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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 3:15 PM
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Got this from a partner who was climbing at Seneca over the weekend. It's clear that there were some pretty big forces involved, so it's not exactly clear that the Alien was defective. But given the recent history, I thought this was worth sharing. Hopefully more details will emerge soon.
In reply to: There had been a bad accident on the Southern Pillar- guy ripped out all gear but a yellow metolius. Broke both ankles on a ledge. Will Dameron, a PA hard-man and soon-to-be Seneca guide soloed up to this guy and built an anchor. His friend and guide “JJ” also lead up to him and they rescued the guy. He blew a green alien “APART”. Literally like an umbrella. About 80 feet total. |
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jabtocrag
Apr 17, 2006, 3:25 PM
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Hopefully someone will post some specifics on this.
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duckwalk
Apr 17, 2006, 3:38 PM
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"Literally like an umbrella" leaves room for the possiblility that it was placed too open, and as they don't have cam stops, this can happen. I'm sorry for the accident, and as stated hopefully the specifics will be posted. Also, good job on the rescue effort.
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 3:40 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: "Literally like an umbrella" leaves room for the possiblility that it was placed too open, and as they don't have cam stops, this can happen. I'm sorry for the accident, and as stated hopefully the specifics will be posted. Also, good job on the rescue effort.
i agree.. that was my first thought as well.
good luck on the recovery for the climber.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 3:54 PM
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Hope the climber is ok.
Ripped 'all' gear but a metolius? How much gear are we talking?
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j_ung
Apr 17, 2006, 3:55 PM
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I haven't been anywhere near the Southern Pillar in a looooonnnnng time, but if memory serves (and it might not!) rock quality may have played a role in the overall length of the fall.
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nowinowski
Apr 17, 2006, 3:56 PM
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what route?
well placed and non defective these things are very strong. I have taken a 25 foot near factor 2 and just last weekend a 25 footer (lower impact). What other gear was ripped ? How experienced was the leader (at seneca?)
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 4:04 PM
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Gephart
Apparently most of his gear was poorly placed. Potential user error, sad to say. He actually popped the alien out at his waist so I agree it must have been totally tipped out.
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rhythm164
Apr 17, 2006, 4:06 PM
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The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation.
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rhythm164
Apr 17, 2006, 4:07 PM
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the umbrealla comment almost makes it sound like the Alien was placed in a passive orientation.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 4:49 PM
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i think the title is unfair towards CCH.. it's not their fault the guy placed a ton of shit gear that pulled, especially when you dont mention any of the other things that pulled and only that the metolius cam held.
it's sad that people are going to start thinking that just because their gear doesnt hold it's the fault of the company and won't take responsibility themselves for not placing it correctly
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clayman
Apr 17, 2006, 4:58 PM
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^^^^what he said
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kachoong
Apr 17, 2006, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: i think the title is unfair towards CCH.. it's not their fault the guy placed a ton of s--- gear that pulled, especially when you dont mention any of the other things that pulled and only that the metolius cam held. it's sad that people are going to start thinking that just because their gear doesnt hold it's the fault of the company and won't take responsibility themselves for not placing it correctly
I hope the guy makes a speedy and full recovery.
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 5:00 PM
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Agreed about the title/Alien implication. It is a good cam and will fit where most others will not.
One note:
Yes, it had the dimple in the stem. Also, although the guy mentioned he had been climbing for 5 years, I recognized that his gear was BRAND new, consisted of ovals, some Omega D-s and BRAND new BW slings, as well as his aliens. Okay, where have we seen all of that type gear? REI.
One sign of his experience level = he was utilizing locking biners to rack his cams.
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up_for_a_good_time
Apr 17, 2006, 5:13 PM
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Let's play nice. Just because he and I on occassion use locking biners to rack up doesn't mean that we're always beginners. Whether it was indeed a bunch of shitty placements that ripped or it was a single small stopper and a big runout, I'm sure a lesson was learned. I trust we are all concerned about the safety and welfare of the fallen climber more so than we are about ragging on his experience....ahem.
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styndall
Apr 17, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation.
There is no passive orientation for Aliens. They don't have stops.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation. There is no passive orientation for Aliens. They don't have stops.
...which would explain the popped umbrella situation...
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: One note: Yes, it had the dimple in the stem.
