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jumpingrock
Mar 9, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Oh man this is funny...
Heh... it's like argueing over whether it's better to climb on a 10.5 rope or a 10.3 rope.
Both methods work. Both methods are safe. There are situations where it would stupid as shit to rap with both hands below the device, and there are situations where it would be stupid as shit to rap with one hand above and one below the device. In the case of the picture in question, it is not stupid as shit to have one hand below the device and one hand over the device. On the other hand it seems like it might be stupid as shit to rappel with two hands below the device. Had he extended the rappel device then yes usually you will have both hands below. We are argueing apples and apples. But it's good for a laugh, and dude... you are digging yourself a hole. Not because you are neccesarily wrong but because you refuse to accept that other people are also right. By the way I am canadian and I do both, hands below or one below and one above. Depends on my move. So don't be giving us Canadians a bad name.
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jumpingrock
Mar 9, 2005, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: I thought about it some more, and realized that when I was a complete noob, and just learning how to rap in the first place and had just learned what a prussik was, I loaded it below the belay device... then realized that it was stupid since it gets sucked up into the device itself and never even gets loaded in the first place. think about it, a prussik doesn't load until there's weight on it. how the heck are you going to load a prussik when it's below you? :shock: hosh.
You could extend your rappel device using a sling (or two if you are paranoid and need redundency) Either that or attach the prussik to your leg loop and keep it short. IMHO works much better than above the device because it is much easier to unload after you load it (ie only needs to put as much pressure as your hand does as opposed to your entire body weight)
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:00 PM
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Iam not digging a hole, this is a conversation with participants posting at their will.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:03 PM
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jake,
thats old school, I dont need a picture from 1980, look at his biner device.
Jumpingrock what you said is mostly correct, except you dont need to extend the device.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:06 PM
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lightandfast trust me when I say that your betters are giving you an awful lot of slack in this thread. Please quit while you are ahead. In times not long in the past your ass would have been handed to you in a sling. Please stop baiting these guys, they have been around forever and do absolutely know their stuff, in fact some of them have written the book on this stuff and you are trying to lecture them. Mate, get a clue already. Leave it alone fer crying out loud. This will definitely turn ugly if you persist.
Is any one a hostage here? Free to come and go.
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jakedatc
Mar 9, 2005, 11:09 PM
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Actually it doesnt matter what rap device you use.(by the way.. your military example uses EXACTLY that set up or less) That picture is from Freedom of the Hills 6th Edition Copyright 1997
:roll: oh wait thats a smiley..
:roll: :roll: sorry couldnt help myself
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wideguy
Mar 9, 2005, 11:10 PM
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Personally, in my INCREDIBLY limited experience, I use the autoblock. I suspect this may be what alot of people are referring to. I find that when rigged right it works much more effectively and is MUCH easier to release when weighted than an upper prussik. Plus, I feel more comfortable with the concept that in that configuration my belay device is still doing all the actual weight bearing instead of relying just on the cord to hold my CONSIDERABLE posterior.
In this orientation I rappel one hand above for balance/stability and one below to control my descent. If rigged right it is easy to keep out of the device.
But what do i know? 8^)
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blowboarder
Mar 9, 2005, 11:11 PM
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Oh man, I generally strive to never stray from the bounds of community (Many trips like this would lead to a lifelong ban, that I'm comfortable in knowing) but Light-in-his-loafers-&-way-too-fast-in-the-sack drew me out of my familiar confines.
One question, assmunch. You learned to climb in a gym, didn't you?
Thought so, now shut the fuck up and take this opportunity to learn from these guys that have been getting home safely before the first climbing gym was a twinkle in your daddies eye.
You want to argue safety systems with people that know their shit, here's a good place to start:
Do a google search on rock climbing and learn the correct terms for the systems used in this activity, it's obvious from your responses that you don't know fuck all about climbing. Then, after you've covered the very basics, go out and buy Mountaineering:The freedom of the hills and every technical book Largo ever published. Then find someone who has actually gone rock climbing and have them show you what all the stuff in the book that you couldn't understand actually means.
Also, some dude certifying newbies on belay techniques at your local gym is not a guide, no matter what he tells you.
Rock climbers, by the very nature of their activity of choice, are shit for brains. Congratulations, you illustrate this very well.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:19 PM
Post #85 of 170
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thanks for your valuable contribution.
