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difdclimber
Mar 1, 2008, 4:12 PM
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Hey everyone, Im 18 years old love climbing and love slack lining. I really want to know some tips on how to prevent injuries and if there are any ways to prevent arthritis? I boulder and try to rest 3 minutes between each route, i also take fish oil and flaxseed oil everyday. I just want some ways to prevent it if anyone knows. Thanks
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coastal_climber
Mar 1, 2008, 4:29 PM
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Over-use injuries are very common, be sure to have adequate rest days between doses of hard climbing. I've recently read about youth getting microfractures around their joints, due to their bones not being fully developed.
>Cam
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difdclimber
Mar 1, 2008, 4:32 PM
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Yeah i've read rest, good amounts of water, and just resting between routes. I just really want to be able to climb for as long as possible and am trying to start early on. Thanks for the tips anyone else keep them coming.
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onceahardman
Mar 1, 2008, 4:58 PM
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Good for you for thinking about your future...
As far as arthritis prevention, probably most important is genetics-pick your parents well.
Keep in mind, that as fun as bouldering is, every fall is a groundfall. They will add up.
Lots of people advocate stretching. Most modern research doesn't support stretching for injury prevention. To rehabilitate a healed structure which has tightened is fine, but overstretching leads to joint laxity, which leads to injury.
Stay strong. Strengthen your core. strengthen PROXIMAL muscle groups first. Hip extensors and flexors, rotator cuffs. Proximal stability helps distal mobility.
Keep your heart strong. If your heart and cardiovascular system stay strong, everything else works better.
Eat sensibly. Learn to do some research, and critical inquiry regarding the various additives out there which claim to eliminate arthritis and other health problems. Many (most?) are worthless.
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difdclimber
Mar 1, 2008, 11:19 PM
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Thanks guys. Yeah i'm trying to just stay fit i want to climb as long as i can. How old can climbers be? I know for sure into the 50's but do many see their 60's?
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coastal_climber
Mar 2, 2008, 5:36 AM
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There's a picture in an old Climbing Magazine and there's a dude that was 83 and still doing 10b on gear.
>Cam
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krosbakken
Mar 2, 2008, 6:05 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: There's a picture in an old Climbing Magazine and there's a dude that was 83 and still doing 10b on gear. >Cam
wow thats hard core right there. I hope I can climb that long. ha
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difdclimber
Mar 2, 2008, 11:55 PM
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thats awesome. well i guess i'll just need to keep my body in good shape.
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pyrosis
Mar 3, 2008, 12:07 AM
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I know a guy John in Bishop that redpointed his first 13a at age 70. Now he's 72 and climbs 13b. :)
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difdclimber
Mar 3, 2008, 4:08 AM
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pyrosis wrote: I know a guy John in Bishop that redpointed his first 13a at age 70. Now he's 72 and climbs 13b. :)
That's awesome. thanks for the inspiration/hope guys. right on
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ozoneclimber
Mar 3, 2008, 4:25 AM
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There was an issue of climbing a year or two ago that had an article on the guy who owns the world record for most FAs, I think that he is now in his nineties. BTW he doesn't use chalk and I think that he still climbs in his old hightop EBs. Lol.
I think that the main thing is knowing when to stop and take a break. I'm real bad about that and have tendon problems and I'm sure that my shoulder problems are going to get worse, although my line of work doesn't help much.
I love to boulder, but as far as physical longevity goes it's the worst thing for you. It is "tweeky" everything you do is highly strenuous and dynamic, so you're shocking your shoulders a lot. Most of the holds that you use are either slopey or crimpy, so you are going to be putting a ton of pressure on those tendons.
Take rest days, stretch, and grab a book on massage therapy, I've been told that it helps your muscles a lot if you massage between burns, and it has been helping me since I started it. Massaging breaks up the lactic acid that builds up when you get pumped. Lactic acid "blocks" O2 from getting to the muscles, hence muscle death/atrophy if you cut off circulation. Massage those forearms on your rest days.
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difdclimber
Mar 3, 2008, 1:56 PM
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^ hey thanks. a guy at the gym i climb at told me 3 minutes rest between each route gives enough time to cut down the lactic acid.
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difdclimber
Mar 4, 2008, 7:30 PM
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Anyone take fish oil and/or flax seed oil?
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patmay81
Mar 4, 2008, 8:08 PM
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fish oil?!!!! no, im pretty sure a cheap lager works way better!!!!