:shock: :shock: Climbing on Recalled gear is NOT a smart move. If this failed like the one a few months ago then it is still User error and not the fault of CCH.. they recalled them for a reason
climbing for 5 years and leading trad is a whole different story.
though new gear doesnt always denote nOOb.. take Kate's rack.. had to be replaced.. all shiny.. still has miles under her belt even if the gear doesn't
and yes the lesson was hopefully learned by him. the point of the discussion is to make sure OTHERS don't make the same mistake.
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bennydh
Apr 17, 2006, 5:38 PM
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It has no passive orientation.....but was placed that way anyway?
= why it looks like an Umbrella.
Doesn't sound like loads of experience for sure, but I still hope he recovers well and climbs again safer....maybe share this unfortunate accident story with others since it can easily be prevented. Maybe someone wants to post a link on this forum for this guy and others on a section or old gear post on why it, and other cams, cannot be placed passively.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 5:42 PM
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a cam doesnt have to be placed passively to be pulled out in an umbrella fashion.. just under cammed ie cam too small for the crack.
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healyje
Apr 17, 2006, 5:55 PM
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Hopefully he'll be alright. Sounds like while this may have been a dimpled cam the stem braze held well enough to survive the forces involved with pulling a too-wide placement. Might have been lucky in that respect if he had managed to place it decent. Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens.
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kachoong
Apr 17, 2006, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens.
Either way, word of mouth is a very useful tool in preventing accidents. Not everybody will be up to speed with the latest news on gear, even if the Alien recall is five months old.... heck, I didn't even know a lot of people climbed mixed routes without leashes until a year or two ago.... :wink: (not that I'd be better off knowing or not)
It is definately up to each and every one of us to be as informed and knowlegable about the gear we purchase and how to use it correctly and effectively (lets hope this guy didn't buy his alien from a store after the recall), however it shouldn't stop us climbing partners and the on-looking climbing community to ask questions and inform people nicely on their visible mistakes when we see them.
Who's to know if this accident could have been prevented, as I'm sure he'd still be on the same climb with the same rack minus the alien. Any gear, whether it is defective or not, is only as strong and effective as the final placement and orientation when fallen on....
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porcelainsunset
Apr 17, 2006, 6:55 PM
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I think we all did a much better job responding to this news than we did last time. However, I am personally tired of seeing people post up threads like this with very sensitive titles (this one very biased in my opinion) and then giving the readers very little information to try and understand what went wrong. Posting new forms about sensitive issues like this in an effort to inform the RC.com masses, without giving all the information available is not something that helps this site out. If you hear about an accident and want to talk about it on RC.com, either create a thread asking questions, or create a thread that lets us know what really happened, don't do neither.
There's my to cents.
However, good job on the rescue, and I hope that the injured climber has a speedy and complete recovery.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens. Great point! If any wisdom can be taken from this thread it should be this. It is VERY possible that someone can have no knowledge of a recall if they don't frequent climbing stores, read websites like this or read mags.
i climbed at shelf road this weekend, and a party next to us (who was from boulder/longmont) had their trad rack laying with their packs, and someone in our party mentioned gimpy aliens, and when we brought up the recall, they (the other party) thought we were joking.
we explained the details,a nd showed them where the dimple woulda been, etc. their cams were all pre-05, by at least 5 years, i believe, but it was a kind of wakeup call that not all climbers frequent teh interweb or climbing stores or mags. and these folks were from boulder, where i'd'a thought they woulda heard about it at least...
but yeah, when i see someone with them racked, i do try to bring it up. just a simple "you know about the alien recall?" seems to work.
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craftonclimber
Apr 17, 2006, 7:39 PM
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As irresponsible as it is to blame a company like CCH it is just as irresponsible to blame a company like REI that carries the same gear and has the same responsibility to the climbing community as any other climbing outfitter. No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear. The recall on the Alien Cams has been well known for some time now and I know for a fact that companies like REI and Excursion have removed them from their shelves since the recall.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear.
while this is true...
In reply to: The recall on the Alien Cams has been well known for some time now and I know for a fact that companies like REI and Excursion have removed them from their shelves since the recall.
i've heard of the recall thru:
this website.
a flyer posted at several local shops.
at least one print mag.
maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
aside from this, where is it well known? i think it's entirely possible for an active climber to not have visited any of the above in 3 or 4 months, the time since the recall was issued.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 7:59 PM
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I've spoken to a couple climbers (friends of mine) who hadn't heard about the alien recall.
