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orestes1724


Sep 2, 2001, 5:20 PM
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is lead climbing more dangerious then top rope??? if it is how much more??? my step dad said its way more dangerious and you can get hurt really easlly...he also said if you fall the "pegs" can come out of the rock but im not sure if hes lieing or he just doesnt know??????


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Sep 2, 2001, 7:02 PM
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I'm going say it truly comes down to the person climbing. With top roping, if the person setting anchors is a absolute moron, you're chances of dying are much greater than if some trad guru is setting the pro.

Each has its own safety advantages, but each has its own safety disadvantages. If you learn the skills needed to climb safely, both should be equally safe.

It then comes down to difficulty. Setting pro is much of the time much more difficult then placing a top rope...and blah blah blah...see where I'm going?



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Sep 2, 2001, 9:18 PM
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Think of it this way:

If your toproping and you fall, you'll only fall the amount of slack+stretch in the line,
a few feet.

If your leading and you're above your last piece, you'll fall twice the amount you're above the piece+slack+stretch, 10 feet above WILL equal more than a 20 foot fall and so on.

OFCOURSE leading is more dangerous than TRing.

rrrADAM


climberchk


Sep 3, 2001, 1:40 AM
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I must agree. There are so many more things that can go wrong with leading compared to climbing on a top rope. No matter what way you climb, there is always a risk. Leading just has a few more than TR does. But if done correctly, and with the proper know-how, you can grealty reduce your risks! Hope it helped!


daisuke


Sep 3, 2001, 1:26 PM
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one big difference in leading is the chance of slamming into the rock/wall on the way down, and if you're on a gym wall that can mean a grip in the side. you don't have this problem with toproping since you just hang when you fall, still... leading can be more fun at times. if a climb is no longer motivating in toprope you can up the ante and lead it.

protection shouldn't come out if it's well set, cams can come out but I doubt your dad will have a say in the matter or will mind once you're ready for it


orestes1724


Sep 3, 2001, 4:20 PM
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my dads an ass and he doesnt care if im ready...its if he feels like it. lol.


orestes1724


Sep 3, 2001, 4:28 PM
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thanks guys


climberchk


Sep 3, 2001, 10:47 PM
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Good luck with him!


MikeDierson


Feb 7, 2013, 11:17 AM
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orestes1724 wrote:
is lead climbing more dangerious then top rope??? if it is how much more??? my step dad said its way more dangerious and you can get hurt really easlly...he also said if you fall the "pegs" can come out of the rock but im not sure if hes lieing or he just doesnt know??????

I destest the opinion that it is more dangerous. In top roping you have a three mabey four point anchor. That's is! In situation of catastrophic anchor failure, you go lights out as they say in my country. In the lead the anchor is supplimented by your pro selections in the lead. If anchor fails its a switch over to simul-climb senerio and anchor can be reistabuished. The uncle sounds ingorent of the complexities of the situation. Climb on young lad. Lead and learn as they say.


(This post was edited by MikeDierson on Feb 7, 2013, 11:33 AM)


bearbreeder


Feb 7, 2013, 11:37 AM
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i am the necromancer ... you may have been dead for 12 years ... but i will re-animate you

muhahahaha Tongue


skelldify


Feb 7, 2013, 3:52 PM
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[quote "orestes1724"]my dads an ass and he doesnt care if im ready...its if he feels like it. lol.[/quote]


Doesn't sound like either of you are ready.


SylviaSmile


Feb 7, 2013, 7:09 PM
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skelldify wrote:
[quote "orestes1724"]my dads an ass and he doesnt care if im ready...its if he feels like it. lol.[/quote]


Doesn't sound like either of you are ready.

Given that it's been 12 years, let's hope they are ready now. Or at least not dead.


skelldify


Feb 7, 2013, 7:32 PM
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Ahahaha! Good point!


cervicornis


Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM
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It's been a while since I last browsed RC.com. Wow. I feel sad.


SylviaSmile


Feb 8, 2013, 2:33 PM
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On the other hand, wouldn't it be fun to start spelling it "dangerious"?


Syd


Feb 8, 2013, 3:00 PM
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In reply to:
I destest the opinion that it is more dangerous. In top roping you have a three mabey four point anchor. That's is! In situation of catastrophic anchor failure, you go lights out as they say in my country.

