To practice fall or not to practice fall? In the beginners forum, specifically the Falling on Lead thread, this subject came up yet again.

I will put this question to rest. Practice falls are a good idea only once you have anylyzed that your fear of falling is holding you back. Not just a fear of falling, but you have gotten to the point where you are physically climbing at a level where can climb climbs with safe falls, but more importantly, you are placing solid gear and have the mental awareness of what makes a safe fall and what doesn't.

So you have gotten a lot of mileage on rock, placing gear, downclimbing, analyzing different situations, etc. You know when you can't fall and when you can, but you still can't bring yourself to climb confidently above your gear if a fall is a good possiblity. THen...MAYBE...practice falls in the gym are for you. I say maybe for two reasons. One....Not everyone needs this separate practice. They grow out of it with more experience or they learn to control the fear using it to their advantage..and...TWo... Not everyone should have to move past it. You can climb your whole life and never fall. That is up to you. It will be hard to push your physical limits, but not every one climbs for that.

SO....Giving the advice as a blanket for everyone is STUPID advice. To give that advice, you need to know the experience and mental state and capabilities of that person. You CAN'T do that over the internet.

Discuss....


Josh

Christ, this is just what we needed, TWO threads on this.


Great.


People around here never learn.

This is DIFFERENT from the other thread. It was one idea that I thought warranted attention. As for people not learning, you are partially correct. People DON"T learn if they do not discuss . Now...DO you have anything relavent to say?

Josh

Practice falls, even for beginners on trad gear, can be perfectly safe on the right terrain with adequate back-ups in place. Are beginners capable of judging that terrain and creating those back ups? Depends on the beginner, I suppose.

You are wrong

Jay, really, what happened to the killfile?

Killfile would not help you when you are still wrong about giving advice to people that is perfectly safe to fall.

Killfile only help pu**ies who have not done their homework .

No, not really. Not going to bother with relevance, as this thread will soon turn into a repeat of the last one.

Ja, you are more annoying than Majid, if you don't like the thread don't read it!! .

Notch , You are on the right track. In addition to bomber gear skills they need the skills to acess the other dangers involved in lead falling. What am I going to hit? what direction is my belayer going to be pulled, how much of a factor is rope streach, belayer movement and belay devise slippage going to be in this fall? any sharp rock arround that is going to possibly cut my rope, cut the sling or quick draw. etc, Etc? Not the kind of stuff you want your averege noob playing with. INMOP

Notch , You are on the right track. In addition to bomber gear skills they need the skills to acess the other dangers involved in lead falling. What am I going to hit? what direction is my belayer going to be pulled, how much of a factor is rope streach, belayer movement and belay devise slippage going to be in this fall? any sharp rock arround that is going to possibly cut my rope, cut the sling or quick draw. etc, Etc? Not the kind of stuff you want your averege noob playing with. INMOP

Dan, the reason you take practise falls is is so that you can learn how to fall without slamming into the rock, so you can build confidence and your belayer learns how to catch properly. Practice falls are the last place you want to learn how to mannage objective dangers and gear placement issues. If you have not mastered the objective dangers, gear placement and risk assesment issues you have no buisness takeing practice lead falls.

I really wish I had had more falling experiance to know if the flipping upside down thing was a valid concern or not.

Dan. the beginning leader can bennifit from practice falls if done under expert supervision. They will however benifit a whole lot more from learning how NOT to fall, how to down climb and how Not to climb themselfs in over their head. Ground work is great for learning placements and risk assment but they won't have the guide or mentor there the next day when they head for the crag with their noob friend. That session would be much better served in practiceing climbing in control on a lead that they can handle than it would be in working on their whips and finding out the hard way that they didn't know quite as much as they thought they did One of the things that I reccomend for my students is that they lead something within their limits every time they go out and then set a top rope on whatever hard climb they are working. i usually recomend a specific rout that i know the student will be safe on but will offer some challange. This way the student works their lead skills and then top ropes the heck out of something hard. They get lots of fall practice and belaying practice on their top rope session while getting stronger and more proficient with their climbing skills. All too often the student just goes to the crag and top ropes because they don't want to bother their partner with their learning process or they are lazy or whatever. if you lead every time you go out you will learn how to lead. if you just top rope you will get phisicaly strong but won't develop the mental skills to lead safly. If you fall every time you lead, sooner or later you are gonna get hurt

Beginning leaders can benefit from practice falls.

