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carlvphillips
Aug 25, 2005, 9:29 PM
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Hi. I am a professor of public health and climber (actually, I think I have to face the fact that I am an ex-climber now), and am doing some research on mortality from falls from certain heights. (As a bit of background: falls get used as a metaphor for death rates from certain other exposures in a misleading way, and I am trying to document that it is misleading.) I am trying to find out if the climbing community knows -- either in the form of lore or more careful study -- what the mortality rate is for ground falls from certain heights (pendulums into buttresses and other complications are beyond the scope).
I am particularly interested in relatively small probabilities, such as what height creates a 1% or even a 1/1000 chance of death, on up to about 25%, though I am also somewhat interested in the cutpoint for almost-100% mortality. I have found some data from the occupational health literature, but data from and about climbers is elusive, so any information would be appreciated.
Also, I realize that it makes a lot of difference how you land, what you land on, etc. I am not attempting to specify those terms, but am just letting them be part of the probability (e.g., if you die from height X if and only if you land on your head on a rock, and you land on your head on a rock 1% of the time, then that gives the 1% average mortality that I am looking for).
Thanks!
Carl V Phillips
Associate Professor, University of Alberta Department of Public Health Sciences
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shakylegs
Aug 25, 2005, 9:40 PM
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Wait, let me get some popcorn. Because this is going to get interesting.
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euthanasia
Aug 25, 2005, 9:42 PM
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I can't imagine a person surviving a fall from over 40ft
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euthanasia
Aug 25, 2005, 9:43 PM
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That's as specific as I can get
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sirdrinksalot
Aug 25, 2005, 9:53 PM
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More than once a man has stood on the ground, fell over, and died due to injuries sustained from that fall. So, I would venture to guess that even tripping over your shoelace would increase your chances of fatal injury at least .1%. Any actuaries out there?
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eellis
Aug 25, 2005, 9:53 PM
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I know Lynn Hill survived a 72 or so Footer, with minor injuries and was back climbing a few months later. (she talks about it in her book Climbing Free).
Joe Simpson survived a 130 footer, although he landed on snow (in a crevass).
Those are the biggest I know of.
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sirdrinksalot
Aug 25, 2005, 9:55 PM
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A female friend of mine fell about 30ft. and broke her back. She was walking two weeks later.
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majid_sabet
Aug 25, 2005, 9:58 PM
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I remember reading about a story of a parachute jumper falling to ground from several thousand feet without his chute opening and survived, but most cases I read related to climbing had major injuries and death, go to supertopo.com and post and see what you get, but either way keep us informed about your research.
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skinnyclimber
Aug 25, 2005, 10:53 PM
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OK who's up for being an experimental subject?
...Anyone?
"How come I have to be 45-feet-into-the-talus guy? Huh?"
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ebelay
Aug 25, 2005, 11:09 PM
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I watched a 19 year old kid deck from 100 feet. He landed on packed dirt and partly on my rope. Somehow, he lived.
He had multiple compound fractures of both legs, a very broken arm and his left foot was hanging from ligaments and a little bit of flesh with the climbing shoe still on it. There was blood and shit everywhere - it was awful. My partner and I did our best to keep him calm for nearly two hours while he screamed and faded in and out of consciousness.
I truly hope your research helps, because this is the horrible reality of what happens in groundfalls.
You never, ever get the sound out of your head.
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drector
Aug 25, 2005, 11:09 PM
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I have heard, and this is just folklore from some health care professionals a while back, is that the odds of death from a fall are directly related to the height. This was more about falling off of ladders and other industrial falls that are unexpected, not for jumping off of something and having some amount of control such as a climber might have.
10 foot fall = 10% chance of death.
50 foot fall = 50% chance of death.
100 foot fall = 100% chance of death.
... and all of the percentages in-between.
The 10% number seems wrong to me as a gut feeling but higher numbers seem like they would be fairly accurate. Try interviewing some doctors and nurses at emergency rooms instead of climbers who don't know all that much about other peoples accidents.
Dave
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euthanasia
Aug 25, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: I remember reading about a story of a parachute jumper falling to ground from several thousand feet without his chute opening and survived, but most cases I read related to climbing had major injuries and death, go to supertopo.com and post and see what you get, but either way keep us informed about your research.
You can't be serious :shock: , how the hell does a person survive a fall at terminal velocity? Did he hit water or dirt?
