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happiegrrrl
Feb 1, 2009, 5:49 PM
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About male vs. female with general care... I think there is some correlation with a woman's thinking process and that they tend to end up taking charge even in these days of ....equality.
I read a book once(cannot recall the name) that was a scientist's work on the actual differences between male/female brains and how those variations affected other parts of the person.
One of the things was that women have multiple language centers within our brains whereas men usually just have one. That, he posited, was why women "seem" to interconnect issues which men are befuddled by.
An example might be the guy sees a hottie and is excited. "Mmmm, hottie!" is about the extent of what's in his head.
Whereas the woman sees him ogling and gets irritated - thought processes of fidelity, lack of respect(as she is standing right f'in there, asshole), grossed outedness because the hottie doesn't look very clean or is tacky in some cheap get up and any other number of "feelings" which all swirl around together like a little tornado.
She gets irritated, the guy finally asks why. and when she mentions the hottie he is befuddled.... he was just looking, after all....
I had a guy friend and we were discussing this difference(before I had read this book). The guy says "You know, when you ask a guy what he's thinking about something? Imagine a little cartoon thought bubble coming from his head, and it's empty."
The scientist author did note that, of course, there are variations all along the scale - from the total testosterone male to the femme femme female. Also that, as we evolve, humans seem to be gravitating toward having BOTH male/female qualities moreso than in the past. Men are developing more language centers, for example.
What I am getting at is - guys(in general) just don't connect the dots sometimes, when it comes to their kids. They don't realize WHY the errand needs to get done now and that he needs to have (whatever) along for his 2-year old and that he needs to get back home (by whatever time) so the kid can get fed and his nap or else - well, we all know what happens then!
And, in general, women intuitively "get" all this, and also that though the dad really IS doing his best, it is the kid who's gonna be not getting what is needed. And so....they gravitate toward the caretaking role out of necessity for the child's welfare.
The women connects the dots between risky behavior, all the way down to not being available for her child should she be hurt or injured. All without so much as tying in. Whereas the guy....is more apt to realize he's got trouble handling the child care about....the day he wakes up in the hospital after an accident, or gets home 6 hours past the time he said he would and now mom can't do what she had planned.
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lena_chita
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Feb 1, 2009, 6:39 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: One of the things was that women have multiple language centers within our brains whereas men usually just have one. That, he posited, was why women "seem" to interconnect issues which men are befuddled by.
LOL< can't find that picture now, but I remember someone sending me an illustration before, re: male vs. female.
Guy looked like a switchplate. Simple, One button, on/off.
Girl looked like a souped up remote control, with 30 buttons, and several toggle switches.
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matterunomama
Feb 2, 2009, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: Are they less likely to do it b/c they feel more attached to their children and more "responsible" for them than the fathers do? Are the less likely to do so b/c they have been raised that way? Or b/c females in general are more atuned (and more dependent) on the opinions of the people around them, and tend to look for 'approval' and 'validation'?
Most men have no hesitation to casually announce that they are going out of town for the next 4 days-whether for business or the fishing/skiing trip. They would be astounded if the wife said "No, you can't go because I had plans too, and just assumed you would be here". If the husband is a NICE guy he answers "OH, so you need to call an overnight sitter/your mother, have a good time!" Notice the answer is YOU need to call-now its the mother who is "making the choice to leave her kids alone." And other people say so, even if you don't care a flying F what they think. You never hear the phrase 'working Father' (vs 'working mother') and almost as aggravating is the effusive praise people make over seeing a father taking his kids out/doing the laundry/clothes shopping.
'Fess up guys-did you work longer hours at the job, schedule more business trips or find 3 hours of browsing at the Home Depot while your wife waited at home with that crying baby?
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lhwang
Feb 2, 2009, 3:25 AM
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I was waiting to hear from you, lena_chita! Glad you posted.
You're right... I'm not denying that most childrearing responsibilities tend to fall on the woman. The thing that I found so, so disappointing about the article was how the author just accepted this and didn't figure out a way to work around it, and not only that, implicitly criticized those mothers who do climb.
I posted about this article on another forum I frequent... I got so many inspiring stories about single moms who hired babysitters each night so that they could train for marathons, or moms who kept doing mixed martial arts, and all kinds of cool things.
(On female free soloists... the only one that comes to mind is Steph Davis, and her hardest free solos are quite a bit below those of the strongest men.)
I guess on its deepest level, the article scared me because it's yet another woman telling me "No, you can't have it all", that it's impossible to be a good mom, have a career and have leisure activities. But nobody ever seems to say that to men.
