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quietmonk
Feb 2, 2005, 6:35 AM
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I was climbing in South Platte last weekend, and I took a short twelve foot fall near the top of the pitch. To my suprise, my new silver alien ripped apart. The cable that is connected to the top part of the cam totally ripped out of place, and the small cables going the cams pulled apart. Needless to say, the placement failed and I fell to my next piece (thankfully, it was only a few feet below!).
Has anyone else had this happen?
Are aliens CE certified?
Are there any recalls?
I'm never going to climb on the damn things again...TCU's & Zeros forever!
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philbox
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Feb 2, 2005, 6:42 AM
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Instead of whingeing here on rc you should pack the item up and send it back to the manufacturer via registered post with a full explanation of the circumstances of the failure. After that I would expect them to commit to some sort of action for you. This site would be most indebted to you if you reported back to us how well they treated you.
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kcrag
Feb 2, 2005, 7:09 AM
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sounds like a case that you could hire a 1-900 lawyer for....
hey, i just bought a new GREY alien (7/8). it has a little tag that says it's 'UIAA and CE tested and approved', whatever that means!. i haven't taken a leader fall on it yet. have any pictures of your post-mortum twisted gear?
as for my other 7 aliens... i trust them wholeheartedly and they have served me well.
-k.
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pbcowboy77
Feb 2, 2005, 7:31 AM
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My Fat ass took a 25 footer on a green and it didn't shatter into a million peices. So what did you do to it, Did you drop the peice from 30 feet, did you smash it with a hammer, or did you make fun of it being the new cam to the bunch and stick your tounge out at it...
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 8:09 AM
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That's a pretty strong and imflammatory thread title you've got going there. Not to say a badly assembled piece can't get through manufacturing - they can. But you don't give any details of the placement. Was it good and solid? Did it walk to too wide a spot and blow the cams back? Was it actually in uncammed like a stopper? Details and a picture please...
And as was said, ship it back to CCH with a detailed description of the incident and don't leave anything out. Again, it could be a badly manufactured piece that got out, but it's hard to tell from what little you're leaving us to go on here.
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josephgdawson
Feb 2, 2005, 8:11 AM
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Calling the original post whining is absurd. I am glad he posted it.
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peroxide
Feb 2, 2005, 9:38 AM
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Before you send it to CCH etc.
Do all of us here a favor by doing just one thing:
SHOW US SOME PHOTOS.
You will get all the engineers out of the woodwork (like myself) to analyze the cam as best as possible in this wacky internet medium.
Show the point of failure from several angles and any macro closeups of the metal in strong light would be great.
I definitely need to see a photo since I have never heard of this happening.
Cheers,
P
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wormly81
Feb 2, 2005, 12:06 PM
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CCH aliens are dangerous. Once youve bought one your going to buy more.....
While I may be terribly wrong, what you describe sounds suspect. The small cables going to the cams are not load bearing. Unlike a BD cam that can be used in a passive manner, the smaller aliens have no cam stops or similar method for limiting cam travel.
I would definitely get in touch with CCH, I am positive that they are more concerned about this than anyone else. Also keep in mind that hundreds of leader falls were caught by aliens in the last year and undoubtedly there are people who swear that "this alien saved my life".
Interesting though,
Jeff
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kyhangdog
Feb 2, 2005, 12:06 PM
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This is the second time I've heard of an Alien failing. The first was posted on this site, I believe, and occurred in Australia. Anyone know of Metolius TCU failures?
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gunkjunkie
Feb 2, 2005, 1:57 PM
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The gear failure you were referring to seemed to be pilot error, rather than a failure of the gear. I believe the accident you were referring to was the young woman who placed a black alien in a crack that was just a little bit too large and the peice pulled when she fell (There is a detailed report on the incident in the site archives somewhere.). The placements of the smaller aliens (blue and black and green) need to be made correctly and inspected.
I have led trad routes for 3 seasons and my husband has led trad routes for 8 seasons and neither of us have ever had an alien fail or pull.
Without more information (photos and a detailed incident report) about the original poster's accident and alleged gear failure - I would assume the problem is with how the gear was placed - not with the piece itself.
Deirdre
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glyrocks
Feb 2, 2005, 1:57 PM
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I had the cable on an Alien pull off a cam when I took a 15 foot fall on it. It was placed rather shallow, so I don't understand why. I would expect a shallow placement to just pop out, not break. I suspect the shallow placement part isn't causative; breaking had something to do with some other characteristic of the placement.
(edit: typo police)
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hello_heino
Feb 2, 2005, 2:05 PM
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All climbing gear is dangerous. Perhaps you should take up reading, but I have heard that people sometimes get paper cuts....
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jammer
Feb 2, 2005, 2:14 PM
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In reply to: I was climbing in South Platte last weekend, and I took a short twelve foot fall near the top of the pitch. To my suprise, my new silver alien ripped apart. The cable that is connected to the top part of the cam totally ripped out of place, and the small cables going the cams pulled apart. Needless to say, the placement failed and I fell to my next piece (thankfully, it was only a few feet below!). Has anyone else had this happen? Are aliens CE certified? Are there any recalls? I'm never going to climb on the damn things again...TCU's & Zeros forever!
If you don't want to climb on them any more, what do you have left for gear and what will you be asking for them?
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fire_eyes
Feb 2, 2005, 2:40 PM
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You know, common sense isn't so common anymore. Hold an alien cam and a BD C4 in your two hands. Look 'em over good. Then, cam and uncam them. See what you think about the differences you notice.
I noticed that the friggin alien looked like my dumb, red-neck uncle Buck built it in his garage workshop, while the C4 actually looks like something you'd feel safer climbing with. I also noticed that in the smaller sizes (the ones everyone seems to like so much) that the cam wire (that's right, just one for each side...not independant controls for all 4) can slide so far that you can over cam the thing with your hand. Ugh.
Just yesterday I returned the 5 aliens I bought at REI and exchanged them for 7 (more) new C4 Camalots.
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buckyllama
Feb 2, 2005, 2:51 PM
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In reply to: You know, common sense isn't so common anymore. Hold an alien cam and a BD C4 in your two hands. Look 'em over good. Then, cam and uncam them. See what you think about the differences you notice. I noticed that the friggin alien looked like my dumb, red-neck uncle Buck built it in his garage workshop, while the C4 actually looks like something you'd feel saf er climbing with. I also noticed that in the smaller sizes (the ones everyone seems to like so much) that the cam wire (that's right, just one for each side...not independant controls for all 4) can slide so far that you can over cam the thing with your hand. Ugh. Just yesterday I returned the 5 aliens I bought at REI and exchanged them for 7 (more) new C4 Camalots.
Strawman
Just because something looks crude doesn't mean that it functions poorly. And just because something is polished and annodized and has all sorts of lovely molded plastic bits doesn't mean it functions well. Aliens are very sophisticated little numbers with their concealed springs allowing a narrower head and sleeve triggers allowing a more flexable cable. They aren't annodized but, since that serves no purpose anyway, who cares?
As to the original poster's problem; I agree, take a lot of good pictures and post em up. Then send the unit back to the manuf. It's entirely possible that it was a manufacturing error. It's entirely possible that it was a freak chance or user error. Without more data no one will ever know.
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fire_eyes
Feb 2, 2005, 3:05 PM
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concealed springs? When was the last time you looked at your alien? On the red one I am holding in my hand (yep, I still have one more to get rid of) those springs hang partially out of the slit in each cam that runs to the axel. Partly concealed. Oh, and the wire which does cam the alien, is about 1/2 the diameter of the wire which cams the BD C4. And, it is not close welded. Just bent after the insertion point.
Just my opinion and observation. Take it or don't. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
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cedk
Feb 2, 2005, 3:06 PM
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I would like to second Bucky. Fire_eyes: you couldn't be more wrong. When you say something that stupid it really compromises your credibility.
Thanks also for abusing REI's policy and helping to kick up the price on all merchandise in that store.
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fire_eyes
Feb 2, 2005, 3:11 PM
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It's also a matter of trusting your gear, that's all. I didn't proport to be an expert, or to say that all aliens don't work and no one should climb on them. I said I don't like them, and I said why.
If that compromises my credibility, then fine.
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cedk
Feb 2, 2005, 3:12 PM
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The smart thing to do would be to keep that red alien on your rack. In a shallow crack it's way better than the pretty purple camalot you replaced it with.
Some day you'll understand this.
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vegastradguy
Feb 2, 2005, 3:12 PM
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actually, have a closer look at your C4's. you'll note that, like the Aliens, they have one wire controlling two cams- they just hide it better than the Aliens do.
the springs are not concealed, they're internal. this allows them to fit into smaller placements (they will go in a pin-scar where a BD cannot). yes, they do stick out a bit, but that doesnt mean anything.
finally, the wire that cams the alien isnt load bearing, it only has to pull the cam back. (also notice how that trigger works- its what allows you to use an alien in a shallow placement where a BD won't go....) [you should also note that one of BD's famous problems is their trigger wires.....]
below the #0.5 camalot, Aliens are a staple of my rack- i prefer them over any other small cam. however, this is not to say they are better- it just says i think they're better.
as for the OP- it sounds like the trigger sheath blew- which would, of course, blow out the trigger wires as well. of course, this is pure speculation drawn from not a whole hell of a lot of information. if the main cable blew- i would never expect the trigger wires to hold...
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nthusiastj
Feb 2, 2005, 3:25 PM
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You should send the rest of your aliens to me for "research". Since you don't want them.
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boadman
Feb 2, 2005, 3:30 PM
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After having worked at CCH for a summer, I would be a little leary of climbing on any aliens that I hadn't made myself. The holding power of the unit depends solely on the quality of the weld between the cable and the piece that holds the axle. Welding is more of an art than a science, and while David Waggoner is a very competent machinist and designer, a lot of his employees are pretty suspect. I would have more confidence in my redneck uncle Randy. However, the design of the cam (outside of the manufacturing) is by far the best of any small cam on the market. The new WC zeros come close, but don't quite make it.
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quietmonk
Feb 2, 2005, 3:57 PM
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The weld was exactly what broke! The placement was perfect. I'll borrow a camera asap so you guys can see the cam. Boadman, you are scaring me!
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angry
Feb 2, 2005, 4:05 PM
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I used to spend my time defending aliens. I don't anymore, I just know that they are superior to anything on the market in green through orange.
If the weld truly broke, Dave will make it right. Those boys rebuilt a red that I effed up just last week for free. They reslung a clear that I had scuffed the sling to threadbare for $4. I've seen them tested and they are bomber.
I've whipped hard on the black, I've got a buddie who took an 80 footer on a red. You got unlucky.
Spend your money on whatever you want, don't slander a good company based on your little experience.
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outdoorsie
Feb 2, 2005, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: After having worked at CCH for a summer, I would be a little leary of climbing on any aliens that I hadn't made myself. The holding power of the unit depends solely on the quality of the weld between the cable and the piece that holds the axle.
Whoa, now that's a scarey and serious accusation. Are these cams really hand-made? I'd expect precise robotic welders or something for the manufacture of this kind of safety equipment. ???
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radistrad
Feb 2, 2005, 4:06 PM
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Yeah, do take a picture I'd like to see it. I personally have over 15 Aliens and trust them fully.
