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drunkenmonkey
Oct 9, 2002, 1:05 PM
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This is something i heard about just before i left the valley so i don't know all the details. what i do know is that a british soloist on Reticent wall took a big whipper and then required a rescue, possibly due to injury. the climber was using a gri gri to solo with and its this that prompted NPS to prosecute? (Q: Are these the people who would decide to prosecute or not in this instance?)
whats the story here, i would have thought that a Gri Gri would be a good choice to solo with?
anyone know what grounds the park authorities decide to prosecute/charge for a rescue?
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fishypete
Oct 9, 2002, 1:39 PM
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I cant imagine that the gri-gri was their basis for prosecution.
There have been plenty of other tales of idiotic stunts that resulted in rescues - no prosecution.
Maybe they had another problem with this guy?
I am curious to find out the whole story!
Cheers
Fishy.
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vertical_reality
Oct 9, 2002, 2:13 PM
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How do you lead solo with a gri-gri? I know how to do it on top-rope but I don't know how it's done while leading.
Don't worry, I'm not about to go out and solo anything (lead or top-rope), I was just wondering. If anyone is afraid to post information incase someone does feel the need to try it, then you can PM me or something.
Thanks,
Mike
[EDIT] Sorry for using the term "lead solo", but I was not sure what it was called when you lead a pitch and belay yourself while doing so. I have just read that it should be called "ropped solo", so I guess in my case I am wondering about "lead ropped solo" vs "topropped ropped solo"
[ This Message was edited by: vertical_reality on 2002-10-09 09:49 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 9, 2002, 2:48 PM
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Lead soloing with a Grigri?!
That's DANGEROUS!
[Just]
We'd best chase this one down, lads. Patrick, where'd you hear this? I had look at Chris Mac's supertopo forum, and also Camp 4, but I haven't seen or heard anything.
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ronniefrown
Oct 9, 2002, 2:57 PM
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what's the difference between lead soloing and free soloing???
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tradguy
Oct 9, 2002, 2:58 PM
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Maybe because he wasn't a US citizen and doesn't pay taxes here, they figured he should have to pay for the rescue services? Maybe. Just a thought.
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tradguy
Oct 9, 2002, 3:00 PM
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ronniefrown:
By "lead soloing" they are referring to rope soloing on lead (self belaying), versus free soloing where you are climbing unroped.
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drunkenmonkey
Oct 9, 2002, 3:55 PM
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Guys
don't know much more than i've already told you but i'm racking my brains to try and remember who it was that told me.
Apparently it was the fact that he was using a Gri Gri to solo with that lead to the decision to prosecute. The instructions to the Gri Gri appareently state that it should not be used as a rope soloing device hence the decision.
as i said i am working on second hand info. as well but i do recall the rescue team going up on (wed 2nd October?) - the day it rained in the vally in the morning for a rescue of some sort...
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coloradoclimber
Oct 9, 2002, 4:20 PM
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Due to the charge of reckless endangerment it makes sense that it was for the use of a gri-gri. Because petzl condones the use of the gri-gri for soloing, someone using it would be classified as reckless. Therefore I feel it has nothing to do with where he is from.
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passthepitonspete
Oct 9, 2002, 6:30 PM
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Indeed!
If you get nothing else from this post, get this:
ALWAYS tie a backup knot, no matter what solo device you use!
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bigdan
Oct 9, 2002, 10:15 PM
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i´ve said it before and i´ll say it again. i still think that the clove hitch is the way to go. no possibility of failure, and with a little practice, it´s as fast as any other technique, at least for me. the time you might save using a device you´ll lose messing with backup knots.
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addiroids
Oct 9, 2002, 10:29 PM
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So bigdan please explain how you re-ascend the rope on that A3 pitch to your high point after you fall on a clove hitch when you don't know the integrity of the piece that ended up catching you after 4 slide down to your harness?
Also, depending on the reason his grigri failed, I think it is crap to charge him for the rescue. Okay, we are talking about someone soloing the Reticent. Granted, there are some pretty stupid people out there, but I would guess that anyone who is soloing the Reticent is not stupid (maybe a bit crazy) and has their sh!t in gear. Maybe he didn't rebelay the rope through a piece on a long prussik to prevent it from sliding throught the grigri as he was climbing and didn't know how much slack was out. If you want to charge people, charge dumbass touron hikers for wondering off in the woods without any water or warm clothes and not having the common sense on how to get back to the main Valley (hint: go down hill!). I think the charge for reckless endangerment (to the rescuers??) is a little much though. But you have to remember we are dealing with the gubmint here.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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jds100
Oct 9, 2002, 11:28 PM
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I seem to recall that after a rescue a few years ago of some blatantly "unqualified" climbers on a big wall, that the Park Service was going to initiate a penalty for rescue if the rescued party was not prepared -in terms of gear and/ or technical skill- for the task they were undertaking. I apologize for not knowing for certain, but maybe someone more familiar with the area and the Park Service can shed some light on this part of the discussion.
If this is the case, I would suspect that prosecution could have come as a result of improperly using a belay device for a soloing device. Again, I suspect that the Service judged him to be unqualified for his chosen task, and use of the Gri Gri as a self-belay device provided some of the evidence for that judgement. If he had not needed a rescue, he would not have been found "unqualified", because his "qualifications" would not have been scrutinized.
And, I agree; I would like to see such discretionary application of penalties applied to tourists and hikers who seem to simply assume that they have a right to do whatever, because rescue is available.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-10-09 16:31 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 1:26 AM
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The rescue in question took place on The Shield a few years ago.
Some Austrian dudes were charged for the cost of their rescue - and so they should have been.
They were rescued in a storm because of their improper equipment: cotton clothing, down sleeping bags, and no flies for their portaledges.
Can anyone find a link?
But still no news on this latest thing, eh?
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jds100
Oct 10, 2002, 2:56 PM
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I've checked a lot of other sites that I believe would have info on this event, and have found no mention of it at all. I also did a Google search and again found nothing on this. So,...
If anyone finds a mention of this, I'd appreciate a PM notification. Thanks.
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drunkenmonkey
Oct 10, 2002, 4:24 PM
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Ok
doesn't appear to be any information about this anywhere other than a brief round of whispers from Camp 4 before i left so apologies for starting this one off.
if a hear anything else i will let you know.
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bigdan
Oct 10, 2002, 5:08 PM
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addiroids-
how to reascend the rope after falling on a clove? without untying the knot, obviously, use a prussik and a jug to move your weight off the know, attatch the grigri, remove the prussik, and ascend as usual. when you reach the piece, reverse the process and go back to the clove. i´ve done this once before, it wasn´t a big deal. i just prefer leading on a clove i guess. it´s obviously about personal preference, but the clove seems more fail-safe than anything else i´ve used. besides, how often do you fall on a3. of course, sometimes, but it´s not like it happens on every other pitch or anything.
as for the rescue cost question, i can´t imagine that someone knowledgable enough to be on reticent could be charged with anything, but who knows i guess. we need more details. but whenever i hear about these cases, i almost always think it unreasonable that a climber was charged with costs. usually it´s just accidents that happen, not gross negligence.