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marc801
Aug 25, 2005, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: You can't be serious :shock: , how the hell does a person survive a fall at terminal velocity? |
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majid_sabet
Aug 25, 2005, 11:28 PM
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This may help
----------------------------------------------
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malindi, Kenya: In October of 2004 Irish Guard Lt. Charlie Williams fell 3,500 feet headfirst with his feet caught in the cords of his tangled parachute. He was unable to pull his reserve. He thought he was going to die but was saved when he plunged through the corrugated roof of a well-placed hut. His injuries: three cracked vertebrae and a dislocated finger.
Christine McKenzie Carletonville, South Africa: In August of 2004 recreational skydiver Christine McKenzie jumped at 11,000 feet but her main parachute didn't open. She tried her reserve and it released, but several lines broke and it never fully deployed. As she spun toward the ground she hit some power lines, which slowed her fall. She survived with a fractured pelvic bone and some bruises. It was her 112th jump. She says she wants to jump again.
Tang Lee Ping Kuala Lumpur: In February of 2001 Tang Lee Ping of Malaysia fell 1,500 meters after her main and back-up parachutes failed to open. She woke up three hours later in a nearby hospital. Her injuries were minor (only bruises). She attributed her survival to God and a soft landing area.
Gus Bernardoni On September 17, 1944 Gus Bernardoni was a member of the 501st Parachute Infantry, which was jumping into Holland as part of the invasion. The plane lurched as he jumped and he fell into the risers and suspension lines of his parachute. In addition, two equipment bundles dropped from other planes tangled with him as he fell. He fell about 300 feet to the ground with one bundle (a 500-lb. mortar) falling on top of him. After lengthy hospitalization, Bernardoni recovered. A doctor suggested he take up golf as a therapeutic measure and today Bernardoni is well-known for his work with handicapped golfers. His book "Golf God's Way" includes a description of his accident, Bernardoni's philosophy on golf, and also stories of amputees and others who have taken up golf despite their physical handicaps.
Arch Deal Cypress Gardens, FL: In June of 1975, Arch Deal made a skydive as part of a promotional stunt for Channel 8 News. His parachute failed to open and he fell 3,000 feet into "loose soil" in an orange grove. Spectators found him there alive thirty minutes later. Deal returned to skydiving and has made 4,500 jumps since his accident, many of them as head of the Miller Brewing Company's skydiving team.
Bear Grylls South Africa: Sometime around 1999, a British soldier named Bear Grylls fell thousands of feet when his parachute failed to open properly. Three years later he became the youngest British mountaineer to reach the top of Mount Everest. He wrote about his experiences in a book called "The Kid Who Climbed Everest".
Lois Frotten Marstons Mills, MA: In July of 1962, a day after becoming engaged, Lois Frotten and her fiancé celebrated with their first skydive. Unfortunately, Frotten's foot became tangled in the rigging and her main parachute never fully opened. However at a low altitude it began to blossom and so she stopped tumbling and fell feet first into Mystic Lake. Two bystanders saw her fall and went out in a motorboat to retrieve her. By that time her jumpmaster had reached her and was there to help her into the boat. Frotten broke her nose and several vertebrae, but outside of a week in the hospital and some time in a back brace, she was fine.
Sharon McLelland Queensville, Ontario, Canada: In September of 1994, McLelland's main parachute malfunctioned and she failed to deploy her reserve. Aided by the streaming parachute and a landing in soft dirt, McLelland's first reaction was to apologize to her instructor for not using her reserve.
Joan Murray Charlotte, North Carolina: In September of 1999, Joan Murray's main parachute failed during a jump from 14,500 feet. Her reserve opened at around 700 feet, but then deflated. She landed in a mound of fire ants, whose stinging may have helped keep her heart beating. In a coma for two weeks, she was well enough to head home six weeks later. She returned to jumping in July of 2001.
Gareth Griffith Umatilla, Florida: In a tandem jump (i.e., a student and instructor jumping simultaneously) in June of 1997, Griffith pulled his ripcord at 5,500 feet, but the main chute partially failed, which triggered the reserve chute to be opened. The reserve chute tangled with part of the main chute, and despite cutting away the main chute, the reserve was never fully cleared. Griffith, the student, landed on top of Michael Costello, the instructor. Griffith survived, but Costello did not.
Carol Murray Bradford, Ontario, Canada: In 1997, Carol Murray went skydiving for the first time. Her main parachute failed and her reserve tangled in the main. She landed in rain-softened ground in someone's front yard, only feet away from the house, a tree, and the driveway. After years of rehabilitation, she is able to walk and is now working full-time.
