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saxfiend
Jun 30, 2006, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: "Briefly, you use your hand to pinch the grigri, preventing it from locking up. Then you pull slack through the device." Yep- that's what I do, and exactly why I don't lead belay with said unit. If a leader falls at that moment, the instinctive impulse is to squeeze harder... Instinct? Has the gene for grigri squeezing been identified?
Priceless! My only "instinct" (no matter what belay device I might be using) when a leader falls is to lock off with the brake hand, not grab the belay device!
Once I was showed how to safely use a grigri for belaying sport leaders, I've never gone back. And I've never short-roped or dropped anyone.
JL
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dingus
Jun 30, 2006, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: "Briefly, you use your hand to pinch the grigri, preventing it from locking up. Then you pull slack through the device." Yep- that's what I do, and exactly why I don't lead belay with said unit. If a leader falls at that moment, the instinctive impulse is to squeeze harder... Instinct? Has the gene for grigri squeezing been identified? :lol: :lol: Priceless! My only "instinct"
Actually I do think men have an instinct, or at least an instrinsic need, to squeeze harder.
Seriously, why fellers, do you think that rope feels so natural in the palm of your hand? Why do we refer to rope handling characteristics as HAND???
Hmmmm?
The very motions of belaying are old hat to some of our more, um, solitary, ah, members?
DMT
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saxfiend
Jun 30, 2006, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: "Briefly, you use your hand to pinch the grigri, preventing it from locking up. Then you pull slack through the device." Yep- that's what I do, and exactly why I don't lead belay with said unit. If a leader falls at that moment, the instinctive impulse is to squeeze harder... Instinct? Has the gene for grigri squeezing been identified? :lol: :lol: Priceless! My only "instinct" Actually I do think men have an instinct, or at least an instrinsic need, to squeeze harder. Seriously, why fellers, do you think that rope feels so natural in the palm of your hand? Why do we refer to rope handling characteristics as HAND??? Hmmmm? The very motions of belaying are old hat to some of our more, um, solitary, ah, members? DMT
:twisted:
JL
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j_ung
Jun 30, 2006, 3:30 PM
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:lol: Perhaps grigri does mean poodle in French. I don't know. But, it's also a voodoo charm that supposedly wards off evil spirits. Pretty sure that's why the device has its name, and that the Poodle Theory is in fact incorrect. Regardless, it will now be my standard answer when asked where Petzl got the name. "Oh that? It means 'poodle' in French. Duh."
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cracklover
Jun 30, 2006, 3:34 PM
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The one and only thing that comes shining out of this thread with great clarity is this: most people feel most confident with the belay device they either learned on or have used most. They have irrational fears about other devices and prejudices about the users of those devices.
I use a grigri, an ATC, and a TRE Sirius. Each has it's own arena in which it is superior. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly unsafe and a moron.
Yeah right.
G:roll:
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saxfiend
Jun 30, 2006, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: :lol: Perhaps grigri does mean poodle in French. I don't know. But, it's also a voodoo charm that supposedly wards off evil spirits. Pretty sure that's why the device has its name, and that the Poodle Theory is in fact incorrect. Regardless, it will now be my standard answer when asked where Petzl got the name. "Oh that? It means 'poodle' in French. Duh."
JL
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nikki_keasey
Jun 30, 2006, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: This has been rehashed 1000 times on this site. Do a f---ing search, or just look up the answer on Petzl's website... Jay
Ah yes, the old "we already talked about this" comment. In fact, I think that same message has been typed (with variable degrees of attitude) 1000's of times by people who have been on this website 1000's of times. Some of us are new here and maybe it's a little more fulfilling to have a current dialogue rather than to do a search and read ancient threads.
By the way, for "degree of attitude", you get an eleven. That's right, my scale's better 'cuz it goes to eleven.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 30, 2006, 3:53 PM
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Dogs, cheap beer, and gnomes. What could be better than that!!
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nikki_keasey
Jun 30, 2006, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: Dogs, cheap beer, and gnomes. What could be better than that!!
It's not just a dog, it's a grigri.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 30, 2006, 3:58 PM
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It looks like you have three different types of passive protection. Well, maybe the grigri would not be quite so passive. :lol:
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healyje
Jun 30, 2006, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. What do you base this statement on? If this is based on some fact as opposed to opinion, it would be interesting to learn more.
A 15 minute visit to any given gym in the US on a random tuesday night...
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caughtinside
Jun 30, 2006, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. What do you base this statement on? If this is based on some fact as opposed to opinion, it would be interesting to learn more. A 15 minute visit to any given gym in the US on a random tuesday night...
Hey, come on now Joe. I don't show up in your threads to tell you what you do is stupid.