But as many others say, "climbing is dangerous".
I bet you are glad that you did not run it out to that placement.
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fire_eyes
Feb 2, 2005, 4:13 PM
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Pig-pile on fire_eyes! I love it. Gang, these threads are for banter, exchange of information and opinions with your commrade climbers. I'm glad to be a member of the club. In my own defense, I didn't post anything that says hey, I know it all. Just what I think. Doesn't mean it's right, doesn't mean it's wrong.
John, thanks for your educated and civil post. I sure do look forward to climbing with you soon.
OP, we'll look forward to your pics. They'll be good to see. Thank you for your post. And yep, I'll bet you're really glad you didn't run it out on that placement...
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1800lotions
Feb 2, 2005, 4:20 PM
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One word "ZERO"S"............ They are twice the quality and durability, more "how many times do you have to wait for Aliens to show up at your shop because they are behind on production", stronger and personaly I think they are better in flairing scars anyway!
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slobmonster
Feb 2, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: After having worked at CCH for a summer... |
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boadman
Feb 2, 2005, 4:20 PM
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"Whoa, now that's a scarey and serious accusation. Are these cams really hand-made? I'd expect precise robotic welders or something for the manufacture of this kind of safety equipment. ???"
I didn't mean to make an accusation, but yes, they are handmade. I would guess that the WC zeros are hand welded too. I've taken 30+ foot whippers on cams that I made myself, so I definately trust them, but they idea that gear is automatically bomber is a fool hardy one. Even with a safety factor of 3, statistically a certain number of units will be faulty. How many cams has alien produced over the years? Place early and often.
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1800lotions
Feb 2, 2005, 4:21 PM
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One Word ZERO"S.........
Two Words Wild Country....
Three Words The Cam Company....
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angry
Feb 2, 2005, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: After having worked at CCH for a summer, I would be a little leary of climbing on any aliens that I hadn't made myself. The holding power of the unit depends solely on the quality of the weld between the cable and the piece that holds the axle. Whoa, now that's a scarey and serious accusation. Are these cams really hand-made? I'd expect precise robotic welders or something for the manufacture of this kind of safety equipment. ???
I too worked there for several months, that experience is primarily why I trust them as much as I do. Buy Camalot, alien has all the business they need.
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cantbuymefriends
Feb 2, 2005, 4:27 PM
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Wow :shock: . Just yesterday I showed my red Alien to an (non-climbing) engineering friend of mine, who had never seen an SLCD before. The first comment he had was "Hmm, I wonder how they connect the wire to the piece that holds it to the axle, and since it's inserted I wonder how they make sure it's a solid connection?"
Smart guy...
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piton
Feb 2, 2005, 4:31 PM
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yo bman
the braze joint is with silver braze? are cch stil using torch actylene oxygen? i did some testing for dave on induction welding which would be the way to go to weld the stem. you don't need a skilled welder w/ induction and induction heats uniformly.
note should always look at the braze joints to see if there are any voids. I have found one with a void. sometimes it's hard to spot the voids or if joints were not heated correctly.
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dingus
Feb 2, 2005, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: Calling the original post whining is absurd. I am glad he posted it.
Aliens are the mainstay of small crack protection for many, many climbers and have been for a decade or more. The thousands of falls these little guys have safely arrested offer mute testimony to the fact that Aliens were THE best and remain one of the best options for small crack pro.
So one piece fails due to unstated circumstances and now CCH Aliens are 'dangerous?' Take a look at the force ratings of the Alien in question, do the math on your fall factor (how much rope out, how far did you fall, etc) to see what you subjected the piece to. You may simply have exceeded the capacity of the piece.
I agree that its good to have posted this failure. I also agree the title is inflammatory and most of us who use and rely upon Aliens are not taking it seriously.
There I got that said without one mean word...
Yup, mail it to the mfg with a non-inflammatory letter...
DMT
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rob
Feb 2, 2005, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm
Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers (not that this is a bad thing). Basically if I'm standing 3 feet above my last piece and I fall, I'm in for a 12 foot fall. and that's assuming I have no rope out to clip.
(For the math and common sense challenged -- because I know the attack will come from somewhere telling my it would only be a 6 foot fall -- I am over 6' tall so if I am standing 3 feet above my knot is approximately another 3 feet above my feet)
I would suspect that 12' is actually a very common distance to fall when leading.
Rob
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 4:50 PM
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I would also be interested to know about whether the induction welding was adopted at CCH. But again, no manufacturer can claim that every single piece is perfect. There are no robot assembly lines cranking out imaginarily flawless cams - they are made and assembled by people just like you.
In general, and from what little I know about Dave and CCH, I have the hunch that he is basically a well-meaning guy who is holding on to things a bit to tight from a management and licensing perspective. That could be from an understandable fear or belief that the product manufacture requires his close personal supervision.
They appear overwhelmed by their REI contract, however, and numerous parties have offered to help set up iether off shore manufacturing and/or licensing deals to take the load off his operation in an attempt to break the demand bottleneck. I personally wish Dave would avail himself of one of these licensing deals but I'm sure he has his reasons for not doing so - they just don't seem like very good ones when you're trying to get ahold of a set of offsets.
P.S.
In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm
If 12 feet has become a long fall then standards have tanked on the on the Front Range...
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e_wire
Feb 2, 2005, 4:53 PM
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That's going to be a huge thread! I've posted something similar a while back and got my butt kicked by the CCH worshippers...
Thread in question...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p?t=35838&highlight=
I've remove my Aliens from my rack after the incident.
e_wire
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holmeslovesguinness
Feb 2, 2005, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: Pig-pile on fire_eyes! I love it. Gang, these threads are for banter, exchange of information and opinions with your commrade climbers.
No offense, but when you bad mouth a respected gear manufacturer, with no basis for your opinion other than the fact that you don't think Aliens look as nice as Camalots and a misunderstanding of how they are put together, are you really surprised that you got a negative response from some people? Folks get flamed for far less around here ;-)
That being said, I think everyone here is keen to learn more about what actually happened to the OP's gear. Without a lot more information to back up his claim it's total hearsay at this point.
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mattm
Feb 2, 2005, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: This is the second time I've heard of an Alien failing. The first was posted on this site, I believe, and occurred in Australia. Anyone know of Metolius TCU failures?
That Australian thing s was almost certainly user error in the placement if I remember correctly. In fact - I'm highly suspect of most "gear failure" claims because proper use and placement is some important and is extremely variable because of "people influence".
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cedk
Feb 2, 2005, 5:03 PM
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Lots of cams have the cables welded. All Camalots below red as well as all Metolius come to mind. It is kind of scary but I consider it a trade off for the flexible stem.
The original poster mentioned that he was near the top of the pitch so there must have been lots of rope out. Doesn't sound like it was a very high factor fall. Do you mind telling us how much you weigh?
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petsfed
Feb 2, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: After having worked at CCH for a summer, I would be a little leary of climbing on any aliens that I hadn't made myself. The holding power of the unit depends solely on the quality of the weld between the cable and the piece that holds the axle. Whoa, now that's a scarey and serious accusation. Are these cams really hand-made? I'd expect precise robotic welders or something for the manufacture of this kind of safety equipment. ???
Yeah, its a fun little shop. I think John and Josh (the real goons assembling your cams) would be quite interested to learn this. Talk to Dave at CCH, he'll set you up right.
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gunkjunkie
Feb 2, 2005, 5:14 PM
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After a quick overview of the thread just mentioned - it appears that the problem wasn't the gear, but the placement of the piece. Would you blame HB if you set an offset that pulled because you clotheslined it? As mentioned in the case of the man who died on Boston in the Gunks - pieces are tested for the intended usage conditions. It is your responsibility to know those conditions and to climb very carefully over placements that may be suspect.
Deirdre
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: That's going to be a huge thread! I've posted something similar a while back and got my butt kicked by the CCH worshippers... Thread in question... http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p?t=35838&highlight= I've remove my Aliens from my rack after the incident. e_wire
From the description you posted in that thread the problem was almost certainly operator error. Hard to imagine a clearer case of either a clear misplacement or a one of not really understanding the nuances involved with making pro bombers in what othwise will be a marginal placement if one doesn't do the "due diligence" required to make it good.
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 5:16 PM
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Sorry - double post from weird network problems...
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gunkjunkie
Feb 2, 2005, 5:17 PM
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After a quick overview of the thread just mentioned - it appears that the problem wasn't the gear, but the placement of the piece. Would you blame HB if you set an offset that pulled because you clotheslined it? As mentioned in the case of the man who died on Boston in the Gunks - pieces are tested for certifications using the intended usage conditions (Although in this case it does seem that there was some issue with the alloy the cams were constructed from.) . It is your responsibility to know those conditions and to climb very carefully over placements that may be suspect.
Deirdre
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: That's going to be a huge thread! I've posted something similar a while back and got my butt kicked by the CCH worshippers... Thread in question... http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p?t=35838&highlight= I've remove my Aliens from my rack after the incident. e_wire
From the description you posted in that thread the problem was almost certainly operator error. Hard to imagine a clearer case of either a clear misplacement or a one of not really understanding the nuances involved with making pro bombers in what othwise will be a marginal placement if one doesn't do the "due diligence" required to make it good.
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gunkjunkie
Feb 2, 2005, 5:20 PM
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After a quick overview of the thread just mentioned - it appears that the problem wasn't the gear, but the placement of the piece. Would you blame HB if you set an offset that pulled because you clotheslined it? If you want plug and play - do sport climbing.
As mentioned in the case of the man who died on Boston in the Gunks - pieces are tested for certifications using the intended usage conditions (Although in this case it does seem that there was some issue with the alloy the cams were constructed from.) . It is your responsibility to know those conditions and to climb very carefully over placements that may be suspect.
Deirdre
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dingus
Feb 2, 2005, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: Would you blame HB if you set an offset that pulled because you clotheslined it?
Thread drift... hey there gunkjunkie, what do you mean by 'clotheslined?'
Thanks
DMT
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gunkjunkie
Feb 2, 2005, 5:29 PM
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To me - clothesllining (spelling?) is when you have set a placement to protect as you are going straight up - but then you move to the side and put a sideward force on it that the placement is not suited for. I think this would be a problem with tricams if one starts a traverse without properly extending the piece - so maybe I should have use tricams in the example. Is this explanation clear enough? I don't mean that in a bad way - I've been told sometimes that I don't explain things well.
Deirdre
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 2, 2005, 5:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Pig-pile on fire_eyes! I love it. Gang, these threads are for banter, exchange of information and opinions with your commrade climbers. No offense, but when you bad mouth a respected gear manufacturer, with no basis for your opinion other than the fact that you don't think Aliens look as nice as Camalots and a misunderstanding of how they are put together, are you really surprised that you got a negative response from some people? Folks get flamed for far less around here ;-) That being said, I think everyone here is keen to learn more about what actually happened to the OP's gear. Without a lot more information to back up his claim it's total hearsay at this point.
Lord, you'd think she had said she didn't believe in Evolution or claimed that liberal's are unpatriotic.
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napoleon_in_rags
Feb 2, 2005, 5:53 PM
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Boadman, since you and several others on the site have personal experience with the manufacture of Aliens, do you know any signs of a poor weld we can look for? I just ordered a couple of aliens (they haven't arrived yet) and i would like to be 100% on them.
