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svilnit
Jun 29, 2006, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This may seem like a dumb question but why do those who climb trad not use a gri gri, Iam always using my grigri when I climb just cause I like it better for belaying as well as an added margin of safety for when the leader is out of view or the belayer is not paying as much attention as they should be, however the weight and the rappel with the grigri are the only two things I do not like, anyways why not use it for trad? Can't rape double lines.
It's just too easy... somebody else do it
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tavs
Jun 29, 2006, 9:27 PM
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Every so often, it's nice to have threads like this remind me full force that there are a lot of stupid people saying stupid things on the intraweb.
On the other hand, if I had trophies to award today, they'd be going to maldaly, dingus, and jt512. To add my brief $.02 to their thoughts, here's a general rule of thumb I like to follow: if I wouldn't trust someone who had had instruction and experience with both types of devices to belay me with a grigri, I wouldn't trust them to belay me with an ATC either...and vice versa. And to echo one of jt's comments, I've seen bad falls (popping gear, uneven belay spots with dropoffs, etc) where the belayer very well might have lost control of the belay were a grigri not in use.
To paraphrase: "It's the belayER stupid."
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fmd
Jun 30, 2006, 12:06 AM
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[quote="tavs"]Every so often, it's nice to have threads like this remind me full force that there are a lot of stupid people saying stupid things on the intraweb.
Not so stupid if you ask me....Some people think that you dont lead or sport climb with a GriGri. Why not?? Some people thinks its a extra added measure of safety..Why not??..Some people think is adds to much complacency with the belayer..That depends on the belayer!!.....Hey Jess.....my girlfriends can beat up your boyfriend..........see, not so stupid.......
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james_climber
Jun 30, 2006, 12:24 AM
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Well it depends of the rope , i have a new 10.2 rope and i take grigri for it and with other 10.2 or 10.5 idont care if im belaying with reverso or grigri . I really feel confident belaying people , dont care if its a 5.8 runout or 5.14 runout, i trust in my work .
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skeletos
Jun 30, 2006, 12:25 AM
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jt512 wrote
This has been rehashed 1000 times on this site. Do a f---ing search, or just look up the answer on Petzl's website.In reply to: What is safer: to continue to use a less safe device simply because you are too lazy to learn to use a safer one, or to learn to use the safer one properly? Quit rationalizing that autolocking devices are not inherently safer. They are; if you, the belayer, are hit by a falling rock, or otherwise lose control of the belay, you are backed up if, and only if, you are using an autolocking device. In reply to: Jay, First off, nice attitude. Secondly, if I really wanted to now know how to let out slack quickly using a grigri I would look it up. Third, thanks for pointing out how an autolocking device is safer for me to use. I'm still going to use my ATC.
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jt512
Jun 30, 2006, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This has been rehashed 1000 times on this site. Do a f---ing search, or just look up the answer on Petzl's website. What is safer: to continue to use a less safe device simply because you are too lazy to learn to use a safer one, or to learn to use the safer one properly? Quit rationalizing that autolocking devices are not inherently safer. They are; if you, the belayer, are hit by a falling rock, or otherwise lose control of the belay, you are backed up if, and only if, you are using an autolocking device. Jay, First off, nice attitude. Secondly, if I really wanted to now know how to let out slack quickly using a grigri I would look it up.
And if not, you would ask someone else to explain it. "Nice attitude."
In reply to: Third, thanks for pointing out how an autolocking device is safer for me to use. I'm still going to use my ATC.
Why an autolocking belay device is safer is self-evident. The only reason it my not be safer for you to use is that you are too lazy or too complacent to learn to use it properly. "Nice attitude."
Jay
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deltav
Jun 30, 2006, 3:11 AM
Post #57 of 206
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I dis-agree. I know how to use the grigri properly, but the safety is NOT self evident. I was taught, and firmly believe that YOU NEVER LET GO. I have been slammed into the rock by a fall before, gashing my head open, but I didn't let go. jT, what make you think you know everything. If someone has a personal preference, that doesn't make them lazy. But I guess since you have 9000+ posts...
Oh, by the way, Nice Attitude
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fracture
Jun 30, 2006, 3:48 AM
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In reply to: He wanted to buy 36 Cinches because they were cheap and his 4th, 5th and 6th graders could belay each other with them. when I asked if those same 4th, 5th and 6th graders were allowed to drive the camp vans around he said, "Of course not. They're too immature, don't have the attention span and lack the physical coordination to do that." I let that one hang in the air for a few seconds then told him I wouldn't sell him the Cinches because belaying takes maturity, constant attention and coordination to be safe.
Malcolm: you rule, dude. (And great post.)
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fracture
Jun 30, 2006, 3:53 AM
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In reply to: But few things in climbing produce as hostile a response as suggesting to your belayer that they use a grigri.