If you've got a life, it'd be real easy to miss it. :P
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 7:59 PM
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not sure where anyone was blaming REI...
one guy was saying he could identify a new climber by a collection of gear sometimes found at REI.. this i think was a bit off the mark for 2 reasons a) that gear can be found anywhere b) REI might be the easiest/only place for them to get gear
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Apologies for the misunderstanding: I was not blaming REI at all, and really have zero problem with alien cams.
The observation was that the BD ovals (REI price point below 5 dollars) as well as the Omega D's (also Priced below 5 dollars) as well as the checkered BW nylon (red and green) full length slings screamed "Buy more than 6 and get 10% off". (I always see that when I enter REI.) Between that, the Omega lockers, which are also lower cost alternatives (and equally as strong) and the fact that everything was very very shiny and REI recently sent everyone their dividends in the mail- the whole scene screamed "recently bought gear."
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was more aimed at "newbie to trad learns tough lesson" rather than "retailers and manufacturers market substandard gear."
And, again, I think the title should be changed.
JC
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billcoe_
Apr 17, 2006, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: I've spoken to a couple climbers (friends of mine) who hadn't heard about the alien recall. :P
Me too, although it's hard to believe there are those who do not live on the internet like we do.
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112
Apr 17, 2006, 8:45 PM
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Actually REI sent me an email, once this recall came to light, stating that their records showed that I had purchased X alliens and that there had been a recall on dimpled Aliens. REI Invited me to return the gear for store credit (regardless of the presence of a dimple or not).
Now that IS customer service!
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climbingbetty22
Apr 17, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: No matter where you purchase your climbing equipment is up to you, the climber, to ensure the quality of your gear.
I think this a great point. While not much is known about the details of the situation, personal responsiblity is key. My biggest wish for this guy, aside from a quick and full recovery, is that he will not blame the gear manufacturers and mechanidizers, but see the mistakes he mave have made, whatever they may have been, and learn from them to become a better, more skillful climber.
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 9:15 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 9:26 PM
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Well, what about all the other gear that ripped? How come we don't get to hear about that stuff?
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majid_sabet
Apr 17, 2006, 9:32 PM
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"guy ripped out all gear"
And this was caused by one bad cam ?
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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: Well, what about all the other gear that ripped? How come we don't get to hear about that stuff?
Hopefully we will.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 9:48 PM
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Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter.. If it had been a BD cam you wouldn't have even bothered with this thread
He didn't break the cam.. the placement failed.. i'm not sure what damage inverting does but i bet with either nothing or new trigger wires the cam would be good to go again
look at the resulting cam (and pattern of the other failed gear).. umbrella'd out. if it was placed correctly or undercammed it would have resulted in a normal looking cam and there probably would have been broken/trenched rock
even IF the braze had failed it was a recalled cam! cch can't be responsible for people who are using cams that are known to be defective.
haha and one accident thread i agree with majid wohoo!
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charley
Apr 17, 2006, 9:55 PM
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I guess we will never know the specifics unless the guy posts here but: What I heard from Will and the ppl in the gendarme was that the climber went above his last piece(an alien) and then backed off. Came down and grabbed his gear, (hung on it, I guess) moved up and then just sat on the alien and it popped and was destroyed. He did not fall on gear but just sat on it. His next piece popped also and he hit a ledge. It is suspected that he may have over cammed or moved the piece when he grabbed it. This was also right after a twenty minute rain that got the rock wet.
Excellent job by two daring young climbers on the rescue. They had the man on the ground before rescue ppl got there.
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crimpstrength
Apr 17, 2006, 10:02 PM
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jakedatc
In reply to: Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter..
When I can vote, I'm coming back to this - bravo
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healyje
Apr 17, 2006, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: Came down and grabbed his gear, (hung on it, I guess) moved up and then just sat on the alien and it popped and was destroyed. He did not fall on gear but just sat on it.
This is getting to be my favorite "under acknowledged" issue in climbing...
Trad is not sport and using sport tactics on gear is not entirely without risk. Once you grab or hang on a piece you'll definitely want to scope it out good and possibly even remove and re-place it. Don't assume because it just held you once that it will twice. I'm seeing this scenario contribute to more and more accidents...
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shanz
Apr 17, 2006, 11:07 PM
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Here we go again about aliens, guess some of us have forgotten that regardless of the cam nothing is 100% safe... Put too much faith in a piece of gear and that piece of gear will hand you your ass...