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blowboarder
Mar 9, 2005, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: thanks for your valuable contribution.
Just trying to keep pace with your illuminating posts.
Send the blue/green tape route in the gym yet? That things tough.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:24 PM
Post #87 of 170
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too tough for me
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blowboarder
Mar 9, 2005, 11:30 PM
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In reply to: too tough for me
I got beta. It always helps me to take both hands off my rope when rapelling (you do send problems in the gym while on rappel, right?) and match on that big green blobby thing. From their it's over.
And to everyone else that contributed in this thread, I think someone needs to point out:
If it lives under a bridge and smells like ass.....
It's probably a troll.
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gastone
Mar 9, 2005, 11:31 PM
Post #89 of 170
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In reply to: load your prussik below the belay device and no problem. Thank you for good conversation
More gear, more gear to set up, and the possibility exists for getting the prussik jammed in your rap device and then you could really be screwed. Don't think so.
And the analogy about not using a hand above the device when using it for a belay.....the rope is also going in the opposite direction the majority of the time so that argument doesn't hold much water with me.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:32 PM
Post #90 of 170
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give me a break,
Iam a troll now.
open your mind
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tradalltheway
Mar 9, 2005, 11:34 PM
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http://atiam.train.army.mil/...m/3-97.61/fig7-6.gif
I'm not trying to fight but since you made the military comment a few pages back and I happen to be aware of the military mountaineering Field Manual, here's a picture out of the 2002 edition of the US Army's Military Mountaineering Field Manual. This is how we do it.
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gastone
Mar 9, 2005, 11:34 PM
Post #92 of 170
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In reply to: Why do you need a prussik backup if you have two hands below the device? Isn't that triple redundancy? Do you always drive with two hands on the wheel, always? Is your knee also close enough to the bottom of the steering column to take over in an emergency? Is this a real question as to why ?
The two hands are controlled by the same human. One error or accident (i.e. someone getting knocked out) could result in both hand being turned lose. Not exactly redundancy let alone triple redundancy.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:37 PM
Post #93 of 170
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my military comment was a joke.
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blowboarder
Mar 9, 2005, 11:40 PM
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In reply to: give me a break, Iam a troll now. open your mind
My minds blown wide open, thank you very much. If it's not a troll, then I'm laughing even harder.
There's old climbers and there's bold climbers and some of these boys you're losing this argument to are old, bold climbers. They know their shit.
Myself, I never wear a helmet climbing. Why would I? I don't wear one driving down to the corner store, and we all know the stats on that one.
I don't ever have both hands below the belay device unless I'm doing an Aussie rapell with a bunch of slack out. In fact, back when the Fed's paid me to rapell out of helicopters, I used to take both hands off the rope and use them both to pump the rope thru the device faster (Why hang out under a full power hover with no chance of an autorotate from 250 feet?) and then brake at full speed inches from the ground.
I never tie ropes together when rapelling unless I'm rapping in the dark and I don't use backups to my rapell device.
And I would never try to convince anyone else they should do things my way.
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tradalltheway
Mar 9, 2005, 11:40 PM
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....as is the carabiner break system seen in the picture. I wouldn't exactly put the military in the pool of safe mountaineers.
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wjca
Mar 9, 2005, 11:41 PM
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His "old School" "biner device" is called a "biner brake". BB was right, learn some terminology. Sorry to bite at the troll again.
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lightandfast
Mar 9, 2005, 11:45 PM
Post #97 of 170
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i give up
cant fight it if you think im trolling
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tradalltheway
Mar 9, 2005, 11:46 PM
Post #98 of 170
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hey, you weren't biting at the troll, you were biting at me. I was simply commenting on the picture that I posted, stating that I too at times disagree with the way my comrades do things.
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philbox
Moderator
Mar 9, 2005, 11:49 PM
Post #99 of 170
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See now there`s the sling I was telling you about, blowboarder just used it. Here`s your ass. Step away from the keyboard and put your hands on the wall.
Sorry for the dogpile lightandfast but I did try to save you from yourself. Now maybe people will start to listen to me around here.
Hey BB, go a little bit easier eh. Now back to community with you (unfurls bullwhip and sends a couple of lashes towards BB).
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blowboarder
Mar 9, 2005, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: Hey BB, go a little bit easier eh. Now back to community with you (unfurls bullwhip and sends a couple of lashes towards BB).
OUCH! Thank you sir, may I have another
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