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jt512
Nov 2, 2006, 10:36 PM
Post #51 of 66
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Went to a indoor gym this weekend and there ONLY belay device they had there was a ATC. Whats up with that? Do allot of indoor gyms do this? I'm still new to climbing and have never used this before, neither had my partner. and i did how ever manage not to eat s--- on the floor nor did i drop my partner. Just kind of funny that there letting anyone use this device- rookie or not. Sure they gave me a simple belay test, and i passed but the fact of any inexperienced climber could go in and use one does not sound right. Also i wanted to know if a different belay technique is needed when using this device. Im not sure the NAME of the technique im useing now but its the one where you are removeing slack by lifting brake hand infront of you while pulling up and then with your left hand you are take the excess slack from the bottom of your right hand. Im sure someone knows with out me getting into some crazy detail. thx Just curious what you used before using the ATC. I am thinking a gri gri. If you passed their belay test, how did you know how to use it for the test? I had only went to one indoor gym ( I like the outdoor crags) and the test was just that, a test. The gym didnt show me or explained to me how to use thier device prior to giving thier belay test? .......... I pased the test becuase i watched a instrutional vid on how to set up similar device. And i told the guy before i did it that i never used one. And i belayed just like i would with a gri gri. and he passed me. And yes, im sure i will definetly have my own soon.
You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again.
And your spelling is painful to read.
Jay
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el_jerko
Nov 3, 2006, 12:39 AM
Post #52 of 66
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Funny thing is, the regular old style ATC is still my favorite thing to belay with. Small, light, feeds rope like a dream. If I had a complaint it would be that it gets hot if you repel like a comando, but I don't.
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ja1484
Nov 3, 2006, 1:14 AM
Post #53 of 66
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In reply to: You should never let your brake hand leave the rope to take up the slack when belaying your partner!!
I would just like to mention at this point that there are times when the most effective method of belay involves changing hands on the break line. However, the replacement hand is already firmly holding the break line before the hand to be relieved releases it and goes about its other work.
With respect to Gri-Gri/Locking Assist vs. ATC/Tube Style belay devices, both have uses, both have certain situations where they shine, and both are fatally dangerous if not used correctly. Arguing over which is better is a pointless debate about semantics and preference. What is *inarguable* is that using either type incorrectly in unacceptable.
Period.
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matty0h_52
Nov 3, 2006, 3:42 AM
Post #54 of 66
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[quote="jt512"][quote="matty0h_52"]In reply to: You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again. And your spelling is painful to read. Jay
Hey thx for the good advice there Jay. I didn't know you were a comedian and a English major.
But all joking aside I did actually get instructions from another climber yesterday and they told me my belay technique was just fine. You just happened to read a post that was here since Monday. First thing i did was try and track someone down to teach me the ins and outs. Hopefully next time i wont run into any issues. But i plan on geting a few more lessons" before i give it another try.
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mushroomcloud_2
Nov 3, 2006, 4:56 AM
Post #55 of 66
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[quote="matty0h_52"][quote="jt512"]In reply to: In reply to: You are an accident waiting to happen. Get some qualified instruction before using an ATC again. And your spelling is painful to read. Jay Hey thx for the good advice there Jay. I didn't know you were a comedian and a English major. But all joking aside I did actually get instructions from another climber yesterday and they told me my belay technique was just fine. You just happened to read a post that was here since Monday. First thing i did was try and track someone down to teach me the ins and outs. Hopefully next time i wont run into any issues. But i plan on geting a few more lessons" before i give it another try.
:shock:
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zeke_sf
Nov 3, 2006, 5:11 PM
Post #56 of 66
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^^^^^what's wrong with "hopefully next time..."? I always hope nothing goes wrong next time, and I'd also say I know how to belay properly. the other day I was lead belaying somebody, they hung and I locked off my device with the rope held against my thigh (an ATC). when the climber starts climbing again there's such friction on the rope I can barely pay out for her next clip. I look down and see the rope is clipped into a shoe biner facing outwards on my harness. this freakish thing happened when I locked the climber off like I've done many thousands of times before without incident. so I hope nothing like this happens, but I will insure it doesn't now that I've experienced this.
anyway, I think the OP is a good sport, and I'd rather he belay me than the masses of climbers too ignorant or scared to sack up and ask a "nOOb" question. I hope he learns to belay confidently and correctly.
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thulani
Nov 3, 2006, 5:31 PM
Post #57 of 66
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Registered: Jun 20, 2006
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Hi. I didn't look at your profile but I take it you're new. Thats allright, so am I. But really have you not encountered the never ending battle between the atc and the gri gri. I started climbing with the mountain club which does mostly trad and is mostly older than me so I didn't even know what a gri gri was for a long time. If you ask me everyone should learn on a tube style device. A gri gri basicly makes you a semi inteligent couterweight. An atc forces you to watch your climber and lock when neccessary. If you've never done this because the gri gri does it for you, you are seriously missing out on a major learning experience. Plus gri gris are 4 - 6 times the price of the best atcs. Just doesn't make sense to me. plus nothing like actually catching your partner, by locking off, you feel really cool. I started climbing with trad climbers and they are anal about safety and doing stuff right. For instance if you climb at gyms you probably have seen people cliping into the rope via a locking biner, this is a really bad habit but they keep doing it, cause it's only one pitch and you'll survive even if you fell from the top. But really you want to develop good habits before you're three pitches up. In my brief experience and having spoken to others, a lot of gyms have some very bad practices in play that you are better off not learning.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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kmc
Nov 3, 2006, 5:49 PM
Post #58 of 66
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fmd,
Sorry for my previous post, didnt mean to sound like an A-hole, that just happens naturally I guess. My point was simply that if you were comfortable using a reverso, you should also be comfortable with an ATC or similiar basic tube style belay device since it works the same way.
