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jt512
May 27, 2004, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You could weld the cam fully open on a Gri-gri and I could belay somebody perfectly safely with it. As has been mentioned before, this merely turns the Gri-gri (in essence) into a tube belay device like an ATC. Curt No it doesn't. There's much less friction. I bet if a 150 lb climber took a 10' fall from 20' up a route you'd end up with 3rd degree rope burn in the palm of your hand and they'd be crawling back to the car. Of course we are all speculating, and I'd love to see tests of the holding power of an open grigri. UB
Yeah, Hank Moon's ears should be burning. Where is he? Probably out climbing when he should be working instead of posting when he should be working.
Anyway, indeed there is much less friction. I have to wear a glove to lower my partner using a grigri with a newish 10.2-mm Beal theorectically non-dry rope. I very much doubt I could hold a lead fall with an open cam with that rope. Maybe with an 11 mm.
-Jay
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curt
May 27, 2004, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You could weld the cam fully open on a Gri-gri and I could belay somebody perfectly safely with it. As has been mentioned before, this merely turns the Gri-gri (in essence) into a tube belay device like an ATC. Curt No it doesn't. There's much less friction. I bet if a 150 lb climber took a 10' fall from 20' up a route you'd end up with 3rd degree rope burn in the palm of your hand and they'd be crawling back to the car. Of course we are all speculating, and I'd love to see tests of the holding power of an open grigri. UB
I didn't say the open Gri-gri was identical to a tube belay device, hence my use of the words "in essence" in my previous quote. I still stand by my comment above. I have caught heavier climbers on more severe falls (many times) than your proposed example above, using a waist belay and nobody got hurt.
And I'm not sure what you mean by testing the "holding power" of an open Gri-gri, as I suspect there is none. The holding power comes from the sharp bend created in the rope where it emerges from the Gri-gri and runs to the belayer's hand--if he/she is belaying properly.
Curt
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troutboy
May 27, 2004, 9:43 PM
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Gotta agree with Jay on this. Although you might be able to hold a top rope fall or safely lower someone, a fully unengaged gri-gri has considerably less friction than an ATC (as Jay described). I would be very surprised if someone could consistently hold anything more than the smallest leader fall, and then only if the belayer reacted before the fall (as in the leader said something before he/she came off). I have no data, of course.
Once the leader has fallen, if you do not have a tight grip on the brake hand, the rope will zip through your hand so fast you'll never recover. This is why it is SOOOO neccessary to keep your brake hand in good contact with the rope and locked off as much (often) as possible. By good contact I mean fully around the rope, none of that 2 finger s--t I see more and more often.
The brake hand should be locked off quickly when you are not taking in or paying out rope.
TS
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sarcat
May 27, 2004, 9:51 PM
Post #54 of 101
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In reply to: I think he might have been pinching the gri-gri preventing it from locking off or something.
This is your answer. Your partner just dosen't want to 'fess up.
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curt
May 27, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: Gotta agree with Jay on this. Although you might be able to hold a top rope fall or safely lower someone, a fully unengaged gri-gri has considerably less friction than an ATC (as Jay described). I would be very surprised if someone could consistently hold anything more than the smallest leader fall, and then only if the belayer reacted before the fall (as in the leader said something before he/she came off). I have no data, of course. Once the leader has fallen, if you do not have a tight grip on the brake hand, the rope will zip through your hand so fast you'll never recover. This is why it is SOOOO neccessary to keep your brake hand in good contact with the rope and locked off as much (often) as possible. By good contact I mean fully around the rope, none of that 2 finger s--t I see more and more often. The brake hand should be locked off quickly when you are not taking in or paying out rope. TS
OK--so we need data. Next time I belay Jay on some run-out project of his, I will borrow his Gri-gri, tape the cam open and belay him with it. I will then post the results here. :D
Curt
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unabonger
May 27, 2004, 10:00 PM
Post #56 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: No it doesn't. There's much less friction. I bet if a 150 lb climber took a 10' fall from 20' up a route you'd end up with 3rd degree rope burn in the palm of your hand and they'd be crawling back to the car. Of course we are all speculating, and I'd love to see tests of the holding power of an open grigri. UB I didn't say the open Gri-gri was identical to a tube belay device, hence my use of the words "in essence" in my previous quote. I still stand by my comment above. I have caught heavier climbers on more severe falls (many times) than your proposed example above, using a waist belay and nobody got hurt.
I'm aware you didn't say it was identical. But you did say that you could belay someone safely with a grigri that had the cam held open. That's what I dispute.
And I believe a waist belay would be MUCH safer than belaying with an open cam grigri. This I say after experimenting last night at the gym with feeling out the holding power of the open cam grigri and 115 lb climber, and remembering back to the days when the butt belay was common.
In reply to: And I'm not sure what you mean by testing the "holding power" of an open Gri-gri, as I suspect there is none. The holding power comes from the sharp bend created in the rope where it emerges from the Gri-gri and runs to the belayer's hand--if he/she is belaying properly.