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boadman
Feb 2, 2005, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: Boadman, since you and several others on the site have personal experience with the manufacture of Aliens, do you know any signs of a poor weld we can look for? I just ordered a couple of aliens (they haven't arrived yet) and i would like to be 100% on them.
That's the scary bit about welding, the cable is inserted into the hole, and then welded. You can't really see the majority of the weld. If there are any voids around the head/cable interface it would make me uncomfortable, but generally I think that they do a good job. I imagine that this is just a case of bad luck, he got the one/100000 units that had a bad weld. One way you could test it would be to fall on it a few times. :-)
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climbsomething
Feb 2, 2005, 6:05 PM
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With all due respect, fire_eyes, you are FAR too much of a novice to be making statements about Aliens v. Camalots. You've admitted elsewhere that you've never even led on gear.
Just a friendly flame :) Don't embarrass yerself, a'ight?
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holmeslovesguinness
Feb 2, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: Lord, you'd think she had said she didn't believe in Evolution or claimed that liberal's are unpatriotic.
My point is that she might have gotten a better response if she had said something like that instead - this IS a climbing website after all ;-)
I'm no CCH fanboy, I'm as interested as anyone to find out what actually happened. However, I personally take everything I read on this site with a grain of salt, and I'm certainly not going to sell my Aliens just because of one unsubstantiated claim of gear failure.
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jt512
Feb 2, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: concealed springs? When was the last time you looked at your alien? On the red one I am holding in my hand (yep, I still have one more to get rid of) those springs hang partially out of the slit in each cam that runs to the axel. Partly concealed. Oh, and the wire which does cam the alien, is about 1/2 the diameter of the wire which cams the BD C4. And, it is not close welded. Just bent after the insertion point. Just my opinion and observation. Take it or don't. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
I hope that the Aliens you returned weren't the 4 smaller pieces. Those things will fit where no other pieces will. As to the red Alien, it's my favorite piece on my rack. I will place it in preference to the .5 Camalot (which has the identical camming range) any day.
-Jay
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buckyllama
Feb 2, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Lots of cams have the cables welded. All Camalots below red as well as all Metolius come to mind. It is kind of scary but I consider it a trade off for the flexible stem.
First I don't think they are welded. I admit I may be absolutly wrong here as I don't have any in front of me to look at, but I think they are brazed, and usually silver brazed.
Silver brazing when done properly can produce a joint that is stronger than the parent metals. It also has the advantage that it does not heat the steel in the joint up sufficently to destroy it's heat treatment, nor does it damage any of the fibers in the cable. It also may be used on stainless steels, which cannot be brazed with brass.
I don't consider it a scary process in any way and frankly I have yet to see an alternative that is remotely as good. But it does require either skill or a very good process or both, and visual testing is diffucult or impossible.
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boulderinemt
Feb 2, 2005, 6:12 PM
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wheres these pictures? i thought we were promised pictures :? i don't know. every gear failure i have been around has been very much people influenced. just my humble observation.
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tradklime
Feb 2, 2005, 6:22 PM
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For those who believe that their Metolius or Wild Country or BD are not susceptible to a similar type of failure are fooling themselves. They all involve a similar manufacturing process in one component or another. Further, all climbing gear has the potential for failure, albeit a very small chance, hopefully. Anything involving humans is not infallible.
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caughtinside
Feb 2, 2005, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: concealed springs? When was the last time you looked at your alien? On the red one I am holding in my hand (yep, I still have one more to get rid of) those springs hang partially out of the slit in each cam that runs to the axel. Partly concealed. Oh, and the wire which does cam the alien, is about 1/2 the diameter of the wire which cams the BD C4. And, it is not close welded. Just bent after the insertion point. Just my opinion and observation. Take it or don't. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I hope that the Aliens you returned weren't the 4 smaller pieces. Those things will fit where no other pieces will. As to the red Alien, it's my favorite piece on my rack. I will place it in preference to the .5 Camalot (which has the identical camming range) any day. -Jay
Hum, I'm just going to pretend Jay was talking about Petzl spirits vs. Hotwire biners. Him offering trad advice is just too much for my spurtard mind to handle. :P :lol:
PS--there really is minimal value to an opinion on a piece of gear which you have never placed while leading. Especially when you've never placed comparable pieces while leading. But hey, Camalots are prettier, right? 8^)
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dirtineye
Feb 2, 2005, 6:56 PM
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"Place early and often.", was already mentioned, but that's the best bit of advice in here for my money.
How anyone can tell that placing or placement affected this failure from the original post, I have no idea. There's no info about the placement to go by.
If Mr OP is reading, tell us how was that piece placed?
About poor placing contributing to failure, how can you place a cam so badly that the main cable pulls out? I could understand if the lobes were crushed like that one from the gunks acident, and I've seen one cam that didn't fail but had a lobe deform and an axle bend ( the guy who owns it filed off the mashed part and calls the cam smiley now) as a result of bad placing, but for the cable to pull out just seems like that piece of gear is faulty.
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robdotcalm
Feb 2, 2005, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob
You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert.
rob.calm
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: About poor placing contributing to failure, how can you place a cam so badly that the main cable pulls out?
If it was in fact a main cable pullout then it is clearly a manufacturing / assembly defect. CCH should be notified and the piece shipped back to them so they can examine the weld.
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wlderdude
Feb 2, 2005, 7:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Boadman, since you and several others on the site have personal experience with the manufacture of Aliens, do you know any signs of a poor weld we can look for? I just ordered a couple of aliens (they haven't arrived yet) and i would like to be 100% on them. That's the scary bit about welding, the cable is inserted into the hole, and then welded. You can't really see the majority of the weld. If there are any voids around the head/cable interface it would make me uncomfortable, but generally I think that they do a good job. I imagine that this is just a case of bad luck, he got the one/100000 units that had a bad weld. One way you could test it would be to fall on it a few times. :-)
So, does CCH test each piece to half of its rated strength like BD and many others do? It sounds like a faulty joint should have failed such a test.
I assume the term "welded" in this discussion would be more accurately described as "brazed." I don't have an Alien to look at, but no one would be stupid enough to really weld steel cable in an application like this (I hope).
For those who don't know, brazing is really the same thing as soldering (but with brass based solder). Being that the loading is purely shear (pull out), the joint's strength should's exceed the strenght of the parent material.
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robdotcalm
Feb 2, 2005, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: P.S. In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm If 12 feet has become a long fall then standards have tanked on the on the Front Range...
I speak for myself and not the Front Range. People have been killed in 12 foot falls. I didn't get to be an old man and still climbing by running it out.
take care, rob.calm
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ben87
Feb 2, 2005, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: Just yesterday I returned the 5 aliens I bought at REI and exchanged them for 7 (more) new C4 Camalots.
really? I've never known any gear shop that will take returns on climbing equipment once it's left the store.........huh.
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jt512
Feb 2, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: One Word ZERO"S......... Two Words Wild Country.... Three Words The Cam Company....
Four Words: You've Been Taken In
-Jay
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one900johnnyk
Feb 2, 2005, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Just yesterday I returned the 5 aliens I bought at REI and exchanged them for 7 (more) new C4 Camalots. really? I've never known any gear shop that will take returns on climbing equipment once it's left the store.........huh.
REI takes back EVERYTHING... the sad part is, even if the gear clearly hasn't bene used with the tags still on, it gets chopped to bits...
at any rate, to continue to get off topic i consider a 12 footer to be on the long side of normal for a trad fall. i usually will start looking for placements once i've passed my last gear, and hate to not get any in after three or four moves past it...
finally, thank you curt, your post was pretty much exactly what i was thinking while reading through this...
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jt512
Feb 2, 2005, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I was climbing in South Platte last weekend, and I took a short twelve foot fall near the top of the pitch. I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm
A 12-foot fall is not a long fall. If you're not overprotecting, it's hard to fall less than 12 feet.
-Jay
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jt512
Feb 2, 2005, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: That's going to be a huge thread! I've posted something similar a while back and got my butt kicked by the CCH worshippers... Thread in question... http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p?t=35838&highlight= I've remove my Aliens from my rack after the incident. e_wire
You've stopped using Aliens because a friend of yours had one pull out of a placement? What, if anything, are you thinking?
-Jay
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epic_ed
Feb 2, 2005, 7:46 PM
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YER GONNNNNNNNAAAA DIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Buch of candy-assed, whiney, sky-is-falling, ninnies.
I'm cutting in line. Anyone who no longer feels CCH Aliens are safe to use, ship the dang things to me. I'll trade you for some of my BD micros, and add them to my collection of 33+ Aliens.
Gear fails. CCH, BD, Metolius...whoever. It's a shame someone got a defective product (if that is, in fact, what happened), but it happens to gear of all types. A 3-Sigma rating and all the QA in the world doesn't reduce the chances of your gear failing to zero. The design of the Aliens are at least as robust as those of other cams on the market, and the trigger wires are much less of an issue than they are on the BD cams. And as for WC worship -- suck it. They fail, too.
Looks like we should all be able to get those Hybrid Aliens just about anywhere really soon. Heck, with the reputation they're given by e_wire and some of the rest of you, I might be able to pick up a set at WalMart next week! Good for me and the rest of us who have a clue.
Ed
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the_pirate
Feb 2, 2005, 7:47 PM
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Maybe by page 10 we'll actually see a picture of this ripped apart alien.
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one900johnnyk
Feb 2, 2005, 7:49 PM
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In reply to: A 12-foot fall is not a long fall. If you're not overprotecting, it's hard to fall less than 12 feet. -Jay
what exactly is "overprotecting" (you slip it in there like you have some objective definition for it...)? and what exactly are the consequences aside from not falling very far...
humor me and explain how that's a bad thing if you have the gear you need and you're not some asshat who's outdoors to be in a hurry for something...
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jt512
Feb 2, 2005, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm
Well, I suppose that that's an effective way to train endurance, anyway.
-Jay
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banzai
Feb 2, 2005, 7:57 PM
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This is a little off topic, but this one time I did experienced a unique problem with my orange alien: I was going to clean the piece out of a crack but when I pulled on the trigger the metal sheath for the trigger completely ripped out in two pieces. This didn't affect the integrety of the cam (the main cable was intact, only the sheath had ripped), but it did render the cam quite useless for the rest of the day. Back at home I managed to replace the sheath with my own version of it, required a bit of drilling and swagging, but the cam has been functioning properly since then and I am glad that I didn't have to replace the unit.
But I remained puzzled: why did the sheath failed in the first place? The unit was two years old and in good condition, I couldn't remember ever falling on it. One thing that I remembered was that the very last time I had used it was on an aid climb, I had used it as part of an anchor and the stem was bent at a weird, relatively sharp angle. While in this position, the unit had been weighted while the cleaner was ascending the rope. I can see how this could fray a couple of wires in the sheath, but it's hard to see how this could cut through all around the whole thing. One thing I observed was the the *nylon* sheath didn't show any particular sign of wear, so it's not like the rock sliced through the thing or something like that. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the trigger was pressing against the rock because of the stem's weird angle, and when the unit was weighted it somehow pulled on the trigger to the point of ripping the sheath. Kind of hard to imagine but that's the only reasonable explanation I came up with.
