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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 6:33 PM
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Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat shit on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right.
Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx
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microbarn
Oct 30, 2006, 6:48 PM
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ATCs are standard for a gym. You are the oddity (not the gym) for never having used one before.
There are several safe techniques. A search will give the best answers.
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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 6:58 PM
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In reply to: ATCs are standard for a gym. You are the oddity (not the gym) for never having used one before. There are several safe techniques. A search will give the best answers.
Ive been to about 5 or 6 different gyms (here in Cal) and this is the only one yet. So standard, not sure. seems like there getting outdated over here, Expecially for TR.
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granite_grrl
Oct 30, 2006, 6:58 PM
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I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri.
Personally, unless I'm belaying someone who's spending a lot of time hangdogging I'd rather use amd ATC style device.
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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri. Personally, unless I'm belaying someone who's spending a lot of time hangdogging I'd rather use amd ATC style device.
Yes my partner was doing allot of that, they were getting all freaked out, so they ended up not even wanting to climb. Thats what brought up my question.
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saxfiend
Oct 30, 2006, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ATCs are standard for a gym. You are the oddity (not the gym) for never having used one before. There are several safe techniques. A search will give the best answers. Ive been to about 5 or 6 different gyms (here in Cal) and this is the only one yet. So standard, not sure. seems like there getting outdated over here, Expecially for TR.
If you've been climbing enough to have been to five or six gyms, it's time you got your own gear (harness, shoes, belay biner, belay device).
JL
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Oct 30, 2006, 8:35 PM
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[quote:9c6faf3a22="matty0h_52"]Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat s--- on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right.
Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx[/quote:9c6faf3a22]
Just curious what you used before using the ATC. I am thinking a gri gri. If you passed their belay test, how did you know how to use it for the test? I had only went to one indoor gym ( I like the outdoor crags) and the test was just that, a test. The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? ..........
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dblah36
Oct 30, 2006, 8:36 PM
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ATC's are the standard belay devices for most all gyms.
If you are visiting up to 5 or 6 different gyms then you should just buy your belay device that makes you the most comfortable
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fearofheights
Oct 30, 2006, 8:44 PM
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Are you sure you're talking about an ATC? Your post makes more sense if you meant to say that you are used to using an ATC, but the gym made you use a gri gri. For example, I think Planet Granite does this.
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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat s--- on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right. Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx Just curious what you used before using the ATC. I am thinking a gri gri. If you passed their belay test, how did you know how to use it for the test? I had only went to one indoor gym ( I like the outdoor crags) and the test was just that, a test. The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? ..........
I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. And yes, im sure i will definetly have my own soon.
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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: Are you sure you're talking about an ATC? Your post makes more sense if you meant to say that you are used to using an ATC, but the gym made you use a gri gri. For example, I think Planet Granite does this.
No i know for sure it was a ATC.
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crazyclimber23
Oct 30, 2006, 8:55 PM
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Personally i like to use an ATC. I just like them better than the gri gris. I'm just more comfortable with an ATC.
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Oct 30, 2006, 8:56 PM
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[quote:2444981fcc="matty0h_52"][quote:2444981fcc="fmd"][quote:2444981fcc="matty0h_52"]Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat s--- on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right.
Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx[/quote:2444981fcc]
Just curious what you used before using the ATC. I am thinking a gri gri. If you passed their belay test, how did you know how to use it for the test? I had only went to one indoor gym ( I like the outdoor crags) and the test was just that, a test. The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? ..........[/quote:2444981fcc]
I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. And yes, im sure i will definetly have my own soon.[/quote:2444981fcc]
Now I am curious. I dont climb at indoor gyms, but what people here are saying is that you can bring your own belay device. If that is the case, do they belay test you on different devices?. I had received a belay card for the gyms device where I had climbed once (gri gri). Are you allowed to use your own device of choice and if so, how do they (the gym) know that you are familiar with it??
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bill413
Oct 30, 2006, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. In reply to: I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. In reply to: The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? |
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zip_ty
Oct 30, 2006, 9:05 PM
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There are three gyms I climb at in this area. Stoneworks and Club Sport both provide Gri-Gri's for members to use and you are not allowed to use anything else for climbing in the gym.
