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billcoe_
May 2, 2007, 4:45 AM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...;;page=unread#unread
http://www.supertopo.com/...59&tn=0&mr=0
In discussing this RC.com post, wherein a climber was nearly killed when his Alien failed, a new report of another Alien failure has surfaced.
I have had all of mine tested, and rarely fall or hang on gear. I am leaving for Yosemite in 4 days and will be taking and using mine. BUT, I am shocked by the second failure. Micah Dash said " I saw another Alien brazeing failure, with my own eyes, yesterday in Indian Creek. It was a new purple Alien maybe six months old. Nobody was hurt.We took pictures and will post them soon. "
It was a purple, placed at Indian Creek. Purple = 3500 lbs. Indain Creek = sandstone. You'd have expected the cam to track out or blow the rock out on the placement long before it fell apart.
The first guy getting nearly killed in a fall was bad as there may have been a bad belay as well, this adds to the suckiness factor substantially.
To advise being careful is an understatement.
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kane_schutzman
May 2, 2007, 4:57 AM
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Shit, I bought my purples 6 months ago, and sent them back because they were part of a recall batch. This sucks
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112
May 2, 2007, 5:36 AM
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I have my black, blue, and green loaned out to a good friend. Makes me worry if I should tell him to put them up? They are not brand new but they were produced during the dimple infestation. :(
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superbum
May 2, 2007, 6:13 AM
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GAWDDAMIT! Why oh why is the best cam ever made turning out to be a piece of shit?!?! I hope you are all liars...
aliens are the best unless they are breaking then that would make them the worst dissapointment ever...
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norushnomore
May 2, 2007, 9:28 AM
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I swapped all my aliens for c3s and never looked back.
Aliens now my bail gear
Use at your own risk if you find one ;)
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kevinheiss
May 2, 2007, 12:23 PM
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As much as Aliens are really good,(starting to like them more then my TCU), their recalls are keeping me far away from them.
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2007, 12:47 PM
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First of all the only real advantage for aliens is in the small sizes and off sets. You would have to be nuts to choose an orange alien over a red camalot. Now that The C3s and 4s are here the only reason to go with a standard alien is price. Buy a cheap piece of crap and take your chances or spend the big bucks... it's the way of the world. If you are an aid climber and have to use offsets its fine cause aid climbers are used to crap gear anyways
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m2j1s
May 2, 2007, 1:47 PM
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just curious, why does everyone keep reporting that they have a failed alien and they have pictures of it, but nobody takes the 2 minutes it takes to post the actual pics? obviously pictures are the only proof of a failed cam, so what is taking so long?
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2007, 1:52 PM
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failed aliens are not a myth, they are a reality......
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bobruef
May 2, 2007, 2:02 PM
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somebody should put up a *sticky* thread w/ links to other threads discussing recent alien failures.
i.e.- misdrilled axle, the dimpled one at The Creek, this recent non-dimpled one at The Creek, the bodyweighted orange, the one at The Red, and any others I'm forgetting
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Dillbag
May 2, 2007, 2:38 PM
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Why don't you put it together and PM a mod to get it stickyed?
Talk is cheap...
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bobruef
May 2, 2007, 3:19 PM
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OK, here's what I dug up based on memory and a quick search. If the threads I linked here aren't the best sources, or my descriptions are innacurate, somebody please post up a correction.
5/15/7 Non-dimpled Blue Alien fails at 900lbs when tested by Russ Walling http://www.rockclimbing.com/...2;page=unread#unread
Souders Crack 11d groundfall (broken cable, non dimpled, post recall)http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=groundfall;#1585733
Faulty Swage (post recall)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...n%20failure;#1316820
Dimpled Orange Alien Braze Failure at Indian Creek (the cam that started the recall)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...n%20failure;#1277756
Gray Alien braze failure (2005, pre-recall)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Non dimpled Paradise Forks Orange Alien bodyweight braze failure (post-recall)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Misdrilled Axle Holes (rei recall thread)
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Latest Indian Creek Purple Alien braze failure (newer cam, post-recall)
http://www.supertopo.com/...59&tn=0&mr=0
Tradrenn's oddly sized alien (deleted post)tradrenn wrote: Just the other day I was inspecting my gear ( OK I was bored and had nothing better to do with my time ) and after looking at my Aliens I have discover a little problem with my Yellow ones ( I have to of them ) The problem is that one Yellow Alien has a proper range of Yellow Alien, like it should. Second Yellow Alien has a range of Grey Alien. Difference between Yellow and Grey size range is not that much so it is just a minor inconvenience ( got to get some grey electrical tape ) Here are some picks for you people. The height of good lobe on yellow alien ( 0.508" ) The length of good lobe on yellow alien ( 0.709" ) The height of lobe on grey alien ( 0.553" ) The length of lobe on grey alien ( 0.774" ) The height of lobe on "bad" yellow alien ( 0.553 ) The length of lobe on "bad yellow alien ( 0.773" ) Range of yellow alien ( 0.698" ) (notice the yellow sling ) Range of grey alien ( 0.760" ) (notice the grey sling ) Range of "bad" yellow alien ( 0.761" ) (notice the yellow sling ) So, here is a little heads up for some of you that are getting into Aliens or buying more Aliens.
Edited to add 5/15 failure
(This post was edited by bobruef on May 15, 2007, 9:07 PM)
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 2, 2007, 5:17 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: To advise being careful is an understatement.
Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard.
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slucarelli
May 2, 2007, 7:52 PM
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I would never choose an orange Alien over a Red Camalot because they are not the same size. And believe it or not the larger Aliens sometimes fit better than Camalots. Also try using a Camalot in a shallow horizontal and see what happens to the stem.
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2007, 8:32 PM
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Whatever.. the larger aliens are just so freakin cheesy looking compared to a real cam JMOP
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m2j1s
May 2, 2007, 9:51 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: billcoe_ wrote: To advise being careful is an understatement. Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard.
