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climbaddic
Oct 17, 2008, 4:36 AM
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salamanizer wrote: Ooh, I'd also like to endorce the clicky map thingy.
I have actually done some programming with Google Map's Popup, Pinpoint and Clicky things people are talking about on this forum. The problem isn't writing the code, but hard to find GPS coordinate to use Google map's API. Sure, you can convert street address into GPS coordinates, but it is hard to get GPS coordinates from go about 5 minutes and turn right at the white fence. I think if we all spend some time updating GPS coordinates, rc.com get make maps clicky.
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petsfed
Oct 17, 2008, 4:53 AM
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Mostly I'd like it to be a little bit more wiki like it used to be. Better support for beta, and discussion possible on each route, again a la mp.com.
Statistics for each crag would be handy too. For instance, how many of us has visited it lately, most common ascent type, most popular route, primary protection scheme (based on route descriptions), what's new, what's good, etc.
And while there are some issues that we can't just open up the slavering hordes (area-wide reorganization, for instance), can we at least require the area managers to move in a more timely fashion?
Just a pie-in-the-sky suggestion, but if there's a way to generate a consensus rack for each route (maybe a checkbox-form or something) as well as for ratings, that would be nice. For a lot of the routes that I've done, only the first pitch is commonly done, leading to incredibly strange consensus grades, especially when the first pitch is like 5.7, but the third pitch is 11c or something. If there's a way to generate consensus grades that differentiate between pitches, that would be pretty neat too.
Mostly though, comments on the route should take center stage, as opposed to our incredibly useless tick system. I love the graphs, especially the progression curves, but the ascents aren't much good info-wise at the moment.
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j_ung
Oct 17, 2008, 2:59 PM
Post #28 of 123
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I can see this thread is going to invaluable.
Let's try this, though:
Point me to a good example of a really bad RDB entry -- maybe find something where freaking everything is terrible, the route, the section, the area... and then run down a brief, undetailed list of what's wrong and what kind of functionality could improve it.
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sungam
Oct 17, 2008, 3:00 PM
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salamanizer wrote: How about the ability to give certain people (who ask permission first) the ability to go in and change, delete, re-arrange and otherwise clean up areas that they are really familiar with?
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j_ung
Oct 17, 2008, 3:03 PM
Post #30 of 123
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climbaddic wrote: salamanizer wrote: Ooh, I'd also like to endorce the clicky map thingy. I have actually done some programming with Google Map's Popup, Pinpoint and Clicky things people are talking about on this forum. The problem isn't writing the code, but hard to find GPS coordinate to use Google map's API. Sure, you can convert street address into GPS coordinates, but it is hard to get GPS coordinates from go about 5 minutes and turn right at the white fence. I think if we all spend some time updating GPS coordinates, rc.com get make maps clicky.
This is not a deal breaker. I know it'll take a lot of work, possibly even a shout out to users for some help, but it's one of my personal biggies. (NO PROMISES, but another big project for the future might be to create an RC.com mobile version. If we do that, I really want to be able to find crags with my iPhone.) And actually, RC.com may already have something usable. If you enter an event into the Calendar, you get an adjustable map, so you can position a "push pin" on the venue site. One of those for every area -- and even section -- but editable for wiki-style adjustments, could prove easier than we think. We may already have the code for it.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 17, 2008, 3:53 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Biggest improvement I could see would be a point and click map to help locate areas in addition to the current method of organization. Truthfully I have a hard time finding areas that are almost in my own backyard the way they're organized right now.
The people have spoken! Give us the Clicky Maps, or Give Us Dethz!
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 17, 2008, 3:55 PM
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sungam wrote: salamanizer wrote: How about the ability to give certain people (who ask permission first) the ability to go in and change, delete, re-arrange and otherwise clean up areas that they are really familiar with? It's called becoming the area manager?
Good point. Another thing MP has and I think really helps.
I would like to put in my formal request to be the area manager for The Gunks.
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fritzski
Oct 17, 2008, 3:58 PM
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The old format used to have some distinct advantages. I could make a printout that would show an entire small crag on a few sheets of paper to take with me. Now you only get one climb per page. MountainProject has a nice "printer friendly" button you can click on.
I also used to be able to order the routes correctly, now only the moderator can do it and sometimes they've never even been to that particular crag.
I also used to like to see what was "new or updated" at my local crags, now it takes you right to the particular crag, but doesn't show you what exactly someone has climbed or what the new update is.
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dingus
Oct 17, 2008, 4:24 PM
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j_ung wrote: I'm at the very beginning of the process of making improvements to the Route Database, namely collecting feedback. I'll also consult a lot of other folks, including DDT, sangiro, Tim (where the hell is Tim?), and the Gossamer developers. This will be a long process involving research, budget concerns and, I'm sure, plenty of frustration on my part. But hey, we have to start somewhere, so what say we get crackin' with a good old fashioned free-wheeling brainstorm? Let me hear what you think of RC.com's RDB. Nothing is off limits. Nothing is out of the question. What works for you? What doesn't? What functionality do you think should stay? What should go? What should we add? PS - I know this is the wrong forum, but I feel it needs front-page billing. I'll move it to S&F further down the road. I'm signing off for the evening, BTW. I'll check back in tomorrow.