PRG, however, requires that you bring, and use, your own ATC device. From what I understand, they don't allow you to use anything else. I could be wrong about the last part since I've only been there twice
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Oct 30, 2006, 9:09 PM
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[quote:567631cdcb="zip_ty"]There are three gyms I climb at in this area. Stoneworks and Club Sport both provide Gri-Gri's for members to use and you are not allowed to use anything else for climbing in the gym.
PRG, however, requires that you bring, and use, your own ATC device. From what I understand, they don't allow you to use anything else. I could be wrong about the last part since I've only been there twice[/quote:567631cdcb]
So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC??
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carabiner96
Oct 30, 2006, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: ATCs are standard for a gym. You are the oddity (not the gym) for never having used one before. There are several safe techniques. A search will give the best answers.
Learning from someone in person who knows what they're doing will give you the best and SAFEST answers.
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matty0h_52
Oct 30, 2006, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. In reply to: I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. In reply to: The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? So, if I have this right, you belayed your partner on a device that you felt you didn't know how to use, nor understand?
At first ya, then he passed me then i got a Little more confident. Then we spent the first 30min to 45min or so on the device, just learning it. We go up a little then took a fall... then i would get lowered...go up...come down slow. Repeat as nessesary, or untill we both felt comfortable useing it.
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zip_ty
Oct 30, 2006, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There are three gyms I climb at in this area. Stoneworks and Club Sport both provide Gri-Gri's for members to use and you are not allowed to use anything else for climbing in the gym. PRG, however, requires that you bring, and use, your own ATC device. From what I understand, they don't allow you to use anything else. I could be wrong about the last part since I've only been there twice So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC??
I double checked the rules on their website. The rule says "You must belay with an approved belay device. Belaying with a munter hitch or a figure 8 device is not allowed." This leads me to believe that you can bring your own gri-gri but when I was there I remember the guy who checked me in saying that you had to have your own ATC.
I have a co-worker who climbs there all the time and I will check with her. For some reason I have ATC only stuck in my head but as a point of clarification I will check again.
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bill413
Oct 30, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. In reply to: I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. In reply to: The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? So, if I have this right, you belayed your partner on a device that you felt you didn't know how to use, nor understand? At first ya, then he passed me then i got a Little more confident. Then we spent the first 30min to 45min or so on the device, just learning it. We go up a little then took a fall... then i would get lowered...go up...come down slow. Repeat as nessesary, or untill we both felt comfortable useing it.
Actually, much better.
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lena_chita
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Oct 30, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: Here's a better question: why don't you have your own belay device? If you've been climbing enough to have been to five or six gyms, it's time you got your own gear (harness, shoes, belay biner, belay device). JL
I agree with the advice in principle. However, there were couple of gyms that I visited while traveling that REQUIRED you to use their belay devices.
And yeah, I've seen more gri-gris than ATCs in the gyms overall, though in our gym all new climbers are taught to belay with ATC and anybody coming in has to take belay test on ATC. Some people belay with gri-gris, but 98% at our gym go with ATCs.
It seems that there are a lot of silly rules out there where the gyms are concerned.
SOme gyms allow you to use whatever device you are comfortable with, others set their rules.
One gym (in Manhattan) required us to use TWO locking 'biners (opposed, of course :roll: ) to attach the ATC to the harness. No, they didn't reuire two ropes... :D and the fact that ATC was not doubled up did not bother them either.
One gym I've been to had the belay set up so the gri-gri was attachced to a floor anchor, and to the rope was already threaded through, and you never ever took it off the rope or off the anchor -- in other words never clipped it to your harness, just belayed off the anchor. I had a couple of friend's kids with me-- 10 and 12 yo at the time, never climbed before-- and the gym guy just showed them to "pull here when they go up, pull this thing when they want to go down" and that was the end of instructions...
Yet another gym I remember had figure 8 on the bight permanently tied at the end of the rope, and you were supposed to use a 'biner (actually, two biners :roll: ) to clip the knot to your harness... Weird, how they first introduce an unnecessary element into it, and then double it up to make it redundant...