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miavzero
Mar 5, 2008, 6:34 AM
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lactic acid does not actually cause fatigue, it is fuel.
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difdclimber
Mar 14, 2008, 2:40 AM
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miavzero wrote: lactic acid does not actually cause fatigue, it is fuel.
Didn't know that thanks.
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HairSnakes
Mar 18, 2008, 3:16 AM
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miavzero wrote: lactic acid does not actually cause fatigue, it is fuel.
Lactic Acid is NOT fuel. It is a by-product of the anaerobic breakdown of glucose (aka fermentation). Your muscles cannot use lactic acid, and as the name suggests it is an ACID. Thus it lowers your blood pH. This causes acidosis and prevents your muscles from working (hence when your pumped you eventually fall). Lactic Acid builds up when there is not enough oxygen to supply your muscles for aerobic catabolism. Basically the demands of your muscles requires more energy than can be supplied by oxidative phosphorylation.
Also, the fatigue you feel is caused by calcium leaks in your muscles (may be related to lactic acid build-up). I don't feel like going into depth on this pathway or why it happens, just remember lactic acid is a climbers ENEMY!
"Speed is Forever" - Hans Florens
'Nuf Said
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hyhuu
Mar 18, 2008, 3:36 PM
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OK, who wants to start?
HairSnakes wrote: Lactic Acid is NOT fuel. It is a by-product of the anaerobic breakdown of glucose (aka fermentation). Your muscles cannot use lactic acid, and as the name suggests it is an ACID. Thus it lowers your blood pH. This causes acidosis and prevents your muscles from working (hence when your pumped you eventually fall). Lactic Acid builds up when there is not enough oxygen to supply your muscles for aerobic catabolism. Basically the demands of your muscles requires more energy than can be supplied by oxidative phosphorylation. Also, the fatigue you feel is caused by calcium leaks in your muscles (may be related to lactic acid build-up). I don't feel like going into depth on this pathway or why it happens, just remember lactic acid is a climbers ENEMY! "Speed is Forever" - Hans Florens 'Nuf Said |
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crimpandgo
Mar 18, 2008, 3:45 PM
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hyhuu wrote: OK, who wants to start? HairSnakes wrote: Lactic Acid is NOT fuel. It is a by-product of the anaerobic breakdown of glucose (aka fermentation). Your muscles cannot use lactic acid, and as the name suggests it is an ACID. Thus it lowers your blood pH. This causes acidosis and prevents your muscles from working (hence when your pumped you eventually fall). Lactic Acid builds up when there is not enough oxygen to supply your muscles for aerobic catabolism. Basically the demands of your muscles requires more energy than can be supplied by oxidative phosphorylation. Also, the fatigue you feel is caused by calcium leaks in your muscles (may be related to lactic acid build-up). I don't feel like going into depth on this pathway or why it happens, just remember lactic acid is a climbers ENEMY! "Speed is Forever" - Hans Florens 'Nuf Said
Oh, no,, please DONT :) 
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onceahardman
Mar 18, 2008, 8:46 PM
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OK, I'll take it...
HairSnakes, you almost sound like you know what you are talking about...
By the way, who is "Hans Florens"?
anyway, this quote:
In reply to: Another misconception is that lactate is responsible for acidifying the blood, thereby causing fatigue. To the contrary, lactate is actually an important fuel that is used by the muscles during prolonged exercise.
is from this paper:
http://www.time-to-run.com/theabc/lactic.htm
but if you just google "lactic acid exercise physiology", you will get 1000s of relevant hits.
or, any exercise physiology textbook written in the past 15 years should be helpful as well.
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irregularpanda
Mar 18, 2008, 9:37 PM
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onceahardman wrote: OK, I'll take it... HairSnakes, you almost sound like you know what you are talking about... By the way, who is "Hans Florens"? anyway, this quote: In reply to: Another misconception is that lactate is responsible for acidifying the blood, thereby causing fatigue. To the contrary, lactate is actually an important fuel that is used by the muscles during prolonged exercise. is from this paper: http://www.time-to-run.com/theabc/lactic.htm but if you just google "lactic acid exercise physiology", you will get 1000s of relevant hits. or, any exercise physiology textbook written in the past 15 years should be helpful as well.