Anyhow, all this is just provided for information, whatever it's worth, I still like aliens to the point that I just purchased a set of offsets, he he.
F.
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cracklover
Feb 2, 2005, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: One Word ZERO"S......... Two Words Wild Country.... Three Words The Cam Company....
In reply to: One word "ZERO"S"............ They are twice the quality and durability, more "how many times do you have to wait for Aliens to show up at your shop because they are behind on production", stronger and personaly I think they are better in flairing scars anyway!
You work for them or something? To be perfectly frank, I wish you were right.
In the small end, I own and use Aliens, Zeros, MicroCamalots, and TCUs. I don't take sides. I have used and will continue to use all of them. I don't root for this or against that based on prejudice. What's the point? I just want a good piece of gear at a decent price - that's what matters to me.
But here's the thing - it would be great if someone made better cams than CCH on the small end, but they don't. Aliens make the best there is - unfortunately, in a small facility, but that's for them to figure out. As it is, I'd happily trade the Zeros on my rack for same-size Aliens. Seriously. I wish the Zeros were as good or better than Aliens, but for my money, they're not.
By the way, I'd like to see a pic of this broken cam, too.
GO
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elvislegs
Feb 2, 2005, 8:14 PM
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OMG THE INTERWEB IS SOO MUCH FUN>!1!.
there is far too little information about the fall, the placement, and the damage, for any of us to know much about this. yet we have six pages of speculation. it would be pretty funny if it weren't so common-place.
fire_eyes your comments are priceless. "common sense isn't so common" OMG! "i'm working up to leading." OMGGG!11 funniest thing all week.
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climbingbums
Feb 2, 2005, 8:33 PM
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i trust them with my life, and i know many who are on the same page as i. spend any time in the valley, and you will see what i mean. i have fallen on them, and i have some older ones.
bobby
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tradklime
Feb 2, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: This is a little off topic, but this one time I did experienced a unique problem with my orange alien: I was going to clean the piece out of a crack but when I pulled on the trigger the metal sheath for the trigger completely ripped out in two pieces. This didn't affect the integrety of the cam (the main cable was intact, only the sheath had ripped), but it did render the cam quite useless for the rest of the day.
A similar thing happenned to an orange alien of mine. I talked to the guys at CCH and they told me that they received a defective batch of the braided steel sleeves. The issue I had was not the sleeve ripping in half, but rather the sleeve separating from the copper fitting it attaches to on the trigger.
Anyway, I mailed it to them and they fixed it for free.
Good product, good costumer service.
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banzai
Feb 2, 2005, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: The issue I had was not the sleeve ripping in half, but rather the sleeve separating from the copper fitting it attaches to on the trigger.
F.
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stone_monkey
Feb 2, 2005, 8:56 PM
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I predict hordes of n00bs descending upon REI, newly purchased CCH Aliens in hand.
REI customer rep: "So why do you wish to return this Alien?"
Easily frightened n00b:"Well, see I read something on the internet and....."
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billcoe_
Feb 2, 2005, 8:57 PM
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Having one 1 fail at the wrong time could easily result in a needless fatality. I appreciate hearing these things via the internet. In the old days, US mail or word of mouth would eventually get the word out, but not as fast. Love to see some pics and further documentation.
I'm curious what CCH uses for methodology to check quality?
BD was widely known for testing 100% of their carabiners, for instance, to 1/2 of ultimate rated strength. Such a test will and does pull out an occasional cull which missed heat treat or some other critical step in the process. They are now testing representative parts to 3 sigma methodolgy, and they have accrued an iso9001 rating for the company. Testing and quality ratings are visible here. http://www.bdel.com/about/testing.html
I'm not dissing CCH, they have been sucessfully making Aliens close to error free for a long time.
Does CCH test at all? To what standard or methdology? Where is this notated or written?
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hosh
Feb 2, 2005, 9:05 PM
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well, I'd like to know more about the fall, the placement, you know, the "detalis." I'd also like to see a picture. Not that I'd konw anything by looking at it, I'm no engineer and I'm no climbing expert. Heck, I only recently started leading (I've got like a year of leading on gear under my harness). But I've got a few Aliens and when I got the new Gray one, I noticed that it was noticablly different than the rest (the axle looked like it wasn't fitted correctly and there was a little bit of a kink in the action, like there was sand in the lobes or something). Anyway, These things seem like they're more cosmetic than structural. The axle just stickes out a bit on one end but it's flush on the other. And I live in Alaska and glaiceral slit gets in everything. I've had to clean silt out of aliens before and it was no big deal. And about this orange Alien that had the problems, did the cloth sheath on the peice say alien on it or is it just black? I got an orange alien with an all black sheath. Just wondering, but I figured it was also simply cosmetic. Anyway, any photos from the original poster? I'd like to see what we're all talking about. It's like a bunch of blind men standing around arguing whether or not they were able to stay in the lines in the coloring book...
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robdotcalm
Feb 2, 2005, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm Well, I suppose that that's an effective way to train endurance, anyway. -Jay
Not so. It's an effective way to climb quickly. No hesitation and no quivering. No need to for strange warrior mental exercises, breathing techniques or visualizing. It's just plug and play.
vale, robertusPunctumPacificus
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quickclips
Feb 2, 2005, 9:46 PM
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So a picture of the cam?
And as far as the cable pulling out it happens. I don't know what sigma CCH tests to, but I'm sure its at least 3. Failures happen. Climbing is a risk. materials fail. if you don't like it don't climb.
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healyje
Feb 2, 2005, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: A similar thing happenned to an orange alien of mine. I talked to the guys at CCH and they told me that they received a defective batch of the braided steel sleeves. The issue I had was not the sleeve ripping in half, but rather the sleeve separating from the copper fitting it attaches to on the trigger.
That explains the ripped sleeve on the orange alien I have...
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the_pirate
Feb 2, 2005, 10:10 PM
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FWIW, the only cam that I've ever had a problem with, on a climb, was a #3 BD Camalot. It was a mid-to-newer style, pre C4 Camalot (if that makes sense to any of you). The trigger wire on each side feeds through a hole in the trigger bar and loops around a plastic tab to hold it in place. Well, somehow this particular wire had come off its tab, leaving only two lobes operational with the trigger bar. I still remember that sinking feeling in my stomach as I fumbled to place the cam using the trigger bar between two fingers and my index finger looped through the bare trigger wire.
Did I return the cam after that?
no
Have I ever spoken bad of BD because of it?
no
Do I still use that cam?
yes
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jcinco
Feb 2, 2005, 10:11 PM
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In reply to: I was climbing in South Platte last weekend, and I took a short twelve foot fall near the top of the pitch. To my suprise, my new silver alien ripped apart. The cable that is connected to the top part of the cam totally ripped out of place, and the small cables going the cams pulled apart. Needless to say, the placement failed and I fell to my next piece (thankfully, it was only a few feet below!)
BULLSHIT!
Which route in the Platte?
What pitch on that route?
Who were you climbing with?
Where's the picture?
T0+
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gunksgoer
Feb 2, 2005, 10:17 PM
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hosh - in response to the alien you bought that had an all black sheath, that probably means its one of the SL models. SLs have a longer stem and sheath (about 1/2"), and stiffer cable. All the SLs nowadays have the black sheath, but maybe they have just started using those on the regular ones too. im not sure.
I prefer the SLs on the all but the smallest sizes; grey/yellow and up i really dont like the sloppiness of the less stiff cables found on regular aliens. the extra length is nice too for deeper placements.
To see if your orange alien is an SL, just compare it in stem/sheath length and floppiness to a regular orange alien.
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couchwarrior
Feb 2, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Why do you keep bugging the poor guy for a picture of the cam scraps when only a couple of hours ago he said he would find a camera and post a photo? Give the guy a break - perhaps there is more to his life than 24/7 haunting of internet chat boards.
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jcinco
Feb 2, 2005, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: Why do you keep bugging the poor guy for a picture of the cam scraps when only a couple of hours ago he said he would find a camera and post a photo? Give the guy a break - perhaps there is more to his life than 24/7 haunting of internet chat boards.
I'm not bugging him for a picture. That, along with the others I posted, are rhetorical questions.
The OP is a troll. Clearly there isn't more to his life than cruising and trolling climbing forums. What better way to incite a riot than slander everyone's favorite, CCH?
Maybe I should upgrade to T1?
Maybe I should shut up, since its far more fun watching everyone get worked into a tizzy over unsubstantiated and unlikely events relayed by an anonymous poster.
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billcoe_
Feb 3, 2005, 1:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why do you keep bugging the poor guy for a picture of the cam scraps when only a couple of hours ago he said he would find a camera and post a photo? Give the guy a break - perhaps there is more to his life than 24/7 haunting of internet chat boards. I'm not bugging him for a picture. That, along with the others I posted, are rhetorical questions. The OP is a troll. Clearly there isn't more to his life than cruising and trolling climbing forums. What better way to incite a riot than slander everyone's favorite, CCH? Maybe I should upgrade to T1? Maybe I should shut up, since its far more fun watching everyone get worked into a tizzy over unsubstantiated and unlikely events relayed by an anonymous poster.
Yup:
Certainly worth keeping in mind that it is the origonal posters 3rd post on this site. :oops: :!: :?:
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1800lotions
Feb 3, 2005, 1:27 AM
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I guess that if you are from Boulder and drive a car that costs in excess of 30,000 you are the man... You tools are by far the bigget group of trust funder fu#$%# I have ver seen. Dude, you are from Kansas or anywhere but here and you need to shut the Fu$% up!! CCH is a cool group of guys that make good stuff. You are a bunch of College students looking for a chance to pretend that your activity is relevant...you have along way to go before your SH%$ smells like roses or is even relevent....
P.S.
The Boulder locals "we grew up here and are FROM HERE" hate you transplants and wish you would step off.... Colorado Proverb.
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cjstudent
Feb 3, 2005, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: I guess that if you are from Boulder and drive a car that costs in excess of 30,000 you are the man... You tools are by far the bigget group of trust funder fu#$%# I have ver seen. Dude, you are from Kansas or anywhere but here and you need to shut the Fu$% up!! CCH is a cool group of guys that make good stuff. You are a bunch of College students looking for a chance to pretend that your activity is relevant...you have along way to go before your SH%$ smells like roses or is even relevent.... P.S. The Boulder locals "we grew up here and are FROM HERE" hate you transplants and wish you would step off.... Colorado Proverb.
I'm confused does any of that make sense to anyone else?
Now u are for CCH?? Dang i coulda swore I saw you post "two words...Wild Country..."
:?:
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1800lotions
Feb 3, 2005, 2:18 AM
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AB,
I could care less about name brands you AP STATE trustafarian jack ass. CCH is a good bunch of guys and this is a point about people who have not played enough Hands talkin 'bout things they are not qualified too. Why don't you get your VW converted to BIO Diesel in Asheville and have Daddy send you another check! Thanks for saving our planet by growing dreadlocks and talking smack!