I can think of a major one: suggesting that they change how they use their GriGri and do it properly. ;)
I think a lot more carefully about being belayed by someone who I don't know very well if they are using a GriGri (or Cinch or whatever) than I do if they are using a tube device. I have seen too many "experienced" climbers misuse locking devices, often in subtle ways.
Either way, I wouldn't want my belayer to be using a device they weren't quite comfortable with. Being belayed by someone who uses a GriGri improperly but has done it for years with no accidents (yet) is probably a hell of a lot safer than asking the same guy to use an ATC (which he probably hasn't used in years). Same thing in reverse---many of the GriGri-misuse accidents I've heard of involve belayers who are very new to the GriGri (but unfortunately, many also involve belayers who've been using them for a decade).
Of course, once I trust someone, I don't really care what they use as long as they use it correctly. But, naturally, it can be a lot easier to get a quality dogging belay if your belayer is using a locking device. ;)
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fracture
Jun 30, 2006, 4:00 AM
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The interesting thing with this whole locking device issue is if you misuse a tube device during a fall, the climber decks immediately in most cases. Obviously this sucks, but it is also immediate feedback that what you did was wrong---people therefore take it pretty seriously.
On the other hand, if you misuse a GriGri during a fall, everything is still cool 90% of the time. Now technically this should be (and really is a great feature because it is a backup for the belayer (like Jay mentions)---however, it creates a problem for ... well ... let's say "stupid" people.
CI says few things piss someone off more than asking them to use a GriGri, but I can think of a major one: asking them to change how they use their GriGri and do it properly.
By the way: all you guys should try the Cinch. Out of the three lockers I've used (Cinch, SUM, and GriGri), the Cinch is definitely my favorite.
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happybob
Jun 30, 2006, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This has been rehashed 1000 times on this site. Do a f---ing search, or just look up the answer on Petzl's website. What is safer: to continue to use a less safe device simply because you are too lazy to learn to use a safer one, or to learn to use the safer one properly? Quit rationalizing that auto locking devices are not inherently safer. They are; if you, the belayer, are hit by a falling rock, or otherwise lose control of the belay, you are backed up if, and only if, you are using an auto locking device. Jay, First off, nice attitude. Secondly, if I really wanted to now know how to let out slack quickly using a grigri I would look it up. And if not, you would ask someone else to explain it. "Nice attitude." In reply to: Third, thanks for pointing out how an auto locking device is safer for me to use. I'm still going to use my ATC. Why an auto locking belay device is safer is self-evident. The only reason it my not be safer for you to use is that you are too lazy or too complacent to learn to use it properly. "Nice attitude." Jay
Fuck Jay, no wonder you have a billion posts. :roll:
I'm still with skeletos on this one. While it is a good idea that a belay device will auto-lock if your friend gets knocked out by a falling rock, I'm thinking about more common stuff. Like getting lowered. Getting lowered with a gri-gri is the most scary thing I have ever done climbing. I swear, its either free falling or locked into place. While this isn't a life of death type of hazard, I'm sure lots of people know that I'm talking about. Last thing I really need is for someone to drop, I mean lower me, and then stop my freefall at the right time so I swing my head into some rocks... Not cool. Hasn't happened yet, but that's because my climbing friends and I don't use gri-gri's anymore. (They got them as gifts and they just sit in the climbing bag...)
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fracture
Jun 30, 2006, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: Like getting lowered. Getting lowered with a gri-gri is the most scary thing I have ever done climbing. I swear, its either free falling or locked into place. While this isn't a life of death type of hazard, I'm sure lots of people know that I'm talking about.
You are blaming the device for the shortcomings of the user.
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happybob
Jun 30, 2006, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Like getting lowered. Getting lowered with a gri-gri is the most scary thing I have ever done climbing. I swear, its either free falling or locked into place. While this isn't a life of death type of hazard, I'm sure lots of people know that I'm talking about. You are blaming the device for the shortcomings of the user.
Yes, this is a complete user flaw. On the other hand, one could consider someone getting themselves struck with a rock and letting go of their ATC a user flaw. If we could eliminate user flaw, any old junk would do fine.
From my limited use of the Gri-Gri, lowering someone is a rather fine tuned technique, and I don't feel the trade of the autolock feature for the extremely straitforward and forgiving technique of the ATC (or its relatives) is justified. Just an opinion though, I know it wont change a damn thing.
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majid_sabet
Jun 30, 2006, 5:55 AM
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A good friend of mine said once
“Today’s climbers are turning to bunch of Pu$$Ies"
They are becoming too dependent to their gears than to their knowledge and skill.
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jonoj
Jun 30, 2006, 5:56 AM
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Grigris promote inattentiveness on the belayers part - whether you agree or not, like it or not, care about it or not. Best used for rope-soloing imo.
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blumsky_climbs_rox
Jun 30, 2006, 6:19 AM
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In reply to: I have been slammed into the rock by a fall before, gashing my head open, but I didn't let go.
and if you get knocked unconscious...?