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altelis
May 2, 2007, 11:24 PM
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m2j1s wrote: p.s. just curious, how many out there have taken whippers on aliens that held?[/quote sorry, but TERRIBLE logic like this makes me laugh. this is the WHOLE reason people want to post about cams that fail. we have an expectation that they won't fail, both because we have been told they won't and because we have LOADS of personal experience that tells us they won't. We've aided on them, bounce tested them, set anchors with them, whipped hard on them and they fail. all this personal experience leads us to believe that the next one we place should be no different. so, do you see how pointless it is to ask for experiences that back up experiences we have all had in order to confirm a belief that we all have that cams hold falls. we all know that cams, aliens included, hold falls. FOR THE MOST PART. what is important is sharing instances that show us our belief/trust may sometimes be ill-founded. not that we have to automatically trust these posts; yes, we should be skeptical and discerning....but filling pages and pages of posts of people that have cams that have held falls is USELESS
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tallmark515
May 2, 2007, 11:31 PM
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no photos to back this up, only experience. Not much of a safety issue, but worth noting. The woven metal sheath that connects the trigger to the bar that the lobes are wired to on a climbing partner's Orange Alien tore in half. The seperation occoured right at the point that the sheath connects to the bar. It made removing the cam from a crack a pain in the ass and pretty much rendered the unit useless after we finally got it out with a nut tool. No word on a response from CCH.
Note: Not a recalled unit.
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Dillbag
May 3, 2007, 1:38 AM
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tallmark515 wrote: no photos to back this up, only experience. Not much of a safety issue, but worth noting. The woven metal sheath that connects the trigger to the bar that the lobes are wired to on a climbing partner's Orange Alien tore in half. The seperation occoured right at the point that the sheath connects to the bar. It made removing the cam from a crack a pain in the ass and pretty much rendered the unit useless after we finally got it out with a nut tool. No word on a response from CCH. Note: Not a recalled unit.
Yes, but that is not a critical component in the safety of the unit...
Only for getting the piece out of the rock, which is of course important, but by no means anywhere close to the severity of an actual failure!
The problem you described can happen when the cams are older and the sheath has seen a lot of abuse. Similar to trigger wires breaking on a BD or Metolius...Since the sheath is in essence an extension of those trigger wires on the alien.
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tradrenn
May 3, 2007, 1:43 AM
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Bob
Thank you for a list.
Lets add one more thread about Aliens
"Minor problem with new Aliens" which was unfortunately deleted by me, ( I was getting fed up with old RC ) I feel stupid for deleting it now.
But:
As it turns out, I did save a copy of OP.
tradrenn wrote: Just the other day I was inspecting my gear ( OK I was bored and had nothing better to do with my time ) and after looking at my Aliens I have discover a little problem with my Yellow ones ( I have to of them ) The problem is that one Yellow Alien has a proper range of Yellow Alien, like it should. Second Yellow Alien has a range of Grey Alien. Difference between Yellow and Grey size range is not that much so it is just a minor inconvenience ( got to get some grey electrical tape ) Here are some picks for you people. The height of good lobe on yellow alien ( 0.508" )  The length of good lobe on yellow alien ( 0.709" )  The height of lobe on grey alien ( 0.553" )  The length of lobe on grey alien ( 0.774" )  The height of lobe on "bad" yellow alien ( 0.553 )  The length of lobe on "bad yellow alien ( 0.773" )  Range of yellow alien ( 0.698" ) (notice the yellow sling )  Range of grey alien ( 0.760" ) (notice the grey sling )  Range of "bad" yellow alien ( 0.761" ) (notice the yellow sling )  So, here is a little heads up for some of you that are getting into Aliens or buying more Aliens.
After that thread I did email CCH and told Dave about my problem, he asked me to give him a call.
I called Dave and we have come to conclusion that it was gray alien that was labeled yellow.
Following our conversation I did send that "bad yellow alien" ( as I used to call it in a "Minor......" thread ) with one more alien.
Cams were delivered to CCH on Sept 5 2006
I haven't heard from CCH since.
HTH
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j_ung
May 3, 2007, 1:51 AM
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Nice, Bob! Thanks! I hope is well in Maryland-land.
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slucarelli
May 3, 2007, 1:50 PM
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I own all eight Aliens except the grey one and I have personally fallen on every one, even the .33. I have taken up to 20' falls on them and took several 10' falls on the .33 without any problems. I fell on the blue Alien when it was placed in a horizontal crack, and I took a 20' fall on the large purple Alien on El Cap. last Spring. I use them in all types of rock including sand stone (Indian Creek), Granite and limestone (Yamnuska, Alberta Canada). I agree that failures are unacceptable but I personally think Aliens are great and they are always on my rack. My rack consists of Aliens, Camalots and a couple sets of stoppers and I climb 95% trad routes.
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saxfiend
May 3, 2007, 2:13 PM
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m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos.
JL
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carabiner96
May 3, 2007, 2:16 PM
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saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL
Well, we have physical evidence of AIDs, as in people dying.
Physical evidence of alien failure would be nice.
BTW, worst comprison ever.
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j_ung
May 3, 2007, 2:18 PM
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saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL
Well, there are some subtle differences between the two. 
I may be one of CCH's biggest detractors online right now, and I too am at least a little curious to see the pics -- and curious to know why they haven't been posted yet. It seems we're getting little but silence from pretty much everybody who's involved directly.
(This post was edited by j_ung on May 3, 2007, 2:19 PM)
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bobruef
May 3, 2007, 3:49 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL Well, we have physical evidence of AIDs, as in people dying. Physical evidence of alien failure would be nice. BTW, worst comprison ever.
While it may not be the best comparison ever, your argument against his logic is no more sound. If the physical evidence of AID's existence is people dying, then one could argue that the physical evidence proving the existence of faulty CCH cams is people decking and/or getting injured.
I too would like to see more substatial physical evidence. At this point, though, In the absence of said evidence, I'm tending to give CCH a little less of the benefit of the doubt. |
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medicus
May 3, 2007, 3:57 PM
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m2j1s wrote: obviously pictures are the only proof of a failed cam, so what is taking so long?