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vegastradguy
Feb 3, 2005, 2:25 AM
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:wtf:
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paganmonkeyboy
Feb 3, 2005, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: AB, I could care less about name brands you AP STATE trustafarian jack ass. CCH is a good bunch of guys and this is a point about people who have not played enough Hands talkin 'bout things they are not qualified too. Why don't you get your VW converted to BIO Diesel in Asheville and have Daddy send you another check! Thanks for saving our planet by growing dreadlocks and talking smack!
whoa
sounds like somebody needs a hug...
7 pages of reading, and no pic yet...the suspense is killing me...i'm gonna go climb...
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cjstudent
Feb 3, 2005, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: 1800lotions wrote: One word "ZERO"S"............ They are twice the quality and durability, more "how many times do you have to wait for Aliens to show up at your shop because they are behind on production", stronger and personaly I think they are better in flairing scars anyway!
In reply to: 1800lotions wrote: One Word ZERO"S......... Two Words Wild Country.... Three Words The Cam Company....
In reply to: 1800lotions wrote: I guess that if you are from Boulder and drive a car that costs in excess of 30,000 you are the man... You tools are by far the bigget group of trust funder fu#$%# I have ver seen. Dude, you are from Kansas or anywhere but here and you need to shut the Fu$% up!! CCH is a cool group of guys that make good stuff. You are a bunch of College students looking for a chance to pretend that your activity is relevant...you have along way to go before your SH%$ smells like roses or is even relevent.... P.S. The Boulder locals "we grew up here and are FROM HERE" hate you transplants and wish you would step off.... Colorado Proverb. AB, I could care less about name brands you AP STATE trustafarian jack ass. CCH is a good bunch of guys and this is a point about people who have not played enough Hands talkin 'bout things they are not qualified too. Why don't you get your VW converted to BIO Diesel in Asheville and have Daddy send you another check! Thanks for saving our planet by growing dreadlocks and talking smack!
What in the hell?
First off your first post about the colorado thing makes no sense. Besides the fact that its hard to read...what u are telling the rest of us that aren't from Co to shut up? I didn't quiet see the point in that.
It just seemed to me that at first you were telling us that we need to get Wild Country cams instead of CCH. You bashed CCH saying it takes long to get the cams. Then u seemed to go totally the other way in telling everyone who was talking smack about CCH to stfu if they weren't from CO. I mean i haven't graduated college yet but its not adding up to me.
And dude u can kiss my hairy ass. I drive a Jeep, not a VW. My ass gets up and goes to work every day that i don't have class. No checks from daddy here. I never said anything bad about CCH. I was wondering why you said "Wild Country" then jumped on people about CCH. I don't have dreads, actually my head is buzzed and about 1/4" long. And what does talking smack have to do with saving the planet?
My name is Aaron. I am a gear-aholic. I think BD, Metolius and CCH makes good gear. I like Aliens and plan to buy a set. I've also used and fallen on aliens.
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nicklikesfire
Feb 3, 2005, 3:57 AM
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I bet the orignial poster started this thread as a ploy to drive down the demand of CCH aliens, ensuring that he would be able to buy as many as he wanted without all the waiting, maybe even get his hands on some hybrids if things went well.
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sbaclimber
Feb 3, 2005, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: 7 pages of reading, and no pic yet...the suspense is killing me...i'm gonna go climb...
amen to that!
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oldfart
Feb 3, 2005, 4:41 AM
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I'd like to thank everyone for working so hard to give our sport what it's been sorely lacking for so long: The atmosphere of a good old fashioned NTSB investigation.
If someone could follow up with a metallurgy analysis, well, that would just kick ass too.
Thanks!
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campo
Feb 3, 2005, 5:06 AM
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This is outta control....
Grab the helmets..its flying pretty thick in here :lol:
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moof
Feb 3, 2005, 6:49 AM
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Aliens have a pretty good track record for me so far. My buddy whipped on my yellow, I've winged onto my red, and took a pretty good one onto my other buddies green alien. So far only one has pulled, a green-yellow C2 placement in a nasty horizontal flared pin scar that I failed to bounce test (I was sketched about the previous blue TCU, which also pulled), that was the time the green held me. Come to think about it, I've only taken one other legit fall, and that was onto a fat nut.
Aliens good.
My $0.02...
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peroxide
Feb 3, 2005, 9:57 AM
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I called this dude on the first page...
If you make slanderous claims you have to back it up with some details and evidence. I feel the same suspense as I felt during the OJ trial...where is the missing glove?????
"If it don't fit...you gotta aquit"
So.... in order of importance the quietmonk needs to get a little less quiet
1) Lets get some details on the conditions of the fall. What route, placement etc.
2) Get a freaking camera and take a picture of the cam
3) Lets get this info and get CCH to comment.
4) Or we "wreak havok and let slip the dogs of war" and have an internet lynch mob to get this guy to put a slightly more responsible title on the thread.
5) You know...screw it...I am going to go freeze my butt off and go climbing only with my aliens for pro...
T3 for getting this many pages with little to know response from the original poster....
If there is a design flaw or weakness in a piece of gear it is the company (and secondarily the customer's) responsability to bring light to the issue. However, irresponsible slander is just like talking about safe sex and abstinence and then hoping you got the discipline to pull out in time.
P
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murf
Feb 3, 2005, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: With all due respect, fire_eyes, you are FAR too much of a novice to be making statements about Aliens v. Camalots. You've admitted elsewhere that you've never even led on gear. Just a friendly flame :) Don't embarrass yerself, a'ight?
Too late for that...
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flagstaff_climber
Feb 3, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Read those little white pieces of paper that come with your gear, CLIMBING is DANGEROUS... even when you do everything right and the gear is up to or above standard CLIMBING IS STILL DANGEROUS....
Gear can and does fail, just because we like to tell our selfs that is doesn't. If you look at all the falls taken on Aliens versus the documented failure rate I would say they compare favorably with the safety standards for any mission critical gear in any industry.... But alas they DO FAIL.
Rick
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epic_ed
Feb 3, 2005, 7:50 PM
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Where the hell you been, Rick? :wink:
Ed
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billcoe_
Feb 3, 2005, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: This space available for advertising. Please contact Epic Ed Productions to learn how we can increase your retail or website traffic.
Awesome idea Ed while we wait for pics. I'll bite:
How much?
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epic_ed
Feb 3, 2005, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This space available for advertising. Please contact Epic Ed Productions to learn how we can increase your retail or website traffic. Awesome idea Ed while we wait for pics. I'll bite: How much?
How much ya got?
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jt512
Feb 3, 2005, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm Well, I suppose that that's an effective way to train endurance, anyway. -Jay Not so. It's an effective way to climb quickly. No hesitation and no quivering. No need to for strange warrior mental exercises, breathing techniques or visualizing. It's just plug and play. vale, robertusPunctumPacificus
Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion.
GOTY '05.
-Jay
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jt512
Feb 3, 2005, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm Well, I suppose that that's an effective way to train endurance, anyway. -Jay Not so. It's an effective way to climb quickly. No hesitation and no quivering. No need to for strange warrior mental exercises, breathing techniques or visualizing. It's just plug and play. vale, robertusPunctumPacificus
Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion.
GOTY '05.
-Jay
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jt512
Feb 3, 2005, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm Well, I suppose that that's an effective way to train endurance, anyway. -Jay Not so. It's an effective way to climb quickly. No hesitation and no quivering. No need to for strange warrior mental exercises, breathing techniques or visualizing. It's just plug and play. vale, robertusPunctumPacificus
Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion.
GOTY '05.
-Jay
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capcom1701
Feb 3, 2005, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: AB, Why don't you get your VW converted to BIO Diesel in Asheville and have Daddy send you another check! Thanks for saving our planet by growing dreadlocks and talking smack!
My dear chap, you are mistaken! The entire point of Biodiesel is that you can usually use it without conversion, unless you have rubber hoses in your fuel system, which is usually the case only in vehicles made before 1996. check it out. Help out America's farmers, AND Willie Nelson! What a great deal. Now for a GREASECAR, you need a secondary fuel system. Perhaps that's where your confusion lies.
jon
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gunksgoer
Feb 3, 2005, 10:07 PM
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i think quietmonk needs to suck it up and post that pic.
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bubba
Feb 3, 2005, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: ....I've taken 30+ foot whippers on cams that I made myself, ....
:shock:
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greenmachineman7
Feb 3, 2005, 10:55 PM
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To you guys who've worked for CCH:
Any chance you can get me a job there? I sure wouldn't mind a hefty discount!
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jimfix
Feb 3, 2005, 11:03 PM
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Climbing is dangerous....
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elvislegs
Feb 3, 2005, 11:38 PM
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i think it's about time this whole damn thread took loooooonngggg 12 footer onto a badly placed micro cam.
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stymingersfink
Feb 4, 2005, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm
must be an aid climber.
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johnhennings
Feb 4, 2005, 4:11 AM
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As a two year emplyee of CCH I was a little concerned by the title of this thread. We are a hard work group of individuals that take pride in making some of the best performing, innovative and SAFEST cams on the market. I won't deny that it is possible for one in a million pieces of pro to fail. Climbing is a dangerous sport with inherit risks.
If quietmonk is making a ligitimate claim, I urge him/her to us a call at (307)721-9385 and give us the full details of what happened.
I took whippers on cams that I and my fellow employees have made, and trust my aliens more than any other piece out there.
Quietmonk, we can't help you if you just post and run. Do yourself a favor and call us.-John
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epic_ed
Feb 4, 2005, 5:09 AM
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John -- thanks for posting. Fortunately most of us are aware of how to handle a customer complaint issue without trying to drag the name of a good company through the mud. And then you have other tools...
Quitemonk, please sit down, have a nice cup of shut-the-fuck-up and contact CCH directly about this matter. My offer stands to any of you weenies who have a phobia of CCH cams -- I'll trade you one of my rarely used BD micros for any Alien. Any takers?
Ed
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blondgecko
Moderator
Feb 4, 2005, 5:23 AM
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T4, just for the number of views.
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timd
Feb 4, 2005, 5:30 AM
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Ummm---I was just wondering what the hell happened to our spouting quitmonk? Is this not his thread? I actually think he's out buying more aliens
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robdotcalm
Feb 4, 2005, 5:46 AM
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«Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion.
GOTY '05.
-Jay »
That's right, Jay! you just gotta start thinking outside the box. At last, you got the idea
Excelsior,
robDotCalm
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robdotcalm
Feb 4, 2005, 5:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm must be an aid climber.
No, I'm way too young to aid climb. When I can't pull anymore, I might take that up. But it seems so boring.
Upward safely,
robDotCalm
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styndall
Feb 4, 2005, 6:03 AM
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CCH Aliens are dangerous. I have pictorical proof.
While I was reading the section about orange Alien trouble, I got out my own orange to inspect the brazing. The phone rang, and I put the thing on the ground and jumped up, accidentally stepping on the trigger. The result, a horrible heel flapper.
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~geist9/IMG_0391.JPG
These Aliens are dangerous, and I recommend that everyone keep them off of your racks and especially away from your feet.
The company will be hearing about this; you can be sure of that.
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ryan_m
Feb 4, 2005, 6:09 AM
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All of you claiming that Aliens are poorly built and dangerous are full of it. I've fallen on a variety of Aliens, from blue to white, and every placement has held. If you don't want your Aliens, I'll gladly take them!