Kevin and Beverly McIlwee Vannes, France: In May of 2001, a newlywed couple made a tandem jump from 13,000 feet. The main chute failed and became tangled in the reserve, the couple landed in grass and both suffered severe leg injuries.
Klint Freemantle Auckland, New Zealand: In August of 1993, Freemantle's main and reserve parachutes failed to open. He fell 3,600 feet and landed in a shallow duck pond. He walked away with just a small cut over his left eye.
Craig Paton Auchterarder, Perthshire, Scotland: Paton's main parachute failed and so did his reserve. He fell 3,200 feet, landed on a grassy embankment, and suffered a severe chest injury. A newspaper account estimated his speed at more than 40 miles per hour. He was put in a drug-induced coma, but was expected to survive.
Lynda Harding Lake Elsinore, California: In April of 2001 on her ninth jump, Harding's main parachute failed and her reserve tangled in her main. A newspaper account estimated that she hit the ground at 70 to 80 miles per hour. She spent a week in intensive care with a variety of injuries, but was expected to make a full recovery.
Brett Shabey Tecumseh, Michigan: In September of 1995, Schabey's main chute failed. His auxiliary opened late and he landed in a pond. A colleague swam out to help him. He survived, though he ended up in the hospital in serious condition.
Michael Cox Fort Bragg, NC: In the summer of 1977, Michael Cox was a Radio-Teletype operator in the 82nd Airborne division. Jumping with a heavy equipment bag from 1,200 feet out of a C-130, Cox hit the side of the plane and spun as he fell, which prevented his parachute from opening properly. With his parachute streaming uselessly above him, he hit the ground in a sandy area. He was knocked out for about 45 minutes, but recovered well enough to hike back to the mustering point where the company commander ordered him to do fifty push-ups for arriving late. Cox collapsed and was taken to the emergency room where he was found to have a neck fracture. He recovered and jumped again about six weeks later.
Other Examples
* Dave Clements, April 2001, probably in the United Kingdom
* Michael Vederman, August 1997, Quincy, IL
* Geoff Divco & Jerome Rich, January 1997, Corowa, Australia
* Rob Lock, September 1996, probably in the United Kingdom
* Jill Shields, May 1991, Geauga County, Ohio
* Darren Weber, March 1991, Muskogie, OK
* G.B. Booth, 1940, probably in England
* Eddie Szula, late 1930s/early 1940s, probably in the United States (see Other Amazing Stories)
* Lt. "Bugs" Fisher, 1924, Lake Michigan
* Dragan Curcic, October 2002, eastern Europe, probably Serbia (see Incident Log)
* Cliff Judkins, June 1963, Pacific Ocean (see Other Amazing Stories)
* Michael Gifford, June 2002, near Davis, CA
* Glenn Hood, June 2002, Jarvis Lake, western Alberta Canada (see Incident Log)
* Paul Delaney, July 1998, Wainwright (near Calgary, Alberta, Canada)
* Bren Jones, December 1997?, Lincolnshire, eastern England
* S D Magidela, September 2002, South Africa (see Incident Log)
* David Clements, April 2001, Coventry, England
Unlucky? Well, yes, but at least their parachutes worked...
There is also a group of unlucky skydivers who were unlucky in a different way. Their parachutes worked, but something else went terribly wrong.
* Leon Sebek: In August of 2002 Leon Sebek was on the wing spar of a Cessna 182 waiting to jump when his main parachute deployed prematurely. The open parachute slammed him against the horizontal stabilizer. Under the open parachute he fell unconscious and landed in a quarry. It took searchers eight hours to find him. Due to his head injuries, he was in a coma until September but had recovered well enough to return home by December.
* William Rankin: In 1959, Lt. Col. William Rankin was flying at 47,000 feet when he had to eject from his F8U jet over Norfolk, Virginia due to an engine failure. He parachuted into the middle of a severe thunderstorm that carried him over 65 miles to Rich Square, North Carolina. The trip took over 40 minutes.
* Didier Dahran: In May of 1993, Frenchman Didier Dahran parachuted at 1,000 feet and was caught in a cyclone that lifted him to 25,000 feet. His first parachute collapsed at that point and he used his reserve to descend to earth some 30 miles from where he started. The incident happened in the vicinity of Boulac, France.
* Mathieu Gagnon: In June of 2002, Gagnon was sucked into a dark storm cloud while parachuting in Ontario and was pulled up by the storm. After rising 1,000 meters, he cut away his main parachute and fell out of the clouds. Using his reserve he came down about 25 kilometers south of the airfield where he was supposed to land.
