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toddlearn
Aug 26, 2005, 2:29 AM
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The stat I think that I was told in paramedic school (mind you over 15 years ago) is that falls over 30 feet have an 80 percent mortality rate.
Todd
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kevinkennedy05
Aug 26, 2005, 2:45 AM
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Its fun until you hit the ground that's my philosophy
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thegreytradster
Aug 26, 2005, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: * William Rankin: In 1959, Lt. Col. William Rankin was flying at 47,000 feet when he had to eject from his F8U jet over Norfolk, Virginia due to an engine failure. He parachuted into the middle of a severe thunderstorm that carried him over 65 miles to Rich Square, North Carolina. The trip took over 40 minutes.
I remember reading his account of the incident when I was a kid. Still chilling! he was repeatedly sucked up by the thunderstorm to 5 digit altitudes and battered by hail untill his parachute was shreded and his face battered so badly that when he stagered on to a road the first several cars refused to stop.
The industrial accident literature would indicate that an unexpected fall from a 12 ft (4M) ladder is about 50% fatal.
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blitzkrieg_climber13
Aug 26, 2005, 7:05 AM
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some guy in jtree fell like 40 feet and then another 20 feet and survived. not without major injuries but survived none the less
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majid_sabet
Aug 26, 2005, 8:11 AM
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This is new news from Aus, dead from 20 feet.
Tree surgeon dies after 20ft plunge in Australia
ROBERT FAIRBURN
A SCOTS tree surgeon has fallen 20ft to his death while working in Australia.
Hamish Crombie-Smith, 32, a qualified arborist, suffered severe head injuries when the diseased tree he was working on collapsed.
He had just helped set up a company in Sydney to teach tree surgeons safer climbing techniques when the tragedy happened on Tuesday.
The news has stunned his home town of Lauder, Berwickshire, where his father, John Crombie-Smith, is a general practitioner.
Yesterday, Dr Crombie-Smith said: "We got a telephone at 7:15am on Tuesday to say there had been an accident and it was bad and we had better think about getting on a plane.
"He had suffered facial and skull injuries, and the hospital had put in a valve in an attempt to stop the bleeding. But within a couple of hours, we got another call back to say Hamish had died.
"It is very hard to accept, because Hamish was so safety-conscious and had been so concerned about the lack of safety regulations that he had just helped to set up a new company which was involved in teaching safer climbing.
"There will be an official inquiry and it may be several months before we find out exactly what has happened, but it is just a tragic accident.
"It does raise the question of safety in tree surgery because, if this can happen to a qualified person and a professional like Hamish, then how much more danger is there for a happy amateur?"
While the family have not yet been told the exact cause of the accident, it is believed that the rotten tree he was working on collapsed and not even his safety harness could prevent him plunging to the ground.
Mr Crombie-Smith's mother, Jane, said: "This has been a nightmare ... I cannot believe I have lost a precious son.
"Hamish was obsessed with trees ever since climbing them as a boy. He could tell you everything about them and was an enthusiastic arboriculturist. He was a party animal. He played hard but worked hard also, and would leave nothing to chance when it came to safety."
Mr Crombie-Smith attended Earlston High School and Oatridge Agricultural College in West Lothian. He went on to study arboriculture and worked for a Linlithgow firm for more than a decade before heading to Australia 18 months ago with a girlfriend.
After working as a tree surgeon for a local authority and a private company, he set up the new company with friends. He also competed in Australia's tree-climbing championships in Parramatta, after having mastered climbing smooth-barked eucalyptus trees.
He had been due to come back to Scotland next year for his brother's wedding, at which he was to be best man.
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carlvphillips
Aug 26, 2005, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you want information about falls that climbers taken that we as climbers know of, and information about whether the person lived or died?
Yes, that is it. Thanks. A list of like yours, but that included thousands more falls and some deaths, would be exactly what I needed (though I am glad your had the fortune to have a list that is all non-fatal). I am not really interested in upper extremes; I realize that a fall from whatever height is survivable (if you, say, land on a steep snow slope that gradually flattens out).
I was surprised to see the suicide statistics, that found 2% mortality from 10 feet. I have to assume that suicides from that height are making an effort to land on their unprotected head, so this might not be representative of the "average" free fall.
To summarize what I have found in the health and occupational literature, the LD50 (the "dose" (distance) that kills 50% of those who experience it) seems to be about 50 feet (from a 5th or 6th story window). The arborist industry -- among the greatest experts I would suspect -- seems to put it at about 40 feet, though the collected data suggests this is only about 25% fatal. Very few deaths seem to occur for falls less than about 30 feet (the longest one I ever took, back when I was younger), and there is very little survival at 70 feet (notwithstanding the exceptional stories in this thread).
In other words, the dose-response curve goes from almost no mortality to almost certain mortality over the course of 40 feet. I suspect that would conform to climber intuition, but I am open to comment on that.