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robdotcalm
Feb 4, 2005, 6:13 AM
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«Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion.
GOTY '05.
-Jay »
That's right, Jay. You gotta think outside the box. Glad you finally got the idea.
rob.calm
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cracklover
Feb 4, 2005, 2:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: All of you claiming that Aliens are poorly built and dangerous are full of it. I've fallen on a variety of Aliens, from blue to white, and every placement has held. If you don't want your Aliens, I'll gladly take them! I'd like them too. I'll pay shipping. Seriously.
I'll pay twice the cost of shipping.
GO
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mccooljc
Feb 4, 2005, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: Welding is more of an art than a science
Maybe to some people ignorant of the science of welding, but as a welding engineer, I have to strongly disagree with your statement. Welding was an art back in the 40's and prior, but with the Russian work at the Paton Institute in the 60's and on, and with Dr. Savage's work in the 70's, welding has become a thoroughly researched science. With the advent of fracture mechanics, and scanning electron microscopy, the knowledge in failure analysis and metallurgy has increased dramatically. Send the cam to the manufacturer for a thorough failure analysis and possible product improvement. Sorry for the rant, but statements like that are a pet peeve of mine.
Jason McCool
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: «Let me get this straight: Stopping to place more frequent pro results in climbing faster. Now that's a novel conclusion. GOTY '05. -Jay » That's right, Jay! you just gotta start thinking outside the box. At last, you got the idea Excelsior, robDotCalm
Just because you "quiver" and slow down when you're above your gear doesn't mean that I do. Nice try. Do you really want to get into this with me?
-Jay
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piton
Feb 4, 2005, 6:29 PM
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completely agree with mccool there's no art in knowing brazeing. plus there are fully automated systems that ensure proper braze joints. cch does not use these methods more suited for suited automotive co. ex Delphi, but I'm sure cch iswell aware of the different bond strengths between 45 silver and 56 silver
Jay5.2 must you always disagree with somone on every freakin post i'm right your wrong pity BS. warriors way i think that belongs on the gay thread sporto
yeah i got tons of endurance
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iclimbtoo
Feb 4, 2005, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I tend to regard a 12 foot fall as a rather long fall. If you regard that as a short fall, make sure you have a good life insurance policy. cheers, rob.calm Not to derail this, but are you serious? You must be one of the most cautious of the cautious climbers Rob You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. rob.calm must be an aid climber. No, I'm way too young to aid climb. When I can't pull anymore, I might take that up. But it seems so boring. Upward safely, robDotCalm
"You're damn right! When the gear gets below my navel, I'm looking for the next piece to insert. " - dude, let us know when you get past 5.9. We're all rooting for you.
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: Jay5.2 must you always disagree with somone on every freakin post i'm right your wrong pity BS. warriors way i think that belongs on the gay thread sporto
Hey, piton, are you trying to write something using the English language? As usual when you post, it is difficult to tell.
-Jay
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piton
Feb 4, 2005, 7:20 PM
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*useless information go to next post*
In reply to: In reply to: Jay5.2 must you always disagree with somone on every freakin post i'm right your wrong pity BS. warriors way i think that belongs on the gay thread sporto Hey, piton, are you trying to write something using the English language? As usual when you post, it is difficult to tell. -Jay
hey jay are you going to learn how to read or is that bald spot on the top of your head causing to much of a glare on your computer screen to actually see?? drop it already your wit is weak
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Jay5.2 must you always disagree with somone on every freakin post i'm right your wrong pity BS. warriors way i think that belongs on the gay thread sporto Hey, piton, are you trying to write something using the English language? As usual when you post, it is difficult to tell. -Jay hey jay are you going to learn how to read or is that bald spot on the top of your head causing to much of a glear on your computer screen to actually see?? drop it already your wit is weak
"To much of a glear"? First of all, what's a "glear"?
-Jay
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okieterry
Feb 4, 2005, 7:34 PM
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Although I trust and use Aliens, I would really like to know the truth behind the original post and I wish quietmonk would post up and come clean - one way or another.
If there is a problem with the alien, there could be more out there and the climbing public deserves to know. No one wants to hear about a fatality or injury that could have been prevented.
If the post is a troll and quietmonk lied about this, there should be repercussions. People should not be able to get away with lies that impact safety or public perception involving climbing equipment.
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piton
Feb 4, 2005, 7:41 PM
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*useless information go to next post*
i made the proper edits for you jt5.2 add something useful for once mr. warrior. your such a tool. go get laid w/out spending money :roll:
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crimpandgo
Feb 4, 2005, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Although I trust and use Aliens, I would really like to know the truth behind the original post and I wish quietmonk would post up and come clean - one way or another. If there is a problem with the alien, there could be more out there and the climbing public deserves to know. No one wants to hear about a fatality or injury that could have been prevented. If the post is a troll and quietmonk lied about this, there should be repercussions. People should not be able to get away with lies that impact safety or public perception involving climbing equipment.
What are you going to do, put him/her in internet Jail? Last I check this is a free country and we have a right to free speech. The original poster has no obligation to prove anything to anyone. The OP presented a claim, it is up to the reader to determine what that claim means to them.
Personally I do not get all the huff. Gear regardless of brand is subject to catastrophic failure. testing to standards such as UIAA gives the consumer a degree of confidence in the equipment, but that is all. Using the gear is the climbers risk.
What should be debated is not one failure, but if there are failure trends that will reveal signs of unsafe designs or manufacturing processes. Unless a trend is evident, this failure falls into the "bone pile" so to speak.
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amber
Feb 4, 2005, 7:56 PM
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terry - nicely said. if only i could vote today ..
In reply to: What are you going to do..
since rc.com is all about conspiracies and such, maybe someone will leak his IP, then all alien-loving rc.comers can track down the dude and whop him upside the head with our beloved aliens.
otherwise, if this is a pattern, perhaps an IP ban would be better. seriously, there are a lot of people who use this site for informative reasons, and people who go out of their way to pollute that dont really deserve the privy to post on this here free site.
and there IS a difference between obvious sarcasm (placing pro every 3 ft is more efficient) and posting false accusations (*cough* - libel) about the performance of a well-known, well-loved piece of gear.
btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm?
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: i made the proper edits for you jt5.2 add something useful for once mr. warrior. your such a tool. go get laid w/out spending money :roll:
Hey, piton, thanks for correcting one of your writing errors. Now that you know how to spell a hard word like "glare," you can work on the differences between "to" and "too," and "your" and "you're." If you can get those right, we'll move on to the subtle distinctions between "there," "their," and "they're." I'm dreading the point that we'll have to confront punctuation.
-Jay
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cracklover
Feb 4, 2005, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: I'll trade you one of my rarely used BD micros for any Alien. Any takers? Ed
Another alternative: If you've got the right size Aliens, I'll take 'em off your hands in exchange for Metolius TCU or WC Zeros.
GO
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amber
Feb 4, 2005, 8:09 PM
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PS. To anyone who is alarmed by this thread and feels that they can no longer love their aliens, please dont abandon them in your closet - this would be a wretched life for a worthy piece of gear.
In my ongoing effort to support and uplift the climbing community, I will take these unloved and unwanted pieces of gear off your hands, at no cost to you, and provide them with a warm, loving home.
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shakylegs
Feb 4, 2005, 8:11 PM
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But it is a pattern. Someone comes along, and posts a damning thread as their first post (quietmonk is different in that this was his second post). It gets thrashed around a bit, a manufacturer is slagged, the rc.com crowd joins in the hen-pecking party, and the op walks away with the satisfaction of a job well done, never to appear again (and a company's reputation sullied).
We've seen it happen it gear heads on several occasions, where, it seems to me, this thread belongs, if not the archives.
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nthusiastj
Feb 4, 2005, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: Maybe by page 10 we'll actually see a picture of this ripped apart alien.
or not...
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dingus
Feb 4, 2005, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: But it is a pattern. Someone comes along, and posts a damning thread as their first post (quietmonk is different in that this was his second post). It gets thrashed around a bit, a manufacturer is slagged, the rc.com crowd joins in the hen-pecking party, and the op walks away with the satisfaction of a job well done, never to appear again (and a company's reputation sullied). We've seen it happen it gear heads on several occasions, where, it seems to me, this thread belongs, if not the archives.
I don't know dude, doesn't seem like many bought into this Alien hype at all.
DMT
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shakylegs
Feb 4, 2005, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: I don't know dude, doesn't seem like many bought into this Alien hype at all. DMT
dude? dude! duuuude. You're right, that's how it usually turns out. Then again, when "CCH Aliens are dangerous!" is reflected on the front page? Makes them look bad.
You have to wonder, also, just who exactly refers to Aliens as CCH? Are there any other kinds? And then mentions which micro-cam, and which company, he prefers.
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piton
Feb 4, 2005, 9:59 PM
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*useless information go to next post*
In reply to: Hey, piton, thanks for correcting one of your writing errors. Now that you know how to spell a hard word like "glare," you can work on the differences between "to" and "too," and "your" and "you're." If you can get those right, we'll move on to the subtle distinctions between "there," "their," and "they're." I'm dreading the point that we'll have to confront punctuation.
dude correcting my grammar is just too easy to do i admit it. (yes i'm ending a sentence w/ a preposition).
what's funny is how you are (or you're) unable to think up anything original. you come correcting someone grammar over and over yet add nothing of wit. you must be miserable. it would be great to see you in a public setting to see how socially inept you are.
oh yeah hookes law says that you should stop the rogain it's not working.
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barc
Feb 4, 2005, 10:09 PM
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Why are people still talking about this. This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen.
Elliott
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: dude correcting my grammar is just too easy to do i admit it. (yes i'm ending a sentence w/ a preposition).
No, that's a pronoun, actually.
In reply to: oh yeah hookes law says that you should stop the rogain it's not working.
Rogain?
-Jay
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jt512
Feb 4, 2005, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen.
You must be new here.
-Jay
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dingus
Feb 4, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Dhuuuuude!
You're probably right. But just think, I bet there are at least 10 more people than before who know that the Alien cable is brazed. Some good tech stuff buried in there.
Later on BROUGH!
DMT
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youreup
Feb 4, 2005, 10:26 PM
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The first five times that someone offered to take the newly unwanted Aliens and pay for shipping were funny but now it's just getting old. That being said, I'll make that offer as well. In fact, I'll give my TCUs + shipping for anybody who doesn't want their Aliens.
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crimpandgo
Feb 4, 2005, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't know dude, doesn't seem like many bought into this Alien hype at all. DMT dude? dude! duuuude. You're right, that's how it usually turns out. Then again, when "CCH Aliens are dangerous!" is reflected on the front page? Makes them look bad. You have to wonder, also, just who exactly refers to Aliens as CCH? Are there any other kinds? And then mentions which micro-cam, and which company, he prefers.