Most of the above seems really silly, but if you put it into perspective: most gyms get their busness from first-time or inexperienced climbers, kids birthday parties and scout groups, and for those kinds of climbers it makes sense to have stupid setup like that-- instead of teaching them to tie the knot or belay with ATC, you just show them how to lock the biner and they are ready to climb, less time spent on tying knots...
Oh well, when in Rome... and all that.
In any case, weird gym requirements aside, it is good to know several techniques.
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jgloporto
Oct 30, 2006, 10:05 PM
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In the gyms around here, gri-gri's are required for top roping and there is one clipped on at every rope. You are allowed to use a standard ATC when belaying a lead climber. I have a BD Guide and was told to get a standard ATC for the gym. (I suppose its because the staff has to walk around and visually inspect everything from a distance and they don't want those guys to have to stop and figure out if a non-standard device is set up properly).
To the OP, you should know how to use an ATC and the words "Belay On" should not be uttered if you look down at your harness and aren't sure what you are looking at. Videos aren't a proxy for live instruction. Forget about satisfying some gyms belay check, you should not put someone else's safety in your hands if you aren't proficient in how to use the equipment even if the gym checked you out.
It would be best if you took a belay course at that gym using an ATC.
Joe
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zeke_sf
Oct 30, 2006, 11:01 PM
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from what I've seen and heard, gym "standards" vary a lot from gym to gym. my gym, for instance, requires you bring your own lead rope, while it's common practice for other gyms to provide them for you (maybe would have prevented the accident in Sacramento?). I've heard of grigri only gyms (which are also provided), gyms with auto-belays, a gym that allowed the use of trad gear (not sure if I believe this one), and quite a few other things.
grigris are aiigghht, but I don't think they are as useful when you start getting into multi-pitch, etc. for an atc that provides more friction for hangdogging, try the atc-xp by black diamond. also, when I first used an atc I didn't make a sharp enough angle and tried using more grip to lock the device. try holding it down to the outside of your thigh when you brake to really lock it down. you're going to find people who only like grigris or atc, but don't get so foolish as to forget it's the belayer's ability that counts most.
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zip_ty
Oct 30, 2006, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC??
So I guess as long as it's an approved belay device you can use it. The only thing that matters is that you pass the belay test to begin with.
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sorryfingers
Oct 30, 2006, 11:56 PM
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It's an ATC not a frickin' nuclear reactor. As long as you don't throw both your hands up in panic when your partner takes a fall, ATC's and grigri's pretty much are functionally identical (for belaying a toproped climber).
I guess I'm saying that if you can use a grigri properly, using an ATC for gym climbing (with no "training", gasp!) should be a cake-walk.
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coolklimber
Oct 31, 2006, 12:28 AM
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Its probably better to learn how to belay with an ATC, rather than relying on a GriGri all the time.
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epoch
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Oct 31, 2006, 12:57 AM
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T2.....
It's been a while, and I think a few are rusty.....
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iamthewallress
Oct 31, 2006, 1:42 AM
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The Bay Area gyms that I've been to that provide gri-gris have them permenantly fixed on the rope so that you can't easily steal them. You get more pumped dragging that old gym rope through the gri-gri than you do climbing your routes.
Anyone who doesn't understand how to safely use and ATC is going to be even sketchier w/ all of the moving parts on a gri-gri, IMO.
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matty0h_52
Oct 31, 2006, 3:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri. Granite_grrl, I'll take your first comment one step further and say that I think it's a bad thing to learn on a gri-gri. I know I and many others have said it before, but learning on a gri-gri instills a false sense of complacency, which can have nasty results.
I Think im starting to think that was my issue. the Gri Gri. The issue that was scaring my partner is they wanted total tightness of the rope. And when pulling out the slack i would have to drop my right hand to get into the lock position and that mavment would add a little slack and that would loosen the titness of the rope. Then i would slide my brake hand back up twards the ATC and then pull up..then repete. I think its time for me to take a class on useing the ATC, and to buy my own belay device.
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mushroomcloud_2
Oct 31, 2006, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri. Granite_grrl, I'll take your first comment one step further and say that I think it's a bad thing to learn on a gri-gri. I know I and many others have said it before, but learning on a gri-gri instills a false sense of complacency, which can have nasty results.