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 7:35 PM
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Hi,
It was me – so here’s my end of the story before you hear it from other rumours or the such like.
I was attempting to break the solo record on Eagle’s Way, A3 on El Cap. I wasn’t on Reticent – although there was another soloist over there at the time – may be got in trouble as well??
I Started at 4am by head torch and free climbed most of the first 6 pitches. Things were going well and I didn’t have any problems. In the afternoon I continued with the “meat and potatoes†of the climb after having a nice lazy lunch and a cool ledge below the Black Pillar (P7).
The end of pitch 10 was reached as darkness drew in. Pitch 11 is considered the crux, which I led in the darkness (doesn’t seem to hard then!). It was an awkward leaning corner with about 25ft of shallow Lost Arrows (prob didn’t help that I only had 3 with me – I like to go clean as poss…) and went ok until the belay at about 8pm (having climbed for 16 hours so far). When cleaning that pitch my first set of headlamp batteries ran out. Fortunately I had a brand new battery with me (from a unnamed climbing shop!) which turned out to be a total dud and gave out after half an hour on the pitch 12 whilst on all those RURPS. No big problem – I just lowered off to the belay and settled down for a night in my comfy harness.
Next morning I finished off leading pitch 12 and got all racked up for 13. It went bolt (backcleaned), rivet (big hanger), copperhead (backcleaned), RURP (backcleaned), RURP (backcleaned), copperhead. I had just taken my adjustable daisy from the RURP and was reaching up to the next placement when – PING … it’s roller coaster time! I fell 20ft back to the rivet, which broke and continued to fall until I fell directly onto the belay (factor 2 - nice!) The rope came tight on my GriGri – but that didn’t stop me – the locking karabiner just snapped off and I continued to fall for another 20ft until my back-up knot stopped me. On the way down, I hit a ledge with my knee (not injury sustaining luckily), flipped upside down and took some pretty bad rope burns to my left hand (I’m left handed). That was fun I thought… until the pain hit! I could hardly use my left hand and the fall had inflamed an old back injury, which turns me into a 90 year-old man.
I ascended the 40ft back to the belay and weighed up my options. I REALLY badly wanted to do this route in a good time. How fast could I lead, clean and jug each pitch now? It took me 20 mins to jug 40ft of rope just now…. Also my GriGri is mangled – I’m going to have use a slower system now. I can stand up straight, but bending over or exerting my back muscles in any way is killing me. Oh crap. Cut a long story short – I asked for a rescue. Yes, I hated myself for it and I know that it was the wimp’s way out. But at least I’m a wimp who gets to live another day.
The rescue went fine and YOSAR were absolutely brilliant as were all the nurses in the clinic. Then, the interviews started….
What I did wrong;
1. We argued for some considerable time over soloing with a GriGri. They really didn’t like it and especially didn’t like it when I insisted that I still think it is a good system and will continue to use it.
2. They didn’t like that it was my first solo of a big wall. Smaller stuff doesn’t seem to count – I guess that is their call.
3. They didn’t like my bivvy gear. Yes, I was unequipped for a storm, but how many speed climbers climb with a portaledge and fly? It was the chance that I took and I checked the weather from more than one source. Again, I accept that I was at fault.
So, in essence I can rightly be accused of recklessness – but I feel that I took adequate precautions (debatable of course!). I would have finished the route in the early afternoon, if I hadn’t been forced through bad luck to hold up in the darkness for 10 hours. The rain did not come until later in the afternoon. The fall was also, to some extent unlucky in the manner in which it debilitated me.
Well, there you go – hound me, criticise me and chastise me! I’ll try to answer all queries.
Tom
PS. All charges were dropped 2 days later and everything is fine now.
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stoutclimb1
Oct 10, 2002, 8:04 PM
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oh
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billcoe_
Oct 10, 2002, 8:29 PM
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uhhh.. Wow.
Great story, gotta love you Brits. Classic understatement as always..
Brits got grits!
Glad the lad is OK. Your locker broke? Spot of bad luck there? Luck and and pluck you Brits.
What brand was it?
Regards;
Bill
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passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 8:58 PM
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Holy frig. Your story makes my story of the Flying Pig seem trivial by comparison!
OK, let me get this straight:
You told me, Tom, that you have gone up Eagle's Way, solo, and had bailed from around pitch 7 or so after you fell asleep and fell off the ledge, right?
So you went back, right?
Obviously you must have, you did not look any the worse for wear when I saw you!
OK, let's talk about backcleaning.
I realize that on speed ascents, many climbers backclean a lot! It scares the livin' bejeepers out of me, personally. [I rarely backclean, especially on hard aid, because I am a chickenshit. As a direct result, I have also never taken a big whipper.]
I watched Erik Sloan backclean nearly an entire pitch when we were attempting a speed ascent of Magic Mushroom. Backcleaning is fundamental when making speed ascents.
To me, it seemed insane, but Erik is a very skilled and experienced El Cap aid climber.
He was also on an A1 or A2 pitch at the time.
Which brings me to my critique:
Do you feel, Tom, that you have the necessary level of aid and El Cap experience to be backcleaning a hard aid pitch? Do you feel that you know when you might fall, and when you won't?
How many El Cap routes have you done? Have you done any as hard as Eagle's Way, which I would consider to be a "moderate"?
I think it's necky to attempt what you did, and I applaud your ballsiness, but it's your backcleaning I'm questioning.
My first thought was, he backcleaned a bolt?! But then I realized it was your first piece.
But you STILL shouldn't have backcleaned it, because leaving it clipped would have by definition eliminated the possibility of the true factor 2 that you took.
Your other fundamental error, at least as I see it, is that you should have put a screamer on the rivet. I sure as hell do! All the time, mate!
I need you to clarify, please, exactly what you mean when you write,
Quote:" The rope came tight on my GriGri – but that didn’t stop me – the locking karabiner just snapped off and I continued to fall for another 20ft until my back-up knot stopped me.
What the hell does "snapped off" mean? Did you break a carabiner? What kind? How is your Grigri mangled? What the hell happened? It's not clear to me. I still consider a Grigri to be the aid soloists belay device of choice, unless you can convince me otherwise based on your explanation of precisely what happened.
[Aside: Good thing you tied a backup knot, eh? I met a guy who bailed from a solo attempt on N.A. Wall after he fell a long way when HIS Grigri didn't hold a fall, and his backup was way too long and he fell a long long way!]