Do you really think the slander of one internet post will affect the sales of a company that has so many loyal followers? I am betting that the people that make up the majority of CCHs sales base would read this thread with interest, take it for what it is worth, then promptly go out an buy another cam to make sure the CCH sales line holds strong :)
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caughtinside
Feb 4, 2005, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I don't know dude, doesn't seem like many bought into this Alien hype at all. DMT dude? dude! duuuude. You're right, that's how it usually turns out. Then again, when "CCH Aliens are dangerous!" is reflected on the front page? Makes them look bad. You have to wonder, also, just who exactly refers to Aliens as CCH? Are there any other kinds? And then mentions which micro-cam, and which company, he prefers. Do you really think the slander of one internet post will affect the sales of a company that has so many loyal followers? I am betting that the people that make up the majority of CCHs sales base would read this thread with interest, take it for what it is worth, then promptly go out an buy another cam to make sure the CCH sales line holds strong :)
Holy cow, you're right! I must respond to this thread by purchasing 2 new aliens today! :lol: :P
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shakylegs
Feb 4, 2005, 10:34 PM
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crimpy, I was using this thread as an example. read my initial post.
caughtinside, why would you bother with Aliens? I thought you were a true-blue sportard.
I kid.
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crimpandgo
Feb 4, 2005, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: crimpy, I was using this thread as an example. read my initial post. caughtinside, why would you bother with Aliens? I thought you were a true-blue sportard. I kid.
Shaky,
I was just making a joke as well. Wasn't really directed at your post specifically. Yours was just the last in the line. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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caughtinside
Feb 4, 2005, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: caughtinside, why would you bother with Aliens? I thought you were a true-blue sportard.
Ha ha! You know it! 8^)
"I warm up on your lifetime project, traddie" :P
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coldclimb
Feb 4, 2005, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: All of you claiming that Aliens are poorly built and dangerous are full of it. I've fallen on a variety of Aliens, from blue to white, and every placement has held. If you don't want your Aliens, I'll gladly take them! I'd like them too. I'll pay shipping. Seriously. I'll pay twice the cost of shipping. GO
I see your twice shipping and raise you five bucks.
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mistertyler
Feb 5, 2005, 12:03 AM
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Is anyone else here having trouble masturbating to this thread?
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chossdog
Feb 5, 2005, 12:06 AM
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So let me get this straight - after some 11 pages of posts still no photos save that one of the man-eating orange alien that grabbed that poor bastard by the heel?!
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omeier
Feb 5, 2005, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: You know, common sense isn't so common anymore. Hold an alien cam and a BD C4 in your two hands. Look 'em over good. Then, cam and uncam them. See what you think about the differences you notice. I noticed that the friggin alien looked like my dumb, red-neck uncle Buck built it in his garage workshop, while the C4 actually looks like something you'd feel saf er climbing with. I also noticed that in the smaller sizes (the ones everyone seems to like so much) that the cam wire (that's right, just one for each side...not independant controls for all 4) can slide so far that you can over cam the thing with your hand. Ugh. Just yesterday I returned the 5 aliens I bought at REI and exchanged them for 7 (more) new C4 Camalots.
Wow, we got a live one here.
First of all as others have said, things don't have to look sexy to work. I own both C4's and Aliens. Yes the C4's look way way nicer, but I am just as confident if not more so of the aliens. Look at the shaft on the C4, if you take a fall with a deep placement and the cable/plastic cable housing goes around a corner when you fall, it'll be super tweaked to say the least.
the alien will need a little bending and it'll be as good as new.
You should repeat this post to a weathered yosemite tradder, I do believe you will receive a tongue lashing as you should.
As for the failure issue, its inevitable that one will fail. Its impossible to make 1000's and never have one fail ever.
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dirtineye
Feb 5, 2005, 1:30 AM
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Fisrt question, Why am I posting ?
Ssecond Q, Where's the Fecking pic?
THird question, Have we been trolled? (and I am starting to think th e answer is yes)
4th question, JT, why do you care about how piton writes or how much gear rob places?
%th question, CLimbsomething, are you ever going to answer those other questions, and are you hotter than clausti?
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cracklover
Feb 5, 2005, 2:30 AM
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In reply to: terry - nicely said. if only i could vote today .. In reply to: What are you going to do.. since rc.com is all about conspiracies and such, maybe someone will leak his IP, then all alien-loving rc.comers can track down the dude and whop him upside the head with our beloved aliens.
Is it really? For me it's about amusing banter that's usually got something to do with climbing, and sometimes contains insightful or edifying comments.
But if drama and/or witchhunts are your thing, have at it!
In reply to: otherwise, if this is a pattern, perhaps an IP ban would be better. seriously, there are a lot of people who use this site for informative reasons, and people who go out of their way to pollute that dont really deserve the privy to post on this here free site.
Seriously? Seriously, this is a perfect opportunity for climbers to learn that people have a variety of motives for what they do, some of whom want to fool you. My humble opinion: we don't need more nannyfication here. Dingus is right, the OP got slammed.
And if it places a shadow of a doubt in some peoples minds - great! Noone makes a piece of gear that is guaranteed perfect. If some folks are just waking up to that concept, it's all good.
In reply to: btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm?
It's true that the one between piton and jay is a bit juvenile, but the one between jay and rob is one of the best things going for this thread. I'm very much looking forward to the next installment!
GO
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amber
Feb 5, 2005, 2:36 AM
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GO, we've really got to work on you interpreting my posts. :)
the first half of the sentence that started with "seriously" was serious, the second half and "btw" were, quite simply, my opinion (worth exactly the retail value you paid). everything else was pretty thick sarcasm, and i've had enough drama offline to last me for a while; i'm certainly not interested in acquiring more via the net. ;)
as for quality/quantity of censorship on rc.com .. well, i stopped being a mod because i didnt want to think/worry about it anymore. (see last sentence of above paragraph.) :)
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jt512
Feb 5, 2005, 2:48 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm? It's true that the one between piton and jay is a bit juvenile, but the one between jay and rob is one of the best things going for this thread. I'm very much looking forward to the next installment! GO
Amber has introduced the possibility that Rob might have been sarcastic.
The problem with sarcastically posting a stupid idea on this website is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from the myriad of equally stupid ideas that are posted here in complete sincerity on a daily basis.
-Jay
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gunksgoer
Feb 5, 2005, 3:07 AM
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although i believe this thread was started with all good intentions, a more appropriate title would be "alien cam failure", rather then a biased acusation. the current title is bad publicity for cch, and unfair. BD camalots have definatly failed over the years, yet i dont think theres thread titled "black diamond gear blows!!!" Pun intended...
p.s. POST THE PICTURE YOU PANSY :angel:
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onbelay007
Feb 5, 2005, 3:19 AM
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My friend choked on a hamburger once. Hamburgers are dangerous. Seriously though, cam failure is a pretty scary topic and it's good to discuss precisely what happened.
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locker
Feb 5, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #175 of 211
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Aliens, BD, Metolious, HB, Trango, Wild Country, even Robots, I own and use them all most every day and have yet to have a single problem with any of them. I have been climbing for many years. It happens on occassion to some as crud as someone posted already sometimes gets through. But in general, it is usually user failure and rarely the gear..........don't be affraid of proven gear....Aliens rule!
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billcoe_
Feb 6, 2005, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i made the proper edits for you jt5.2 add something useful for once mr. warrior. your such a tool. go get laid w/out spending money :roll: Hey, piton, thanks for correcting one of your writing errors. Now that you know how to spell a hard word like "glare," you can work on the differences between "to" and "too," and "your" and "you're." If you can get those right, we'll move on to the subtle distinctions between "there," "their," and "they're." I'm dreading the point that we'll have to confront punctuation. -Jay
Who was it that said this thread was useless? Sometimes, if one sifts through enough dung, one can, although it is rare, find a diamond. 10 pages and here is it!
Thanks Jay (Jt5.2)! :lol: :wink: :roll:
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dingus
Feb 6, 2005, 4:14 PM
Post #177 of 211
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In reply to: The problem with sarcastically posting a stupid idea on this website is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from the myriad of equally stupid ideas that are posted here in complete sincerity on a daily basis. -Jay
That's what those stupid ass smiley faces are for... to denote stupid assed sarcasm.
DMT
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iclimbtoo
Feb 6, 2005, 9:56 PM
Post #178 of 211
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I've learned not to rate on stupidity content...too much of that.
On humor however, this thread is definitely more entertaining... :lol:
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robdotcalm
Feb 7, 2005, 4:54 PM
Post #179 of 211
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm? It's true that the one between piton and jay is a bit juvenile, but the one between jay and rob is one of the best things going for this thread. I'm very much looking forward to the next installment! GO Amber has introduced the possibility that Rob might have been sarcastic. The problem with sarcastically posting a stupid idea on this website is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from the myriad of equally stupid ideas that are posted here in complete sincerity on a daily basis. -Jay
I can assure alll that my posting was made in total sincerity. I'm not intellectually capable of being saracastic. Falling 12 feet is not a short fall. Placing more gear can allow one to climb faster. I don't see what's so complicated about that, and I do climb harder than 5.9. I've done some 5.10- when the wind's at my back.
I know many will be sorry to read this, but I may not be able to continue my enlightening responses. Mary and I are in New York City for 10 days, primarily to go to the Metropolitan Opera, and internest access is a bit hard to come by. So do carry on as best you can.
Cheers, rob.calm
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slobmonster
Feb 7, 2005, 5:06 PM
Post #180 of 211
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Yes, I have heard that Manhattan is a bandwidth backwater.
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jt512
Feb 7, 2005, 5:52 PM
Post #181 of 211
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm? It's true that the one between piton and jay is a bit juvenile, but the one between jay and rob is one of the best things going for this thread. I'm very much looking forward to the next installment! GO Amber has introduced the possibility that Rob might have been sarcastic. The problem with sarcastically posting a stupid idea on this website is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from the myriad of equally stupid ideas that are posted here in complete sincerity on a daily basis. -Jay I can assure alll that my posting was made in total sincerity. I'm not intellectually capable of being saracastic.
Unless that itself is a sarcastic statement. This can get complicated.
In reply to: Placing more gear can allow one to climb faster. I don't see what's so complicated about that...
It's incorrect on its face. You have to stop climbing to place the gear. It also assumes that climbers climb more slowly above runouts. I don't. If my pace changes at all, it's going to be faster in order to get to the next decent stance without pumping out in a section that's too strenuous to stop and place pro.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Feb 7, 2005, 5:55 PM
Post #182 of 211
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I'm not going to tell anyone how far apart to place gear, and especially I'll not say that their gear is too close together (unless thay are taking up all the holds with gear) But really, 12 feet is a SHORT fall. Short does not necessarily mean safe, but that's another story.
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col_von_spanker
Feb 7, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #183 of 211
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Warning: Climbing is dangerous!
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takeme
Feb 7, 2005, 7:11 PM
Post #184 of 211
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: btw, can someone split off the bickering between jay and piton and rob.calm? It's true that the one between piton and jay is a bit juvenile, but the one between jay and rob is one of the best things going for this thread. I'm very much looking forward to the next installment! GO Amber has introduced the possibility that Rob might have been sarcastic. The problem with sarcastically posting a stupid idea on this website is that it can be difficult to distinguish it from the myriad of equally stupid ideas that are posted here in complete sincerity on a daily basis. -Jay I can assure alll that my posting was made in total sincerity. I'm not intellectually capable of being saracastic. Unless that itself is a sarcastic statement. This can get complicated. In reply to: Placing more gear can allow one to climb faster. I don't see what's so complicated about that... It's incorrect on its face. You have to stop climbing to place the gear. It also assumes that climbers climb more slowly above runouts. I don't. If my pace changes at all, it's going to be faster in order to get to the next decent stance without pumping out in a section that's too strenuous to stop and place pro. -Jay
Jay, the only person making assumptions here is you. You don't climb more slowly above runouts. But others climbers sometimes do. I know several superb climbers who, for precisely that reason, tend to climb faster when they place more gear. I also know plenty like you, who climb faster if they run it out. For me, it may depend on the day. Of course, much of it depends on the difficultly of the climb relative to one's own ability, etc. But I guess you're one for hard and fast rules.