You are wrong

One of the things that I reccomend for my students is that they lead something within their limits every time they go out and then set a top rope on whatever hard climb they are working.

How the hell do you know if you're going like a thread without reading it? I'd like in on that technology.

I don't really get why people need to practice this.

If you WANT to climb harder, sooner or later you'll fall. if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be.

Don't practice. Do it. Go climb a vertical to overhanging sport climb, and refuse to say take. Instruct your belayer not to take even if you say it. Repeat until you whip.

you shouldn't be taking on a sport climb anyway unless you're working it.

if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be.

Maybe I'm reading your wrong, but I'd think that the experimental route to determining whether or not falls will flip you upside down is a hideously bad idea.

Practice falls are supposed to be about teaching your guts that nothing bad will happen when you fall when your head has already figured that out with relative certainty.

I don't like them b/c the gut never forgets about the relative part of what constitutes relative certainty. Everytime you fall your safety system is non-redundant.

When you get to the point that you are trying to learn how to manage tricky and potentially more dangerous falls (like long slab falls and penji's), the practice itself is going to be riskier. I honestly don't know if the risk:benefit analysis of practicing for dicey falls ends up being more dangerous than just taking as few of them as possible.

If you know that it is totaly safe but you still can't commit to the move then maby its time to take a short test fall. Often this builds confidence and you can go back up and send. Just be certain that you have all your ducks in a row before you take that test fall. To actually go out and practice risky falls is just stoooopid. Much better to practice not falling in risky situations.

Well, I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "with adequate back-ups in place." Still, I tend to agree with you. Practice falling on trad gear is pretty stupid.

Curt

The only thing that differs between our opinions is that I don't feel anyone should be leading without mastering the objective dangers, gear placement, and risk assessment issues.

I'd just like to say thank you to Blueeyed Climber for finally putting this issue to rest. FINALLY, I can sleep tonight...

This is a foolish statement. Show me ONE beginning leader who has mastered objective dangers, gear placement and risk assessment. Beginning leaders should have miles and miles of easy terrain. Easy terrain that they have NO business falling on. It takes years of actually leading to have mastered what you say a beginner should master.

Josh

Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear.

What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first?

Finally, you said it yourself.
practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back

The word mastered is subjectively defined. I could take it one step further and claim that only 5% of all climbers have these things mastered. The only thing you and I are doing here is changing the conditions on what 'mastering' the skill is.

There is nothing in that list that couldn't be learned on the ground, following, or through discussions of scenarios. Leading does not have some magical power of teaching those issues. If anything the leader is distracted from those things, and the leader has more trouble learning everything at once. The leader should have a thorough understanding of them prior to being put in a situation where their lives depend on a correct evaluation.

I am recommending the beginning leader know how to evaluate situations for safety. You on the other hand are recommending they start free-soloing for a few years. Maybe the only thing foolish is that I dignify your response with a post.

This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn.

I like my fear. [snip] My fear of falling keeps me on the rock

This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn.

The most sensible approach to climbing falls and/or falling practice that I'm aware of is Arno Ilgner's Warrior's Way course. Naturally, a lot of people have misconceptions about this. Arno does NOT say that all falls are safe or that you should approach falling casually; he does NOT say beginning climbers should do falling practice (at least not without supervision); and he does NOT advocate this for trad lead falls unless you're very proficient with protection and have plenty of backup.

If you climb long enough and/or hard enough, sooner or later you're going to be in a potential fall situation; I believe Arno's position is that you should be prepared -- physically and mentally -- when that situation comes up. In physical terms, you need to know how to use your body so you minimize the possibility of injury (this relates to granite_grrl's concern about flipping upside down). In mental terms, you evaluate the fall consequences and proceed based on that evaluation. If you're in a no-fall situation (your protection is suspect; you're climbing slab; you could deck or hit a ledge; etc.), you either back off or continue climbing knowing that you're taking a risk. If you're in a safe fall situation (bomber protection or a bolt; no obstacles to hit; overhanging rock; etc.), you know the risk is minimal and there's less reason to fear a fall.

As far as I'm concerned, the best way to know how to realistically evaluate fall consequences is to practice. And the best way to learn how to practice falling is to have expert supervision (like Arno's), at least to begin with, rather than just go out there and do it.