Well, I learned to belay on a grigri....I think a lot of it depends on the person teaching. He made sure I knew how to use the device and the importance of brake hand, and being a good belayer.....
You can teach some how to improperly use an atc just as easily as a grigri.
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dobson
Oct 31, 2006, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: You can teach some how to improperly use an atc just as easily as a grigri.
Yes. But the student is likely to find out that he is wrong sooner with an ATC than a grigri.
People who belay exclusively with a grigri can get in the habit of belaying incorrectly without an accident until they switch to a different device. Their partner may trust the belay more than that of a beginner, and get into a risky situation.
Hopefully someone who learns improper belay technique with an ATC can figure out his mistake before someone is put in a position of high risk.
p.s. I use a grigri sometimes and like it. I just want people to be aware of possible risks.
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mushroomcloud_2
Oct 31, 2006, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You can teach some how to improperly use an atc just as easily as a grigri. Yes. But the student is likely to find out that he is wrong sooner with an ATC than a grigri. People who belay exclusively with a grigri can get in the habit of belaying incorrectly without an accident until they switch to a different device. Their partner may trust the belay more than that of a beginner, and get into a risky situation. Hopefully someone who learns improper belay technique with an ATC can figure out his mistake before someone is put in a position of high risk. p.s. I use a grigri sometimes and like it. I just want people to be aware of possible risks.
Hopefully no one will ever find themselves in a risky situation... but unfortunately, I've seen more misuse with an ATC than I have with a grigri.... Both should be used with the utmost respect.
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bill413
Oct 31, 2006, 1:52 PM
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In reply to: I Think im starting to think that was my issue. the Gri Gri. The issue that was scaring my partner is they wanted total tightness of the rope. And when pulling out the slack i would have to drop my right hand to get into the lock position and that mavment would add a little slack and that would loosen the titness of the rope. Then i would slide my brake hand back up twards the ATC and then pull up..then repete. I think its time for me to take a class on useing the ATC, and to buy my own belay device.
You should learn to climb with a little slack in the system. I'm not advocating great loops of hanging rope, but when you climb, there should be no upward pull on your harness from the belayer.
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Oct 31, 2006, 2:50 PM
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[quote:b3915c67a8="mushroomcloud_2"][quote:b3915c67a8="dobson"][quote:b3915c67a8]You can teach some how to improperly use an atc just as easily as a grigri.[/quote:b3915c67a8]
Yes. But the student is likely to find out that he is wrong sooner with an ATC than a grigri.
People who belay exclusively with a grigri can get in the habit of belaying incorrectly without an accident until they switch to a different device. Their partner may trust the belay more than that of a beginner, and get into a risky situation.
Hopefully someone who learns improper belay technique with an ATC can figure out his mistake before someone is put in a position of high risk.
p.s. I use a grigri sometimes and like it. I just want people to be aware of possible risks.[/quote:b3915c67a8]
Hopefully no one will ever find themselves in a risky situation... but unfortunately,[b:b3915c67a8] I've seen more misuse with an ATC than I have with a grigri.... Both should be used with the utmost respect.[/quote:b3915c67a8][/b:b3915c67a8]
I had seen it the othe way around. I had seen more people misuse the gri-gri than that of a ATC. I think climbers are more relaying on the gri-gri because of it auto locking mode. I had seen belayer not looking at their partners, taking their hands off the gri gri and etc because they think it is fool proof.
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gandolf
Oct 31, 2006, 3:37 PM
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The gyms in my area, that I have been to, use Gri-Gri's in the top rope area's (provided by the gyms). In the lead area's, you are required to bring your own belay device, which can be an ATC or Gri-Gri.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 31, 2006, 3:38 PM
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Getting instruction/taking a test in a gym is a little like shopping at REI. You may get someone who is experienced and knows what they are talking about, but.....then again, you may not, and you pay the same price for it. My advice for anyone who is going to take any form of instruction in a gym, is to find out a little more about who is giving the instruction.