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granite_grrl
Feb 2, 2009, 2:54 PM
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So I was thinking about the climbing parents I know, and it seems to be all in your attitude. I have seen the super motivated parents (Lena and her husband) and the completly unbalanced parents (mom stays home, dad still goes out to climb as much as he can). The big difference I've seen in these couples is attitudes and priorities of the mothers. Lena LOVES climbing and works out a balance, woman #2 LOVES being a mom and doesn't mind not climbing.
Neither should be judged, both are doing things that make them happy. But I could totally see people giving Lena a hard time about her climbing and motherhood. What a load of bullshit, but I get the same crap from people who don't understand how I can keep climbing after getting hurt.
I have also seen how people still have different expectations from women than from men. I heard from way too many people over the two years I was working and my husband stayed at home how there was something wrong about that. People didn't mind me working, but they thought I shouldn't have needed to support him. Again, bullshit.
The other thing I noticed about the article is the emphasis that climbing is dangerous and selfish. Yes, it is, but what she didn't point out is the different degrees of safety with different styles/areas. I can think of one father who has toned down his climbing because of this responsibilities so (to be fair) this isn't always just something that women think about.
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lena_chita
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Feb 2, 2009, 3:51 PM
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lhwang wrote: You're right... I'm not denying that most childrearing responsibilities tend to fall on the woman. The thing that I found so, so disappointing about the article was how the author just accepted this and didn't figure out a way to work around it, and not only that, implicitly criticized those mothers who do climb..
I found that in general women seem to be most intent on denigrating/critisizing other women who do these sort of things.
Again, going away from climbing into general life, you won't hear many mainstream men (I'm not talking about the religious fringe that believes woman's place to be at home) critisizing a woman's decision to keep working after having children. The most vocal, and angry, diatribes come from women-- the ones who made a different choice. An entirely valid, but PERDONAL choice to stay home with their children -- but they aren't content with feeling that they have made the right choice for their own families. No, they feel the need to point fingers and critisize other women who chose to do differently.
In the same way, the most vocal people who talk about "mothers of young children shouldn't be climbing" are WOMEN, not men. The author of the article DID figure out some way of incorporating climbing into her life. But she goes a step further in saying that you simply cannot incorporate much more of it into your life, and still be a "good" mother. That's the part that i found disappointing in the article.
lhwang wrote: I guess on its deepest level, the article scared me because it's yet another woman telling me "No, you can't have it all", that it's impossible to be a good mom, have a career and have leisure activities. But nobody ever seems to say that to men.
Well, on the most basic level, it IS true-- you cannot have it all.
When the author says that if you really, really love climbing, you shouldn't have children, or you would end up disappointed, she IS right.
The decision to have children is a decision to put interests of these other human beings that you create AHEAD of your own interests -- for the rest of your life. If you put it that starkly, it is surprizing that so many people are having children (I guess not manty people think it through). It IS true--or at least SHOULD be true-- for men as well as women. But because women cary the bigger part of childrearing responsibilities, for reasons that were touched on in this thread already, it ffects them more.
I had my first child at 25yold. I started climbing AFTER I had kids. So climbing never had a chance to usurp the place of my children in my life. Climbing fits in between the children's needs and schedules. Children come first, and climbing second.
I honestly don't know that I would have made the decision to have children at the age of 25 IF I already was a climber, and enjoying it as much as I do now. B/c the truth is, if I had found climbing earlier, I would have been doing a LOT more of it, and I may not have been willing to scale it back at that time, in the way I was willing to give up or scale back other htings.
Slightly ridiculous to compare myself to Lynn Hill, but think about it-- she has a child. She is still climbing, and she is still capable of smoking most of the other climbers out there. BUT-- her climbing is different now. She isn't traveling around the globe so much. She is doing more teaching, climbing camps, etc. She is almost certainly climbing fewer days per year that she used to, and many of her climbing days are probably planned with her child in mind, instead of the thoughts of sending this awesome project.
BUT-- she didn't have a child at the age of 25, at the height of her climbing carier. She had a child at the age of 42-- you may say "past her prime" in terms of climbing. I cannot know how she made her decisions, obviously, but statistically, this is the path that is taken by many women: doing your own things, the things you enjoy, be it building your professional carier, or traveling, or climbing, for a long time, until you are faced with the fact that you cannot postpone much longer. If you want a child, you have to act now. Hopefully at that point the woman has a mature enough viewpoint to understand (and accept) the fact that having a child DOES mean that you will give up or scale back severely the things you really enjoy, but you are doing it on your own free will, and you are ready to give up some things for the joy of raising that child that you want.