I use 2, rarely 3 on TR. The chances of an anchor such as a living tree 6 inches or more in diameter having "catastrophic failure" are ridiculously remote. The only real dangers from correctly set up TRs are short radius swings on wandering routes, rockfall ... but these risks can be minimised.

Conversely, the opportunities for failures leading to injury when leading are many. Injuries (or death) when leading are inevitable if you climb long enough, no matter how good or careful you are. For example, one of the best and most experienced climbers in the country broke both his ankles leading a route he had bolted himself.

Abseiling is probably more dangerous than either, mainly because of foolhardiness.


maldaly


Feb 9, 2013, 8:50 AM
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There are more injuries top roping and lowering and more deaths leading. You pick: which is more dangerous?

Climb Safe,
Malcolm


Syd


Feb 9, 2013, 1:17 PM
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maldaly wrote:
There are more injuries top roping ...

Where did you get your data ?


maldaly


Feb 9, 2013, 2:30 PM
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ANAM. But realize that they only cover accidents that require a rescue or ones that are self reported. Gym accidents and sport climbing accidents rarely make it in.


(This post was edited by maldaly on Feb 9, 2013, 2:32 PM)


Syd


Feb 9, 2013, 2:46 PM
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Link please. There's nothing here to suggest that top roping has more injuries:
http://americanalpineclub.org/p/anam-statistics

This report suggests that leaders have far more accidents, deaths and injuries than seconds, (equivalent to top roping) :
http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_WEMJ_RMRG_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf


Syd


Feb 11, 2013, 9:55 AM
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From the lack of response, it is apparent that there is no data that suggests top roping is more dangerous than leading. It should be obvious to any climber that leading is far more dangerous than top roping.


marc801


Feb 11, 2013, 10:00 AM
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Syd wrote:
From the lack of response, it is apparent that there is no data...
No it isn't. You asked on a Saturday afternoon and got all pissy on Monday morning. Just maybe people who care enough to do your research for you have lives outside of RC. Maybe they're even climbing.


Parkerkat


Feb 11, 2013, 11:34 AM
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I would counter that statement as it automatically implies everyone is exactly the same, which they aren't. What I can say after working on and off in the gym and climbing 5 years outdoors is that TRing is FAR more dangerous than Leading. Why?
- you don't wake up one day as a non-climber and say Hey - lets go lead some rock - typically you build up to it and learn the skills needed and how to belay before you lead.
- the nature of leading also means you're usually full systems-go, not in autopilot as I've seen Many TRs do (just pull that slack, no need to even watch them climb - dumb!!)
- There is a far greater likelyhood that when TRing, there are more beginners than experienced climbers - that just how it goes - almost everyone starts on a TR, so the likelyhood of those on a TR having little to no experience is far greater than when leading.

I end it by saying - So far, I've been lucky and encountered very few mishaps outdoors by leaders.. I think maybe once and it was more of a bad math situation (the leader was one draw short)... but what I can say is that I can't even count the number of gym and outdoor accidents or near accidents from those Top Roping.

As the first person to respond said - its all safe and sound if you take the time to learn the skills. [


Syd


Feb 11, 2013, 3:07 PM
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OK, so it's Monday ... where's the data supporting the crap the TR is more dangerous ?
Sure, more beginners TR than lead and I've seen plenty of stupid stuff and maybe some minor scrapes but it is absolute rubbish to claim it is more dangerous than leading.


jt512


Feb 11, 2013, 6:06 PM
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maldaly wrote:
There are more injuries top roping and lowering and more deaths leading. You pick: which is more dangerous?

Your categories seem strange. Are top roping, lowering, and leading supposed to be mutually exclusive? If so, then I have trouble believing that top roping (excluding lowering) is more dangerous than leading (excluding lowering).

Jay


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Feb 11, 2013, 6:53 PM
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Syd wrote:
OK, so it's Monday ... where's the data supporting the crap the TR is more dangerous ?...


Dear Syd - The "data" comes from that person's many, many years climbing(since 1969, according to this...data)
http://www.accessfund.org/...15733&ct=6816317

I think maldaly has seen a few things in those years, and probably enough that he could hazard a fairly accurate statement when it comes to results from TR's gone wrong vs. lead climbing accidents.

Which is more dangerous? The one you are doing at the moment, I guess!