So if I handed you a failed alien, you would not consider it proof, but would only accept a picture?
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bobruef
May 3, 2007, 3:58 PM
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j_ung wrote: Nice, Bob! Thanks! I hope is well in Maryland-land.
Thanks, no problem.
I just got to thinking that the casual RC.com lurker might not be getting the whole picture here. I was suprised when I did a search, and remembered all of these threads. I think people need to keep all of this in perspective (i.e.- we're not just talking about 1 or 2 cams here).
Another thing to consider is that the amount of failures that have been reported here and at Supertopo likely represent just a sampling of the total population of Aliens.
As for Maryland-land, things are good. The wife and I are shoving off for NY in August (medical school). That's pending decisions from Oregon and KY. But right now, It's looking like the Gunks for me!
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wings
May 3, 2007, 4:00 PM
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This thread is degenerating into idiocy. If you don't have anything useful to say, please shut up.
- Seyil
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medicus
May 3, 2007, 4:02 PM
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wings wrote: This thread is degenerating into idiocy. If you don't have anything useful to say, please shut up. - Seyil
And this helps?
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svilnit
May 3, 2007, 4:03 PM
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bobruef wrote: j_ung wrote: Nice, Bob! Thanks! I hope is well in Maryland-land. Thanks, no problem. I just got to thinking that the casual RC.com lurker might not be getting the whole picture here. I was suprised when I did a search, and remembered all of these threads. I think people need to keep all of this in perspective (i.e.- we're not just talking about 1 or 2 cams here). Another thing to consider is that the amount of failures that have been reported here and at Supertopo likely represent just a sampling of the total population of Aliens. As for Maryland-land, things are good. The wife and I are shoving off for NY in August (medical school). That's pending decisions from Oregon and KY. But right now, It's looking like the Gunks for me!
We'd better get together at least once at the 'loaf or Seneca before you roll out.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 3, 2007, 4:21 PM
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bobruef wrote: At this point, though, In the absence of said evidence, I'm tending to give CCH a little less of the benefit of the doubt. Another possiblity is somebody interested in buying CCH is trying to drive the price down by spreading false rumors. But photos of the alleged failures could easily dispel that.
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madflash
May 3, 2007, 4:52 PM
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Bottom line is that aliens are unique and highly effective pieces when used properly, hell, even improperly. I have toke a 25 foot fall on my blue alien the other day where only 2 lobes had contact with the crack. I yarded back up to the piece and was shocked. I thought for sure it would have popped.
The point is...aliens are wicked. They also seem to have questionable quality control in production. This seems apparent when viewing the small differences in appearance and components between the same unit from different batches.
My advice to anyone is to have them tested by CCH. It might take a few weeks to get them back, but is worth it. After they come back, immediately go to the crack and test them yourself. I take large falls, 20+ feet, on all of my pieces the first time I ever use them. Call it piece of mind. Just back them up for safety.
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tomcat
May 3, 2007, 5:03 PM
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Dunno,seems like there are really a lot of Aliens in use,and for a long time.Most people I know carry some.The more in use,the more chance a few will fail.Most people I know carry the small ones,I carry black,blue,green and yellow.They are small cams and look to me like they would have some limitations just based on the size of the working parts.I'd guess there are ten times as many Aliens in play as C3's,since C3's are new and expensive.I would not be surprised to learn that Aliens have been placed 500 times more than C3's.Ditto whippers caught.A small cam that actually stays in the rock when you whip on it might well have a higher failure rate than ones that don't stay in the rock.
The Mountaingear catalog used to say something like"once popular with aid climbing afficionados,these cams have found their way onto many trad racks". The smaller ones have definate limitations.
Coming from a background precambrian,they seem pretty great to me.C3's might be better,but I still like the four cams on the Alien,if anything is bunky on the single side of a three cam unit it can pull out.Then it's pilot error,but the result is just as bad.
I'd like to see CCH tighten up their quality control and they don't sound awesome in the public relations department,but Aliens still have a lot of merit in my opinion.I'd like to see the pictures too,and hear more about the cams,their condition and was this the first time they got loaded or had they been working and developed an issue vs.off the shelf kin of failure.
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scuclimber
May 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
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I love how people continue to defend a company with consistently inconsistent quality control in the manufacturing of devices into whose figurative hands, lobes, swages, whatever, they may end up placing their lives.[/soapbox]
I'd like to see some photos too. 
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jt512
May 4, 2007, 5:17 AM
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j_ung wrote: saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL Well, there are some subtle differences between the two. I may be one of CCH's biggest detractors online right now, and I too am at least a little curious to see the pics -- and curious to know why they haven't been posted yet. It seems we're getting little but silence from pretty much everybody who's involved directly.
These people owe no duty to post pictures of their failed Aliens. They've already done a public service by reporting the failures. I see no reason to assume that they are perpetuating a hoax.
Jay
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 1:54 PM
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Oh, I almost forgot!
booyah!
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skinnyclimber
May 4, 2007, 1:59 PM
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so are those viral particles or infected cells?
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:11 PM
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at the risk of further contributing to the derailment of this thread:
budding virions from an infected cell.
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m2j1s
May 4, 2007, 2:14 PM
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I sent my aliens in the other day to get tested, and the day CCH recieved them they contacted me and tested them. The next day, they were in the mail. Doesn't sound like such bad service to me. And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous. This is an online forum, one that any random person can read and post on, therefore any one of us could start a thread saying "my tech friend broke in half!... i took some pictures...ill post them soon, but now i'm just gonna hide and not post anything for a few weeks .. Laterrrrr''
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112
May 4, 2007, 2:18 PM
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m2j1s wrote: And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous.
I agree. I have even tried to communicate with pinsandbones via PM. He hasn't reponded and he has been logging in. Not that I am saying he is lying, but it is irresponsible IMO.
I would think Micah is telling the truth, but who knows. Post them dam pictures please (if they exsist).