Here's my input
RC.com does not own the information submitted. It should be just as easy for the OWNER of the info to delete it as it is add it. Any revenues derived from the routes db should be shared amongst the contriibutors. Photos and TRs should NOT be REQUIRED to be linked to a FOR PROFIT website routes database. RC.com should take a Summitpost.com approach to freely submitted information - it is the HOST, not the OWNER of the data and MUST SEEK PERMISSION to do ANYTHING with that data other than what the contributor expressly agreed to upon submission. The work MAY NOT BE SOLD. Period.
Anything less than this is theft.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 17, 2008, 4:25 PM)
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clausti
Oct 17, 2008, 4:32 PM
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The duplications and completely random route order are a pain in the ass.
and, to add insult to injury, it is a HUGE pain in the ass to go in and try and fix it if you want to clean up a crag's info- because you have to go edit each route. and then, if someone wants to add one in between the ones that are there, they then have to go in and edit either every route before or every route after it.
Solution: be able to edit the crag, with a move up move down or click and drag functionality to put routes where they go. Then you can go in and edit ONCE, not 20 times.
Repeat this for every division. If there are multiple walls at a crag, be able to put them in order.
But also, duplications suckazz.
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k.l.k
Oct 17, 2008, 4:36 PM
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For what it's worth, if I want online info for the US I go to MP. If I want an area/country that isn't at MP I go to SP or one of the dedicated local sites.
If this is the first step toward convertin rcom into a serious online guidebook, then I'd think of what you want the real end result to look like (a cheaper subscription version of ST?) and then do it in steps. Otherwise you'll end up with a crummier version of SP.
(www.bergsteigen.at has probably the best online area/route database I've seen, although it makes no attempt to be comprehensive.)
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cracklover
Oct 17, 2008, 4:37 PM
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Thanks for asking, j_ung!
I'll try to be organized, and give examples where possible.
1 - Everything A_B said.
2 - Related to the Routes Pages themselves:
2.A - Arranging climbing areas per state logically, and in a standardized way. Right now it's willy-nilly.
Example: NH is organized by county. Who the fuck knows what county is what in another state? I don't even know in the state I live!
2.B - One or two mid-size pics for each climb on that climb's page. The ones selected should be the highest rated pics. As is, it shows the most recently submitted photos, which may be crap. And even if they're good, they're typically too small to see a damn thing about what the climb looks like.
2.C - If you're going to order routes (say left to right) then "Routes in this Section" (see the left side of the page) should put the routes in the same order. Instead they appear to be alphabetical.
2.D - "Routes in this Section" should display all the routes. In areas with too many routes, it cuts them off. Example - look at the Gunks - Trapps. It has A through B - useless.
3 - Related to the User Ascent Log
3.A - Ability to mark a climb you've done as having been aided or led free, with the different grade showing up appropriately in your Ascent Log.
Example: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...The_Prow__20957.html
3.B - Separate graphs in the Log for trad and sport.
3.C - Rope solo should be an ascent style. Lumping this in with free soloing makes no logical sense.
4 - Related to photos (Mentioned this one in the other thread). Force pictures with routes in them to be linked to the routes DB. I'm often inspired by beautiful looking lines. So if I go somewhere new, I like to look for gems. More and more of those gems are now completely hidden. Just a few recent examples:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/.../Far_Out_101071.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...s_Valley_101979.html
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...lo_Malta_101011.html
Is that enough to chew on for now? I could provide plenty more!
And some positive feedback - I agree that the ascent log graph is very cool.
GO
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clausti
Oct 17, 2008, 4:49 PM
Post #38 of 123
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cracklover wrote: Thanks for asking, j_ung! 2.D - "Routes in this Section" should display all the routes. In areas with too many routes, it cuts them off. Example - look at the Gunks - Trapps. It has A through B - useless.
for the Gunks, which has very unusually long, linear crags, why not break it up based on linear sections of crag? 100 routes at a time? 50 routes at a time?
edited to say, this is the kind of thing where individual areas need a little local love. places like squamish, which is HIGHLY nonlinear, but more staggered tiers, is not going to work like someplace like the gunks, which is mostly two huge linear crags. Intelligent divisions!
(This post was edited by clausti on Oct 17, 2008, 4:50 PM)
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j_ung
Oct 17, 2008, 4:53 PM
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dingus wrote: Here's my input RC.com does not own the information submitted. It should be just as easy for the OWNER of the info to delete it as it is add it. Any revenues derived from the routes db should be shared amongst the contriibutors. Photos and TRs should NOT be REQUIRED to be linked to a FOR PROFIT website routes database. RC.com should take a Summitpost.com approach to freely submitted information - it is the HOST, not the OWNER of the data and MUST SEEK PERMISSION to do ANYTHING with that data other than what the contributor expressly agreed to upon submission. The work MAY NOT BE SOLD. Period. Anything less than this is theft. DMT
These are likewise issues I already have in mind, but unfortunately, I don't have a lot of answers to them yet. As I said, this is a first step in what will be a long strange trip. Regardless, thank you very much for bringing some pretty important issues to light.