Tell me about the rain. You did not have storm gear. If the forecast appeared good, I would not have brought storm gear either in your situation.
Did it rain? If so, when? What did the forecast say, and was it wrong?
I applaud your neckiness, and do not consider it recklessness.
Please tell us about the extent of your injuries! How is your back and your bod? Your rope burns - how bad are they? My friggin' rope burn behind my knee has finally dried up, but it superated for a week. Yuck, eh?
I am Dr. Piton,
and I will continue to solo El Cap in my shorts using a Grigri - I'll just tie my backup knots more frequently!
P.S. You're lucky to be alive, mate. Glad you're still with us.....
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jds100
Oct 10, 2002, 9:14 PM
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Thanks for the info; glad the charges were dropped.
Pete: are there websites that do (or should) have reliable up-to-date accident info for Yosemite, or for climbing in general? I checked a bunch, and the gov't. ones seem to have data that's 2 years old; nothing on Camp 4 website; nothing on SuperTopos. Maybe it's just not vital enough to keep track of (?).
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pattray
Oct 10, 2002, 9:35 PM
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I bet it was an English brand
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 9:46 PM
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Ok,
Reply to the things I remember;
1. Brand - It was a DMM Locker - one of the ones with the red gate - I bought it with one of those "Belay safe" plastic guards. Not sure of the name though. It was bomber and NEW.
2. The first failure was the locker - this snapped. The second instance was the rope pulling through the GriGri and pushing the plastic out of the bottom and shearing off one of the minor bolts/screws.
3. Please note; essentially this was not the GriGri failing - I am still happy with the system and device, hence not giving up soloing.
4. Hand is getting better. Obviously not close to climbing at the mo' but will in the future. Back is just a continual nightmare... Hey, at least I'm alive and walking!
Tom
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addiroids
Oct 10, 2002, 9:56 PM
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Glad you are still with us bro and that they dropped the charges. Sh!t happens, you did what was usually done, you just got into a shitty sitch. That's what the rescue team is for. I don't think what you did was reckless, but I would advise not to clean your first few pieces off the belay especially if one is a bomber bolt. Just thank the Bird for starting Yosar and not some tool from the NPS.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag (Prow [not] in 3 days!!)
Edit to censor the word sh!t like I want to.
[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-10-10 14:58 ]
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 10:06 PM
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Ok. Er...
Necessary El Cap routes? No, I've done absolutely no where near as many as Pete and I'm far from being as accomplished as many of you guys out there. I've climbed some 80/90 pitches (some entire BigWalls others singles/double pitches) of aid in Yosemite and over 100 clean aid climbs elsewhere (not US). Around a third of these have been solo now. I definitely know my systems and have fallen quite a few times (only twice long falls). So did I have the experience? I think it's a matter of opinion when it comes down to it. No, I haven't got loads of big wall routes under my belt as many other people have, but if I was really that terrible I don't think I would be able to solo 11 or so pitches in 16 hours or feel completely happy backcleaning heavily on easier aid pitches.
I have to say, it's tricky to answer that one - you be the judge! I've spent many an hour questioning myself since and still can't provide myself with a straight answer.
The weather? I checked with the rangers at the wilderness centre and was given "sunny for the next two days" (ample time for me to do the route) and given "sunny for 2 days" from a telephone weather line given to me by the Mountain Shop. I believed this was a fair check. Should have may be looked on the internet?
Hope that helps!
Tom
PS. Glad the burn got better - it looked pretty nasty!
PPS. Pete's much more of a man than me because when I met him at the top of El Cap after he'd done Scorched Earth he didn't even mention his whipper fall that caused the burn until I remarked upon it! Pete - how did those photos that you took of us come out? Posted them yet??
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-10 15:08 ]
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spike
Oct 10, 2002, 10:13 PM
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Hi Tom,
I use the DMM Belay Master when I solo !!!
The plastic gate is used to prevent 'cross loading'. It also postions the Gri Gri in front of the harness in a consistent manner which allows easy access to feed rope. The locker used on the DMM Belay Master is huge and looks solid. I assume you tie a backup knot and then attach the backup knot to your harness belay loop with a locker. Did the rope come completely out of the Gri Gri and the backup knot was the only thing that stopped you?
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 10:24 PM
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The Grigri actually stayed on the rope somehow (only just though!) - as I became detatched from the Grigri...
Yes, the back up know was the only know stopping from the talus field below. When I came to a stop, the Grigri was 20 ft above me still on the rope.
T
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spike
Oct 10, 2002, 10:34 PM
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Tom,
You are soooooooo lucky !!!!!!!!!
I wonder if you had one of the newer DMM Belay Masters. I went out to their web site and saw this:
It is also impossible to shut the catch unless the gate is screwed up fully which is an important new safety feature.
The word "new safety feature", I know I can't close the catch on mine unless the gate is screwed up fully. Maybe the older models allowed you to close the catch without screwing the gate up. Info. from web site: Gate Closed 25(kN), Gate Open 7 (kN).
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mountainmonkey
Oct 10, 2002, 10:44 PM
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If you can post some pics (or email me) of the biner (if you still have it) and the GriGri. Was anyting else damaged in the fall?
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passthepitonspete
Oct 10, 2002, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
"Yes, the back up knot was the only knot stopping from the talus field below. When I came to a stop, the Grigri was 20 ft above me still on the rope.
Holy shit! That's the raddest f*ckin' thing I've ever heard!
Man, did you get a photo??
My rope burn has completely dried up and is healing well. Be disciplined: don't pick the scab! [It'll take about two weeks to form if the burns are deep - yuck]
Please let me state that I do not think that Tom was either reckless or in over his head.
He probably shouldn't have backcleaned so much, and he sure as hell should have had a screamer on the rivet.
So remember, kids:
Try not to backclean too much on hard aid, or you may end up whipping - and [at the risk of sounding like a broken record] ALWAYS tie a backup knot!
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mrhardgrit
Oct 10, 2002, 11:45 PM
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Sorry - no remains of the locker - you can go look at the base though!! (PS. I did search there a while later, but no luck ... would have been interesting).
I'll get a photo of the Grigri for anyone who is interested - might need a couple to show the detail... Nothing else broken apart from the rivet hanger and I left that up there on the rivet - so ya know where to find it!!
And.... to further Pete ... ALWAYS tie a back-up knot!! I have always been one to say "I won't happen to me" or "his gear only broke, because it was probably 15yrs old and he kept it in a bucket of acid..." - but now we know - these things do happen to me and it could be anyone next. Can't really express how glad I am that I took the precaution.
Tom
PS. And honest, it wasn't that rad - just a bit exciting - kinda disappointed no one got to see it all! If you wanna hear RAD - ask Pete about duct taping sky hooks to his hammer on Jolly Roger!!! That's balls - haha!