I remain curious if anyone has a guess about where 1% or 0.1% is for rock climbing falls (i.e., not elderly people who have a 1% chance of dying from just falling from standing). There must be a few cases, counterpoint to the high falls that were survived, of very low falls that were fatal.
Finally, just to let you know my motives, I am afraid that my work is not actually offering any direct benefit to those at risk of falling (unless the above summary is useful to you). Rather, falls from heights are sometimes used as analogs or metaphors for health risks in popular communication (e.g., if you are going to start smoking, you might as well jump off a 10 story building, because it is just as likely to kill you) (that example is obviously inaccurate, btw). I am trying to point out what heights would actually be reasonably accurate analogs if someone wants to do that. (My guess is that if forced to try to assess the differences in risk like 32 feet vs 42 feet, most will just give up these metaphors, which would probably be best imo.)
Thanks again for your help.
--Carl
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cintune
Aug 26, 2005, 10:26 PM
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I once foolishly grabbed a tree branch while downclimbing about 50 feet up. The branch broke and I did backward somersaults before landing on a 45 degree scree covered slope, kept rolling about 20 feet over a ledge and dropped another 10 or 20 before landing in a sitting position in a cleft between two boulders. Got a branch stuck in my leg and a sore neck, but after a few weeks was none the worse for wear.
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stevep
Aug 26, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Absent data, but in having read accounts of many accidents, I would think that the variability in mortality in falls under 70 ft is due greatly to how someone lands. Not wearing a shock absorbing helmet and falling on one's head probably has a high mortality rate at even relatively low heights such as 10 ft. On the other hand, fractures and spinal injuries are likely from landing upright, death is less likely until you reach high velocities assoicated with higher heights.
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yanos
Aug 27, 2005, 12:46 PM
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i was search around for story's on Hamish and found this site.
i worked with Hamish for 3 years and knew him as a friend before. he was a great guy, and looked out for all who he knew. if it wasn't for him i wouldn't be where i am today, or have the experience i now have!
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j_ung
Aug 27, 2005, 3:27 PM
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I have second hand experience at four major ground falls. I was first responder to an accident involving ground fall from minimum 160'. The guy sustained only minor injuries, his worst being a broken ankle. Speculation is that he hit several ledges on the way down. Several years ago a friend fell approximately 120', free to the ground. He broke his pelvis, a femur and had several minor injuries. Speculation is that a large Rhodo clump may have cushioned his landing. I know someone who rapped 40' of the end of his rope and fractured a couple vertebrae. I was first responder for an injured hiker who was scrambling and, according to eyewitnesses, fell approximately 6'. That's six feet. He died in the hospital hours after the accident from injuries sustained in the fall.
Perhaps I'm not the best source of anecdotal evidence for your study, since in my experience, the farther you fall the less likely you are to sustain fatal injuries. :wink:
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glyrocks
Aug 27, 2005, 4:45 PM
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I fell about 30 feet or so onto the ground, landed upright and on my feet. I didn't die. Fucked up my heels, but didn't die.
Fell about 25 feet onto a ledge landing on my head once, didn't die that time either.
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renohandjams
Aug 30, 2005, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I remember reading about a story of a parachute jumper falling to ground from several thousand feet without his chute opening and survived, but most cases I read related to climbing had major injuries and death, go to supertopo.com and post and see what you get, but either way keep us informed about your research. You can't be serious :shock: , how the hell does a person survive a fall at terminal velocity? Did he hit water or dirt? |
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tonydevo
Aug 30, 2005, 6:24 PM
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A falling climber landed 5m from me from a height of 15m after he failed to load his figure eight properly. He survived but with serious injury. Head first, no helmet, talus/packed dirt landing. Total free fall.
The sound never gets out of your head.
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benpullin
Aug 30, 2005, 7:11 PM
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No one has ever died falling. People die landing.
May seem like an oversimplification, but this fact makes this study a bit meaningless.
For example, in five years of climbing, I have fallen thousands of times, taken up to around 40 footers, and have never sustained worse an injury than rope burns and abrasions. The vast majority of these falls were sport climbing and thus were relatively safe.
I have many friends that have climbed 20-30 years, and have probably taken tens of thousands of falls each, all at varying lengths. While some have been injured, none have been killed.
So in my group of regular climbing partners alone, you have easily hundreds of thousands of falls recorded, some of them up to one hundred feet (documented/witnessed), none of which were fatal.
Trying to corrolate mortality with fall length is impossible because the two have nothing to do with each other.
You can fall 60 feet in the Madness Cave and walk away with nothing but a good story, or you can fall five feet into an alligator pit and be torn to shreds.
But, this is just my non-expert opinion...
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graniteboy
Sep 6, 2005, 9:49 PM
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I took an 80 foot groundfall while doing a mixed ice climb in 1998...but I bounced twice on the way down, so the first segment of the fall was really only about 40 feet, and the second two were about 20 ft each, while rolling.