If you think your fear will keep you from falling, sooner or later you're going to get a really unpleasant surprise.

I agree!

JL

It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling.

I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls.

My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber.

As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on.

Two weeks ago while talking to a good friend of mine who has some big wall first ascent to his name told me the same exact thing.

You need to have that fear otherwise you become ignorant.

Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off.

JL

Well my friend can beat up your friend, and he agrees with me.

Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off.

JL

Everytime you fall your safety system is non-redundant.

Well, it may not be the objective, but that's the result.

When I fall, I generally don't have time to think about anything except something really clever like 'oh shit'

As for the Warriors Way, personally, I find the whole WW business mystifying, and a seeming waste of time. Emphasis in that sentence is on the word personally! If it works for you, great. Why should you care what I think of it?

I like Cheese!

I'm like a big mouse.

At the end of the day, the first round's on me either way, if we've had a great day of climbing.

Cheers!

GO

...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ...

[meandering off topic]

Interesting statement. It seems to summarize the defining feature of sport climbing. Might it be the very definition of sport climbing? Let's see:

"Sport Climbing: That realm of rock climbing in which falls are generally assumed to have little or no risk of injury."

Works for me so far.

disagree

Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.

Some climbs allow you to back up moves to an extreme. This means you could set up an anchor mid-pitch and do the one move wonder crux with the anchor at your waist. This is a situation where falling could be safe.

Sport climbing has bolts of unknown age and condition. Sometimes falling onto a bolt can be worse then falling onto your own well placed and redundant gear.

In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.

I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.

I wish I had a memory for names. There was someone that did their climbing at the Gunks. His reputation was for pushing the grades much higher because he was willing to fall. He would make nests of protection if needed, but he was willing to fall. I think he was a chemist or chemical engineer. The thing I read about him said he was a very measured kind of person. It is possible he did the first 5.12 at the gunks or in the country or something like that.

Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.

disagree

Top ropes are set up with trad gear all the time. It is safe to fall on them.

Some climbs allow you to back up moves to an extreme. This means you could set up an anchor mid-pitch and do the one move wonder crux with the anchor at your waist. This is a situation where falling could be safe.

Sport climbing has bolts of unknown age and condition. Sometimes falling onto a bolt can be worse then falling onto your own well placed and redundant gear.

In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.

I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.

...Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period. ...

sorry, when you agree with this statement:


I assumed you were saying safe falling cannot happen in trad climbing. (The Period. at the end implies this.)

I think I understand your position now.

It was all just confusion because it is written down and not spoken I suppose.

Safe falling is the realm of sport climbing. Period.

Trad climbs *can* have safe falls, but taking falls is about as urgent for a new trad climber as learning how to make a nest of equalized RPs.

In my opinion, Gabe is letting his OWN definition of trad leading leak into the definition of trad leading for everyone. As he mentions, everyone can pursue their own course. Trad leaders could choose to lead routes that are as safe as described above.

I still claim practice falls could be done in trad or sport with a solid margin of safety.

...I wish I had a memory for names. There was someone that did their climbing at the Gunks. His reputation was for pushing the grades much higher because he was willing to fall. He would make nests of protection if needed, but he was willing to fall. I think he was a chemist or chemical engineer. The thing I read about him said he was a very measured kind of person. It is possible he did the first 5.12 at the gunks or in the country or something like that...

Ah, I understand your point now. Totally cool.

[now really heads off-topic]

You do raise a good point: If you're out climbing on gear, and for whatever reason you engineer a situation in which falling has little or no risk of injury, are you still trad climbing? Or have you set up a little bubble of sport climbing inside the realm of trad climbing? Interesting question.

Yeah, falling purposely on trad gear makes a lot of sense. I also practice the following, since I will probably eventually encounter them:

Simulated lightening strikes by hooking jumper cables up to my ####

Ice cold 2 hour showers to the point of hypothermia to simulate having dropped/forgotten my rain shell and getting caught in a strom

Climbing using only bottle openers, slung horns, and trees as pro because I might drop my rack some day

Smashing my head through windshields since I'm bound to get in a car wreck on one of the awful 20 hour drives to get out of the Midwest and into climbing terrain

It all makes sense now......

Is it wrong to get satisfaction out of someone reviving a two-year old thread of yours?