So how do you see it? Did Lynn 'give up' climbing when she had a child? No, she was certainly able to continue climbing, but she HAD to give up some chunk of it. That is just how it is.
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clee03m
Feb 2, 2009, 6:02 PM
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My blood pressure went up so high after reading the article, I might have suffered from a stroke.
Lena, you are my hero. Whenever someone tells me I won't climb after I have kids, I give your example. And I love saying she cranks harder that you ever will.
I plan to start trying to get pregnant this year. I am not sure why woman still pick up more work when it comes to raising a child. I believe it is a choice a woman makes when she does unfair share of raising children. Certainly when it comes to housework, my husband and I do our equal share (to be fair, my husband often picks up a lot more since I tend to work longer hours). I made it clear when we met, that career is important to me, and when I have kids, I plan to work full time. He has no problems with that. While my husband can't be pregnant or breast feed, I expect him to fully contribute to raising the child in every other way, and he also expects it. If our work hours remains similar, I expect that he will do more. I may not be able to climb as often, but I will climb. And lately, I climb mostly trad climbs, and I don't think this will make a difference for me. I already climb less than I'd like because I work and because I am married. I have not regretted either choices I made, and I'm sure I won't regret having children.
So, lhwang, I don't care what this lady says. I plan to have it all. Right now, I have a great career, a great marriage, and I climb as often as I can. I am perfectly happy. Hopefully, by next year, I will be able to add being a mom to that list.
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lena_chita
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Feb 2, 2009, 6:58 PM
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clee03m wrote: I am not sure why woman still pick up more work when it comes to raising a child. I believe it is a choice a woman makes when she does unfair share of raising children.
Yes, it is a choice the woman makes. Why? Usually because there are things that she believes to be important enough to get done, and her husband doesn't share the same opinion, so if she wants them done, she has to do it.
An example: schools usually do some sort of a celebration for the child's birthdays. There is one day a month when they celebrate all January birthdays, for example. You get a note from school, saying that the celebration is on such and such day, the folloing kids in the classroom have their birthdays on that month. Parents, please coordinate the treats among yourselves.
Now, we are talking a classroom celebration, so it is obviously during the day. You are at work during the day. Furthermore, you happen to have a meeting at that exact time. What is your call? Do you:
1) ignore the school celebration. After all, you will do something else for your child birthday at your own time of choice.
2) take time off, make or buy the treats, and dutifully show up at your child's school at the appointed time.
3) tell the husband it is his turn to do it b/c you've done it last year.
Choice number 1: a major guilt trip. Your child is going to be the only one there who won't have the parent show up. A young child would usually be quite upset by it... The other parents (and the teacher) will probably gossip-- something along the lines of "what sort of a mother doesn't even bother to bring treats for her child's BIRTHDAY!!! tut-tut!!!!." (interestingly enough, they never say a word about the FATHER, even though the child usually does have two parents. )
Choice number 2: You will be probably frazzled and rushing. You might have to make decisions that will negatively affect your work. Do you cancel the meeting to go to your childs' school party? Do you postpone the experiment? Do you come back to work at night to finish up the things that you didn't do during the day? Ask a co-worker to back you up? How often can you ask before people start resenting your requests?
Choice number 3 -- Several possibilities:
-- Your husband might simply say: No, I can't go. I have a meeting. (Note, husbands have no problem saying that. They are not guilt-tripped into it by the thought of their child's distress, and are not affected by worries of gossiping mouths.). You are back to picking between choices number 1 and 2.
-- Your husband would agree to go, but you would still have to be the one who either makes the treats, or tells your husband how many, and exactly what KIND of treats to get (turns out, your husband has no clue of how many children there are in your child's classroom, doesn't know that the school is peanut-free, and that one child in the classroom is allergic to eggs. But if he gets the wrong number or kind of treats, YOU will be the one the teacher will blame, not your husband.). Furthermore, you would be the one to remember the date and time of the celebration, and it would be your job to remind your husband... Meanwhile, he would be grumbling that you are too controlling and worried about non-important stuff.
I contend that no matter which choice you make, 1, 2, or 3, YOU are still the one doing the major share of work and bearing the major responsibility. However, if you are lucky enough that your husband consents to go with option 3, everyone would say: 'Oh, what a wonderful father he is. He is helping his wife SOOO much.' And the husband will be feeling that he is doing his wife a major favor, for which he should be appropriately rewarded -- even though she is still the one doing most of the work.
