do it again though. You have to wonder what he thought about the buckles. I see a run on safetech harnesses by gyms, hahahahahahahaahaha.
|
|
|
|
|
nevenneve
Dec 25, 2005, 2:46 AM
Post #11 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2004
Posts: 454
|
Not to start a rant on the senselessness of the overly urbane and just plain lacking in common sense that make waivers make sense but, this guy obviously was NOT checked out to belay yet. I would wager a guess he was properly clipped into the auto-belay and had been given binding instructions as to his behavior as far as you can go without insulting the average person. I would have to equate the fact that some random person is not stopped by anyone in the gym within the short amount of time it took to walk from the locker room to the wall as a decent comparison to a kid at daycare tying his shoelaces to the fire pole on the playground and seeing how many times he can spin on the way down. The average person enjoying them self is paying more attention to the hazards of playing than someone tying their shoes or standing on the ground clipping in. These are some rather large suppositions to make about the actual accident, admittedly. In a perfect world most people would have no scars if someone had been able to stop them from anything remotely dangerous they are about to have missteps in. The teacher didn't catch the error till someone was flat on their ass. I hope he doesn't sue the gym for his misuse of or faulty equipment. This kind of incident is why most where I climb have no qualms about rectifying a safety issue even if it means involving employee's to back up what remains necessary for a safe environment. In earnest, it has little effect on me when the staff of a gym is doing a proper job, until they start standing over me to ensure I can tie my shoes.
|
|
|
|
|
chalkfree
Dec 25, 2005, 2:57 AM
Post #12 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 512
|
At the VE in warrenville do they go over the auto belay clip in before a climber is allowed to climb?
That would have been the point where the staff would have caught it. So either this guy had been there before or was screwing around before the staff got to him.
As for blaming the staff, back off. Most wall staffs are busy, even at a wall with only five ropes in it it can be extremely difficult for one manager to keep an eye on all the newbs.
|
|
|
|
|
rgbscan
Dec 25, 2005, 4:16 AM
Post #13 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2003
Posts: 106
|
In reply to: At the VE in warrenville do they go over the auto belay clip in before a climber is allowed to climb? That would have been the point where the staff would have caught it. So either this guy had been there before or was screwing around before the staff got to him. As for blaming the staff, back off. Most wall staffs are busy, even at a wall with only five ropes in it it can be extremely difficult for one manager to keep an eye on all the newbs.
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. I know at ours (St. Paul) on your first visit you have to fill out the waivers and go through a brief orientation. A staff member walks you thru putting on your gear, double checking each other, and shows you how to clip in to the auto belay and then has you climb up a few feet and fall to show you how they work. Birthday parties have a dedicated staff person with them at all times. I've brought pretty much all my non climber friends to VE at least once each and they all got the same briefing I just mentioned.
On subsequent visits they don't check you out. If you take the belay check-out test they will grill you on basic safety but in-between that first visit orientation and the time you check out to belay you are left to your own devices. I guess something could happen in here. Too bad no-one caught it. I've corrected a few people I've run into at VE who haven't doubled back on their harness or who clip in wrong to the auto belays but I've never heard of something like this.
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
csgambill
Dec 25, 2005, 4:39 AM
Post #14 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 607
|
In reply to: In reply to: Evidently some feminazi.... I thought Rush Limbaugh was the only person who ever used the word 'feminazi' :?
Well, I guess there's no question where my political affiliations lie. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
boardline22
Dec 25, 2005, 4:45 AM
Post #15 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 652
|
then first time I went to VE they asked us if I knew what I was doing, and I said yes and showed them and everything was good, even got our belay tags. I saw kids and newbs being shown how to use autobelays and what not all the time by the staff, I personally have no idea how this could happen. Like I previous metioned that it was his own harness he was using, not the gym's. I also do not know if he is a regular ether since I go to this gym 1 every 2 months.
I wasn't upset about him being hurt I was upset when the staff pulled me off a route and closed the section of the wall. I told my pops who is a nonclimber and he was furious that I showed no sympathy and I veiwed it as natural selection
|
|
|
|
|
csgambill
Dec 25, 2005, 5:00 AM
Post #16 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2004
Posts: 607
|
At the VE in Warrenville they do have an orientation with each climber during which they cover the proper use of the auto belays. They do tell you how to correctly clip the biners to your harness. ...Clipping into your gear loop... come on that's something you snicker at while looking at the instruction manual of your new harness. I guess with so many people in the world there are bound to be those whose brains function at a somewhat sub-par level.
In regards to my earlier post, I apologize for my profanity, [edit] although not for my feminazi comment[/edit], I usually shy away from that, but I've got a nasty cold and just plain don't feel well, and I needed to vent. I'm also really disappointed that I can no longer go to the gym and proudly display my nipples. It's almost as difficult for me to believe that someone would complain about guys taking their shirts off as it is for me to believe that someone would put their harness on backwards and clip into their gear loop. $5 says this guy was just messing around and ended up hurting himself. Better in the gym where he can get quick medical attention than outside somewhere where the problem could be a lot worse.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Dec 25, 2005, 8:09 PM
Post #17 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
This is common problem when no one supervises the new climber (Even hi mileage ones make fatal mistakes). If you take an average Joe of the street and asked them to put a harness on and clip a belay device, they will have it backward.
Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it.
There is a new article in ROCK AND ICE magazine, Jan 2006 issue, which covers some of the common mistakes during belay.
Check your system every time.
peace
|
|
|
|
|
rgbscan
Dec 25, 2005, 8:31 PM
Post #18 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2003
Posts: 106
|
In reply to: This is common problem when no one supervises the new climber (Even hi mileage ones make fatal mistakes). If you take an average Joe of the street and asked them to put a harness on and clip a belay device, they will have it backward.
I should point out that VE (St. Paul's) rental harnesses are diaper style with only a single tie in point and not a single gear loop. As mentioned above the victim in this case had brought in an outside harness. I would imagine that they would bear some responsibility for knowing how to operate their own equipment.
Just my .02 cents. But I do hate to see VE take all of the blame for this.
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
boardline22
Dec 27, 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #19 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 652
|
VE shouldn't have to take any blame for dumb asses (sp)
|
|
|
|
|
plund
Dec 27, 2005, 11:17 PM
Post #20 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2003
Posts: 302
|
In reply to: Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it.
Not the "victim's" fault? At all??? Isn't he the one to whom the instruction was given? Or did you mean "giving the instruction", ie. the staff? Seems to me the ultimate victim is gonna be the owner of the facility...Gotta call BS on ya on this one, majid....it seems whatever way the consensus is running (in reference to a mess of your past injury-related posts) you oppose it....if the mob says "Belayer", you say "climber"....if the consensus is "operator error", you blame equipment. This guy was a dumbass, plain & simple....true, perhaps he should have been more closely monitored (don't know if he was a 1st-timer, etc.) but jeez, if you have a question ASK, especially considering the consequences.
All that said, I hope he recovers....and tries a different activity, like fingerpainting...although, if he gets paint in his eye, is it the manufacturer's fault?
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Dec 27, 2005, 11:49 PM
Post #21 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
In reply to: In reply to: Clipping to gear loop is nothing new and again, it is not the victims fault. In this case, people who were given the instruction should be liable for it. Not the "victim's" fault? At all??? Isn't he the one to whom the instruction was given? Or did you mean "giving the instruction", ie. the staff? Seems to me the ultimate victim is gonna be the owner of the facility...Gotta call BS on ya on this one, majid....it seems whatever way the consensus is running (in reference to a mess of your past injury-related posts) you oppose it....if the mob says "Belayer", you say "climber"....if the consensus is "operator error", you blame equipment. This guy was a dumbass, plain & simple....true, perhaps he should have been more closely monitored (don't know if he was a 1st-timer, etc.) but jeez, if you have a question ASK, especially considering the consequences. All that said, I hope he recovers....and tries a different activity, like fingerpainting...although, if he gets paint in his eye, is it the manufacturer's fault?
Climbers with bad attitudes are more dangerous than a kid who put his harness backward. I guess you never fell when you were riding your first bicycle.
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Dec 28, 2005, 2:32 AM
Post #22 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
I hope the kid recovers ok... and luckily gets another chance to do things the right way....
I shall now join the masses in killfiling Majid.. wow guy.. no where in the OP was there any mention of any lessons, class, instruction at all from the staff.. If he brought his own harness and was going to use the auto belay he should have probably known how to put it on correctly (really not sure how to pull the buckles tight backwards) ALSO if he did take a class and was instructed properly then it's his own damn fault that he did not replicate those instructions to tie in correctly
If the guy did not know how to put his harness on he should have ASKED.
I'm a huge advocate of taking personal responsibility for your own actions. If you need to someone to hold your hand then ask for it
Majid.. you probly fell off your bike first try right? do you think it's right to blame your brother, sister, parent whoever.. that taught you to pedal and balance etc when you failed.. i bet you did.. but most people sack up, dust themselves off and try to practice what the people taught them until they get it right.. and practice in a driveway, yard, parking lot (like putting your harness on at home, gym instructions in hand) before heading out on to a main road by yourself (like getting on a wall with no supervision)
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Dec 28, 2005, 3:04 AM
Post #23 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I hope the guy's OK.
|
|
|
|
|
boardline22
Dec 28, 2005, 4:43 AM
Post #24 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 652
|
j_ung, the emts came and brought im to the hospital, and the staff found out later that his ankle was badly broken and he ws complaining of back pains
|
|
|
|
|
redhairedpixie
Dec 28, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #25 of 86
(11387 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2005
Posts: 11
|
Firstly hope the guy recovers soon.
Secondly I assume auto belay is the same as the British "self belay" device. Work of the devil, involves throwing yourself backwards when at the top? :evil: horrible things only time I have ever freaked out up til now on one of those things <>
Well, I'm a relative noob to climbing , only 5 months and even I can't fathom out how you'd put your harness on backwards :roll: I always climb with someone more experienced, and they double check me all the time.....but if I wasn't sure I'd ask!
Never been to the gym in question (obviously), but would imagine its similar to Rockcity in Hull. we just sign to say we understand what a figure of eight is, that we know how to belay etc....noone ever checks. But then again I wouldn't blame the staff if I did it wrong
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