Of course the 'holding power' of an open grigri is zero when no one is holding the rope-that would hold for an ATC or any other device. Who fueking cares about that scenario? Isn't it implied here that someone needs to hold the rope? Otherwise we're back to the case of the grigir actually locking.
And that "sharp bend" you refer to introduces some friction but not nearly as much as an ATC, which doesn't have that great a holding power with 10mm ropes anyway. I'm bettin' ya, curt, that the grigri, and a 10mm rope, it has so little friction when its held open, that if your climber falls on a route with little drag in the system, you're going to be carrying him out because you just don't have enough friction in the system. At best you're going to be nursing a burned belay hand.
UB
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gds
May 27, 2004, 10:14 PM
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I must have good karma. My gri-gri works all the time. Used one for years. Used it to belay seconds. Used it to belay leaders. Also use tube devices and auto blockers. They all work fine.
I have never dropped anyone and never had my hand burned.
Its the belayer- all the devices work fine when used correctly. I don't know why we argue over what misuse scearios will be OK- or not. Let's just not mis use any of the devices.
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deleted
Deleted
May 27, 2004, 10:15 PM
Post #58 of 101
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geez ... why do you people insist on using such a nancy-boy belay device? get yerself a [i:e236d00381]real[/i:e236d00381] hunk of pig-iron -- say a kong figure-8?
it's a belay device, it's a rap device ... it's a partner alignment device. :wink:
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sarcat
May 27, 2004, 10:21 PM
Post #59 of 101
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In reply to: get yerself a real hunk of pig-iron -- say a kong figure-8? it's a belay device, it's a rap device ... it's a partner alignment device. :wink:
This is the funniest statement I've ever read on rc.com. I have a Kong 8 w/ears (rescue 8) and have actually used it in all 3 applicable situations. Make your partner carry it for a while.
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sandbag
May 27, 2004, 11:35 PM
Post #60 of 101
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after the plethora of "belayer drops partner using gri gri" and Gri gri drops climber " etc,
im staying well away from them. screw new fangled, ill take and use ATC, BD pyramid, etc before i get my life dangling from some overrated french foo foo piece a crap like that
Gri Gri's, unsafe at any speed....
:P
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bobd1953
May 28, 2004, 12:23 AM
Post #61 of 101
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In reply to: after the plethora of "belayer drops partner using gri gri" and Gri gri drops climber " etc, im staying well away from them. screw new fangled, ill take and use ATC, BD pyramid, etc before i get my life dangling from some overrated french foo foo piece a crap like that
Do you have a little French-phobia? As stated before, Gri-gri work fine when used right, I know the belayer in this case wasn't working properly.
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sandbag
May 28, 2004, 1:22 AM
Post #62 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: after the plethora of "belayer drops partner using gri gri" and Gri gri drops climber " etc, im staying well away from them. screw new fangled, ill take and use ATC, BD pyramid, etc before i get my life dangling from some overrated french foo foo piece a crap like that Do you have a little French-phobia? As stated before, Gri-gri work fine when used right, I know the belayer in this case wasn't working properly.
Hell No Bob, I love french bread, french wine, and even some of that smelly goat cheese too. im just old fashioned that way.
;)
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grayhghost
May 28, 2004, 1:25 AM
Post #63 of 101
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I fall asleep all the time belaying with a gri-gri at 2am
while my partner is halfway through an 8 hour lead, I
even had to yell at him not to fall because I was taking
a leak and didn't want to dribble. The point is that it is
always user error. And about all the comments regarding
attentive belayers and such. . . when you self-belay during
a solo aid climb how could you ever get anything done with
one hand on the rope?
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sandbag
May 28, 2004, 1:28 AM
Post #64 of 101
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In reply to: I fall asleep all the time belaying with a gri-gri at 2am while my partner is halfway through an 8 hour lead, I even had to yell at him not to fall because I was taking a leak and didn't want to dribble. The point is that it is always user error. And about all the comments regarding attentive belayers and such. . . when you self-belay during a solo aid climb how could you ever get anything done with one hand on the rope?
Kleimheist baby,
what did the old timers used to do anyway :P
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bobd1953
May 28, 2004, 2:34 AM
Post #65 of 101
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In reply to: I have caught heavier climbers on more severe falls (many times) than your proposed example above, using a waist belay and nobody got hurt.
Curt, in 1978 I led the roof pitch of Birdie Party, got over the roof, ran it out about 15 feet and tried to put a nut in. Hardie Truesdale was belaying me by around his waist. I asked for slack, he thought I wanted tension, I came flying off and took a least a fifty-footer. I remember to this day day the sheer look of terror on his face as I went flying by. Hardie like the good belayer he was, caught my fall with a waist belay. We both laughed out asses off when we both realized what just happened! I'll take a good belayer over a gri-gri any-day.