There is, of course, a choice number 4-- for those families lucky enough to live near their extended family. The mother asks HER mother to help out by taking the treats to the child's party. the grandmother is delighted to help, the mother is relieved, the child is happy to see grandma. Something to be said for the exptended family... but note, it is still the WOMAN who makes the call to find help from the grandma.
clee03m wrote: may not be able to climb as often, but I will climb. And lately, I climb mostly trad climbs, and I don't think this will make a difference for me. I already climb less than I'd like because I work and because I am married. I have not regretted either choices I made, and I'm sure I won't regret having children. So, lhwang, I don't care what this lady says. I plan to have it all. Right now, I have a great career, a great marriage, and I climb as often as I can. I am perfectly happy. Hopefully, by next year, I will be able to add being a mom to that list.
I am sure that you will still climb, and will make it work. You have an expectation that you will climb LESS-- and that is a fair expectation. I think this is what the author of the article meant, even if it didn't come out well.
If you go into your decision to have a child with the understanding that you will have to scale back, and you are making that decision willingly, then there is no problem, no conflict, and no disappointment. The situation she was talking about, I believe, is someone who was NOT wiling to scale back. Someone saying that they would be able to climb just as much as before having kids, go out just as much as before, work as much as before, that having kids will NOT affect the rest of their life, and their leisure activity. That expectation is bound to be unrealistic and cause much frustration and disappointment.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 2, 2009, 8:12 PM
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clausti wrote: Matt Samet wrote: Hi Christina, We were well aware of the old grade of 5.8. A new book pegged it at 5.10, so we went with that after some discussion. Matt clausti wrote: Hey Matt, What book? Matt Samet wrote: I had the old Mc Carthy ones at the office, as did Susan at home — Modern Times there is 5.8, you’re right; Susan referenced the new Extreme Angles one: http://extremeangles.com/gunks.htm We’re a very small editorial staff, but I do my best to fact-check things like that. Matt This is the new book.  
That book is a piece of shit. He should have known better.
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mindaa
Feb 2, 2009, 8:24 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: About male vs. female with general care... I think there is some correlation with a woman's thinking process and that they tend to end up taking charge even in these days of ....equality.
This is a really valid point. Women (of most species) take on the protector role towards their children, while men are the providers. We'll always be different, regardless of how society evolves.
I don't agree that having children doesn't change men, as it has changed the climbing fathers I know. They definitely feel a heightened awareness of needing to stay alive because their family is relying on them.
But agree that men do seem to continue to climb more than the moms...of course in the cases I'm most familiar with the mom was climbing mostly because of her husband in the first place, not so much because it was her own thing.
Personally, I've had to reconcile the fact that my attitude towards climbing, and life in general, will change if/when I have children. (being married and in my 30’s it’s definitely on my mind) I know I’ll probably climb even more cautiously (if that’s possible) and there will be less time for myself, but I see that as just part choosing parenthood, as all parents have to sacrifice personal time when they have kids regardless of what their “hobbies” were pre-kid. Of course realizing that’s it’s also important for parents to maintain some personal time for a healthy balance, which is why I agree it’s unfair for climbing moms to be criticized for taking a climbing weekend, when it seems OK for a mom to go on a women’s retreat or a spa weekend, or a dad to go hunting or fishing.
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clee03m
Feb 2, 2009, 8:26 PM
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Or choice number 5 which is when they say parents coordinate, they mean parents and not moms. I completely expect my husband to share all responsibilities including cupcake bullshit. I do not intend to have any guilt trips that he does not have. Whatever. He is the one with ed pych major. If he doesn't feel that cupcakes are that important and we both have meetings that day (actually, I really can't take days off from work for something like that), no cupcakes. Other parents can talk shit, I guess.
And while I am realistic and think that I will have to scale back climbing, I really don't think it will be that much.
My letter to the editor:
Eight Confessions of a Climbing Mom by Susan Schwartz really saddened me to read. I am surprised at the blatant sexism present in the article. While asserting that “climbing and motherhood are pretty incompatible,” she makes sweeping generalizations about the role of ‘mom’ vs. ‘dad.’ She lists laundry list of chores that ‘typically’ fall to women, none of which is gender specific. Then she asks the question if moms should even climb. Not only she states that this question (unquestionably sexist in my mind) is asked, but somehow it is legitimate. It is selfish for a mom to die, but not a dad? I fail to see why any of this is a gender issue. She ends with three tips which amount to don’t expect much, shift away from climbing, or stop all together. This article is a denial of women who climb harder than ever despite motherhood, discouragement to women who are facing future motherhood, and an insult to dads who play just as important role in a child’s life and attend teacher conferences, carpool, etc., but especially to those who sacrificed, perhaps his own climbing time, so that his significant other can climb.