Didnt mean to ruffle any feathers.
~Kevin
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kmc
Nov 3, 2006, 6:01 PM
Post #59 of 66
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Personally I prefer an ATC, or Reverso when climbing outdoors. For me, I like that it is more veratile (use it to belay, rap, belay w/doubles, easty to lead belay on, etc.) The latter however may not be topics needed to discuss for the gym, especially for beginners. I feel like that an ATC is basic equipment that all climbers should be comfortable with using to belay. Feel free to disagree and state your opinions, as Im sure you will. Not to say I have anything against Gri Gris, they have there place too. But I trust the simplicity of an ATC and good belay technique.
If its possible to get bback to the original post, and this may have been said, but I dont feel like reading through all of this mess, but...
All gyms have different standards. Some ATC, some Gri Gri. Some you need your own belay device, others provide them. Some gyms you tie in retracable figure 8, others clip in to an 8 on a bite.
Respect the policies of each gym, they are all safe. These policies are often times not set by the gym owners/workers directly, but through other sources. Since it is a business, often time insurance companys will force them to do things a certain way. Or in some states, the state is beginning to regulate climbing gyms, forcing certain policies on them. (This is not neccesarilly a bad thing, except some of these people creating these policies know little to nothing about climbing)
My $.02
~Kevin
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xtrmecat
Nov 3, 2006, 7:08 PM
Post #60 of 66
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I have an ATC, an ATC XP, aGRIGRI, a soloist, a reverso, a figure 8, and know how to Munter. I would never ever use any device i wouldn't know how to use in any and all situations that I would get into. If I cannot feel good climbing 300 feet off the ground knowing that my belay is going to prevent injury or death, then some kind of change is needed. When climbing, even on top rope your ability and training needs to be just as safe as on pitch 3 of a climb. If not you are over your head. Plain and simply doing your belayee and injustice by saying belay on when you really haven't got a clue if you just entered a contract for their safety or lied. Get professional instruction if at all in doubt. If you still have a question, ask it and get the instruction until there is no more question. If you have to ask, the answer is it is not safe.
Rant over.
Bob
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karma
Nov 3, 2006, 8:10 PM
Post #61 of 66
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It is starting to look like everyone is arguing over how much they agree. I'm just glad you realize that you are not comfortable with the ATC and that you want/need additional assistance.
The main lesson I have been taught in any belay situation is that you never allow anything to distract you from your climber. Gyms are notorious for screaming kids, birthday parties and knuckleheads. Tune them out, watch your climber and communicate by using each other's names to help distinguish from other climbing parties. Last thing you want to do is hear "take" and short rope your partner, which could cause a fall... or worse yet give slack for a clip that doesn't exist!
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foreverabumbly
Nov 6, 2006, 11:44 AM
Post #62 of 66
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Registered: Oct 7, 2006
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I have been instructing in Gyms and on artificial walls for 5 years, with ATC's and Stitch plates, then with Gri Gri's when they came out. and for beginner groups (escpecially school kids) Gri Gri's have some severe disadvantages to them:
1. The autolocking mechanism makes using them idiot proof, which means any idiot can use them.
beginners have the annoying habit of mucking around with their technique because they think that it is "safe" all the time.
2.It promotes peole to be lazy.
people get slack when they use auto locking belay devices and dont concentrate on the climber, they talk to their friends and ALWAYS let go of the brake end.
3. probably the most disturbing, and happens the most-
The most dangerous time using a gri gri is when lowering down, when the belayer has complete control. if anything goes wrong the bodys FIRST reaction is to grip whatever they are holding tighter in shock. this means the handle on the grigri which only makes the climber fall harder. This happens a lot and is scary.
Although I think Gri Gri's are great, they are not bombproof, and shouldnt be treated like they are. If all you use is a gri gri then you need to make
sure you dont form bad habits - and still learn how to use other devices, I use an ATC all the time, but only because I trad climb on double ropes and its hard to fit the second line through the Gri Gri.
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thespider
Nov 6, 2006, 9:47 PM
Post #63 of 66
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Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 471
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Lucky you, All we get at our gym is a munter hitch... :twisted:
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duncan_s
Nov 13, 2006, 9:16 PM
Post #64 of 66
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Registered: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 90
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That can't be nice on the ropes.
I'd never teach anyone to belay with a gri-gri if they were learning to climb, maybe use them if I was running a group belay on multiple ropes.
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minn8325
Nov 15, 2006, 7:33 PM
Post #65 of 66
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Registered: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 33
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Triango cinch....Feeds like dream runs ropes 9.4 to 11. and they are 50 bucks I do think everyone should know how to use an ATC and own one as well.
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perp
Nov 20, 2006, 3:04 PM
Post #66 of 66
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Registered: Sep 30, 2004
Posts: 83
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On a side-note:
Is it even possible to use a gri-gri "correctly" without three hands?
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