Josh
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hirvimaki
Oct 31, 2006, 4:35 PM
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My local gym, Stoneage, has gri gri's set up on the easier TR routes (the 7's and 8's and a few of the 9's). All the other TR's as well as the lead routes require you have your own belay device - they don't restrict the type; I've seen gri gri's and 8's and, most commonly, ATCs - and on the lead routes you have to bring your own rope. The gri gri's set up on the easy routes are for the casual climbers, the birthday party kids, etc. Before you belay on any of the other routes you have to pass a belay test (both climbing and belaying). This system seems to work pretty well for the gym.
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Deleted
Oct 31, 2006, 5:17 PM
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[quote:5a303124a4="matty0h_52"][quote:5a303124a4="csgambill"][quote:5a303124a4="granite_grrl"]I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri.
[/quote:5a303124a4]
Granite_grrl, I'll take your first comment one step further and say that I think it's a bad thing to learn on a gri-gri. I know I and many others have said it before, but learning on a gri-gri instills a false sense of complacency, which can have nasty results.[/quote:5a303124a4]
I Think im starting to think that was my issue. the Gri Gri. The issue that was scaring my partner is they wanted total tightness of the rope. And when pulling out the slack [b:5a303124a4]i would have to drop my right hand [/b:5a303124a4]to get into the lock position and that mavment would add a little slack and that would loosen the titness of the rope. Then i would slide my brake hand back up twards the ATC and then pull up..then repete.[b:5a303124a4] I think its time for me to take a class on useing the ATC, and to buy my own belay device[/b:5a303124a4].[/quote:5a303124a4]
You should never let your brake hand leave the rope to take up the slack when belaying your partner!!
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dan2see
Oct 31, 2006, 5:34 PM
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The gyms in my area can rent you climbing gear, but everybody brings their own. And they "test" your belay action with your own gear, so that adds a safety factor.
The ropes at CCC are fat and soft. They provide a comfortable feel for the belayer's hands.
But this thick, soft rope created so much friction in my ATC Guide that my hands got over-tired just dragging the rope through. I could not continue! Luckily I had my old Trango Pyramid, that worked just fine.
According to Black Diamond's instructions, the "ATC Guide" has a high-friction mode and a low-friction mode, but I did not want to experiment when I was belaying a climber.
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matty0h_52
Oct 31, 2006, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I don't think that the ATC is the standard for most gyms. But I also don't think that its a bad thing to have to leard to use one instead of a gri-gri. Granite_grrl, I'll take your first comment one step further and say that I think it's a bad thing to learn on a gri-gri. I know I and many others have said it before, but learning on a gri-gri instills a false sense of complacency, which can have nasty results. I Think im starting to think that was my issue. the Gri Gri. The issue that was scaring my partner is they wanted total tightness of the rope. And when pulling out the slack i would have to drop my right hand to get into the lock position and that mavment would add a little slack and that would loosen the titness of the rope. Then i would slide my brake hand back up twards the ATC and then pull up..then repete. I think its time for me to take a class on useing the ATC, and to buy my own belay device. You should never let your brake hand leave the rope to take up the slack when belaying your partner!!
NO NO NO NOT LET GO, never said anything about leting my brake hand go. DROP my brake hand from the pull position to the brake position, never letting my hand go from the rope.
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minn8325
Oct 31, 2006, 8:22 PM
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Get a Triango Cinch they feed like an atc and lock like grigri plus they are about 30 dollars less expensive.
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markc
Oct 31, 2006, 9:42 PM
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As you can see from the varied responses, different gyms have different preferences for belay devices. One of the gyms in my area will rent ATCs and locking biners if you don't have your own, and teach all new climbers with ATCs. It's rare to see a climber there with anything other than a tube-style belay device. In another local gym, I think they have a fixed Gri-Gri with every rope.
In my opinion, the main issue isn't that some gyms utilize one device over the other, it's that you never received proper instruction with a new device. If you told me you had only used a Gri-Gri, I would have required you to take an intro belay class. You're a liability otherwise. In our local gym, all new climbers are taught the basics of tying in and belaying, run through it in practice, then take turns catching announced and unannounced falls while backed up. Novices aren't being given a device and a quick pat on the ass. If you're an experienced climber new to the gym, they charge a one-time belay test fee and check you out. Should you fail, it's off to the class...
