And again, the term "access" is a huge issue. Life saving treatments that get performed within minutes of the condition here in the US will take WEEKS in a socialized medicine industry.

Lemme ask you this: What will happen when, say, a woman needs an abortion because of rape, and the socialized system says "Sure, we can do that... in 5 months." ??

What do you think will happen when an elderly person with chest pain goes to the hospital, and the administroatrs say "Well, sorry, but you're too old for us to treat this, so you'll have to suffer." ??

These are not far-fetched scenarios... they will be reality if we get socialized medicine. Why do you support the idea of the Federal Government making your healthcare decisions for you?

Hey Bob! Quit bogartin' that joint.

Why?

That extrapolation is, of course, absurd. If other "major countries" can provide universal health care for all of their citizens for 6.5% of their GDP, why cant we? After all, we have more people, but our GDP is also much larger.

I also find it interesting that people always claim that the quality of healthcare in the US would go down if we adopt a socialized medical plan. Why is it then that several of those countries with universal government health plans have statistically better medical outcome rates than the US does? Something to think about.

Curt

I look forward to bob's reply saying "You proved my point". :roll:

thorne wrote:
I look forward to bob's reply saying "You proved my point".


I'll beat him to it:

Hey Bob, I proved your point! You're welcome!

Thorne/Bumblie and Reno...separated at birth.

I am glad you two found each other again. :D

You seem to be side stepping one major aspect of this. Namely, government funded health care in the US is significantly more costly than our private health.


Why?

I think you know the anwser. Accepting the status-quo will get us no where. Demand that our officials fixed that broken system now.

We obviously need change, but universal health care is not the solution.

I disagree.

Again, I ask: Name one thing the government does that resembles cost-efficient.

....It's a point of simple fact: Under the US laws, socialized medicine won't work and save money. Can the government provide medical care? Yes, but it'll cost money. Can the government provide care to everyone cheaply? Sure, but you won't get the same level of care you can get now. Can the government do BOTH, provide highest level of care AND do so cost effectively? Not a chance.

I don't see why not, except for all the well-heeled special interest money that would oppose it. You continue to ignore the fact that has now been stated several times: The US does not have the world's best medical outcome record, and in fact, many countries with socialized medicine do better than we do in that regard. Based on that, one could argue that the overall level of medical care in the US could actually improve by adopting such a system.

Curt

1) Public schooling of our children.
2) Public highway and road infrastructure.
3) Water distribution.

Would you like a few more?

I don't see why not, except for all the well-heeled special interest money that would oppose it. You continue to ignore the fact that has now been stated several times: The US does not have the world's best medical outcome record, and in fact, many countries with socialized medicine do better than we do in that regard.

....It's a point of simple fact: Under the US laws, socialized medicine won't work and save money. Can the government provide medical care? Yes, but it'll cost money. Can the government provide care to everyone cheaply? Sure, but you won't get the same level of care you can get now. Can the government do BOTH, provide highest level of care AND do so cost effectively? Not a chance.

This is an EASY problem to solve. We already pay more for less. GOD, if only someone would let me take a crack at that one and split the difference of the savings with me! Are we really so stupid that we can’t figure out how to do this at least as good, if not better, than the Europeans? Oh wait, I can answer that myself. Apparently, 51% of voters ARE too stupid to figure this out.

Curt, you commie, pinko bastard.

Peter- like I said before...you can't use logic on these two. It just won't work. :lol:

I am meeting Reno for some climbing near Taos on Monday. Are you in? We can knock some sense into the boy.

1) Public schooling of our children.
2) Public highway and road infrastructure.
3) Water distribution.

I'll play.

4) Delivering mail from anywhere to anywhere in a matter of days (Postal Service is one of my clients right now, heh heh).
5) Aviation infrastructure and safety.
6) National (actually, world) defense.
7) Management of our electrical power infrastructure.
8) Assurance of our food supply, both quantity and safety.
9) Science and technology R&D (did you know the vast majority of drug patents are based on government funded research?)

You claim that our educational system is cost efficient, yet we constantly hear of how poorly educated our children are. Nice.

I don't think the highway system is cost efficient.

I'll give you water, but only because it's run by sub-contracted agencies (Public Utility Model) and not the federal government... I pay my water bill to the city of Scottsdale now, but when I was in Denver, I paid the city of Denver. I'd hardly call that a federal system.

Nice try, though.

You said "the government" not our federal system. Nice try, though. :wink: Also, please explain exactly how you think our highway system would be more cost efficient if privately owned. Thanks.

You said "the government" not our federal system. Nice try, though. :wink: Also, please explain exactly how you think our highway system would be more cost efficient if privately owned. Thanks.

Curt

1. According to the 2000 NAEP assessments, only 32 percent of 4th graders are proficient in reading
2. Only 26 percent are proficient in mathematics
3. Only 29 percent are proficient in science
4. Only 18 percent are proficient in history
5. Proficiency rates decline by the 12th grade in most subjects. Over half of all poor students fail to reach the basic level on NAEP assessments in most subjects.
6. Internationally comparisons conclude that despite higher than average per-pupil expenditures, American 8th graders ranked 19th out of 38 countries on the most recent international mathematics comparison, the Third International Mathematics and Science Study-Repeat (TIMSS-R) of 1999. American students scored 18th out of 38 countries in science.
7. On the TIMSS 1995 study, which tested 12th graders, American students were ranked 19th out of 21 countries in both math and science general knowledge.

You said "the government" not our federal system. Nice try, though. :wink: Also, please explain exactly how you think our highway system would be more cost efficient if privately owned. Thanks.
Curt

I could go on. Contrary to Republican propaganda, MOST of what the government does it actually does quite well, especially when you consider all the differing constituencies that must be served.