PPS. Respect to anyone who has or is thinking of soloing Eagle's Way as since I've been at it, I've heard a whole bunch of bad stories and epics about the route - kinda jinxed...
Laters
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-10 16:48 ]
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drunkenmonkey
Oct 11, 2002, 4:57 AM
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Tom
thats the most intense epic i think i have ever heard, i have to admit that i have, upto now, had an unshakable faith in my gri gri and lockers etc, to do their job properly but this really shows that nothing's 100%. my own recent intro to aid climbing simply solidified my confidence in the kit and i look back at some of the stuff i was doing in light of your experience and it makes me think i have to change some of my systems and ALWAYS tie a back up knot.
I have to say i'm glad to hear that you're alright and big respect for getting yourself extracted safely. i can imagine that there are a lot of us out there that would have probably just sat and whimpered on the end of the rope for an eternity before being able to do anything about it. glad the Park Service decided not to do anything about it. heal well and maybe i will bump into you in the Peaks again sometime soon.
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fishypete
Oct 11, 2002, 8:40 AM
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Great snappin' lockers and busted gri-gri's!
Gotta go with the Good Dr. on this one,
That is definitely the raddest thing I have ever heard!
Holy shit, I cant believe you are still with us. I guess the locker must have been cross loaded somehow - but I am not sure how that would be possible with the "belay-master" plastic thingy that should prevent it happening.
Perhaps the very thin contact point where the gri-gri touches the biner contributed??
I am looking forward to the pics!
It is a damn shame that biner was lost - that is an extremely valuable piece of evidence to figure out what exactly happened.
Cheers
Fishy.
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taxexile
Oct 11, 2002, 10:25 AM
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Tom - great epic! I don't think anybody here considers what you describe as reckless. You clearly knew what risks were involved and chose to accept them. Whether you were sufficiently experienced is something only you can judge. I guess that whenever you push yourself you are, by definition, going beyond your previous level of experience.
The thought of a crab snapping under these circumstances is very worrying. Although we are concentrating on the possibility of the Gri being unsafe for solo aid, is there any fundamental difference in the forces involved between soloing and leading while belayed by a second using a Gri?
I'm not an engineering type so I can't answer this question, but I have so far been comfortable soloing with a Gri because it doesn't seem any more dangerous than having some guy snoozing or picking his arse while belaying with a Gri. In a nutshell, during a fall, is there any more load on a Gri and its locker where it's attached to your harness rather than a belayer's harness?
[ This Message was edited by: taxexile on 2002-10-11 03:30 ]
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pete224
Oct 11, 2002, 11:48 AM
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Tom
I was glad to hear you're alright. I don't think you were anymore reckless than anyone else that descides to solo El Cap for the first time. It was necky and audacious but not reckless.
I did some climbing in the Valley with Tom in September and although I'm new to aid climbing and a big wall novice, I could see he was competent on C3/A3 and had his solo system sorted.
It seems to me the only thing you might have done differently given the chance, is not back clean that first bolt. I hope you didn't have to leave any gear behind (especially my #5 friend!). See you back in Sheffield.
Cheers,
Peter
P.S.
Good job to those involved with the rescue effort.
And Pete, could you post those photos you took at the top of El Cap when you get the chance.
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 12:20 PM
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Yeah, I've been thinking about Tom backcleaning the bolt.
Listen, kids - let's get this straight, K?
You must never EVER leave open the possibility for a Factor 2 fall!
NEVER.
IF the belay was set up as I am thinking, then backcleaning that bolt was an error that could have cost Tom his life because it set up the possibility of the factor 2. It was also dumb to backclean too much stuff, and the rivet should have had a screamer on it.
Tom - what was the precise orientation of your belay setup?
See, when you're soloing, your belay has to take an upward pull. Normally, if you're soloing aid and hauling a pig, you connect your lead rope to the top of the pig, and your pig becomes your belayer. This can introduce some dynamicism into your belay.
I should also mention that when I solo, it is my practice to put a screamer on the first few pieces of gear to help lessen the fall factor when the fall factor potential is highest.
However if you are speed soloing and hence not hauling a heavy pig, you may have to construct an anchor that can take an upward pull.
So Tom, can you please describe your belay orientation, specifically the position of the bolt, how your anchor was set up [for upward or downward pull], if you had a pig, and if you used it as part of the belay.
Note: I am not condemning Tom. Believe me, I'm the last guy who can cast a stone! I dropped a fricking pig on my last wall!
We just need to understand what happened, so nobody else makes the same mistake.
Factor 2 falls are extremely rare, and as you can tell generate horrendous forces, sufficient to break carabiners!
I think Tom is damn lucky to be alive!
Let's suss this out, and keep more of us alive, eh?
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 1:06 PM
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One further thought:
Tom, how exactly did you get rescued from so high up? Did they climb up to you or rap down to you, or did you get a helicopter ride?
Getting rescued from a thousand feet off the deck must be no small feat!
[I have yet to be rescued from anything, at least yet, despite emperilling my life countless times both high above and deep beneath the earth's surface. But I figure I'm overdue....]
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 2:28 PM
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Perhaps the locker wasn't quite closed all the way and thus was loaded in an open-gate fashion during the factor 2 fall?
Good move on using a backup knot.
Remember the U.S. Navy SEALs' advice regarding backups: "two is one and one is none". Translation: if you don't have a backup, you've got nothing. I know, we've got one lead rope and one buckle on our harness (or 2 buckles in series), but you get the point.
Actually, I've often mulled over some harness designs where there were 2 parallel webbing components using 2 parallel (and thus independent) buckles, but knew it would be a market flop.
Jeez, talk about topic drift... sorry.
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jds100
Oct 11, 2002, 2:43 PM
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A thought about a backup for using a Gri Gri: wouldn't it be possible to slide a piece of webbing through the same hole as the biner, and tie a triple fisherman's knot to serve as a sling back-up attachment?
And, I think Petzl might be interested in those pictures of the damaged Gri Gri, and the story of how it happened (might even get ya a new Gri Gri).
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Some more thoughts on this exceedingly valuable thread. Let me first note that I have no ill will towards Mr. Hardgrit and based on the info available I do not think he's a screwup, gumby, or anything like that at all. My take is that he's a competent guy whose number came up... and lived.
This epic reminds me of a fine post Pete made long ago. I searched but couldn't find it.
He made the point that disasters often happen not because of a single event, but due to the combined effect of multiple factors coming into play at once.
In Mr. Grit's case, he made the pilot error of too much backcleaning. Then he had the problem of a piece pulling (which may not have been his fault). Then he had suffered equipment failure caused by either a defective biner or another pilot error of not having the biner fully closed.
All these factors came together: (lead fall) + (exposure to high fall factor) + (biner trouble) = major problem. Any one of these issues occuring without the others would likely have never revealed itself.