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kobaz
Nov 1, 2006, 1:15 AM
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The thing I don't get is gyms that require the use of a grigri for *all* climbing. I was at the gym in vegas near desert outfitters and out of 10 people belaying leaders, 9 were doing so incorrectly.
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hugin
Nov 1, 2006, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: It's an ATC not a frickin' nuclear reactor. As long as you don't throw both your hands up in panic when your partner takes a fall, ATC's and grigri's pretty much are functionally identical (for belaying a toproped climber).
You say this as though it's a joke ... but it's happened to me. :shock:
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kmc
Nov 1, 2006, 6:24 PM
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"So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC?? " ~fmd
If you arent comfortable with an ATC or similiar tube style belay device, why the hell would you have a reverso? Its the exact same thing. The only difference is you can use it as an autoblock, which you can not do when belaying someone on TR while on the ground. Only when belaying them from above. More complicated than belaying with an ATC as well.
~kevin
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fmd
Nov 1, 2006, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: "So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC?? " ~fmd If you arent comfortable with an ATC or similiar tube style belay device, why the hell would you have a reverso? Its the exact same thing. The only difference is you can use it as an autoblock, which you can not do when belaying someone on TR while on the ground. Only when belaying them from above. More complicated than belaying with an ATC as well. ~kevin
Well thanks Kevin for your wealth of knowledge here. Danm, now I can climb with a reverso on TR. Here I was thinking I could use it in autoblock on all my Tring while I picked my nose...IDIOT..............
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markc
Nov 1, 2006, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So PRG is only ATC's also? Or do they allow you to bring say a reverso or gri gri and belay test you each day you climb if you dont use a ATC?? If you arent comfortable with an ATC or similiar tube style belay device, why the hell would you have a reverso? Its the exact same thing. The only difference is you can use it as an autoblock, which you can not do when belaying someone on TR while on the ground. Only when belaying them from above. More complicated than belaying with an ATC as well.
I have no idea where you're drawing your conclusion from his question. He wasn't suggesting a different comfort level with the Reverso or Gri-Gri vs. an ATC. He was asking if a gym had a very strict policy on the types of devices members could use. It could be rephrased as, "Do they require a Black Diamond ATC, or are they open to the use of different devices should you prove competency?" or "Do I really need to go out and buy an ATC in addition to my preferred device?" I think the answer was back on page 2.
By the way, using quote tags makes it easier to differentiate between posters. You can either hit "quote" in the post you want to reply to, or insert the tags once you're in the composition page.
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themadmilkman
Nov 2, 2006, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It's an ATC not a frickin' nuclear reactor. As long as you don't throw both your hands up in panic when your partner takes a fall, ATC's and grigri's pretty much are functionally identical (for belaying a toproped climber). You say this as though it's a joke ... but it's happened to me. :shock:
Same here, in the gym, with a date. It's my fault for not instructing her better, but she freaked out when the rope started going through the gri-gri too quickly. She let go of the rope but not the lever.
I was only 25 feet up at most, on TR, and had the open gri-gri and the rope wrapped around a pole at the top to add friction. But everybody there says the look on my face when I realized I was being dropped was classic.
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jt512
Nov 2, 2006, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat s--- on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right. Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx Just curious what you used before using the ATC. I am thinking a gri gri. If you passed their belay test, how did you know how to use it for the test? I had only went to one indoor gym ( I like the outdoor crags) and the test was just that, a test. The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? .......... I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. And yes, im sure i will definetly have my own soon.
You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again.
And your spelling is painful to read.
Jay
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el_jerko
Nov 3, 2006, 12:39 AM
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Funny thing is, the regular old style ATC is still my favorite thing to belay with. Small, light, feeds rope like a dream. If I had a complaint it would be that it gets hot if you repel like a comando, but I don't.
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ja1484
Nov 3, 2006, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: You should never let your brake hand leave the rope to take up the slack when belaying your partner!!
