Yeah. I had my suspicions. I finished up my routes, went home, peed on a stick and said, "i'm in for it..."

We are lucky to live where there is lots of real rock to climb within 15 min. of our house and even more rock to climb within 1 hour.

One thing I will never understand is how women can be so cruel to each other. I was dating a girl recently and I was shocked at how mean her friends were to each other. How much drama there was that I just didn't understand.

I suppose my thoughts at reading this thread were the same. What's the problem? People have kids, they tone things down. I doubt there are many guys who do the same sort of climbing that they do after they have kids as before. They have responsibilities just the same as women.

Most of the men who I climb with who have kids have many times told me that they couldn't climb a specific day because they WANT to spend it with their family. They take their kids out hiking and climbing instead.

I have never had a female partner who has kids, however I have certainly seen quite a few women bring their toddlers to the gym and I can only assume that they do the same when they do real climbing.

So ultimately I'm just not seeing it. It must be there somehow because there are obviously tensions but in our day and age, it just doesn't make sense to me.

One thing I will never understand is how women can be so cruel to each other. I was dating a girl recently and I was shocked at how mean her friends were to each other. How much drama there was that I just didn't understand..

I suppose my thoughts at reading this thread were the same. What's the problem? People have kids, they tone things down. I doubt there are many guys who do the same sort of climbing that they do after they have kids as before. They have responsibilities just the same as women.

I have never had a female partner who has kids, however I have certainly seen quite a few women bring their toddlers to the gym and I can only assume that they do the same when they do real climbing..

Sadly, this tends to be true, and it is why I always preferred working with Men rather than with women. I had a much nicer and better time working with them, women do tend to cause more trouble in comparison. Small wonder why most my friends are male.

I think I said the same thing earlier. I don't understand it either, but women judge other women more than men do. I have a lot of speculative explanations for it, but...

I don't know. I wouldn't write women off. Most of my closest friends are girls, and there are no bitchiness or cruelty in our friendships. We are so close that I feel like they are closer than just friends--like family. I wouldn't be climbing if one of those friends didn't introduce me to climbing. Sure, there are some bitchy ones out there, but for the most part, I think girls rock! Besides, I really like not having to deal with weird sexual tension or the crazy girlfriend/spouse factor.

I also disagree with this blanket statement about women being cruel. I think a failure to find meaningful and supportive relationships with other women deserves a little self reflection rather than condemnation.

I happen to think I'm a really nice person, you beeotches!

I think I said the same thing earlier. I don't understand it either, but women judge other women more than men do. I have a lot of speculative explanations for it, but...



The "problem" is that men don't give up as much, and don't FEEL that they have to give up much, that women have to sacrifice more -- at least when viewed from the woman's perspective.

Whether this is a real imbalance, or merely a perceived and biased one, is at the heart of this argument.

Obviously Susan (and many other women) believe that there is a disparity IN GENERAL, even if they found ways to solve the situation to their satisfaction in their own relationship, or found ways to live with the situation they have and accept it.

All men that have replied so far to this thread say that there IS no imbalance. Both men and women give up things and compromize for the sake of their children, so women should stop whining.

I don't know if this is in any way reminiscent of the while people saying that there is no racial discrimination now, and minorities should stop complaining, but this was one analogy that came to mind.

And finally, there is a group of 3 women who say that they won't allow this sort of discrimination to happen to them, they and their partners are beyond it, they have the solutions (to the problem they are yet to encounter personally), they won't have to sacrifice much of anything when they have kids, anyway, and anyone who complains has dug her own hole and is a bad example to all the other young women out there, but is NOT at all representative of what most women go through in some way.


Why don't you ask them? A very unscientific survey, but:

-- how many GUYS bring their toddlers to the gym? (without the wife being there). What percentage of guys who have kids bring their kids to the gym, vs. percentage of women with kids who bring their kids to the gym?

- what percentage of women who climb at the gym have kids? What percentage of men who climb at the gym have kids? Is that percentage significanlty different between males and females?

-- how many of those mother climbers who come to the gym actually GO outside climbing? And how often? with kids? without kids? Ask the same questions of the guys-- are the percentages the same? Are the frequencies of "outside" trips the same? Are the frequency of the GYM visits the same between males who have kids, and females who have kids?

I have a very good idea of what the answers are going to be, but why don't you find out for yourself?

I don't think I've seen any women here who have said their husbands go out climbing every weekend while they're stuck nursing the kid at home.

i don't think the thesis is so much "all women are cruel" as it is "women judge one another more than men judge women".

in my experience, this seems to be true. women care more about how other women look, who is a slut, who is a "bad mom", who has a clean house, ect. Do men care if women have smudged eyeliner? Do men call a girl a slut for sleeping with one guy? (some do, but who is going to go to the trouble to start a rumor- that would be a jealous woman). Who talks about what women are feeding their kids and who is organic enough? men or women? Who fights more about who is a "real" feminist, men or women? Who criticizes women for staying home with their kids, men or women? Who criticizes women for having abortions more, men or women?

for the record, i know several guys who still go climbing (not as much but they still get to go outside a couple times a month) whereas their wives, who climbed before, NEVER get to go out.

lena_chita was the first woman i'd ever met who had kids and still climbed even close to what her husband did.

and my problem with the article was not that i don't think the author's situation ever happens and not that i think she's a "weak" woman or something for being in that situation, but that i was angry that it was presented as *inevitable* and the way things *SHALL BE* when you have kids. i object to being told how my life is gonna go by someone who doesn't know me and is making sweeping assumptions. And it was to me, personally. It was to me and to every female climber out there who is thinking about having kids.

To me, and I think to some other people, acceptance of the inevitability of inequality is tantamount to complicity in inequality. And to be told "oh you will too" just blows my fuse.

I do have one question though. Do your friends who have children envious of their husbands who are climbing more or are they climbing as much as they want? If the answer is the first, then they have no one to blame but themselves. I have yet to be in a relationship when the woman has not ultimately gotten her way, in just about everything ;)

well, if you weren't getting your way, then you have no one to blame but yourself, now, do you?

I do have one question though. Do your friends who have children envious of their husbands who are climbing more or are they climbing as much as they want? If the answer is the first, then they have no one to blame but themselves. I have yet to be in a relationship when the woman has not ultimately gotten her way, in just about everything ;)

I know the article gives reasons why they can't climb as much but I just don't buy into it. This is the 21st century afterall....

They usually make better choices than me anyhow ;)

Although, the senario always seams to go something like this:

her: You pick where to go for dinner.
me: Indian?
her: No.
me: Itallian?
her: No.
me: Chinese?
her: No.
me: Brew pub?
her: No.
me: Thai?
her: OK.

They usually make better choices than me anyhow ;)

Although, the senario always seams to go something like this:

her: You pick where to go for dinner.
me: Indian?
her: No.
me: Itallian?
her: No.
me: Chinese?
her: No.
me: Brew pub?
her: No.
me: Thai?
her: OK.

Problem solved:

Get into that kitchen and make her some dinner.

of course picking where you go to dinner is equivalent. very relevant example, thank you.

I am sorry that you hypothetically chose to marry a pig instead of a man but in all of the relationships I've been in my partner and I would bend over backwards for eachother and in the relationships of my friends with kids, they've stayed in for the weekend with the kids so the wife could have her "party night out with the girls" etc.