* Alan Peters: While skydiving in western Massachusetts in November of 1993, Alan Peters was free-falling when he struck the vertical stabilizer of a plane flying below. This caused the plane to spin out of control and crash, killing all four people aboard. The collision broke Peters' ankle, but he was able to open his parachute and land safely.
* Dana Bowman: In February of 1994 while practicing a two-man maneuver for the U.S. Army Golden Knights, Sgt. First Class Dana Bowman collided with his partner, Sgt. Jose Aguillon. They were moving toward each other so quickly that Aguillon's arm sheered off Bowman's legs, one leg above the knee and the other below the knee. Bowman's parachute opened and he survived. Aguillon's automatic opening device deployed his parachute, but it was too late to save him.
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tangen_foster
Aug 25, 2005, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I remember reading about a story of a parachute jumper falling to ground from several thousand feet without his chute opening and survived, but most cases I read related to climbing had major injuries and death, go to supertopo.com and post and see what you get, but either way keep us informed about your research. You can't be serious :shock: , how the hell does a person survive a fall at terminal velocity? Did he hit water or dirt?
I remember hearing about this too...he landed prone, completely flat on his stomach and broke his nose.
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majid_sabet
Aug 25, 2005, 11:35 PM
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The highest one I know is 33000 Feet, here is the story
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=43941
Highest Fall Survived Without A Parachute
Vesna Vulovic, a flight attendant from Yugoslavia, survived a fall from 10,160 m (33,330 ft) when the DC-9 airplane she was traveling in blew up over Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic), on January 26, 1972. A terrorist bomb was thought to be the cause, and no other passengers survived. Vesna broke both legs and was temporarily paralyzed from the waist down.
Vesna remembers nothing, but later learned that a former nurse, Bruno Henke, saw Vesna's legs sticking out of the fuselage. Bruno cleared Vesna's airways before rushing her to hospital. Three days later she awoke from a coma in a hospital in Ceska, Karmenice.
She says, "I was so lucky to have survived! I hit the earth – not the trees, not the snow, but the frozen ground." Strangely, the first words she uttered, "Can I have a cigarette," were in English!
Luckily, she suffered no psychological trauma, and no fear of flying. Prevented from returning to her job, she forged a new career in administration. "I was able to fly over the world for free," she says. Her experience has helped her form a philosophical attitude towards life. "I believe we are masters of our lives - we hold all the cards and it is up to us to use them right."
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theishofoz
Aug 25, 2005, 11:39 PM
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i have heard that a base jumper jumped the camtian and her chute didnt deploy and when she hit, it set off car alarms in the valley
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ambler
Aug 25, 2005, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: I can't imagine a person surviving a fall from over 40ft
From http://www.truthsearcher.com/AbnFacts.htm
"Lieutenant I. M. Chisov of the former Soviet Union was flying his Ilyushin 4 on a bitter cold day in January 1942, when it was attacked by 12 German Messerschmitts. Convinced that he had no chance of surviving if he staged with his badly battered plane, Chisov bailed out at 21,980 feet. With the fighters still buzzing around, Chisov cleverly decided to fall freely out of the arena. It was his plan not to open his chute until he was down to only 1000 ft above the ground. Unfortunately, he lost consciousness en route. As luck would have it, he crashed at the edge of a steep ravine covered with 3 ft of snow. Hitting at about 120 mi/h, he plowed along its slope until he came to rest at the bottom. Chisov awoke 20 min later, bruised and sore, but miraclously he had suffered only a concussion of the spine and a fractured pelvis. Three and one-half months later he was back at work as a flight instructor." Hecht, Eugene. Physics: Calculus. 2nd ed. United States: Brooks/Cole, 2000. p 85
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euthanasia
Aug 25, 2005, 11:47 PM
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That has to be a freakin crazy feeling to have fallen 33000ft and survived. Go to school and people ask you what you did over summer break. Umm, I fell 33000ft out of a plane without a parachute :roll: no biggy
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majid_sabet
Aug 25, 2005, 11:50 PM
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I saw few photos of few climbers falling very long distance to the ground , I am sure you guys do not want to know how things looked. Professor, are you done with this subject ?
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moose_droppings
Aug 26, 2005, 12:02 AM
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I survived a 45 ft fall. Spent 3 days in intensive care for broken shoulder blade, bruised lung, head conconsion, 2 broken ribs, and almost tore my thumb off(metal pins holding together now). 1974 or 75. BTW its a hoot to go thru the metal detecters, sometimes i tell em, if their jerks i wait till they come over with a wand.