I would just like to mention at this point that there are times when the most effective method of belay involves changing hands on the break line. However, the replacement hand is already firmly holding the break line before the hand to be relieved releases it and goes about its other work.
With respect to Gri-Gri/Locking Assist vs. ATC/Tube Style belay devices, both have uses, both have certain situations where they shine, and both are fatally dangerous if not used correctly. Arguing over which is better is a pointless debate about semantics and preference. What is *inarguable* is that using either type incorrectly in unacceptable.
Period.
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matty0h_52
Nov 3, 2006, 3:42 AM
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[quote="jt512"][quote="matty0h_52"]In reply to: You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again. And your spelling is painful to read. Jay
Hey thx for the good advice there Jay. I didn't know you were a comedian and a English major.
But all joking aside I did actually get instructions from another climber yesterday and they told me my belay technique was just fine. You just happened to read a post that was here since Monday. First thing i did was try and track someone down to teach me the ins and outs. Hopefully next time i wont run into any issues. But i plan on geting a few more lessons" before i give it another try.
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mushroomcloud_2
Nov 3, 2006, 4:56 AM
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[quote="matty0h_52"][quote="jt512"]In reply to: In reply to: You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again. And your spelling is painful to read. Jay Hey thx for the good advice there Jay. I didn't know you were a comedian and a English major. But all joking aside I did actually get instructions from another climber yesterday and they told me my belay technique was just fine. You just happened to read a post that was here since Monday. First thing i did was try and track someone down to teach me the ins and outs. Hopefully next time i wont run into any issues. But i plan on geting a few more lessons" before i give it another try.
:shock:
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zeke_sf
Nov 3, 2006, 5:11 PM
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^^^^^what's wrong with "hopefully next time..."? I always hope nothing goes wrong next time, and I'd also say I know how to belay properly. the other day I was lead belaying somebody, they hung and I locked off my device with the rope held against my thigh (an ATC). when the climber starts climbing again there's such friction on the rope I can barely pay out for her next clip. I look down and see the rope is clipped into a shoe biner facing outwards on my harness. this freakish thing happened when I locked the climber off like I've done many thousands of times before without incident. so I hope nothing like this happens, but I will insure it doesn't now that I've experienced this.
anyway, I think the OP is a good sport, and I'd rather he belay me than the masses of climbers too ignorant or scared to sack up and ask a "nOOb" question. I hope he learns to belay confidently and correctly.
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thulani
Nov 3, 2006, 5:31 PM
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Hi. I didn't look at your profile but I take it you're new. Thats allright, so am I. But really have you not encountered the never ending battle between the atc and the gri gri. I started climbing with the mountain club which does mostly trad and is mostly older than me so I didn't even know what a gri gri was for a long time. If you ask me everyone should learn on a tube style device. A gri gri basicly makes you a semi inteligent couterweight. An atc forces you to watch your climber and lock when neccessary. If you've never done this because the gri gri does it for you, you are seriously missing out on a major learning experience. Plus gri gris are 4 - 6 times the price of the best atcs. Just doesn't make sense to me. plus nothing like actually catching your partner, by locking off, you feel really cool. I started climbing with trad climbers and they are anal about safety and doing stuff right. For instance if you climb at gyms you probably have seen people cliping into the rope via a locking biner, this is a really bad habit but they keep doing it, cause it's only one pitch and you'll survive even if you fell from the top. But really you want to develop good habits before you're three pitches up. In my brief experience and having spoken to others, a lot of gyms have some very bad practices in play that you are better off not learning.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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kmc
Nov 3, 2006, 5:49 PM
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fmd,
Sorry for my previous post, didnt mean to sound like an A-hole, that just happens naturally I guess. My point was simply that if you were comfortable using a reverso, you should also be comfortable with an ATC or similiar basic tube style belay device since it works the same way.
Didnt mean to ruffle any feathers.
~Kevin
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kmc
Nov 3, 2006, 6:01 PM
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Personally I prefer an ATC, or Reverso when climbing outdoors. For me, I like that it is more veratile (use it to belay, rap, belay w/doubles, easty to lead belay on, etc.) The latter however may not be topics needed to discuss for the gym, especially for beginners. I feel like that an ATC is basic equipment that all climbers should be comfortable with using to belay. Feel free to disagree and state your opinions, as Im sure you will. Not to say I have anything against Gri Gris, they have there place too. But I trust the simplicity of an ATC and good belay technique.