-Ken
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musicman1586
May 4, 2007, 2:29 PM
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tomcat wrote: A small cam that actually stays in the rock when you whip on it might well have a higher failure rate than ones that don't stay in the rock. The smaller ones have definate limitations.
I think you fail to understand what is going on here. A cam should not pull apart at forces well below the manufacturer specs. If manufactured properly, which there are aliens out there that have been, they bottom line should not fail when used in the proper way. What has happened here is that cams have failed in situations that they should not have failed in, period, if they were built to the manufacturer specs, and so the problem is not that aliens are not fantastic units, all too many people believe they are the best, the problem lies in that these fantastic units are not being built as they should be. Yes a small cam I would agree has a greater chance of failing, and any piece placed in an improper way can fail (forged friend in a horizontal with no tie off for example) but these reported failures have been under good conditions of which, had they been built correctly, they should have held.
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:31 PM
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m2j1s wrote: ... And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous. This is an online forum
This may be a stretch... but maybe, just maybe... not everyone who uses Aliens, or has had one fail is a regular user of internet climbing forums. Maybe, just maybe, the guy who was involved in the accident at the Red has bigger fish to fry at the moment. I'm glad these failure were reported at all. And while I too would like to see photos, I'll echo Jt512 in saying, it's hardly their responsibility to post said photos.
I'm having a hard time calling hoax on people who are reporting Alien failures these days. I'm a little more apt to believe CCH's at fault here, based on previous incidents and their management of them. At this point, doesn't it sound a little silly to point towards conspiracy theories and the like?
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skinnyclimber
May 4, 2007, 2:36 PM
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But it is a conspiracy. the people who have broken or heard of broken Aliens are conspiring to inform the internet using climber population of a potential life threatening situation. I'm cool with that.
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:47 PM
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[RANT]Also, would people PLEASE stop posting stuff like "I fell on an Alien and it held me." or "They sent my cams back promptly".
A few good experiences w/ CCH mean nothing. Hell, a few thousand good experiences mean very little when you consider the overwhelming amount of negative feedback on the company.
Hell, I'm glad my last United flight didn't crash this winter, but we're not aiming for over 50% success rates here. And I would think it absurd to respond to reports of multiple similar catastrophic failures on their jets with something like "oh, well I flew United the other day, and it was the best flight I've ever had" If United planes had fuel tank explosions on say 6 or 7 flights a year, there would be an alarming public outcry. Likewise, if 95% of Aliens don't fail at the braze (or the swage, or in the range, or at the cable...), it is simply unacceptable. [/RANT]
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caughtinside
May 4, 2007, 5:45 PM
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bobruef wrote: [RANT]Also, would people PLEASE stop posting stuff like "I fell on an Alien and it held me." or "They sent my cams back promptly". A few good experiences w/ CCH mean nothing. Hell, a few thousand good experiences mean very little when you consider the overwhelming amount of negative feedback on the company. Hell, I'm glad my last United flight didn't crash this winter, but we're not aiming for over 50% success rates here. And I would think it absurd to respond to reports of multiple similar catastrophic failures on their jets with something like "oh, well I flew United the other day, and it was the best flight I've ever had" If United planes had fuel tank explosions on say 6 or 7 flights a year, there would be an alarming public outcry. Likewise, if 95% of Aliens don't fail at the braze (or the swage, or in the range, or at the cable...), it is simply unacceptable. [/RANT]
well bob, I understand your point, but at the same time I would disagree that a few good experiences mean nothing. And I wouldn't say that the negative feedback on CCH is overwhelming.
A few thousand good experiences do mean something. its the only reason why the company is still here. I'm not saying that recent events leave no cause for concern, but to say that the 10+ years of goodwill prior to those incidents are meaningless is incorrect.
however, like many out there, I would like to see these concerns addressed, which frankly they have not been. Further, I'm not holding out much hope that they will be. Very disappointing.
But I'll continue to climb on my old aliens, because quite frankly, they're the best small cam going. I know because I've tried the rest. Oh yeah, I fell on an alien (two actually) last weekend and it held me, and when I sent some in to get tested they sent my cams back promptly. 
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brogant
May 4, 2007, 7:36 PM
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I was at the Reservoir Wall with Micah Dash last Sunday when this incident occurred. Micah started the thread over on Super Topo as a community service. He does not have the photos.
Micah asked Josh (the dude with the camera) to email him the photos as ssoon as he got home. If Micah's word isn't good enough for you, go over to Super Topo and ask Malcolm Daly about the photos. He saw them in camp that night. Anyone who knows anything, knows that Malcolm is a standup guy and his word is gold.
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aerili
May 4, 2007, 7:53 PM
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musicman1586 wrote: I think you fail to understand what is going on here. A cam should not pull apart at forces well below the manufacturer specs. If manufactured properly, which there are aliens out there that have been, they bottom line should not fail when used in the proper way. What has happened here is that cams have failed in situations that they should not have failed in, period, if they were built to the manufacturer specs, and so the problem is not that aliens are not fantastic units, all too many people believe they are the best, the problem lies in that these fantastic units are not being built as they should be.
Ditto. If a company can't get it's QC under control they will go under eventually. 80% of quality problems are caused by only 20% of the process steps, so what CCH needs to do is find the money to hire a Six Sigma Black Belt to overhaul their manufacturing process and pinpoint this 20% of errors.
Either that or find a Japanese company willing to buy them out and improve upon their original concept. 
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tomcat
May 4, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Bobreuf....how many Aliens would you guess are in use? And if we double the number of internet reports for good measure,what is the failure rate as we know it?You can pick the number in use.
Aliens pushed the envelope,maybe C3's will.It's a four cam unit with tiny parts.I would also say the braze connection is not the smallest of them,and should not be an issue.
I've owned three kinds of small cams,they are the first ones I really trust.In a they really stick in a placement way.I've fallen on most of mine and would not be strongly inclined to put all my cookies on any small cams I have used.
They may represent different things to different people,to me they are often gear where there was none before,I'll take that.