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benpullin
Jun 30, 2006, 7:00 AM
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In reply to: Getting lowered with a gri-gri is the most scary thing I have ever done climbing. I swear, its either free falling or locked into place.
This just shows that you don't know how to properly use the device.
Once you learn how, you can lower, feed rope, catch, etc. as smooth as silk.
This whole argument/thread is rather silly, as it seems the people that are opposed to the grigri are the same ones who don't know how to use it.
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healyje
Jun 30, 2006, 8:06 AM
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First off, the name: it's simple - GriGri means "poodle" in French.
Second: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. One can easily guess someone somewhere in the world is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri virtually every minute of every day.
Third: The whole conversation is pretty much ridiculous. I'd trust my old partner Tangen-Foster, a Larry DeAngelo, or any other competent old-timer to belay me through a totally runout sketchfest on a hip or shoulder belay way before your average sports climber with a poodle. Do you really think we were all unsafe before Grigris came along? Unbelievable really. It took me a decade to trust a belay device of any kind and I still view them with some skepticism even though I know how to use them all fine (it ain't rocket science). I still hip belay all the time and in fact that's all I used yesterday and today. Do Grigris work? Sure. Would my partner using one while I was putting up a sketchfest give me any added confidence? Absolutely none. I use my grigri for roped soloing and working and that's it...
Fourth: "Dude, you're the hand...!!!"
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c-money
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Jun 30, 2006, 8:46 AM
Post #69 of 206
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In reply to: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin.
What do you base this statement on? If this is based on some fact as opposed to opinion, it would be interesting to learn more.
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c-money
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Jun 30, 2006, 8:51 AM
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In reply to: The statistics are clear: belay accidents happen 100:1 with locking assist devices (CInch, Grigri, SUM, etc) over standard devices. ... the vast majority of belaying accidents (okay, maybe it's not 100:1 but I'll buy beer for anyone who can convince me it's less than 50:1) happen with these locking assist devices.
Do these "statistics" exist? If so, where might one find these numbers?
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csproul
Jun 30, 2006, 1:31 PM
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So I just tried a quick web search for translations of the words grigri, gri gri, and gri. The only French translation I came up with was that gri means "cry". Wikopedia claims grigri is an Vodoun/Voodoo talisman or amulet that protects the wearer from evil or brings luck. The American Heritage dictionary claims it is an African word of origin; meaning an African charm, fetish, or amulet.
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bill413
Jun 30, 2006, 1:42 PM
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My recollection (from when the Grigri came out) was that it was, or was close to, an african* word that meant "monkey."
(*Yes, there is not such a thing as "African." It is used here to mean one or more of the languages that originated on the african continent).
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clymber
Jun 30, 2006, 2:13 PM
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i guess i am the total opposite of you...i REFUSE to be belayed on a gri gri....the way i feel is if its a gri gri the belayer doesnt have to pay as close of attention to me and more room for a screw up....that might also come from all the trad climbing that i do since gri gris are not ment to be used on trad climb leads
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dingus
Jun 30, 2006, 2:46 PM
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In reply to: This whole argument/thread is rather silly, as it seems the people that are opposed to the grigri are the same ones who don't know how to use it.
Nah. Not necessarily (though your point is well taken). I know some very experienced climbers who know perfectly well how to use a grigri but still don't care for them. For many many climbing applications the grigri is NOT the superior belay technology, period. To suggest otherwise is moronic. To say that those who choose not to use one are ignorant of its operation is just as myopic as the clueless you reference in the quote above?
Cheers bro!
DMT
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angry
Jun 30, 2006, 3:03 PM
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Time to add a counterpoint.
The arguement was recently made that the ones who do not like the grigri are the same ones who do not know how to use it.
I'm as good with a grigri as it gets. I can give you 8 feet of slack before you finish saying "clipping". I can take that same 8 feet in plus another 10 approximately .01 seconds after gravity won the fight. And I can do it all without ever taking my brake hand off the rope. And lowering, shit, you won't get a smoother ride in a limo.
It's my strong opinion that the grigri is the smoothest and fastest belay device on the market (the Cinch has a few features that may trump this statement, but I've only used one once).
As I stated on page 2, I only use a grigri at the climbing wall. I like the belay I can give and when I'm hunting for partners people are a little more responsive when they see Petzl will be thinking for me. Everywhere else you are going to see me with a tube type device. Reasons below aren't in order, just separated to be easy to read.
-Double rope rappels
-twin ropes
-half ropes
-The thickest rope I or my partners have is 9.6 (grigri efficacy arguable)
-Squeeze Chimneys
-There is a certain "type" of climber that Gri's everything, I don't want to be that guy.
I know the grigri is smoother and faster than my tube, but the versatility is key for me. Now I have recently started using an increased friction belay tube (ATC XP Guide) and feel that this is probably the best of both worlds.
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