This is like the engineering story of how the World Trade Center towers collapsed. The designers thought they thought of every possible threat, even a plane slamming into a tower. They thought of having a raging fire in a tower and knew it would affect the strength of the steel.
So during construction they had fireproofing material sprayed onto the bare steel beams.
But on Sept. 11, the huge impact force and bursting jet fuel blasted the fireproofing right off of the beams. The ensuing inferno destoyed the beams' strength. And the towers failed.
Disaster happen because multiple factors come into play at once. Minimize the factors you can control. Back yourself up for both 1) the factors you could have controlled but didn't and 2) the factors you can't foresee.
Again, great thread and thanks to Mr. Grit for his candor.
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 5:53 PM
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Gosh! There are a lot of questions to answer!!
Does soloing with a Grigri create any different forces as opposed to being belayed by your partner? Well, yes – but only due to the fact that your partner is spatially dynamic/i.e can move up towards you when you take a fall, thus reducing some of the forces.
I have a dutch aid-climbing friend who uses a pretty nifty system with lots of bungy cord built into the power point of the belay system. It’s all backed up and he tells me that when he has fallen on it, it has felt much softer than a simple “naked solo Grigri†fall. I’ll put a diagram together sometime if anyone is interested….
Yes, yes, this backcleaned bolt is an issue of contention. Should have signed onto this site with the name “Bolt backcleaner!†I have to admit even though I was going fast, I did linger to think about whether it was a good idea…. The bolt was pretty much at 90 degrees to the right of the belay and about 6 ft away. If I had clipped it, the rope would have ran from the power point of the anchor at 90 degrees – not something I was happy about as I construct my belays to take upward pulls if soloing fast and light (no – there was no haulbag). So the answer? I could have put a really, really long sling on the bolt and that would have eliminated this angles problem. But straight above (well, pretty much) was a nice rivet which I could put my beefiest rivet hanger on duct tape up. So, was I going to take a small risk (in my mind at the time….!!) and backclean the bolt, save the time slinging slings together or just step up to that decent rivet and clip that and have some nice angles going to my belay? Yep, it happened. So, there was the BIG error. I didn’t think I was going to fall in the first easy 25ft of climbing, and I didn’t think that a big rivet hanger would break. You definitely live and learn.
Mental note: I need to buy some screamers.
Can’t remember who said about the combination of errors/bad luck that lead to situations, but I couldn’t agree more. Things hardly ever go wrong when just one factor causes a problem. A statistician would just tell you it is a matter of time…. Think of all those days out when one little thing happens and it leads to nothing and you think “oh, that was lucky†– well one day, all those little things may happen at once…
Tom
[ This Message was edited by: mrhardgrit on 2002-10-11 10:55 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 11, 2002, 6:46 PM
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Quote:I didn’t think I was going to fall in the first easy 25ft of climbing,
Wanker! That's the time when it matters!
Quote: and I didn’t think that a big rivet hanger would break.
Wait a minute! Did the rivet break, or did the rivet hanger break??
Were you using the Y-shaped kind, which are supposed to be weaker, or were you using the supposedly-stronger standard elliptical kind?
Quote:You definitely live and learn.
You've got horseshoes up your ass, Mr. Grit.
The concept of which you speak is called synergy, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
The post to which you refer is the death of Joe Ivy - Mistakes + Synergy = Death. I cannot help but wonder how close I came to writing about Tom - yikes!
Quote:Mental note: I need to buy some screamers.
Like, I think you should write it down, eh?
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csoles
Oct 11, 2002, 7:24 PM
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FWIW, the Death at Coulee thread is related to this one. Göran is no longer with us most likely due to many factors compounding quickly. It's very rarely one thing that goes wrong which results in catastrophic results.
Personally, I consider the use of a Gri-gri for this application foolish (the forces on the climber side are significantly higher in any fall that is less than factor 2). Likewise hard aid without a butt load of Screamers seems crazy to me. But it's your life.
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-23 09:19 ]
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glockaroo
Oct 11, 2002, 8:41 PM
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Personally, I consider the use of a Gri-gri for this application foolish (the forces on the climber side are significantly higher in any fall that is less than factor 2).
Good to see you here on the board Clyde.
Regarding the above comment, how would you say the grigri is any worse than other common self-belay methods? Surely it's no more static than a knot system, the soloist, or the solo-aid. In terms of the simpler systems that most of us know about, the only one I can think of that's remotely dynamic is the Silent Partner, since it takes a bit to lock up and thus provides some dynamic properties.
Could you elaborate?
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Pete,
Thanks for the comment mate! Yep, BIG mistakes I did make.
No, I was using the strongest of all my rivet hangers (it's pretty beefy... and you know who made it - BL) and it was not the Y, as I know they're not as strong.
T
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions. I only have one. Was your back up knot attached to your harness via a locking biner or did you retie your back up knot every so often directly into your harness?
I usually tie off to a locker when jugging etc-I haven't done much solo aiding.
Pete
[ This Message was edited by: rocknpowda on 2002-10-11 15:31 ]
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:33 PM
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To address someone elses question about the effectiveness of a grigri on one end of the system versus the other: it seems to me that the force would be much harder on the grigri in a solo aid fall because there is no rope between the load and the grigri where as when used as a belay device the load is at the opposite end of a dynamic climbing rope which would "suck up" alot of the impact on the grigri. I don't know if this is correct but that is how it seems to me.
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mrhardgrit
Oct 11, 2002, 10:33 PM
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It's no worries - I just hope no one makes the same mistakes that I ever did...
Yeh, I tie in with a locking karabiner - I always use my newest and strongest for this task.
T
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rocknpowda
Oct 11, 2002, 10:49 PM
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Good thing that one didn't blow too!!!
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csoles
Oct 11, 2002, 11:18 PM
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Regarding the above comment, how would you say the grigri is any worse than other common self-belay methods? Surely it's no more static than a knot system, the soloist, or the solo-aid. In terms of the simpler systems that most of us know about, the only one I can think of that's remotely dynamic is the Silent Partner, since it takes a bit to lock up and thus provides some dynamic properties.
First, I'm assuming nobody is cutting the lip off anymore...really dumb. They all are essentially static, including the SP, but the Gri-gri has a much smaller contact area with the rope--the pinch point. This makes rope diameter critical and that decreases greatly in high stress situations. And we all know climbers have an illogical love of skinny ropes (ignorance is bliss).
Forces are always lower on the belayer side due to friction at the top biner and rock. It's a great device when used as intended. Methinks angels is the only reason Tom is alive now...use the rest of your life wisely.
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-11 16:19 ]
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-11 16:24 ]
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twrock
Oct 13, 2002, 3:56 PM
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(Just got back after a multi-day trip; wow, what a thread!)