(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 11, 2013, 6:54 PM)


Syd


Feb 11, 2013, 8:29 PM
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One man's personal opinion is not "data" !

There's dozens of experienced climbers here amongst the 234,943 users (that's data).


(This post was edited by Syd on Feb 11, 2013, 8:32 PM)


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Feb 12, 2013, 7:57 AM
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I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

You then command he produce links to back up his point as if he was some gumby that's been climbing about half a year.


I've only been climbing a half dozen years or so, but thinking back of all the accidents I know of from my local crag in that time, there has been only one death from toprope(anchor wrapped round a tree was incompleted with carabiner connection point, apparently). There's been several deaths on the lead, maybe half a dozen in my memory.

I wouldn't be able to say definitively the injuries on lead vs TR, but when I bring the ones I can recall to my mind, I recall plenty of tweaked ankles broken ankles, broken legs and ribs and the like. Usually the result of rope stretch or belayer error/inattentiveness(such as too much slack when a fall would go to a ledge). I come up with two lead injuries that involved a broken back and another becoming parapalegic.


What about yourself? Can you recall the injuries and deaths you personally know of and come to any conclusions?



And as for lots of experience on this site... well, let's see.... I can think of Maldaly and RGold, Curt and maybe a handful of others, but....I'dbe hard pressed to come up with dozens, frankly.

By the way - where's your data to support that?Tongue


jt512


Feb 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

First of all, Mal's claim was ambiguous, as I mentioned in my previous post, and depending on how you resolve the ambiguity, possibly false. If you exclude lowering accidents, is it really true that there are more injuries top roping than leading? I'm skeptical. Further, if you want to answer the question, Which is inherently more dangerous? then you have to compare the activities for equally experienced climbers and consider the accident rate per pitch climbed. On that basis, I can't imagine how top roping could be considered more dangerous than leading.

However, the demand for hard data was unreasonable, since none likely exist, at least for US climbers. No one, to my knowledge, collects, or has collected, reliable statistics. It would be interesting, though, if Mal would clarify his claim and explain why he thinks it is true.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 AM
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jt512 wrote:
happiegrrrl wrote:
I didn't notice Mal's post mentioning anything like "data shows" when he made that post.

He stated a point, possibly an observation he has made over the decades he's been climbing. Possibly he recalls researched information he's seen as a rep for the gear company he worked for or the one he created.

First of all, Mal's claim was ambiguous, as I mentioned in my previous post, and depending on how you resolve the ambiguity, possibly false. If you exclude lowering accidents, is it really true that there are more injuries top roping than leading? I'm skeptical. Further, if you want to answer the question, Which is inherently more dangerous? then you have to compare the activities for equally experienced climbers and consider the accident rate per pitch climbed. On that basis, I can't imagine how top roping could be considered more dangerous than leading.

However, the demand for hard data was unreasonable, since none likely exist, at least for US climbers. No one, to my knowledge, collects, or has collected, reliable statistics. It would be interesting, though, if Mal would clarify his claim and explain why he thinks it is true.

Jay

I got the sense that Mal was suggestion leading is more dangerous since, well, according to him, more people die doing it. To me, that's more dangerous.

But I believe that it's possible more injuries can come from top-roping simply because it's reasonable to think that there are more inexperienced people top-roping (i.e. - the gumby factor leads to more injuries).

I don't have data of course, but that's how I read it. I also read TR and lowering as being in the same category with leading in a separate category. Sure, one also typically lowers when leading, but one probably lowers more often when TRing. I've rarely walked off a TR, unless I was cleaning the anchors.


shimanilami


Feb 12, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Assuming all other things are equal - e.g. anchor quality, climber/belayer skill level and state of mind, etc. - leading is more dangerous than top-roping. This is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgeon of sense.

If more people are injured top-toping, then it is because "other things" are not equal, not because the activity itself is more dangerous.


Syd


Feb 12, 2013, 2:45 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
...leading is more dangerous than top-roping. This is patently obvious to anyone with a smidgeon of sense.

Yes. clearly there's plenty who don't have a smidgeon of sense.

Of course, you can make leading or top roping as dangerous as you want by choosing stupid belayers or doing any number of stupid things. If top roping was inherently more dangerous that leading, leading would not have 25 times the number of accidents as seconding (data in table 6):

http://www.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_WEMJ_RMRG_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf


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