...oh wait, yes I do. :P 8^) :lol:
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cracklover
Jun 30, 2006, 6:42 PM
Post #88 of 206
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. What do you base this statement on? If this is based on some fact as opposed to opinion, it would be interesting to learn more. A 15 minute visit to any given gym in the US on a random tuesday night...
Seen plenty of people belaying in gyms with ATCs who I wouldn't trust to belay me, ever, on any device. Seen 'em drop folks too. With an ATC. Even predicted it once or twice. Yeah, I know - I should've gone over and played policeman. So sue me. The gyms had nice padded floors. Outside is different, and I've played the asshole before. You do what you gotta do.
GO
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slacklinejoe
Jun 30, 2006, 7:03 PM
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Having suffered really, really bad rope burn catching a large sport fall (say 29 feet when he was 30 feet up) that almost had my partner decking when I was using an ATC I am now a major proponent of learning the proper way of lead belaying with a GriGri.
I didn't drop my climber, had my ATC locked off hard but due to lack of friction I still ended up with chunks of skin down the rope due to insufficent friction - not only was it a close call it ruined a trip on the very first climb.
Yes, a belay glove or a higher friction tube device might have saved my skin but the fact is my climber ended up clearing the ground by 1 foot after I gave a small running belay - in that scenario where a shorter fall is preferable to reducing loads on the top anchors I feel an autolocker is appropriate.
I'm a firm beliver that autolockers can be used for proper belaying. If you can't keep up with the rope feed learn to use it correctly - the rest of us seem to have it down without short roping our leaders.
Unfortunately, like most things reverse darwinisim is true: if you make a product idiot proof the world will provide better idiots.
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billcoe_
Jun 30, 2006, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: It ain't the arrow, it's the injun. Seriously, the safest belay device is an attentive belayer with the proper skills. The statistics are clear: belay accidents happen 100:1 with locking assist devices (CInch, Grigri, SUM, etc) over standard devices. Are they unsafe? No way. It's the attitude of the user. Just go to any gym or sport crag and look at the belayers. If they're using a standard device, generally they'll be paying attention to the climber, their body will be braced and they're readyfor wehatever may happen. Look at the crowd with the locking assist devices and they could be doing anything: sitting down, eating, on a cell phone, chatting up their friends. There's been an unfortunate attitude shift with the introduction of this category and it hasn't been good. On the other hand, without these devices, primarily the Grigri, sport climbing wouldn't be at the level it is today. In the hands of a skilled team working a hard route, the dance between the climber and belayer is a thing of beauty and allows working a route in a fashion that just doesn't happen with a standard device. My other b---- about the category is how they've devolved to be the crutch for the lowest common denominator. I got a call last fall from Bubba (really), the director of a large summer camp. He wanted to buy 36 Cinches because they were cheap and his 4th, 5th and 6th graders could belay each other with them. when I asked if those same 4th, 5th and 6th graders were allowed to drive the camp vans around he said, "Of course not. They're too immature, don't have the attention span and lack the physical coordination to do that." I let that one hang in the air for a few seconds then told him I wouldn't sell him the Cinches because belaying takes maturity, constant attention and coordination to be safe. I HATE IT when someone tells me they bought, or want to buy, a Cinch for their wife/kid/boyfriend/whatever because they don't trust their belaying. That's not the right reason to buy in this category. Remember, the vast majority of belaying accidents (okay, maybe it's not 100:1 but I'll buy beer for anyone who can convince me it's less than 50:1) happen with these locking assist devices. It says right on the damn thing, FOR EXPERT USE ONLY. I'll sure I'll hear back on this one... Mal
DAMN STRAIGHT YOU WILL. You are 100% correct, that's why. :lol: Robbins use to postulate, for instance, that it was what was inside of the climbers head, not on the outside (helmet) that was the determent of if you would survive, or even have, a bad fall.
After 30 years, most of the bad accidents, not matter who or what external factors the victim or victims friends blame, are generally caused by poor judgment on their part and are at base, their own fault.
One of the biggest faults of our system is the use of lawyers to attempt to affix blame, almost always on whoever has the deepest pockets: AND IT IS PRIMARILY THIS FACT , which is causing us as individuals to lose our freedoms.
Maldaly and Healy get good ratings today! :wink:
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nthusiastj
Jun 30, 2006, 8:35 PM
Post #92 of 206
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In reply to: Second: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. One can easily guess someone somewhere in the world is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri virtually every minute of every day.
Are you a gun control freak too. Are you going to tell me that every minute of every day guns are killing people all over the world? Guns don't kill people by themselves. Dumbasses pull the trigger.
GriGri's don't drop people. Dumbasses do.
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jcinco
Jun 30, 2006, 9:12 PM
Post #93 of 206
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In reply to: Second: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. One can easily guess someone somewhere in the world is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri virtually every minute of every day.