I found it interesting that a number of us have used the same setup as Tom, the DMM belay master and a Grigri. It seems ideal. The whole point is to avoid cross loading, but it seems that cross loading would be the most logical explanation for the biner breaking. I have noticed that with some larger diameter biners, the Grigri can "bind" onto the belay biner in a non-optimal location. I have never liked that there is only one biner attaching the Grigri to my harness for roped solo climbing, but that's part of why we tie backup knots.
I do have a question for clarification. Isn't it that in a factor two fall you must fall exactly twice the distance of the length of rope you have out onto your anchor? In Tom's case, it seems at least some of the force of the fall was dissipated by the breaking of the rivet. What kind of "rating" can one expect from a standard rivet?
Regarding another solo belay device, the Silent Partner, does anyone else have the same concern about cross loading that I do? I am speaking about the pictures in the manual that have the two lockers with their gates facing outward and the SP hanging down from the bottom of the biners. In a fall, it seems the SP is going to be yanked upward and bind in a cross loaded position because it runs into the sleeves of the lockers and can't slide by. (Does this explanation make sense?)
(edit - See this post on the proper setup of a Silent Partner: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=19876&forum=40&0 )
Anyway, glad to hear you are still with us, Tom. I hope you heal completely soon.
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-11-15 21:56 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 13, 2002, 5:30 PM
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As per unanswered questions in previous posts:
Re. rivet - did rivet or hanger fail? If the latter, what kind of hanger?
How were you rescued specifically?
Precise orientation and position of belay and cordalette, especially unclipped bolt?
Man, my hands are still sweating over this one....
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philbox
Moderator
Oct 14, 2002, 3:23 AM
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Quote
Regarding another solo belay device, the Silent Partner, does anyone else have the same concern about cross loading that I do? I am speaking about the pictures in the manual that have the two lockers with their gates facing outward and the SP hanging down from the bottom of the biners. In a fall, it seems the SP is going to be yanked upward and bind in a cross loaded position because it runs into the sleeves of the lockers and can't slide by. (Does this explanation make sense?)
Unquote
Hiya Tworock, in answer to your specific question, no I haven`t found the SP to do as you say as it generally sits above the gates of the two lockers and will simply ride up to orientate itself in the best position for a fall.
I`ve found the SP to do everything it claims to do, smatter of fact I`ve found that one can indeed rap (albeit slowly) using one of these devices after unlocking the device after a fall.
...Phil...
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mrhardgrit
Oct 14, 2002, 4:17 PM
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Ok first ... I have come to realise that I’ve completely ignored an underlying issue on this thread... I nonchalantly answered q’s about the type of locking krab and then didn’t pick up on the fact I didn’t say that the plastic bit of the Belay Master wasn’t on the locker at the time (it got nicked). So sorry, sorry, sorry for causing anyone to worry about this unnecessarily - just too many questions and too many things to answer and think about at once. So, it most likely seems that the locker became crossloaded at the factor 2 point...
Pete - yep, did try to answer all your questions but, the RC server went down and lost my posting as I submitted it, hence the delay.
The rivet hanger broke, NOT the rivet. The rivet hanger was the beefiest one I had (pretty darn thick) and brand new (care of you know who...). It was not a Y-hanger as I don’t use them for critical pieces. Just the regular looped type, duct taped down.
The rescuer lowered off from the top, as vertically, I think it was only about 300-350 ft to the rim. We then lowered to the bottom of the route together on 1400 ft long ropes (two of them tied together to reach the ground).
The belay was directly below the copperhead that I fell from, around 10 degrees to the left from the rivet and ninety degrees to the left from the bolt (old one). The bolt was around 6ft away.
The cordalette was equalised for a direct upward/downward pull (three bolts in horizontal line).
Tom
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mrhardgrit
Oct 14, 2002, 4:21 PM
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I forgot to say.......
The rope was the Mammut Flex (10.2/10.6mm) rope - it's one of those sharp-edge tested ropes...
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bigwalling
Oct 15, 2002, 1:58 AM
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Pete, you don't backclean? I like to leave as few peices of gear on straightforward pitches as I can. I think screamers are one of the best things out there.
Pete, do you clip ever rivit? Or what?
You brits rule! You are really bold climbers.
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apollodorus
Oct 15, 2002, 3:09 AM
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Tom, glad to hear you're OK. You should take your off-time to write up your amazing epic/trip-report. And don't spare the details. Put the pictures in.
When I first saw this topic, I thought, "OH NO! Not Tom! That CAN'T be the Brit I met at the top of Scorched Earth. He was going to go solo Eagle's Way. Maybe he decided to do the Reticent instead . . ."
But, indeed, it is a small world.
For what it's worth, Dr. Piton soloed some of Scorched Earth while I did other things, like clean the previous pitch ever so slowly. What he does is attach the rope to the Pig as a dyno, and then backs it up to the rest of the belay. That way, he can haul the Pig about two feet when he falls. He is still working on integrating a hauling device into the system, so that he can whip-haul the pig up to the next belay (JUST KIDDING!) Seriously, though, the slack in the pig tether gives reasonable room for it to move. And the pig probably weighs about as much as a partner, anyway. Instead of a pure Factor-2 fall, the fall is a pig-modified Factor 2, which is much better.
I would guess that the locker was loaded sideways or on the gate at the Crucial Moment? Otherwise, how else can you explain it breaking?
Somebody should make a special locker for soloing that makes sure it's properly oriented in any fall. I can imagine using duct-tape to keep it in place, and after reading about Tom's (not so) Excellent Adventure, I'm going to do that for any soloing.
Oh, and just for the record, the Mammut Flex is an 11mm rope that holds 14 UIAA falls and one UIAA sharp edge fall. PTPP calls mine the King Snake, because of it's coloring. It's a nice beefy rope that is soft to handle and easy to knot and unknot.
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passthepitonspete
Dec 23, 2002, 11:01 PM
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Bigwalling,
I do backclean a bit on easy pitches, but I sure as hell wouldn't have backcleaned in the situation Tom describes. I don't backclean much because I'm basically a chickensh*t who prefers to avoid long and terrifying falls that can hurt me!
I also think this bears repeating:
The cause of the accident is in no way the fault of the rivet hanger that broke.
The cause of the accident was backcleaning too much on hard aid, not using screamers, and not clipping the bolt to render a factor 2 impossible.
It is no surprise the rivet hanger broke.
It is some surprise that you lived to tell the tale!
And I, for one, am glad, mate!
I personally use said rivet hangers, and they are ETS!
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crack_head
Dec 23, 2002, 11:07 PM
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damn NPS
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rockprodigy
Dec 26, 2002, 9:40 PM
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Here's a post I wrote on Gri-Gri's a while back:
"If you have access to it, there was a very interesting article in the latest edition of the American Alpine Club News. Apparently, a study was done in Italy on rope strength, one of the unintended results of the study was they discovered that Gri-Gri's put an un-acceptable amount of force on protection anchors because of the auto-lock characteristic.