You cant fall if you dont let go
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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: "guy ripped out all gear" And this was caused by one bad cam ?
I wouldn't think so, unless one bad cam WAS all the gear.
majid, do you reckon a helmet would have helped this chap?
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: Mitt you are an ambulance chaser of alien threads.. you have put in about $23.50 in your .02's on the matter.. If it had been a BD cam you wouldn't have even bothered with this thread He didn't break the cam.. the placement failed.. i'm not sure what damage inverting does but i bet with either nothing or new trigger wires the cam would be good to go again look at the resulting cam (and pattern of the other failed gear).. umbrella'd out. if it was placed correctly or undercammed it would have resulted in a normal looking cam and there probably would have been broken/trenched rock
I said that I believed that this accident was probably attributed to pilot error. I read all the accident threads so that I don't end up with the same fate, I would have certainly asked questions about the reported accident especially with so few details. I never implied that the alien failed just like I never implied that it did its job, I don't know. The only people that know are the ones that were there. Now that it has been said how the accident happened I think its safe to assume that it was pilot error and hopefully people will learn from his mistake (I know I did). I hang from my gear all the time. Sorry to set you off man.
Have a nice day :)
Mitt
(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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healyje
Apr 18, 2006, 12:44 AM
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In reply to: I hang from my gear all the time.
Again, not a practice without risks, particularly for beginning and intermediate folks. Gear moves under a variety of circumstances and in various ways when weighted, climbed past, leaned out on, etc. All have the potential to significantly alter a placement. My point was if you're going to do this, then check the piece everytime you unweight it and before climbing past it again.
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meesier42
Apr 18, 2006, 1:02 AM
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I have to ask something here, and it has been pointed out already but not as blantently as I think it should be.
1) What happened here is a terrible accident, no matter what caused it
2) Hopefully the guy will be ok
3) THANK YOU, to the guys who climbed up to and rescued this guy.
4) Stop speculating what happened, hopefully in time, details and pictures will come out as fact ( or at least the best experts opinion) and we can all learn from what happened.
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healyje
Apr 18, 2006, 10:37 AM
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Actually, we're trying to get to te bottom of this one and comment relative to the facts at hand as known so far. Sorry this is making you unconfortable, but given te way this thread started and the information we've been able to ascertain thus far (not much), the discussion has been quite appropriate.
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daithi
Apr 18, 2006, 12:17 PM
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In reply to: i've heard of the recall thru: this website. a flyer posted at several local shops. at least one print mag. maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
Keep at it. Eventually you'll get the redpoint! :wink:
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daithi
Apr 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: i've heard of the recall thru: this website. a flyer posted at several local shops. at least one print mag. maybe at an indoor gym, but i could be projecting that.
Keep at it. Eventually you'll get the redpoint. :wink:
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crankingclimber
Apr 20, 2006, 4:34 PM
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In regards to the very first post:
1) Hard man, or big softy? Probably big softy:)
2) I didn't solo up to him, I led part of Roy Gap, part of Climb n Punishment, part of Gehart Dufty, and a whole lot of licheny traverse. The guide who came up told me I had a first ascent, and I joked I was going to call it, 'Sam's Rescue.' We call, including the victim, got a laugh out of it - he was in good spirits by that time.
3) At least as of yet, I'm not about to be a Senece guide, although it's not out of the question.
4) The guide who came up is a good friend of mine, but it wasn't JJ. He didn't solo, he tied into the rope I put up.
5) We think the fall was between 50 and 60 feet, not 80.
And yes, he did completely umbrella a recalled alien - it was almost undoubtdedly user error though, not any problem with the alien. As he told me (and I'm not sure that I quite got what he was trying to tell me, or that he was perfectly clear himself) he placed the green alien, was holding it with one hand, reaching up with his other, gave up and sat down/took a tiny pop onto the alien, which then umbrellad. He fell, his next cam ripped, which is what introduced enough slack into the system for him to hit the ledge he broke both ankles on, he bounced off of that ledge and was caught by the rope on a good piece. He had 4 pieces in the rock after the two cams blew, plus the belay. His partner lowered him to a ledge, and I booked it up to him, a guide came up, he organized most of the lower - had him on my back, I kept his feet off the rock, the ambulance (3 actually) were already on the road beneath the Southern Pillar. We lowered right onto a stretcher, carried him down the scree, and they took him to the hospital (Winchester???).