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wonderwoman
Oct 17, 2008, 5:10 PM
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elvislegs wrote: i can't remember but i don't think there's an ascent option for longer routes which allows you to mark a route as 'followed' or 'swapped leads'. it's not a big deal, and you can always say it in the comments, but top-rope and redpoint are more cragging terms. long routes are special.
I like these suggestions, and also would like to throw 'whipper' or 'fall' into the mix. I hate having to categorize taking falls as 'hangdogging'. It's so undignified.
salamanizer wrote: How about the ability to give certain people (who ask permission first) the ability to go in and change, delete, re-arrange and otherwise clean up areas that they are really familiar with? As it is, you have to submit the change you wish to add via PM then wait weeks for it to take effect. Usually, I don't even bother because explaining a simple change to someone is not always that simple.
I'll second the suggestion to make areas easier to edit. There is one area that I am familiar with that has a local family that allows camping on their land for cheap. They are a little quirky but really nice. The area description says not to count on camping there and seems to have had a bad experience with the Camara's. The last time I was there, Joanne said they weren't getting any campers. I want to change the area description and feel like this is a sad injustice to a family who is nice enough to let people camp on their land for $8/night. Just so you can see what I mean:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...afton_County/Rumney/
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cracklover
Oct 17, 2008, 5:13 PM
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clausti wrote: cracklover wrote: Thanks for asking, j_ung! 2.D - "Routes in this Section" should display all the routes. In areas with too many routes, it cuts them off. Example - look at the Gunks - Trapps. It has A through B - useless. for the Gunks, which has very unusually long, linear crags, why not break it up based on linear sections of crag? 100 routes at a time? 50 routes at a time? edited to say, this is the kind of thing where individual areas need a little local love. places like squamish, which is HIGHLY nonlinear, but more staggered tiers, is not going to work like someplace like the gunks, which is mostly two huge linear crags. Intelligent divisions!
I agree that intelligent divisions of large crags is probably the best of several potential solution to this problem (e.g. Mac Wall, High E area, etc).
Edited to add: But even if you do break up crags into sub-crags, you still need to insure that some of the climbs won't get cut off. Just increase the number of climbs that can be listed down the left side of the page to a very large number.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Oct 17, 2008, 5:19 PM)
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Zerogeist
Oct 17, 2008, 11:33 PM
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just my 2 cents, try to get something going with the guys over at mountainproject.com they already have an extremely powerful database but without the user support to make it truly great.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 17, 2008, 11:42 PM
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Zerogeist wrote: just my 2 cents, try to get something going with the guys over at mountainproject.com they already have an extremely powerful database but without the user support to make it truly great.
Must be a regional thing - although I could continue in suggesting that you're as much to blame as anyone. Regardless, that's not my take on MP at all.
I was going to add it earlier, but didn't want to add any negatives as I think it's great that J_ung is pushing this. But since it applies to your post:
I don't think I'd switch over to here regardless, at least, not while I'm living where I am. I spend a lot of my rock time at Joshua Tree, and the DB over there is fantastic. There is a SHIT-TON (metric) of info on Jtree there. There are several first ascentionists that regularly chime in with beta or comments, and a ton of people that know a helluva lot about the place. Granted, most areas aren't done to that quality, but again, you have the power to change that. If the DB is missing something for an area I frequent I put the damn info in myself, that's how it gets good in the first place. And perhaps you do, in which case this doesn't apply to you. But people often seem to complain about the databases lacking info or missing this or that, yet don't contribute.
(This post was edited by Arrogant_Bastard on Oct 17, 2008, 11:47 PM)
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Zerogeist
Oct 18, 2008, 12:29 AM
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i should rephrase,
it doesn't have the same type/volume of user activity as rc.com, and if it did, it would be 100x more useful then it currently is (which is still in all respects, useful)
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 20, 2008, 3:34 PM
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Add in a slot to enter which direction the route faces and/or sun exposure.
Oh and get rid of that stupid Exposure, Rock Quality, Scenery, Fun Factor rating system. Just one rating 0-5 stars should suffice.
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epoch
Moderator
Oct 20, 2008, 3:49 PM
Post #46 of 123
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Stickied.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 20, 2008, 3:50 PM
Post #47 of 123
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JEOYK?
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2008, 6:11 PM
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FYI, I've compiled a master list, which includes the vast majority of these suggestions but not all of them, and more to boot from my own list. That list then went onto a master plan of really big initiatives, which I'm presenting this week in Boston. Operation RDB, as I'm calling it, is number three on that list.
Thanks for your input, everybody. Feel free to keep ideas coming as you have therm.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 20, 2008, 6:25 PM
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j_ung wrote: Operation RDB, as I'm calling it, is number three on that list.
I think Operation: A_B Destroys the Infidels had a better ring to it, but if you think RDB will sell it, fine.
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cracklover
Oct 20, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Are you interested in any discussion on the "not all of them" ones?
GO
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