The article claimed that standard belay devices (ATC, fig-8, etc.) are "dynamic" in nature, in that they allow rope to slip through, whereas a Gri-Gri does not, it locks almost instantaneously. That instantaneous lock generates huge fall forces (over 7kN according to the article) which is more than the human body can supposedly take (not sure if I agree with that...) and more than the UIAA standard for 'biners with the gate open! They even said Gri-Gri's were never intended to be used for leading because of this reason...toproping only."
So that kind of makes me think it is not IDEAL for hard-aid-soloing. Personally, I have used the gri-gri for short-fixing aid, and I will continue to do so, but I will avoid the possibility of factor 2 falls at all costs!
Let's re-cap: You were about 30' up with nothing between you and the belay but a rivet with no screamer and you were A0-ing up fixed copperheads?!
How did you not $hit your pants?
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passthepitonspete
Dec 27, 2002, 12:45 AM
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A better question might be,
"How did you not die?"
ALWAYS tie a backup knot.
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socalclimber
Dec 27, 2002, 7:05 PM
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The Grigri issue is an old one. I like using them for easy aid. A good friend of mine named Wally, who by the way has soloed every nasty route on El Cap, and then some, absolutely dislikes the Grigri for hard aid routes solo. His preference is the SoloAid. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to to discuss why he thinks the grigri is unsafe because I was in the middle of stacking a bunch of knifeblades into a rotten crack. Needless to say, my attention was focused on not getting my fool ass mangled.
As a general rule, if Wally tells me: "Robert, that's not safe", I take his word for it. He knows what he is talking about. I probably learned more from Wally in the 3 hours I spent on the route than I have learned in 5 years of aid climbing.
I'm buying a SoloAid!
Robert
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brutusofwyde
Dec 28, 2002, 4:08 AM
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First time I've weighed in on this thread. What a RAD story!
One thought on the gri/snapped 'biner issue.
I was playing with my grigri in the gym today, and noted that if the grigri is loaded when its position is anywhere on the spine of the carabiner, it can apply substantial leverage against the spine. I'm not an engineer, and I couldn't calculate my way out of a paper bag with a hole in the bottom, but i know that leverage is a force multiplier.
Combine this leverage with applying the multiplied force over a very small area of the carabiner spine, (Where the gri clips to the carabiner) and I suspect you are on the trail that will at least partially explain the biner failure.
I rarely (if ever) solo -- I don't like my own company that much -- but the lessons in this thread are more far-reaching than just for soloists. Short-fixing, h#ll, even jugging, tie them backup knots.
Talus is pretty unforgiving.
Mr Hard Grit -- Thanks for the facts, and being so willing to share the tale. Pete, et al thanks for the questions and insights.
Brutus
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copperhead
Dec 28, 2002, 4:27 AM
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Good point Brutus.
Isn't there a locking biner made by (???) with a plastic piece in the middle that keeps belay device and harni loop to themselves at opposite ends of the biner? I've seen them but never used one and am now wondering if something like this makes sense. ...or even duct tape, for that matter.
A clove tends to stay in one place on a biner so I'll stick with simplicity for soloing, though a Gri-gri is nice for tying in short while cleaning.
...where can I get one of those puke icons...?
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smallwallmonkey
Dec 28, 2002, 4:54 AM
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's DMM, and ..grit actually said he was using one but the plastic wasnt on.. That's a real good idea, buy the safety and not use it...
max
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passthepitonspete
Dec 28, 2002, 5:00 AM
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Interesting.
The locker upon which I attach my Grigri is this beautiful smooth-curved Bluewater autolocker.
I have a DMM locker that would be TERRIBLE on a Grigri - there would not be the necessary degrees of freedom.
Tom - do you think your Grigri was too tight on its carabiner?
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mrhardgrit
Dec 28, 2002, 11:55 PM
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It's great that we're getting so much dicussion about the grigri (esp' with the soloing slant).
Is there anyone else out there that has taken a large (25,30ft +) onto a grigri? Before the "said incident" I had only taken falls of up to 15/20ft and suffered no reprecussions. So... is the grigri not good for those big/high factor falls??
On the "too tight" topic, the locker I used was really nice and smooth and rotated smoothly through the grigri hole. I have noticed other lockers are pretty crap in this was i.e. faders lockers.
Tom
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twrock
Jan 2, 2003, 2:54 PM
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I took a 30 footer "onto" a Grigri while soloing. Unfortunately the situation was completely different than the one described here (actually I was quite fortunate that it was different). It kinda went "gear pops-fall-more gear pops-hit a ledge-slide off slowly-rope slides through the Grigri that never locked-backup knot jams into the Grigri-come to a stop looking up at the anchor with all the gear at my waste." So it was really a "slow motion" fall until I bounced off the edge, then it was about a 20 foot free fall with a minimal pendulum to a position under the anchor.
I think Dano used a Grigri in some of his jumps in one of the MOS videos. Was he trying to reduce the fall factor by allowing the Grigri to slip? Just guessing on this one.
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apollodorus
May 4, 2003, 8:03 AM
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In reply to: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's DMM, and ..grit actually said he was using one but the plastic wasnt on.. That's a real good idea, buy the safety and not use it.
Tom said it the the DMM locker that comes with the little plastic piece that clips on. But, then he said that the little plastic piece had been nicked.
"Nicked" is Britspeak for stolen.
So, the plastic piece was gone, and not an option to use anymore.
I've got a stainless steel locker that probably couldn't broken by a truck. It's heavy, but you only need one.
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justsendingits
May 4, 2003, 12:52 PM
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One of the reasons I like the SP is that you can use 2 locking crabs on it.
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mikeehartley
May 5, 2003, 9:31 PM
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With most soloist systems that I have used and know of it seems the potential weakest link is always a cross-loaded biner. With a silent partner indeed you can eliminate this by using two biners but the SP is rather large and clunky, especially for aid climbing. Whether its a Gri-Gri or other device I have gone to using a triangular shaped "delta" rapid link. If you haven't used rapid ("quick") links they are way stronger than biners, don't accidentally come undone, and don't fail when cross-loaded under the loads generated in climbing. A 10mm delta link used in conjunction with a sit/chest harness and a gri-gri (GG) stays oriented for the triaxial loading that develops when a biner would get pulled in bad ways. The use of a chest harness keeps the belay device up higher and not banging (ouch!) down around your crotch. The trade off is it's slightly heavier than a biner and slower to unlock but for me the trade off is well worth it.