The guide got the partner off of the route, but had to leave some gear, which friends of mine went and got the next day.
Them's the details - the victim told me he'd been climbing 5 years, but his rack looked brand new - it was a strange rack also - had those new link cams, and all of his gear was stored on lockers. So, the theory goes that he bought a rack, started climbing, got on the G-D, placed bad gear, sat on one which umbrellad, ripped another, hit the ledge, got lowered to another ledge, and then rescued. That's about all the details that there are. Hope this clears up any questions or concerns.
PA Hard Man... Will
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rick_marsh
Apr 20, 2006, 5:28 PM
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Will,
Nice job getting that injured climber down to the waiting ambulances.
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nedsurf
Apr 20, 2006, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Agreed about the title/Alien implication. It is a good cam and will fit where most others will not. One note: Yes, it had the dimple in the stem. Also, although the guy mentioned he had been climbing for 5 years, I recognized that his gear was BRAND new, consisted of ovals, some Omega D-s and BRAND new BW slings, as well as his aliens. Okay, where have we seen all of that type gear? REI. One sign of his experience level = he was utilizing locking biners to rack his cams.
Not gonna say which outdoor store I work for so as not to put myself into the PR rep. position but... I have had to serve customers who were bound and determined to spend their big DC paychecks on a full rack of crap. It is obvious that they don't know what they are doing and will not listen. I cannot refuse to sell and I don't give instruction on the floor, period. I do strongly urge them to buy FOTH and go across the street to the local climbing gym to get qualified instruction. Sometimes I show them the disclamer tag on every piece of gear sold repeating what I just told them to do. It is usually like talking to a brick wall...sigh.
Not making any claims about the person who fell, just commenting on the quoted post. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
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wjca
Apr 20, 2006, 5:40 PM
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Good job on the rescue Will, and thanks for the report.
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kachoong
Apr 20, 2006, 6:34 PM
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^^ ....what he said.... Great job, Will! :wink: ....thanks for clearing up the details.
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majid_sabet
Apr 20, 2006, 8:09 PM
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crankingclimber
Great job guys. You said he fall 50-60 feet and had total of 6 pc in the rock, two cams both failed.
Two questions
What was the distance between his top cam to the bottom cam and then from the ledge to belay, also how far and what was the distance between each pc if you can recall or at lease if there was not any ledge, how far from the last cam to the next pc.
Thanks
Majid
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papounet
Apr 20, 2006, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Good job on the rescue Will, and thanks for the report.
secunded
In reply to: crankingclimber Great job guys. You said he fall 50-60 feet and had total of 6 pc in the rock, two cams both failed. Two questions What was the distance between his top cam to the bottom cam and then from the ledge to belay, also how far and what was the distance between each pc if you can recall or at lease if there was not any ledge, how far from the last cam to the next pc. Thanks Majid
Majid, what do you expect to learn from this ??
Go wear a helmet
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scrapedape
Apr 20, 2006, 10:00 PM
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Nice job on the rescue. Thanks for coming in and answering these questions too. One more question: was the leader P2 when he fell, correct?
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crankingclimber
Apr 20, 2006, 11:02 PM
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Scrapedape - Yep, he was on pitch two, although they might have used more depending on how this guy got to where he was, but basically, pitch two.
Majid - You're questions are slightly confusing, and I don't know the answers to the ones I'm not confused on - I'm afraid I wasn't looking extremely closely at his gear and all, partly because he'd fallen and then lowered so far that it was all way above me, and partly because I had more pressing concerns. The guide who got his partner down saw some of the gear, but some of it just got the rope pulled through (not to mention the gear from my rack, as well as an amalgamation of other people's racks that were involved which had to be left), and was collected the next day by some friends of mine (thank god - I got out of leading that monstrous 'route' again, and in a rainstorm to boot). The gear which the guide did see was supposedly pretty awful, which fits in with everything else in the story.
Will
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crankingclimber
Apr 20, 2006, 11:05 PM
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edit - grr, double post
Will
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majid_sabet
Apr 21, 2006, 2:52 AM
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Will
you may want to review this link , any detail information you could remember will assist me on further reports and by the way, I know you guys did a good job, post the additional info here or email me directly.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1273626#1273626
Majid_sabet@hotmail.com
thanks
Majid
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