Mr Musicman...I do understand what's going on here.I manufacture a quality product in a diverse environment,I refer you to the same question.What is the failure rate,in terms of units in circulation and how does that compare to what you do?
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 11:14 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I'm not saying that recent events leave no cause for concern, but to say that the 10+ years of goodwill prior to those incidents are meaningless is incorrect.
Fair enough, you're right. I don't think any of this would be argued nearly as much if we were talking about Rock Empire cams. Alien's certainly earned their cult following. I love mine as much as the next guy. I'll be the first to concede that they place like no other cam.
tomcat wrote: Bobreuf....how many Aliens would you guess are in use? And if we double the number of internet reports for good measure,what is the failure rate as we know it?You can pick the number in use.
OK, if we went by your method, that would be 16 unreasonable failure in the last year or so. That's counting the misdrilled axle hole as just one, even though there were definitely more affected by that specific issue. This is also not counting the Aliens that failed when tested at Mgear at the start of Alien-gate. But let's be conservative and say that 50% of failures have been reported between here and supertaco, and double my lowball estimate to 16. Do you really think that's an acceptable # of failures? We're not talking about 10 kN rated pieces failing at 9kN either, we're talking about absurd failure modes. I'd also have to say that we're doing pretty good if half of the failures are reported. Hell, if half the people report back in a survey, you're doing pretty damn good. And considering that Supertaco and RC.com are based in the US, we're only talking about climbers who speak english for god's sake!
In reply to: Aliens pushed the envelope,maybe C3's will.It's a four cam unit with tiny parts.I would also say the braze connection is not the smallest of them,and should not be an issue.
Seems like you answered your own statement there, the tiny parts aren't related to the mode of failure here. In fact, most of the failure reports have been in the bigger sizes (i.e.- Orange, Purple). Alien parts are no smaller than TCU parts. Why isn't this expected failure rate occurring w/ Metolius cams? If somebody takes a MONSTEROUS whipper on one of the littlest buggers and it breaks, that would be a much more reasonable failure mode.
In reply to: I've owned three kinds of small cams,they are the first ones I really trust.
I'm glad that you've got a gut feeling that they're trust worthy, but in the end, your gut feeling isn't the standard I'd like to see these guys live up to.
Edited: spelling, formatting
(This post was edited by bobruef on May 5, 2007, 1:09 AM)
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schveety
May 5, 2007, 2:31 AM
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Pictures were just posted on the Souders Crack thread (RRG) (May 4) - I just thought I'd let people know in this thread in case they weren't checking on that thread as well............ Yellow alien
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tallmark515
May 5, 2007, 5:15 PM
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Links to pictures... (of the yellow alien failure).
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_5e142ac9ec658c471afd80a6e7e007fe.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_82ce45703350466bf710e324891a90c6.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_94e58a150e1b31c46ed602d2fa02e6d2.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_aba5a38d8ec4376268f2b9e21dd5ecb7.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_e5d9c269f5ccb3118b7c55f00c56be62.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b275/tennisplayer121/l_e544748490264250dbd84ec5b9a6e74a.jpg
That's some scary shit!
(This post was edited by tallmark515 on May 5, 2007, 5:58 PM)
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medicus
May 5, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Lol... I am watching both of these threads and the last two posts here just link me back... the last one made me laugh because it linked me to back to my post.
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scuclimber
May 5, 2007, 11:09 PM
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Helped ya out there.
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jakedatc
May 6, 2007, 11:39 PM
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hmmm ORDER UP!
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lubby
May 7, 2007, 9:44 PM
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Ok, as a user of newish and sent-back-and-tested aliens, is there an issue with mine? Has there been a failure of tested aliens (all post-recall cams are tested according to CCH).
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bobruef
May 7, 2007, 9:57 PM
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lubby wrote: Ok, as a user of newish and sent-back-and-tested aliens, is there an issue with mine? Has there been a failure of tested aliens (all post-recall cams are tested according to CCH).
The cam in this thread was stamped with a date of March 2007. That's post recall. Supposedly all cams post-recall were tested. This one seems not to have been. As I've articulated before, I would not trust CCH to test your cams, whether you buy them new, or send them in. As healyje pointed out, this cam's trip to the market was likely preceded by more than one inexcusable error. They're just letting too much get by them in there factory to be trustworthy as far as testing cams is concerned.
The Alien design is an incredible one though, and it looks like the climbing community at large is not ready to just toss their cams. There are currently discussions on the site looking into good methods for people to reliably test their own cams.
Best of luck,
Bob
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carabiner96
May 7, 2007, 10:03 PM
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A major climbing manufacturer company is in the process of designing their version of tha alien that will, and I quote: "Blow CCH out of business."
I was ready to buy some aliens, but hearing this from the rep and whats been happening lately, I can wait a few seasons for the new, better QC guys to come out.
ps I'm not naming the company b/c i'm not sure if this has been made public yet.
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basilisk
May 7, 2007, 11:56 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: ps I'm not naming the company
you, madam, are the devil.
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carabiner96
May 8, 2007, 12:13 AM
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basilisk wrote: carabiner96 wrote: ps I'm not naming the company you, madam, are the devil.
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gunkiemike
May 8, 2007, 12:27 AM
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Whatever else you might be thinking, it is clear that CCH has improved their act: they haven't accused anyone of a hoax in this latest go-round. (AFAIK)
Scary pics!!!!!!!!
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j_ung
May 8, 2007, 1:52 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: A major climbing manufacturer company is in the process of designing their version of tha alien that will, and I quote: "Blow CCH out of business." I was ready to buy some aliens, but hearing this from the rep and whats been happening lately, I can wait a few seasons for the new, better QC guys to come out. ps I'm not naming the company b/c i'm not sure if this has been made public yet.
So? Make it public. 