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jt512
May 28, 2004, 2:40 AM
Post #66 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: I have caught heavier climbers on more severe falls (many times) than your proposed example above, using a waist belay and nobody got hurt. Curt, in 1978 I led the roof pitch of Birdie Party, got over the roof, ran it out about 15 feet and tried to put a nut in. Hardie Truesdale was belaying me by around his waist. I asked for slack, he thought I wanted tension, I came flying off and took a least a fifty-footer. I remember to this day day the sheer look of terror on his face as I went flying by. Hardie like the good belayer he was, caught my fall with a waist belay. We both laughed out asses off when we both realized what just happened! I'll take a good belayer over a gri-gri any-day.
Wait. He pulled you off the rock and you call him a "good belayer?"
-Jay
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rockermike
May 28, 2004, 2:40 AM
Post #67 of 101
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I took my gri gri on my last wall and I'm hooked. The things work great for numerous uses - jugging, single line raps (I was soloing which means lots of rapping), hauling. I'll also confess that I have at times found myself nodding off while belaying others on long aid pitches. Of course I "shouldn't" sleep while belaying but sh-t happens. I assume that a gri gri would add a layer of redundancy to the system in this situation (or any climbing situation). Other typical re-world climbing situations: untying shoes while belaying, getting a drink, shifting your weight from one cheek to another - all kinds of things can at least partially distract you while you "should" be paying absolute complete attention. Again I think a gri gri can add a useful layer of redundancy.
I also have my daugter (13 yrs old) use a gri gri when belaying me. We only climbing moderate stuff so I have no business falling but I've always assumed that the gri gri would catch a fall even if she let go of the brake hand (as long as she didn't pinch the release lever - which I always lecture her on). After reading this I realize maybe I have too much confidence in the device. I guess a thicker rope at least would add to the safety. (By the way another good backup if a beginner is belaying (and if someone else is around) is to have a third person take in and hold onto the tail of the brake hand rope. If the belayer blows it the third person can still catch the fall.)
But I have to protest a bit when people think they have resolved the whole issue by simply stating that the "belayer blew it". Yes that may be true but it happens. I think its more useful for us to try to find a solution taking into account that people do make mistakes. That's what the whole redundancy thing is about. If a gri gri won't catch a fall un-attended maybe we need a new device that will. Personally I'd like to see some test data on this.
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bobd1953
May 28, 2004, 3:36 AM
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In reply to: Wait. He pulled you off the rock and you call him a "good belayer?"
Jay, the guy caught a fifty-footer on his waist. That's a good belayer.
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jt512
May 28, 2004, 3:58 AM
Post #69 of 101
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In reply to: In reply to: Wait. He pulled you off the rock and you call him a "good belayer?" Jay, the guy caught a fifty-footer on his waist. That's a good belayer.
I know, but an alternate definition of "good belayer" excludes falls caused by the belayer. I'm just joking around: I don't know under what conditions the the miscomunication took place.
-Jay
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billcoe_
May 28, 2004, 5:29 AM
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The belayer dropped you. He needs practice is all, maybe you'll just go climb with him again and he can get practice that way, but I wouldn't.
Now about the 50 footer:
Are we talking severe rope burns on or about the ass-cheeks and waist or what. I held a 6 footer once that I still remember.
Sound: Sound won't travel under a roof, it always screws up communications.
Bob, was there shrinkage as you flew by? (ie: severe sac shrinkage) as you looked at the 50 footer?
I think I may have shrinkage as I sit here thinking about it.
Bill
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billy
May 28, 2004, 11:16 AM
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Your on lead and you pull on this huge hold that every man and his dog has used and it decides to detach itself and begins to plummet with you to the ground. Within seconds it has hit your belayer and knocked him unconscious. Gri gri once again would save the day. I would hate to see the result if the belayer was using a ATC.
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moondog
May 28, 2004, 2:47 PM
Post #72 of 101
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If a gri gri won't catch a fall un-attended maybe we need a new device that will.
No worries, mate: it already exists!
http://www.extremeengineering.com/Auto_belay.htm
Now, if I could only find the attachment point...
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climbersoze
May 28, 2004, 2:52 PM
Post #73 of 101
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what kind of asshat screws up a belay with a gri-gri? I mean come on.
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airscape
May 28, 2004, 3:02 PM
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I also use a gri gri with a 10.5 mm rope and it works great, a pal of mine has a 10.2mm and when I used the gri gri on that, I found that the cam only engages at the absolute extreme end just before it would not work anymore (hope this makes sence), I found that one really has to concentrate on your belaying when you use such a thin rope cause the rope runs quite abit before it actually stops causing rope burn. even though a gri gri is supposed to take a 10mm rope I don't feel comfortable belaying with it under 10.5mm
other than that I've never had a problem
M :)
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jt512
May 28, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #75 of 101
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In reply to: I also use a gri gri with a 10.5 mm rope and it works great, a pal of mine has a 10.2mm and when I used the gri gri on that, I found that the cam only engages at the absolute extreme end just before it would not work anymore (hope this makes sence), I found that one really has to concentrate on your belaying when you use such a thin rope cause the rope runs quite abit before it actually stops causing rope burn.
What? The rope runs quite a bit before it stops, causing rope burn? How come that's never happened to me? Either you're not using the device correctly or it is badly worn and needs to be replaced.
-Jay
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