I think that soft snow helped a bit, and skiing for 30+ years really helped me to know how to roll with the punches in this case.
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catbird_seat
Sep 7, 2005, 8:30 PM
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Why not go out and buy up as many old issues of Climbing Accidents in North American Climbing as you can and comb through them? Or go to the library. You'll not get any meaningful stats from this place- just some interesting anecdotes. The accounts usually give the distance fallen, whether or not the climber was wearing a helmet, and whether the victim survived. Of course many of the falls are "slips on snow", which I presume you are not interested in.
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anson
Sep 7, 2005, 10:13 PM
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I took a 12-15 footer, landed on a granite ledge, and broke an ankle. The hospital staff told me that 20' ground falls are 50% fatal. I didn't believe them then, and my mind hasn't changed. Perhaps what they mean to say is that 50% of people who interact with ambulances or hospitals due to a 20' fall die, and that I might believe, inasmuch as anyone who can afford not to interact with ambulances or hospitals generally elects not to.
I suspect that statistics gathered from the climbing population will have a far lower fatality rate on falls at any distance than other populations because many of us have experience falling, and 'fall well'. (That said, if I'm proven wrong, I won't lose sleep over it.) Suicides, on the other hand, probably intentionally 'fall poorly'--I would expect their mortality rates to be higher at every fall distance than other populations. So if you combine the two classes of cases, your results will be completely dependent on your sample sizes.
I see no way past the problem that mortality rates are dependent on a range of factors, and I personally believe that distance fallen is by no means the dominant factor. If I was pressed to pick, knowing as little about the subject as I do, I would go for the geometry of the impact(s) as the dominant factor, and in the cases where severe trauma results, I would pick the time required for professional medical assistance to arrive as the second most dominant factor in mortality. But that's just a seat-of-the-pants guess based on twenty minutes' thinking.
I also believe that many, if not most survived falls go unreported, especially at the lower end of the distance spectrum. It is not unreasonable to speculate that hundreds of 10' falls go unreported each month in the USA. If nobody was hurt, why would they be? At least in my neighborhood growing up, kids fell out of trees regularly, myself included, and were rarely hurt worse than a scraped knee.
I hate to say it--because it sounds like you're trying to marshal facts to dispel myths, and that's a good thing--but I suspect that whatever result you come up with will most likely be that third of the unholy triumvirate: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
-aB
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wetrocks
Sep 7, 2005, 10:40 PM
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I was after similar info when I started this thread:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=670048#670048
It may have some good content for you.
Cheers
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okie_redneck
Sep 7, 2005, 11:53 PM
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I intentionally jumped at least 57' (I don't know if it was low or high tide) into the ocean off a bridge in Ft Myers, FL. It was painful, but the worst part was having to swim 3/4 mile in my clothes.
Three of my friends jumped before me, so in four of four cases of an approx. 60' fall with a water landing, we were just red and bruised.
I took a 25' fall in May resulting in a broken toe.
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dangler1
Sep 8, 2005, 12:35 AM
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I was told once in a WEMT class that LD50 for a fall was 30 feet.
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saltamonte
Sep 8, 2005, 12:50 AM
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I heard once that you could great increase your chances of survival in a terminal velocity fall. by landing as follows:
feet first with your hands raised above your head with your whole body arched left, sort of like this parenthasis )
the idea is that if you are perfectly verticle your chest cavity will just mix with your legs and you die.
but if positioned in that slight arch your fall will be somewhat absorbed by the progressive and abundant breaks beggining with your ankles, and moving up your legs and hips by the time your upper chest and head reach the ground a significant amount of your momentum will have been transferred to the side you will of course still break ribs and your arm will then cushion the blow to your head. the remaining momentum will then likely be a sideways bounce where you hope for a bit of luck as you land very broken but possibly alive.
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braaaaaaaadley
Sep 8, 2005, 12:55 AM
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I think the masses are missing a key point. When a climber falls, it is not broken bones, cuts, etc. that kills people. Its weather or not the person that falls hits their head on the way down or not. Therefore, I would have to say that all these accounts are somewhat useless because those wearing a helmet have a substantially greater chance of survival period. Other factors that would impact the outcome of a fall would be obviously height, how the person fell i.e. head first, feet first, cartweeling etc., what the person hit when they hit the ground, how far from help the said person is, and weather or not that person hit anything on the way down ledges etc. What I am trying to get at here is that height alone is not a good way to judge the mortality rate of falls. It's obvious that a person who falls 10' face first into a rock has less of a chance of survival than does a person wearing a helmet who falls 40' feet first on to a soft forest floor.
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rockdiablo
Sep 13, 2005, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: Last Dec 18th, James Lucas decked 150ft on Intersection Rock in Joshua Tree.
He fell about 70 feet hit a ledge rolled off of it and then fell an additional 30 to the ground. Two falls for the price of one.
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