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acrofobic
Aug 26, 2005, 12:58 AM
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Yosemite 73. I'm on helitack. Walk in ledge at base of el cap. Small fir tree (4 feet tall) everyone uses to hold onto while they swing past a narrow spot. Climber finished climb, walking out on ledge, no helmet. small tree pulls out. climber falls 8 feet hits head on lower ledge. NO HELMET. Dead. I was on the carry out.
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ajkclay
Aug 26, 2005, 1:03 AM
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Hi Carl,
bear with them, it's like trying to communicate with a gaggle of geese sometimes. It will take a while before some understand what you're after. :roll:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you want information about falls that climbers taken that we as climbers know of, and information about whether the person lived or died?
Also, I get the impression that you want data from all heights, and not just the highest we have heard about, with a greater interest in mortality rates up to about 25%?
Okay, here's mine. All bona fide by trusted individuals, or witnessed by me.
Falls from 2m:
total: in excess of 100, deaths 0
Falls from 3m:
total: 5, deaths 0
Falls from 4m:
total: 1, deaths 0
Falls from 15m:
total: 1, deaths 0 (badly injured though)
Falls from 20m:
total: 1, deaths 0 (badly injured)
^^^These are ones I know for sure.
Dodgy data:
There have been 2 falls resulting in death from the top of a cllimb called Muesli (Adelaide South Australia) in the last couple of years that I am aware of; the height is 18m, but both of those individuals were not climbers, just people out for a walk, so the absence of mitigating factors provided by gear may skew that data a bit, making it irrelevant.
Also, there have been a couple of deaths on D-minor at Arapiles, I am not sure of the details, or even if they fell all the way to the ground. They would most likely have fallen from near the top, which is 35m up, the crux is 3m below this, so falls from about 32m; there's a ledge 3m below this point, so it could also be that they fell 3m. Details are sketchy, sorry.
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alter_nate
Aug 26, 2005, 1:52 AM
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Professor,
You may already have this data, but for what it's worth, see this post from another forum:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=49651#msg49651http://
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squish
Aug 26, 2005, 2:29 AM
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height:................10'...20'...30'...40'...50'...60'...70'...80'...90'..100'..110'
% probability of:
limb fracture:......41 ...63 ...70 ...76 ...80 ...82 ...85 ...88 ...90 ..93 ...94
spine fracture:......5 ...10 ...13 ...16 ...20 ...23 ...27 ...29 ...31 ..33 ...35
death:..................2 ....7 ...12 ...21 ...35 ...49 ...62 ...74 ...83 ...92 ...95
Wow, that's amazing. I'm really surprised that the figure for 110 foot falls isn't closer to 100%. I mean, 95% means that 1 out of 20 people survive... I would have expected far fewer!
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toddlearn
Aug 26, 2005, 2:29 AM
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The stat I think that I was told in paramedic school (mind you over 15 years ago) is that falls over 30 feet have an 80 percent mortality rate.
Todd
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kevinkennedy05
Aug 26, 2005, 2:45 AM
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Its fun until you hit the ground that's my philosophy
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thegreytradster
Aug 26, 2005, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: * William Rankin: In 1959, Lt. Col. William Rankin was flying at 47,000 feet when he had to eject from his F8U jet over Norfolk, Virginia due to an engine failure. He parachuted into the middle of a severe thunderstorm that carried him over 65 miles to Rich Square, North Carolina. The trip took over 40 minutes.
I remember reading his account of the incident when I was a kid. Still chilling! he was repeatedly sucked up by the thunderstorm to 5 digit altitudes and battered by hail untill his parachute was shreded and his face battered so badly that when he stagered on to a road the first several cars refused to stop.
The industrial accident literature would indicate that an unexpected fall from a 12 ft (4M) ladder is about 50% fatal.
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blitzkrieg_climber13
Aug 26, 2005, 7:05 AM
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some guy in jtree fell like 40 feet and then another 20 feet and survived. not without major injuries but survived none the less
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majid_sabet
Aug 26, 2005, 8:11 AM
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This is new news from Aus, dead from 20 feet.
Tree surgeon dies after 20ft plunge in Australia
ROBERT FAIRBURN
A SCOTS tree surgeon has fallen 20ft to his death while working in Australia.