If its possible to get bback to the original post, and this may have been said, but I dont feel like reading through all of this mess, but...
All gyms have different standards. Some ATC, some Gri Gri. Some you need your own belay device, others provide them. Some gyms you tie in retracable figure 8, others clip in to an 8 on a bite.
Respect the policies of each gym, they are all safe. These policies are often times not set by the gym owners/workers directly, but through other sources. Since it is a business, often time insurance companys will force them to do things a certain way. Or in some states, the state is beginning to regulate climbing gyms, forcing certain policies on them. (This is not neccesarilly a bad thing, except some of these people creating these policies know little to nothing about climbing)
My $.02
~Kevin
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xtrmecat
Nov 3, 2006, 7:08 PM
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I have an ATC, an ATC XP, aGRIGRI, a soloist, a reverso, a figure 8, and know how to Munter. I would never ever use any device i wouldn't know how to use in any and all situations that I would get into. If I cannot feel good climbing 300 feet off the ground knowing that my belay is going to prevent injury or death, then some kind of change is needed. When climbing, even on top rope your ability and training needs to be just as safe as on pitch 3 of a climb. If not you are over your head. Plain and simply doing your belayee and injustice by saying belay on when you really haven't got a clue if you just entered a contract for their safety or lied. Get professional instruction if at all in doubt. If you still have a question, ask it and get the instruction until there is no more question. If you have to ask, the answer is it is not safe.
Rant over.
Bob
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karma
Nov 3, 2006, 8:10 PM
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It is starting to look like everyone is arguing over how much they agree. I'm just glad you realize that you are not comfortable with the ATC and that you want/need additional assistance.
The main lesson I have been taught in any belay situation is that you never allow anything to distract you from your climber. Gyms are notorious for screaming kids, birthday parties and knuckleheads. Tune them out, watch your climber and communicate by using each other's names to help distinguish from other climbing parties. Last thing you want to do is hear "take" and short rope your partner, which could cause a fall... or worse yet give slack for a clip that doesn't exist!
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foreverabumbly
Nov 6, 2006, 11:44 AM
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I have been instructing in Gyms and on artificial walls for 5 years, with ATC's and Stitch plates, then with Gri Gri's when they came out. and for beginner groups (escpecially school kids) Gri Gri's have some severe disadvantages to them:
1. The autolocking mechanism makes using them idiot proof, which means any idiot can use them.
beginners have the annoying habit of mucking around with their technique because they think that it is "safe" all the time.
2.It promotes peole to be lazy.
people get slack when they use auto locking belay devices and dont concentrate on the climber, they talk to their friends and ALWAYS let go of the brake end.
3. probably the most disturbing, and happens the most-
The most dangerous time using a gri gri is when lowering down, when the belayer has complete control. if anything goes wrong the bodys FIRST reaction is to grip whatever they are holding tighter in shock. this means the handle on the grigri which only makes the climber fall harder. This happens a lot and is scary.
Although I think Gri Gri's are great, they are not bombproof, and shouldnt be treated like they are. If all you use is a gri gri then you need to make
sure you dont form bad habits - and still learn how to use other devices, I use an ATC all the time, but only because I trad climb on double ropes and its hard to fit the second line through the Gri Gri.
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thespider
Nov 6, 2006, 9:47 PM
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Lucky you, All we get at our gym is a munter hitch... :twisted:
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duncan_s
Nov 13, 2006, 9:16 PM
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That can't be nice on the ropes.
I'd never teach anyone to belay with a gri-gri if they were learning to climb, maybe use them if I was running a group belay on multiple ropes.
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minn8325
Nov 15, 2006, 7:33 PM
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Triango cinch....Feeds like dream runs ropes 9.4 to 11. and they are 50 bucks I do think everyone should know how to use an ATC and own one as well.
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perp
Nov 20, 2006, 3:04 PM
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On a side-note:
Is it even possible to use a gri-gri "correctly" without three hands?
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