*sigh*
but if you had actually taken a biochemistry course as I believe hairsnakes has, you will understand that lactic acid IS NOT FUEL, it is a by-product of anaerobic (sans oxygen) cellular respiration. Ever felt "pumped"? That's lactate/lactic acid. (which as hairsnakes mentioned may be related to calcium ion release in the muscle)
The statement about lactate as a misnomer is correct, however. The thing is that there are so many free protons (hydrogen) floating around in the cells and blood that as soon as lactate is release, it gets protonated and becomes lactic acid. Instantly.
The (very interesting and complicated) gluconeogenesis pathway that is skimmed over in the article addresses the creation of glucose on the liver (gluconeogenesis). This takes a long time, hence the article being about runners and their legs, not climbers and their forearms. Gluconeogenesis takes time. I believe this article (while correct in ways) is geared towards marathon runners and ultra marathon runners. it is also written for the layman, not the biochemist.
Good info for runners, though. I'm not flaming, I just have time on my hands.
edited because I can't spell when I drink coffee.
Also edited because maybe you did take a biochem course: I don't want to sound like an expert or a condescending prick.
(This post was edited by irregularpanda on Mar 18, 2008, 10:04 PM)
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onceahardman
Mar 18, 2008, 10:31 PM
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panda, there is no need for the condescending "sigh"...and I HAVE taken biochem, and lots of physiology.
(whoops, I see you have edited, sorry for the abrasive tone)
Lactic acid is the end product of glycolysis, which then DISsociates to lactate + H+ in the blood or intracellular fluid. Evidenced by blood tests for LACTATE, not for lactic acid. Oxidative phosphorylation quickly uses lactate for energy. To say lactate is not fuel is simply wrong, lactate is even produced at rest.
I try not to bore the relative laypeople with endless lists of links that hardly anybody reads. Then the endless criticisms..."It's not peer-reviewed"..."That publication is a rag"...etc. If you could show me a reference for the long-term existence of blood lactic acid, I'd be happy to read it. Meanwhile, here is something supporting my points:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/lactic-acid.html
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gobias
Mar 18, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Anybody who took some biology have time to explain this? Most of the article were things I've heard, but not this.
as running speed is increased, a point is reached at which there is insufficient oxygen available to the muscle and energy sources that do not require oxygen contribute to the energy that is needed. This results in a disproportionate increase in the blood lactate concentration, a point identified as the anaerobic threshold. This is also known as the lactate threshold..... Firstly, the muscle never becomes anaerobic: there are other reasons for the supposed disproportionate increase
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gobias
Mar 18, 2008, 10:43 PM
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Nevermind, that link just posted helps.
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irregularpanda
Mar 18, 2008, 10:50 PM
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onceahardman wrote: If you could show me a reference for the long-term existence of blood lactic acid, I'd be happy to read it.
I'd be glad to read it, even if it ain't peer reviewed 
But, I have class today, and I will do that later. Ugh, the idea of reviewing old biochem lectures and reading from 2 years ago, right before spring break (claps hands, shouting yay!)
Which biochem text did you use BTW? I used Lehningers principles of biochemistry.
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aerili
Mar 19, 2008, 2:05 AM
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As onceahardman said, there is no such thing as lactic acid in the blood, only lactate.
As for lactate being a fuel, yes it is. We've known this for years. During aerobic metabolism, the lactate is cleared as it is produced--eaten up by the liver, heart, and inactive muscle tissue as fuel. However, once lactate is being produced faster than it can be cleared (as work intensity begins to become primarily glycolytic, or carb-fueled), is around the same window when people begin to experience fatigue that will prevent them from sustaining their intensity. So we know that there is a definite correlation between rise in lactate and a rise in fatigue.
The theory that rising lactate does not have anything to do with fatigue is not 100% proven. So saying it absolutely isn't related is not a universally accepted theory.
I talked to three exercise physiologists (Dr. Joseph Weir, Dr. Jared Coburn, and Dr. Daniel Judelson) recently who were informing me more thoroughly of this issue. Apparently, most studies originally done that linked lactate to muscular mechanical fatigue were done with a muscle removed from the body and tested at room temperatures. Plus there are tons and tons of studies showing that lactate threshold DOES occur just before or after anaerobic threshold, analyzed through blood draws on an actual, exercising subject with subject's working intensity being controlled by the researchers as well.