Hamish Crombie-Smith, 32, a qualified arborist, suffered severe head injuries when the diseased tree he was working on collapsed.
He had just helped set up a company in Sydney to teach tree surgeons safer climbing techniques when the tragedy happened on Tuesday.
The news has stunned his home town of Lauder, Berwickshire, where his father, John Crombie-Smith, is a general practitioner.
Yesterday, Dr Crombie-Smith said: "We got a telephone at 7:15am on Tuesday to say there had been an accident and it was bad and we had better think about getting on a plane.
"He had suffered facial and skull injuries, and the hospital had put in a valve in an attempt to stop the bleeding. But within a couple of hours, we got another call back to say Hamish had died.
"It is very hard to accept, because Hamish was so safety-conscious and had been so concerned about the lack of safety regulations that he had just helped to set up a new company which was involved in teaching safer climbing.
"There will be an official inquiry and it may be several months before we find out exactly what has happened, but it is just a tragic accident.
"It does raise the question of safety in tree surgery because, if this can happen to a qualified person and a professional like Hamish, then how much more danger is there for a happy amateur?"
While the family have not yet been told the exact cause of the accident, it is believed that the rotten tree he was working on collapsed and not even his safety harness could prevent him plunging to the ground.
Mr Crombie-Smith's mother, Jane, said: "This has been a nightmare ... I cannot believe I have lost a precious son.
"Hamish was obsessed with trees ever since climbing them as a boy. He could tell you everything about them and was an enthusiastic arboriculturist. He was a party animal. He played hard but worked hard also, and would leave nothing to chance when it came to safety."
Mr Crombie-Smith attended Earlston High School and Oatridge Agricultural College in West Lothian. He went on to study arboriculture and worked for a Linlithgow firm for more than a decade before heading to Australia 18 months ago with a girlfriend.
After working as a tree surgeon for a local authority and a private company, he set up the new company with friends. He also competed in Australia's tree-climbing championships in Parramatta, after having mastered climbing smooth-barked eucalyptus trees.
He had been due to come back to Scotland next year for his brother's wedding, at which he was to be best man.
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carlvphillips
Aug 26, 2005, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you want information about falls that climbers taken that we as climbers know of, and information about whether the person lived or died?
Yes, that is it. Thanks. A list of like yours, but that included thousands more falls and some deaths, would be exactly what I needed (though I am glad your had the fortune to have a list that is all non-fatal). I am not really interested in upper extremes; I realize that a fall from whatever height is survivable (if you, say, land on a steep snow slope that gradually flattens out).
I was surprised to see the suicide statistics, that found 2% mortality from 10 feet. I have to assume that suicides from that height are making an effort to land on their unprotected head, so this might not be representative of the "average" free fall.
To summarize what I have found in the health and occupational literature, the LD50 (the "dose" (distance) that kills 50% of those who experience it) seems to be about 50 feet (from a 5th or 6th story window). The arborist industry -- among the greatest experts I would suspect -- seems to put it at about 40 feet, though the collected data suggests this is only about 25% fatal. Very few deaths seem to occur for falls less than about 30 feet (the longest one I ever took, back when I was younger), and there is very little survival at 70 feet (notwithstanding the exceptional stories in this thread).
In other words, the dose-response curve goes from almost no mortality to almost certain mortality over the course of 40 feet. I suspect that would conform to climber intuition, but I am open to comment on that.
I remain curious if anyone has a guess about where 1% or 0.1% is for rock climbing falls (i.e., not elderly people who have a 1% chance of dying from just falling from standing). There must be a few cases, counterpoint to the high falls that were survived, of very low falls that were fatal.
Finally, just to let you know my motives, I am afraid that my work is not actually offering any direct benefit to those at risk of falling (unless the above summary is useful to you). Rather, falls from heights are sometimes used as analogs or metaphors for health risks in popular communication (e.g., if you are going to start smoking, you might as well jump off a 10 story building, because it is just as likely to kill you) (that example is obviously inaccurate, btw). I am trying to point out what heights would actually be reasonably accurate analogs if someone wants to do that. (My guess is that if forced to try to assess the differences in risk like 32 feet vs 42 feet, most will just give up these metaphors, which would probably be best imo.)
Thanks again for your help.
--Carl
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cintune
Aug 26, 2005, 10:26 PM
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I once foolishly grabbed a tree branch while downclimbing about 50 feet up. The branch broke and I did backward somersaults before landing on a 45 degree scree covered slope, kept rolling about 20 feet over a ledge and dropped another 10 or 20 before landing in a sitting position in a cleft between two boulders. Got a branch stuck in my leg and a sore neck, but after a few weeks was none the worse for wear.