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carabiner96
May 8, 2007, 3:04 AM
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j_ung wrote: carabiner96 wrote: A major climbing manufacturer company is in the process of designing their version of tha alien that will, and I quote: "Blow CCH out of business." I was ready to buy some aliens, but hearing this from the rep and whats been happening lately, I can wait a few seasons for the new, better QC guys to come out. ps I'm not naming the company b/c i'm not sure if this has been made public yet. So? Make it public.
You have no idea, I want to so bad, it's that exciting! It'll be worth the wait though, I promise.
Meanwhile, totems, anyone?
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Smikey
May 9, 2007, 4:44 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: A major climbing manufacturer company is in the process of designing their version of tha alien that will, and I quote: "Blow CCH out of business." I was ready to buy some aliens, but hearing this from the rep and whats been happening lately, I can wait a few seasons for the new, better QC guys to come out. ps I'm not naming the company b/c i'm not sure if this has been made public yet.
Metolius, hafta wait and see.
(This post was edited by Smikey on May 9, 2007, 4:45 PM)
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notch
May 9, 2007, 5:06 PM
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Just out of curiosity, if you can't trust a company's initial quality control, why would you trust the quality control when you send one back to be checked? Unless the Aliens are checked by a third party, there is no reason to believe the test practices are any more rigid than the manufacturing practices. Anyone who posts, "I sent my Aliens back to CCH and they say everything is fine." ought to have his head examined. If you sent your cigarettes back to a tobacco company, they'd tell you they were safe too! Still wanna smoke?
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svilnit
May 9, 2007, 5:11 PM
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bobruef wrote: Oh, I almost forgot! [image]http://it.stlawu.edu/~tbudd/hiv200.jpg[/image] booyah!
Get out of the lab and climb!!!!
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maldaly
May 9, 2007, 5:17 PM
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Hi gang,
Here are the photos of the braze failure that Micah Dash witnessed. THis happened at the Reservoir Wall (IC) on 4/29. The climber wasn't hurt because he had another cam in about 2 feet down. There was about 50' of rope out when he fell. We may not hear from the owner of the cam. He was, according to Micah, "some 'euro dude".
Be safe out there...
Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on May 9, 2007, 5:19 PM)
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bobruef
May 9, 2007, 5:18 PM
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svilnit wrote: bobruef wrote: Oh, I almost forgot! [image]http://it.stlawu.edu/~tbudd/hiv200.jpg[/image] booyah! Get out of the lab and climb!!!!
ahh, you're so right my friend.
Too true, too true.
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j_ung
May 9, 2007, 5:24 PM
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maldaly wrote: Hi gang, Here are the photos of the braze failure that Micah Dash witnessed. THis happened at the Reservoir Wall (IC) on 4/29. The climber wasn't hurt because he had another cam in about 2 feet down. There was about 50' of rope out when he fell. We may not hear from the owner of the cam. He was, according to Micah, "some 'euro dude". Be safe out there... Mal
Thanks, Mal. And thanks to Micah, too. That certainly looks like the same type of failure as the recall cams. Is that a date stamp in the top pic? If so, I can't read it. Any idea?
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Dillbag
May 9, 2007, 5:28 PM
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No, there is no date stamped on that side of the trigger, it is located on the opposite side. (side in photo says CCH Alien)
It is possible that it was a recalled Alien, as "Micah said 'it was some euro dude'"
May not have heard of the recall to check for a dimple...
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boku
May 9, 2007, 6:19 PM
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dynosore wrote: Yeah, Sick Sigma will make it all better. Six Sigma BB = "I don't have any real skills"
"He doesn't know how to do anything. He just knows how to do things better."
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wideguy
May 9, 2007, 6:31 PM
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who was it that said recently ...
"I'd rather climb on a rack of slung water glasses than a rack of Aliens at this point."
I'm paraphrasing maybe, but damn, not much confidence in those at this point.
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granite_grrl
May 9, 2007, 6:39 PM
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I'm sure the Alien die-hards will continue to sing praises for a little while at least.
Down with the ship??
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j_ung
May 9, 2007, 6:43 PM
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wideguy wrote: who was it that said recently ... "I'd rather climb on a rack of slung water glasses than a rack of Aliens at this point." I'm paraphrasing maybe, but damn, not much confidence in those at this point.
That was me. Wine glasses. 
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taino
May 9, 2007, 6:44 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: I'm sure the Alien die-hards will continue to sing praises for a little while at least. Down with the ship??
I'm an Alien die-hard. I truly feel that they are head and shoulders above any other cam in their range, and fit where no other cam dares tread.
That said, I'll not be buying any new Aliens until 1) CCH is bought out by someone else and 2) the new owners show - publicly - that they are willing and able to do the proper QC.
I only hope that it happens soon. I can't stand the C3s, and Metolius cams make me feel dirty.
T
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wideguy
May 9, 2007, 6:45 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: I'm sure the Alien die-hards will continue to sing praises for a little while at least. Down with the ship??
The thing that gets me is the apparent Ostrich syndrome. "Until we see proof.... All these accusers and no pictures... "
You can still have faith and climb on them if you want, you can argue that it's a statistically small sample ... whatever. but stop insisting this is some sham conspiracy whatever. The pics are out there. A portion of these units, a frighteningly high portion IMHO, ARE failing in ways they shouldn't.
(This post was edited by wideguy on May 9, 2007, 6:47 PM)
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taino
May 9, 2007, 6:54 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: taino wrote: and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. Don't worry man, its like watching porno. You'll stop feeling dirty after a while and then you can just sit back and enjoy it.
*snort*
I ~like~ porn. I will ~never~ like those ridiculous dual-stem Metolius cams.
T
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j_ung
May 9, 2007, 7:01 PM
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HEY! My TCUs had an exhausting weekend of keeping my fat ass off the deck, and I'll thank you not to insult them.
Of five catches on one route  , the only one that wasn't caught by a TCU was held by a Power Cam!
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svilnit
May 9, 2007, 7:02 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: taino wrote: and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. Don't worry man, its like watching porno. You'll stop feeling dirty after a while and then you can just sit back and enjoy it.