The note earlier in the thread about the GG developing higher loads on the anchors due to its static nature is a good point but one that any soloist (with any thought of falling) should be planning for anyhow. Using some system for reducing the load on the anchor (screamers, etc) is always prudent with soloist systems.
With the above in mind, and of course (!) using backup knots, I think the GG is as fine a soloist device as any. All have limitations and none is the champ for at all thangs - hard aid, mixed aid, fast freeclimbing.
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passthepitonspete
Jun 10, 2003, 4:11 AM
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Holy frig! Another busted rivet hanger!
OK, get this - I'm standing on this hook with a rivet no lower than at my feet. There is even a Screamer on the rivet.
The hook pops, and I whip onto the [rivet] - the Screamer fully deploys with a super-soft catch, and the rivet hanger still breaks! I couldn't believe it. Thank goodness the Alien beneath it held, or I'd have sailed big time. [Gads, my hands are getting sweaty at the thought...]
At any rate, as far as I am aware, this rivet hanger was made by the same manufacturer as that of mrhardgrit's, and I just wondered if anyone else's rivet hangers have busted? Certainly Tom's near-factor-two fall out might be expected to bust a hanger, but not mine, or so I should think. I've never had gear fail at such a low force, with the exception of a Pika head that blew on the A5 Death Pitch of Reticent Wall, thus proving that you CAN fall on New Wave A5, and live to tell the tale.
I love the heads that this manufacturer makes, but I'm wondering if I should chuck the rivet hangers? Thoughts?
Cheers,
Pete
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rgaribotti
Aug 29, 2003, 6:07 PM
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In Accidents of North American Mountaineering 2003 I came across a report of an accident that Tom Randall had while rope soloing on el Cap. The report has a link to this forum where the subject has been getting discussed . Perhaps this matter has been adressed already (I havent read all the postings), but I wanted to make a couple of suggestions.
Tom had binner failure due to cross axis loading (most likely, or at least that what he thought happened). To avoid this I use a couple of different systems:
- I clip the Grigri to the harness with a D shaped multidirectional quicklink (maillon rapide). The ones from Petzl (aluminum) are best (sorry dont have the product number here with me, but if you look through their site or catalog you should be able to find it). This will spare you of the possibility of having a carabinner failure, as these quicklinks are very strong and multidirectional.
- Clipping the rope to the belay with a shock absorber is a must also, specially considering that the Grigri is largely static. I dont use a screamer but a "via Ferrata" style shock absorber. This latter one will absorb more energy and is a little smoother. The one I use is from Kong, product number 806 KISA (Kong Imact Shock Absorber). You can find it easly in europe, or might be able to order it from the distributor in the US. It is a plate with a carabiner size hole and six rope size holes. You can thread your lead line directly through it, and leave 2 meters (or more) on the opposite side of it with a knot in the end. Unfortunatedly progressive shock absorbers dont exist (these would be the best kind, ones that as you pull progresively provide more friction).
It was good that Tom had doublebacked by clipping himself into the rope, but to avoid what happened to him it will be enough to use the multidirectional quicklink. The shock absorber in the belay might have helped as well. In Tom's defense he claims to have lost before the climb the plastic piece that helps keep the DMM Belay Master locking binner he was using up right, therefore inhibiting it from getting cross loaded like it happened. For those that might be using this system or might want to use it in the future a D shaped quicklink will still be safer than the DMM Belay Master locking binner with the plastic piece and all.
In the NPS commets regarding this report John Dill (from Park Service) writes that "our main issue, however, is not his choice of belay or protection technique, but his preparation for surviving on El Cap in case he were stranded in bad weather...". So it appears that the decision to prosecute which is being talked about in this forum might have not been related at all with the use or non use of a Grigri.
I personally think that the Grigri is very safe for rope soloing, that if one takes the necesary precautions (quicklink, shock-absorber, backup knot, etc) and modifies it carefully (dont cut too much of it otherwise the rope can go under the cam which is sharp as a knife).
For what it is worth,
Rolo
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towsonclimber
Feb 15, 2005, 6:24 AM
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Bigdan use a friggin device there is a reason the world switched over from just using ropes and webbing
and that reason is
ding ding ding
SAFTY
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trailbound71
Dec 26, 2008, 10:06 PM
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I am 6'8"weigh 250lbs and I have used both the soloist and clove for self belay. I would like to try the grigri method and was wondering if any one know if its possible for a grigri to pinch a rope hard enough to sever it?
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rockforlife
Dec 27, 2008, 12:50 AM
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trailbound71 wrote: I am 6'8"weigh 250lbs and I have used both the soloist and clove for self belay. I would like to try the grigri method and was wondering if any one know if its possible for a grigri to pinch a rope hard enough to sever it?
Yes if you solo like this you will DIE!!!111
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Gmburns2000
Dec 27, 2008, 2:55 AM
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trailbound71 wrote: I am 6'8"weigh 250lbs and I have used both the soloist and clove for self belay. I would like to try the grigri method and was wondering if any one know if its possible for a grigri to pinch a rope hard enough to sever it?
Holy effn thread revival.
Wonder if the guy ever went to jail.
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HIGHER_CLIMBER
Dec 29, 2008, 6:58 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Holy effn thread revival. Wonder if the guy ever went to jail.
i doubt it. he says all charges were dropped 2 days after the incident. crazy thread.
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jmvc
Dec 30, 2008, 8:05 PM
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trailbound71 wrote: I am 6'8"weigh 250lbs and I have used both the soloist and clove for self belay. I would like to try the grigri method and was wondering if any one know if its possible for a grigri to pinch a rope hard enough to sever it?
I am no expert, having soloed perhaps 500 pitches in my whole life, all with a gri gri, but I would not be concerned in the least about the gri gri cutting the rope.
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tarsier
Jan 14, 2009, 3:59 PM
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Hard core.
This thread has been sort of scary to read for someone who solos with a grigri.
Based on the way that the carabiner broke, what is your opinion of the DMM carabiner as part of a GriGri solo system if the plastic keeper is in place?
Thanks for the insight - Jim
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the_climber
Jan 14, 2009, 5:24 PM
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You can rig the DMM belay master in a good way. My preference would be to use some sort of locating gimic, ie stopers, to keep it from floating around. I know of a number of folks using SS malions (petzl ones I think) too.
I use the Belay master on the eddy in a similar set up to Healyje.
As always Roped soloing is a very personal thing, EVERYTHING is on you.
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moof
Jan 14, 2009, 11:26 PM
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I use the quick link for my gri-gri for sure, I think it's a 6mm one. I've only taken one good whipper with this setup (fell past the anchor, maybe a 40'-50' fall). I very much like backup knots...
I never tried the belay-master, but with normal lockers (attache) I frequently noticed my gri-gri was sitting in goofy orientations that would not be healthy for the biner should I fall, so I switched to the quick link.
Your mileage may vary.
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