In reply to: The statistics are clear: belay accidents happen 100:1 with locking assist devices (CInch, Grigri, SUM, etc) over standard devices.
I love how people quote, as if they are actually staring at them right there, complete bullshit statistics to back up their points. Care to back up those claims with a source or reference of some kind?
Just an educated guess, but I would imagine general lowering accidents (lowered off the end of the rope, miscommunication, etc...with little dependence on belay device type) are the most common climbing accident followed closely by rappelling accidents.
I would have to see the statistics first, however, before I go and spout it on this forum as if it were the gospel.
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healyje
Jun 30, 2006, 9:18 PM
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Well, there is no doubt people drop people, just like people shoot people and if everyone carried a pistol with a hair trigger and no safety we'd see a lot more dead people. But anyone who doesn't think that people being dropped by folks using grigris is positively epidemic is either clueless or in denial. But it's part of the price for the commercialization of climbing and having the majority of today's "climbers" supported by grigris, bolts, and "developers". As Malcolm says "climbing" has risen to new levels of skill and accomplishment, but from my perspective those gains are basically imbued in a small percentage of climbers. Over the past thirty years the vast majority of climbers on a percentage basis have been losing skills, technique, and knowledge - climbing has in effect been "dumbed down" to accomodate the annual tidal flow of new "climbers" gyms need to survive. On a skill-by-skill basis the average climber in 1976 had a much higher level of knowledge and competence than today. It's not exactly a surprise outcome when 85% of today's climbers only clip bolts - neither is one of them dropping another about once a minute somewhere.
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shanz
Jun 30, 2006, 9:20 PM
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Aw shit this thread is still alive -- wait its miraculously changed oh hell its been re-hashed again cause someone didnt do a search ---- back to sleep i go ZZZzzzz.....
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deltav
Jun 30, 2006, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: "Briefly, you use your hand to pinch the grigri, preventing it from locking up. Then you pull slack through the device." Yep- that's what I do, and exactly why I don't lead belay with said unit. If a leader falls at that moment, the instinctive impulse is to squeeze harder... Instinct? Has the gene for grigri squeezing been identified? :lol: :lol: Priceless! My only "instinct" Actually I do think men have an instinct, or at least an instrinsic need, to squeeze harder. Seriously, why fellers, do you think that rope feels so natural in the palm of your hand? Why do we refer to rope handling characteristics as HAND??? Hmmmm? The very motions of belaying are old hat to some of our more, um, solitary, ah, members? DMT
They always told me I was a natural :lol:
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jaybro
Jun 30, 2006, 9:56 PM
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this is still going? Wow, at least I know why I killed all those people I was supposed to be belaying.
The main reason I don't use a gri to lead belay is that it is a pain in the ass, and harder to give a safe belay with.
The reason I don't encourage new lead belayers to use one is because I don't trust them not to squeeze. They do better remembering to hold on with a conventional device.
-it's more intuitive-
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c-money
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Jul 1, 2006, 12:20 AM
Post #98 of 206
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. What do you base this statement on? If this is based on some fact as opposed to opinion, it would be interesting to learn more. A 15 minute visit to any given gym in the US on a random tuesday night...
Yeah, that is what I thought... No facts to back up your claims...
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skeletos
Jul 1, 2006, 12:29 AM
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Registered: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 17
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Jay,
Do you work for Petzl? Why are you so worried about what other people use as their belay devices? As you can see by all of these posts, there are positive and negative aspects of different belay devices in different situations. To say that a grigri in the only belay device that I should ever use is just ignorant. The reason for my first post was to say that it was dumb for me to pick up a grigri to belay a partner on a very hard climb when I haven't used one in a long time. It would have been way safer for the climber that I was belaying for me to have used what I always use; an ATC. So maybe you should relax and take a look at both sides before spouting out nonsense.
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c-money
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Jul 1, 2006, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Second: Lowering accidents with GriGris are far and way the most common accident in climbing today by a large, large margin. One can easily guess someone somewhere in the world is being dropped by a belayer using a grigri virtually every minute of every day. In reply to: The statistics are clear: belay accidents happen 100:1 with locking assist devices (CInch, Grigri, SUM, etc) over standard devices. I love how people quote, as if they are actually staring at them right there, complete s--- statistics to back up their points. Care to back up those claims with a source or reference of some kind? Just an educated guess, but I would imagine general lowering accidents (lowered off the end of the rope, miscommunication, etc...with little dependence on belay device type) are the most common climbing accident followed closely by rappelling accidents. I would have to see the statistics first, however, before I go and spout it on this forum as if it were the gospel.
Yep. Both maldaly and healyje make some good points, but why would they discredit their own statements by throwing out imaginary stats that simply don't exist?
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