Nice.... I'm going to use that next time my friends bust on my metolius rack
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taino
May 9, 2007, 7:08 PM
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j_ung wrote: HEY! My TCUs had an exhausting weekend of keeping my fat ass off the deck, and I'll thank you not to insult them. Of five catches on one route , the only one that wasn't caught by a TCU was held by a Power Cam!
Now, now, Jay... pick the panties out of your crack, and relax. I'm not saying that the Metolius cams aren't good - I'm saying that I can't stand the way they feel. Kinda like Astroglide rather than Vaseline - both work, but one feels much better.
T
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paulraphael
May 15, 2007, 2:38 AM
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Important question ... I haven't found a reliable answer to this:
Have any of the failures involved aliens stamped "Tested"?
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curt
May 15, 2007, 3:02 AM
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taino wrote: ...I only hope that it happens soon. I can't stand the C3s, and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. T
Hey Taino,
Just out of curiosity, what don't you like about the C3s? I was thinking about picking up a few (for obvious reasons) but I haven't used any of them yet.
Curt
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papounet
May 15, 2007, 4:08 AM
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taino wrote: I can't stand the C3s, and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. T
Try the zeros.
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 4:22 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: First of all the only real advantage for aliens is in the small sizes and off sets. You would have to be nuts to choose an orange alien over a red camalot. Now that The C3s and 4s are here the only reason to go with a standard alien is price. Buy a cheap piece of crap and take your chances or spend the big bucks... it's the way of the world. If you are an aid climber and have to use offsets its fine cause aid climbers are used to crap gear anyways
You clearly have absolutely no idea about what you are talking. A Red Camalot is closest to a Purple Alien. An Orange Alien is closest to a Green Camalot. If you do not know what you are talking about, and clearly YOU DO NOT, then do not pretend you do.
Secondly, there have been countless times in which I have tried to place a BD Camalot in a pockety spot in a crack and it would not fit no way no how and an Alien fit easily.
Too bad the quality control at Alien stinks. Too bad that the new BD C3s are complete pieces of shit too. I may have to check out Metolios gear. I no longer feel comfortable above an Alien. While I still carry them because they fit where nothing else will, I try to place a BD as soon as I can get one in a bomber placement.
On Aliens' website, I see that the send some units into a lab in Denver for testing. Does anyone know the name of the place or the name of another place that does this kind of work? I sent mine into Alien after the first recall and they tested them, but I aint feeling so reassured by that anymore.
(This post was edited by josephgdawson on May 15, 2007, 4:54 AM)
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 5:04 AM
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j_ung wrote: maldaly wrote: Hi gang, Here are the photos of the braze failure that Micah Dash witnessed. THis happened at the Reservoir Wall (IC) on 4/29. The climber wasn't hurt because he had another cam in about 2 feet down. There was about 50' of rope out when he fell. We may not hear from the owner of the cam. He was, according to Micah, "some 'euro dude". Be safe out there... Mal [IMG]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/maldaly/TempPhotos/AlienFail2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/maldaly/TempPhotos/AlienFail1.jpg[/IMG] Thanks, Mal. And thanks to Micah, too. That certainly looks like the same type of failure as the recall cams. Is that a date stamp in the top pic? If so, I can't read it. Any idea?
I just took a close look at the picture of the Purple Alien that failed, and I see the tigger wires are still attached. If this cam ate a fall and broke, then why did do the trigger wires still look fine?
On the failure of the yellow Alien, you can see that the entire stem came out, so it makes sense that the trigger wires were still intact.
So, unless the cable on the purple Alien came out and the Euro reinserted it for the photo, I do not see how the trigger wires are still intact. What do you think?
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zeke_sf
May 15, 2007, 5:18 AM
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josephgdawson wrote: Too bad the quality control at Alien stinks. Too bad that the new BD C3s are complete pieces of shit too.
Completely agree with the former. But why the C3 bashing? Not picking on you, man, but everybody seems completely disillusioned with them. I have the two largest sizes and I think they're fine. If you expect Aliens, they're different. If you expect an easy pull on the trigger, they don't. Maybe it's the overhype on BDs part, or the overpricing that pisses people off so bad. They could definitely do with a price reduction; to appease the pissed off masses if nothing else. I like having both 3 and 4 lobes as an option in my small cams. Apparently zeros will have to be that other option. Is there a recent picture of a green alien failure out there? That's the only one I own I haven't seen exploded, imploded, or fallen apart in some picture here lately.
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curt
May 15, 2007, 5:33 AM
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josephgdawson wrote: ...Too bad the quality control at Alien stinks. Too bad that the new BD C3s are complete pieces of shit too...
Same question I asked Taino: what is the problem with the C3s? Obviously, you have a strong opinion here, so hopefully you have some strong facts to back it up.
Curt
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curt
May 15, 2007, 5:53 AM
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the_leech wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Don't worry man, its like watching porno. You'll stop feeling dirty after a while and then you can just sit back and enjoy it. You've got it backwards. You can sit back and enjoy it for a while (about four minutes for me), but then feel all dirty after. But maybe the experience is different for chicks...
...or non-Catholics.
Curt
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norushnomore
May 15, 2007, 8:05 AM
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Curt, have no idea why people hate them, but I like them a lot and place them a lot.
And they do open up some new options not possible with aliens or other small cams
The only problem I have so far is the lack of the larger sizes like orange alien or purple c4
I protected OZ r rated first pitch start and reeds direct r rated last pitch with them to reduce r to a very comfy pg13 by finding places where only c3 would go.
This year they ended up been prime gear on the stoner's
and I even managed to place one on the off-width runout on the last pitch of Good Book: tiny zigzaging crack accepted a c3 at the point where it was changing it's direction (had to flip cam around as it would fit one way only)
And stiff spring is a big plus: cam stays planted
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taino
May 15, 2007, 2:12 PM
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curt wrote: taino wrote: ...I only hope that it happens soon. I can't stand the C3s, and Metolius cams make me feel dirty. T Hey Taino, Just out of curiosity, what don't you like about the C3s? I was thinking about picking up a few (for obvious reasons) but I haven't used any of them yet. Curt
Hi Curt,
FWIW, I think that the design of the C3s is very nice. There are a couple of construction issues that need to be addressed (one of the other AE guides had the springs getting twisted and stuck), but I haven't seen nor heard of too much of that. I prefer 4-lobe units to 3-lobe, but that's not enough to turn me off to them.