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stevep
Aug 26, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Absent data, but in having read accounts of many accidents, I would think that the variability in mortality in falls under 70 ft is due greatly to how someone lands. Not wearing a shock absorbing helmet and falling on one's head probably has a high mortality rate at even relatively low heights such as 10 ft. On the other hand, fractures and spinal injuries are likely from landing upright, death is less likely until you reach high velocities assoicated with higher heights.
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yanos
Aug 27, 2005, 12:46 PM
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i was search around for story's on Hamish and found this site.
i worked with Hamish for 3 years and knew him as a friend before. he was a great guy, and looked out for all who he knew. if it wasn't for him i wouldn't be where i am today, or have the experience i now have!
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j_ung
Aug 27, 2005, 3:27 PM
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I have second hand experience at four major ground falls. I was first responder to an accident involving ground fall from minimum 160'. The guy sustained only minor injuries, his worst being a broken ankle. Speculation is that he hit several ledges on the way down. Several years ago a friend fell approximately 120', free to the ground. He broke his pelvis, a femur and had several minor injuries. Speculation is that a large Rhodo clump may have cushioned his landing. I know someone who rapped 40' of the end of his rope and fractured a couple vertebrae. I was first responder for an injured hiker who was scrambling and, according to eyewitnesses, fell approximately 6'. That's six feet. He died in the hospital hours after the accident from injuries sustained in the fall.
Perhaps I'm not the best source of anecdotal evidence for your study, since in my experience, the farther you fall the less likely you are to sustain fatal injuries. :wink:
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glyrocks
Aug 27, 2005, 4:45 PM
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I fell about 30 feet or so onto the ground, landed upright and on my feet. I didn't die. Fucked up my heels, but didn't die.
Fell about 25 feet onto a ledge landing on my head once, didn't die that time either.
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renohandjams
Aug 30, 2005, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I remember reading about a story of a parachute jumper falling to ground from several thousand feet without his chute opening and survived, but most cases I read related to climbing had major injuries and death, go to supertopo.com and post and see what you get, but either way keep us informed about your research. You can't be serious :shock: , how the hell does a person survive a fall at terminal velocity? Did he hit water or dirt? |
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tonydevo
Aug 30, 2005, 6:24 PM
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A falling climber landed 5m from me from a height of 15m after he failed to load his figure eight properly. He survived but with serious injury. Head first, no helmet, talus/packed dirt landing. Total free fall.
The sound never gets out of your head.
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benpullin
Aug 30, 2005, 7:11 PM
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No one has ever died falling. People die landing.
May seem like an oversimplification, but this fact makes this study a bit meaningless.
For example, in five years of climbing, I have fallen thousands of times, taken up to around 40 footers, and have never sustained worse an injury than rope burns and abrasions. The vast majority of these falls were sport climbing and thus were relatively safe.
I have many friends that have climbed 20-30 years, and have probably taken tens of thousands of falls each, all at varying lengths. While some have been injured, none have been killed.
So in my group of regular climbing partners alone, you have easily hundreds of thousands of falls recorded, some of them up to one hundred feet (documented/witnessed), none of which were fatal.
Trying to corrolate mortality with fall length is impossible because the two have nothing to do with each other.
You can fall 60 feet in the Madness Cave and walk away with nothing but a good story, or you can fall five feet into an alligator pit and be torn to shreds.
But, this is just my non-expert opinion...
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graniteboy
Sep 6, 2005, 9:49 PM
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I took an 80 foot groundfall while doing a mixed ice climb in 1998...but I bounced twice on the way down, so the first segment of the fall was really only about 40 feet, and the second two were about 20 ft each, while rolling.
I think that soft snow helped a bit, and skiing for 30+ years really helped me to know how to roll with the punches in this case.
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catbird_seat
Sep 7, 2005, 8:30 PM
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Why not go out and buy up as many old issues of Climbing Accidents in North American Climbing as you can and comb through them? Or go to the library. You'll not get any meaningful stats from this place- just some interesting anecdotes. The accounts usually give the distance fallen, whether or not the climber was wearing a helmet, and whether the victim survived. Of course many of the falls are "slips on snow", which I presume you are not interested in.