Rob simply stated that "Placing more gear can allow one to climb faster". That's certainly not "incorrect on its face".
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curt
Feb 7, 2005, 7:16 PM
Post #185 of 211
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I'm going to give this a T10 also--its brilliant actually, as evidenced by the 12+ pages of unsuspecting lunkers the OP has now reeled in.
Curt
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granitegod
Feb 7, 2005, 7:54 PM
Post #186 of 211
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I have rarely placed anything smaller than a 0.5 Camalot and felt like I had a truly "bomber" placement. With micro cams of ANY brand....PERFECT placement is difficult, and I always assume the placement of small pro, passive or active, COULD fail, and try to back up accordingly.
Other questions regarding the failure of the Alien in question which I haven't seen discussed: What's the condition of the ROPE you were using? How much rope between you and the belay, ie, fall factor?? Yes, it sounds like this was a defective piece, but if you took a 12 footer on 10 feet of rope onto a micro cam with a 5 year old rope....it doesn't really shock me!
....AND POST THE GODDAMN PIC ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
And since everyone else has seen fit to weigh in with their opinion on what cams are the best.....Black Diamond and Metolius get my cash (IMNSHO...Camalots dual axle design makes them STAY where you put em better than ANY cam on the market; TCU's will match or beat Aliens for shallow placements, weight, strength, and durability!)....and don't start quibbling over 2 grams here, or 1 kN there!
And if you're scared of falling 12 feet...go toprope in a gym, ya woosy.
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granitegod
Feb 7, 2005, 7:56 PM
Post #187 of 211
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ooops.....i mean wussy!
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punkclimber52
Feb 7, 2005, 8:35 PM
Post #188 of 211
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pics?
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catbird_seat
Feb 7, 2005, 11:51 PM
Post #189 of 211
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There will not ever be any pictures because this is a hoax. Either that, or the guy did something so foolish he won't admit it.
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angry
Feb 9, 2005, 3:34 PM
Post #190 of 211
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A week ago I PM'd the OP calling out his hoax. I offered to drive to him and take pictures with my camera. I additionally offered to have the cam replaced free of charge.
I also pointed out what the weather in the South Platte was like the weekend he claims to have done this. I wondered if he was one of the 4 parties burly enough to climb that day. 3 actually, because I know he wasn't at the bishop with me. I asked him exact details of the route and which of the 3 cars I saw all day (not including mine) was his.
He has had a week to respond and let me help him out, or to point out that he was at a different crag in the South Platte. I just offered to have a gray alien built specifically for him for free and I got no response. This is most definately a hoax, should I ever identify who this person is I will give all his contact information to CCH.
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ikefromla
Feb 9, 2005, 5:02 PM
Post #191 of 211
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In reply to: A week ago I PM'd the OP calling out his hoax. I offered to drive to him and take pictures with my camera. I additionally offered to have the cam replaced free of charge. I also pointed out what the weather in the South Platte was like the weekend he claims to have done this. I wondered if he was one of the 4 parties burly enough to climb that day. 3 actually, because I know he wasn't at the bishop with me. I asked him exact details of the route and which of the 3 cars I saw all day (not including mine) was his. He has had a week to respond and let me help him out, or to point out that he was at a different crag in the South Platte. I just offered to have a gray alien built specifically for him for free and I got no response. This is most definately a hoax, should I ever identify who this person is I will give all his contact information to CCH.
Now THAT is a quality post. Thank you.
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pico23
Feb 9, 2005, 5:49 PM
Post #192 of 211
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In reply to: My Fat ass took a 25 footer on a green and it didn't shatter into a million peices. So what did you do to it, Did you drop the peice from 30 feet, did you smash it with a hammer, or did you make fun of it being the new cam to the bunch and stick your tounge out at it...
This has been discussed to death but dropping an alien 30 feet more than likely would have no impact (no pun) on it ever failing.
aliens are really soft and they have a lot of play in the axles to begin with. A drop probably wouldn't do much to them. Climbing materials are generally ductile and don't tend to fracture.
Sounds like the cam probably was placed in a bad placement and it inverted. We've heard of this happening before with aliens because they don't have cam stops. people forget those small cams weren't intended for free climbing but people (including myself) use them and they usually work but your margin for placement error is very slim.
still for the cam to disintergrate is kind of weird. I agree with Phil, I'd take some photos of it. I would have taken some at the scene (including the placement) if I had a camera. And I'd send it registered mail to CCH. if there is a problem hopefully they will fix it. Of course I suppose you could also attempt to sue them and put them out of business and just use zeroes and tcu's.
edited:
just one other thing, people are under the impression that climbing pro should, and does never fail. Thats completely untrue. Even engineers at BD (and other companies) have said that climbing pro was NEVER designed to never fail. If that was the case you'd have a very small selection of completely over engineered but bomber gear that weighted a ton. But instead you have a much lighter selection of more versatile protection that requires you to use it in a system of protection. Because you have more options the you actually have a better system. In your case the system worked. A piece failed and you were fine because you placed a second piece not far below. This is a good example of why running it out isn't always a good idea. Of course your second placement generally has to be bomber because it gets a shockload after first piece rips but thats why you place good placements every chance you get. And a good example of why when people say "well you have a 10Kn or 20kn cam placement in the rock so why not fall" you should be skeptical because there is no guarantee that the cam you placed is going to hold because there are many variables including climber error, rock integrity, and just plain old gear failure.
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pico23
Feb 9, 2005, 6:05 PM
Post #194 of 211
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nice troll. didn't even notice there were 13 pages when i hit reply. Just read the original post and a few below.
What a loser. All this does is damage the rep of a good company that makes a excellent niche product.
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pico23
Feb 9, 2005, 6:06 PM
Post #195 of 211
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nice troll. didn't even notice there were 13 pages when i hit reply. Just read the original post and a few below.
What a loser. All this does is damage the rep of a good company that makes a excellent niche product.
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pico23
Feb 9, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #196 of 211
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nice troll. didn't even notice there were 13 pages when i hit reply. Just read the original post and a few below.
What a loser. All this does is damage the rep of a good company that makes a excellent niche product.
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epic_ed
Feb 9, 2005, 10:39 PM
Post #197 of 211
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In reply to: Maybe by page 10 we'll actually see a picture of this ripped apart alien.
Nope. Not even by page 13.
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beckerw
Feb 10, 2005, 4:21 AM
Post #198 of 211
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cracklover....if i send you a check will you send me the rope...i promise to quit using my current one as well. which is a hemp rope....yeah...from...1958...yeah, yeah....that my dad gave me....yeah that's the ticket.
i would also be willing to quit using my aliens for a new set of TCU's, doubles that is
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cracklover
Feb 10, 2005, 4:12 PM
Post #199 of 211
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In reply to: cracklover....if i send you a check will you send me the rope...i promise to quit using my current one as well. which is a hemp rope....yeah...from...1958...yeah, yeah....that my dad gave me....yeah that's the ticket.
Sure - but... it's static, 12mm, well used, and short (he wanted it for rappeling). Better stick with your hemp rope!
In reply to: i would also be willing to quit using my aliens for a new set of TCU's, doubles that is
Homey don't play that game. One for one, or no deal.
GO
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billcoe_
Feb 10, 2005, 10:11 PM
Post #200 of 211
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CCH HAS RESPONDED TO THIS THREAD ON ANOTHER THREAD.
If Quiet monk was in fact "trolling" which is also called a lie: he is definately open to a lawsuit and prosecution for malicious defamation.
Time to lock this thread. If and when quietmonk shows back up, let him resond to the CCH response thread. No reason leaving a thread with this kind of inflamatory title "aliens are dangerous", in the mix unsubstansiated and unsupported IMO.
Regards:
Bill
Edited for speling
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gym_monkey
Feb 11, 2005, 6:31 PM
Post #201 of 211
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This Failure Mode is not uncommon when it comes to cams, just remember all gear is only as good as the placement allows. See my account (once the photo is approved) for a photo of a Wild Country cam that failed due to improper placement.
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climbhigher
Jun 26, 2005, 6:37 AM
Post #202 of 211
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OK, I just googled CCH and saw this thread. So, I read a few pages of it. If that guy is a troll he should be shot!!!!! With that said:
I never knew there was so many people who dont like Aliens??? If you don't want your aliens, Sell them to me!!!! my E-mail is whitechristopher@yahoo.com. And for the people who don't like Zeros and wanna give the 2 larger ones away. Sell them to ME!!!! I still need 3 blue aliens, 2 yellow aliens, 1 green aliens, 1 red alien, and 3 orange aliens. CCH, Black Diamond, and Wild Country all make good cams. I don't like the Metiolus cams because once one of the cable bends the cam sucks. Or any double cable stem cams. And If you have any NEW Camalots from size red to blue I will take them. Camalots 5 and 6 are not as stable in large cracks as the Tech Friends of the same size, so if you have friends of that size i will take those.
So, what happen to this tread anyways? Did the guy finally show the picture???
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climbhigher
Jun 26, 2005, 6:46 AM
Post #203 of 211
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Oh yeah, One more thing. I will state the obvious for experience lead climbers. It does not matter how far you fall on the piece. All that matters for the most part is the fall factor with a few other things that are not constant. And we all know that you suppose to never trust your life to one piece of climbing gear.
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tattooed_climber
Jun 26, 2005, 7:39 AM
Post #204 of 211
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please will someone LOCK this thread already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:
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billcoe_
Jun 28, 2005, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: please will someone LOCK this thread already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:
Don't make us beg.........P...L...E..A..S..E!
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renohandjams
Jun 28, 2005, 8:14 PM
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Good luck getting a refund from CCH for the cams. They would loose the paper work under the crying babies in their one bed room apartment.
Sorry, they might have a great product, but their supplier/retailer relationships are terrible. Hard to deal with.
-Kenny
------------------------
TradRack.com SuperStore
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 100 to give
Click here to see if your name is available
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tradrenn
Jun 29, 2005, 1:51 AM
Post #207 of 211
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In reply to: I would assume the problem is with how the gear was placed - not with the piece itself.
Wouldn't you also say that the gear should pull instead of breaking apart ?
In the past I had only 2 hexes pull on me, but they didn't fell apart.
That's why I'm quite surprised to read this post.
Is it different for cams ? ( Forces, staff like that ) Just wondering.
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timd
Jul 1, 2005, 1:16 AM
Post #208 of 211
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TROLL
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phaedrus
Jul 2, 2005, 4:45 AM
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I agree, so....
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phaedrus
Jul 2, 2005, 4:45 AM
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phaedrus has locked this thread.
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CCH aliens are dangerous!