I just don't like the way they feel. The trigger pull is stiffer than any other cam I've ever used, including the Wild Country Tech Friends. You have to give an almighty squeeze to place these units, and I just don't like it. The thumb loop feels nice; the triggers feel nice... *shrug* Personal preference, I know, but I just don't like the trigger action.
Similarly, the Metolius cams - for me - are horrible. They're great cams, protect well, have a lighter pull - but the thumb positioning, for me, is completely awkward.
I guess I'll have to look at the Zeros again. I did, once, and turned them away; the trigger pull is still quite stiff, although not the feat of strength required for the C3s.
T
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 2:54 PM
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My problems with the BD C3s are the following and I will admit I have not used one, but I have asked people in the field who have them what they think, and I have not heard anything positive. Also, the market does not seem to have received them well, which indicates that for whatever reason, people just dont dig them.
To me the obvious shortcomings of the BD C3s are:
1. The stem is short. The long stems on Aliens make it possible to work the cams around in cracks and get them in some spots that would not be otherwise possible.
2. The plastic thing on the C3 stem is fat, which again is going to make it hard to wiggle around in those thin cracks for that perfect or only good placement. This is especially silly because the stem quickly gets thicker than the cam. That will prevent the cam from getting deeper into a crack where that bomber placement is. I am a huge fan of slotting my cam placements, especially on smaller cams, and that thick stem looks like a real impediment to that.
3. The stem looks fairly inflexible.
I had high hopes for the BD C3s especially since they came out shortly after the first widely publicized Alien failure, but they totally blew it. They may be bomber, but they just do not look like they will place that well. I would have rather seen them narrow the head on the four lobed micro cams.
On the positive side, the C3 cams themselves look good, manufacturing quality looks great, and the thumb loop is always a plus. Maybe they will make some other changes and do better on the next iteration.
It seems to me that Alien has the formula for small cams that place very well down. All someone has to do is copy it and add some qc and they will have a winning piece.
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tradmanclimbs
May 15, 2007, 3:00 PM
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hey, i have not used larger Aliens in several years so I don't know the exact conversions. i do know they look and feel cheesy compared to a real cam
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lumberzac
May 15, 2007, 3:52 PM
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Joseph, I had the same question when I saw those photos of the purple alien.
The conclusion I came to was this: on the purple alien, the brazed area mushrooms out a little where the braze came out of the head of the cam. This widened/mushroomed part of the braze looks too wide to pass through the hole in the upper-trigger bar (where the trigger wires are connected to the trigger mechanism).
So the mushroomed braze pops out of the head, but can't pass through the trigger mechanism, so it pulls the trigger down/pulls the trigger wires down, which retracts the lobes, and then POP, the whole piece comes out.
The Yellow Alien's Lobes/Head/Trigger Mechanism stayed in its placement because either the cable didn't have that mushroomed braze area and therefore was able to pass through the trigger mechanism.
This is just a guess, but it makes the most sense to me. What do you think?
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josephgdawson
May 15, 2007, 3:56 PM
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That sounds like a very plausible reason as to why the trigger wires were still intact on the Purple Alien. That must be a feature so users do not have to deal with the pesky task of cleaning a failed unit from the crack. 
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grayhghost
May 15, 2007, 4:10 PM
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Curt,
C3s are by far the best small cams you can buy. Josephgdawson will agree when he gets out on the sharp end, there is nothing as bomber as a C3. The stiff trigger/springs make the cam stay put.
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robdotcalm
May 15, 2007, 4:26 PM
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« I just don't like the way they feel. The trigger pull is stiffer than any other cam I've ever used, including the Wild Country Tech Friends. You have to give an almighty squeeze to place these units, and I just don't like it. »
What's the matter with you guys? Not taking your senior vitamins? I'm an old man with arthitic fingers and I don't have problems pulling the triggrs on the C3s. Especially when I'm scared and runnout on a thin crack.
cheers, rob.calm
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cellardoor
May 15, 2007, 6:53 PM
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so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater.
Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em.
Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
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waltereo
May 16, 2007, 4:02 AM
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cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
Hi,
When did you send your cams for testing ?
It is good to known that they tested at 1750lb for 1 inch or less and 2400lb for greater.
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carbonrx8
May 16, 2007, 4:13 AM
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cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right?
While I dont know much, my reading and interpretation of several recent posts in this thread and the Souder's crack thread is that one of the aliens that failed was marked "Tensile tested" as per a statement from Pinsandbones' friend. While this is still heresay, my remaining three aliens are relegated to duty whereby they are part of a static, redundant system. And even that sounds risky. So no. "shown good" would only quailfy if I saw or performed the test.
Please correct my interpretation if it is incorrect.
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dynoho
May 16, 2007, 4:18 AM
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waltereo wrote: cellardoor wrote: so i have a few aliens that all say tensile tested on them. I emailed cch to get exactly what that means and they said they pull test the braze to 1750lbs (8knish i think) for less than 1in and 2400lbs (10kn) for greater. Does that information help peoples faith? It seems the problem is in the brazing and that's what they test. I'm trying to evaluate how i think about 'em. Basically, sure the reports of the cables pulling out worries me, but given the test, i imagine i should interpret this as these pieces have been shown good right? Hi, When did you send your cams for testing ? It is good to known that they tested at 1750lb for 1 inch or less and 2400lb for greater.
Fish has posted some very scary results on supertopo. It seems like the braze just does not get the penetration that is required. I will let you draw your own conclusions.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=379659
-Jeff
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rhyang
May 16, 2007, 4:34 AM
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Apparently this particular unit was neither dimpled nor marked tensile-tested.
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