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anson
Sep 7, 2005, 10:13 PM
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I took a 12-15 footer, landed on a granite ledge, and broke an ankle. The hospital staff told me that 20' ground falls are 50% fatal. I didn't believe them then, and my mind hasn't changed. Perhaps what they mean to say is that 50% of people who interact with ambulances or hospitals due to a 20' fall die, and that I might believe, inasmuch as anyone who can afford not to interact with ambulances or hospitals generally elects not to.
I suspect that statistics gathered from the climbing population will have a far lower fatality rate on falls at any distance than other populations because many of us have experience falling, and 'fall well'. (That said, if I'm proven wrong, I won't lose sleep over it.) Suicides, on the other hand, probably intentionally 'fall poorly'--I would expect their mortality rates to be higher at every fall distance than other populations. So if you combine the two classes of cases, your results will be completely dependent on your sample sizes.
I see no way past the problem that mortality rates are dependent on a range of factors, and I personally believe that distance fallen is by no means the dominant factor. If I was pressed to pick, knowing as little about the subject as I do, I would go for the geometry of the impact(s) as the dominant factor, and in the cases where severe trauma results, I would pick the time required for professional medical assistance to arrive as the second most dominant factor in mortality. But that's just a seat-of-the-pants guess based on twenty minutes' thinking.
I also believe that many, if not most survived falls go unreported, especially at the lower end of the distance spectrum. It is not unreasonable to speculate that hundreds of 10' falls go unreported each month in the USA. If nobody was hurt, why would they be? At least in my neighborhood growing up, kids fell out of trees regularly, myself included, and were rarely hurt worse than a scraped knee.
I hate to say it--because it sounds like you're trying to marshal facts to dispel myths, and that's a good thing--but I suspect that whatever result you come up with will most likely be that third of the unholy triumvirate: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-aB
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wetrocks
Sep 7, 2005, 10:40 PM
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I was after similar info when I started this thread:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=670048#670048
It may have some good content for you.
Cheers
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okie_redneck
Sep 7, 2005, 11:53 PM
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I intentionally jumped at least 57' (I don't know if it was low or high tide) into the ocean off a bridge in Ft Myers, FL. It was painful, but the worst part was having to swim 3/4 mile in my clothes.
Three of my friends jumped before me, so in four of four cases of an approx. 60' fall with a water landing, we were just red and bruised.
I took a 25' fall in May resulting in a broken toe.
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dangler1
Sep 8, 2005, 12:35 AM
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I was told once in a WEMT class that LD50 for a fall was 30 feet.
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saltamonte
Sep 8, 2005, 12:50 AM
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I heard once that you could great increase your chances of survival in a terminal velocity fall. by landing as follows:
feet first with your hands raised above your head with your whole body arched left, sort of like this parenthasis )
the idea is that if you are perfectly verticle your chest cavity will just mix with your legs and you die.
but if positioned in that slight arch your fall will be somewhat absorbed by the progressive and abundant breaks beggining with your ankles, and moving up your legs and hips by the time your upper chest and head reach the ground a significant amount of your momentum will have been transferred to the side you will of course still break ribs and your arm will then cushion the blow to your head. the remaining momentum will then likely be a sideways bounce where you hope for a bit of luck as you land very broken but possibly alive.
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braaaaaaaadley
Sep 8, 2005, 12:55 AM
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I think the masses are missing a key point. When a climber falls, it is not broken bones, cuts, etc. that kills people. Its weather or not the person that falls hits their head on the way down or not. Therefore, I would have to say that all these accounts are somewhat useless because those wearing a helmet have a substantially greater chance of survival period. Other factors that would impact the outcome of a fall would be obviously height, how the person fell i.e. head first, feet first, cartweeling etc., what the person hit when they hit the ground, how far from help the said person is, and weather or not that person hit anything on the way down ledges etc. What I am trying to get at here is that height alone is not a good way to judge the mortality rate of falls. It's obvious that a person who falls 10' face first into a rock has less of a chance of survival than does a person wearing a helmet who falls 40' feet first on to a soft forest floor.
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rockdiablo
Sep 13, 2005, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: Last Dec 18th, James Lucas decked 150ft on Intersection Rock in Joshua Tree.
He fell about 70 feet hit a ledge rolled off of it and then fell an additional 30 to the ground. Two falls for the price of one.
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jgorm
Sep 30, 2005, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: Isn't teriminal velocity at sea level only 150 MPH+? Does anyone know? I know it is much higher the higher you go, but what about down here?
Just about. Its about 120 mph on your belly and over 200 in a streamlined head or feet first dive. My last dive averaged 116 mph from 13,500 to 3,500'
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