However, they've also now done studies on people and had the set up like this: subject exercising below anaerobic threshold, lactacte production is therefore being cleared at the same rate for a net accumulation of zero in the bloodstream. They then introduce an outside source of lactate and flood it into a muscle group of the subject's. No reduction in effort occurs, no fatigue sets in.
Why? They don't really know. It's possible that lactate has a totally different effect on muscle action under body temperature vs room temperature.
Theories for what else could cause fatigue include things like:
* Tim Noakes' Central Governor Model (not very accepted by most of his peers)
* Accumulation of other metabolites that rise at the same time lactate does: these include things like inorganic phosphate and ammonia
* Extracellular potassium accumulation
* Substrate depletion which leads to decreased ATP production
* Myofibrillar fatigue -- occurs independent of metabolite accumulation or muscle activation
"...fatigue is not the consequence of a single omnipresent mechanism but rather can be induced by a variety of mechanisms." (Enoka and Stuart, JAP, 1992)
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roy_hinkley_jr
Mar 19, 2008, 2:23 AM
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onceahardman wrote: I try not to bore the relative laypeople with endless lists of links that hardly anybody reads.
You really should never fear posting good info. There are more people than you realize who are deeply interested in real science versus most of the BS on this forum. Some of us heart PubMed ;-)
Yep, lactic acid burn has been thoroughly debunked. And even whether there is a lactate threshold is pretty dubious...that term will likely fall out of favor just as anaerobic threshold did. But old myths die hard so they'll keep coming up like microfractures.
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HairSnakes
Mar 19, 2008, 2:32 AM
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ok, for starters, I typoed the guys name its Hans Florine, hope that rings a better bell. As for the rest...
Lets start with a quote from your article hardman.
(bolds added to draw your attention to important highlights)
"Only relatively short, very intense activity causes lactc acid to accumulate. Lactic acid is not thought to be a contributor to fatigue in low-moderate intensity activity of any duration."
Now what is climbing (especially during hard moves where we feel pumped), shall we call it short and very intense?
Next, "Acidosis is thought to be a primary factor in muscular fatigue and is based on a good deal of research."
"Lactic acid or lactate ‘pooling’ is not the cause of delayed muscle soreness." I believe I addressed this one with the calcium leaks.
So what have we seen here? Acidosis, which is partially caused by lactic acid, is responsible for fatigue. We already know that the muscles cannot operate under acidic conditions. We've also learned that during hard climbing we do get our little friend lactic acid build-up, and lastly, another quote to discuss "A common misinterpretation is that blood lactate or even lactic acid, has a direct detrimental effect on muscle performance. However, most researchers agree that any negative effect on performance associated with blood lactate accumulation is due to an increase in hydrogen ions. When lactic acid dissociates it forms lactate and hydrogen ions - which leads to an increase in acidity. So it is not accurate to blame either lactate or lactic acid for having a direct negative impact on muscular performance."
Sorry to rain on your parade, but didn't they just say that Lactic Acid dissociates to lactate and hydrogen ions and these hydrogen ions causes increased blood acidity, which leads to acidosis and fatigue. But lets not blame the production of Lactic Acid for this.
Whatever, if I throw a rock at you while your climbing and you jump off to avoid it who's to blame for you not flashing the route? I believe we all would agree that since I threw the rock I caused the fall; and while I would never be part of such an action I do believe it parallels the argument that lactic acid is responsible for blood acidosis (for if there wasn't lactic acid, hydrogen ions wouldn't dissociate to causes increased blood acidity).
As to lactate as direct fuel, your body takes lactate and turns it back into glucose before use. A process as mentioned by panda, done in the liver (not your arms).
Anyway, this argument seems to be off topic for this current thread, so I'm going to stop now.
Have Fun, climb hard, enjoy life!
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onceahardman
Mar 19, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Hi hairsnakes...
Sorry to bust on you for misspelling Hans' name. He's a hero of mine, too.
The quotes you selected were a bit...selective. In the second paper I linked, read the section about Lactic Acidosis. There is some research ( Robergs et. al., #19 footnote) which seems to show increased lactate actually increases clearance of H+.
But my main point was to refute your statement about lactate not being fuel.
Thanks Aerili, for your insight. Always nice to hear from you.
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hyhuu
Mar 19, 2008, 1:35 PM
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From what I understand, lactate is used as fuel at the muscle. It's the excess that dumped into blood stream then used by the liver and other organs.
Lactic acid can also be very good for you. Unless you don't like yogurt, cheese, beer etc.
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