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kellie
Feb 2, 2009, 8:57 PM
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lena_chita wrote: An example: schools usually do some sort of a celebration for the child's birthdays. There is one day a month when they celebrate all January birthdays, for example. You get a note from school, saying that the celebration is on such and such day, the folloing kids in the classroom have their birthdays on that month. Parents, please coordinate the treats among yourselves.
Good God, seriously? There's a day a month AT SCHOOL dedicated to birthday parties? How very educational.
I do think parents worry about this sort of thing way too much. My parents showed up for the school Christmas concerts and usually for one performance of any play I happened to be in, but I think they may have made it to two track meets in the eight years I competed and they certainly never chaperoned anything or brought cupcakes to school for my whole class (not that I remember any other parents ever doing anything like that either). And I never had any problem with my parents' level of involvement. If anything I preferred it that way.
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clausti
Feb 2, 2009, 9:09 PM
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kellie wrote: lena_chita wrote: An example: schools usually do some sort of a celebration for the child's birthdays. There is one day a month when they celebrate all January birthdays, for example. You get a note from school, saying that the celebration is on such and such day, the folloing kids in the classroom have their birthdays on that month. Parents, please coordinate the treats among yourselves. Good God, seriously? There's a day a month AT SCHOOL dedicated to birthday parties? How very educational. I do think parents worry about this sort of thing way too much. My parents showed up for the school Christmas concerts and usually for one performance of any play I happened to be in, but I think they may have made it to two track meets in the eight years I competed and they certainly never chaperoned anything or brought cupcakes to school for my whole class (not that I remember any other parents ever doing anything like that either). And I never had any problem with my parents' level of involvement. If anything I preferred it that way.
solution: have kids birthdays in summer! my mom never had to make cupcakes. 
i keed, i keed...
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 2, 2009, 9:27 PM)
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boadman
Feb 2, 2009, 9:12 PM
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My wife and I are both climbers, we've got two kids. We also do lots of other things, play soccer, hang out with family, my wife's into making jewelry, etc. Free Time is definately a major discussion point between my wife and I. Pretty much every weekend involves a lot of negotiation between the many demands on our time. One of the big things that hasn't been mentioned is that generally, once you have a kid, you climb less because you want to spend time with them doing things that they enjoy. I work 40 to 60 hours a week, all time that I don't spend with my kids, and on the weekends I often have to decide if I'm going to try to go climbing or if I'm going to hang out with the munchkins. It's a really hard decision. Generally my wife and I give eachother one day off per week, and off means no work, no childcare, just free time. The funny thing is that when you do it this way, you never spend time with your mate... Sometimes I go climbing, but sometimes I go to the park and kick a ball around and make pancakes instead. I don't want to be the dad that was never there, and after a week of work, I miss my kids. It does make it really difficult to continue to climb at what ever physical level you're accustomed to though. You have to get really efficient with your training.
My wife is a stay at home mom, and probably won't go back to work until the kids are in school, which definately makes things a lot easier for us.
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lena_chita
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Feb 2, 2009, 9:25 PM
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kellie wrote: lena_chita wrote: An example: schools usually do some sort of a celebration for the child's birthdays. There is one day a month when they celebrate all January birthdays, for example. You get a note from school, saying that the celebration is on such and such day, the folloing kids in the classroom have their birthdays on that month. Parents, please coordinate the treats among yourselves. Good God, seriously? There's a day a month AT SCHOOL dedicated to birthday parties? How very educational. I do think parents worry about this sort of thing way too much.
Yeah, in general parents worry about everything too much.
I think the school birthday celebrations are ridiculous, too. Hopefully it will not continue past elementary school. However, while these things are going on, and while they ARE important to my kids, I make an effort to be there. Would they be scarred for life if I didn't make it to a party -- nope, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. But it is just a little example of everyday choices you have to make as a parent. The little things add up.
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kellie
Feb 2, 2009, 9:56 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Yeah, in general parents worry about everything too much.
No doubt. I certainly would.
lena_chita wrote: I think the school birthday celebrations are ridiculous, too. Hopefully it will not continue past elementary school. However, while these things are going on, and while they ARE important to my kids, I make an effort to be there. Would they be scarred for life if I didn't make it to a party -- nope, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. But it is just a little example of everyday choices you have to make as a parent. The little things add up.
Yeah, every kid is different too. While I loved having as much autonomy as possible from a very young age (I remember thinking the kids who were crying on the first day of kindergarten were babies), everyone isn't like that. You're the best judge of what is and isn't important for your family.
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lena_chita
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Feb 2, 2009, 9:57 PM
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clee03m wrote: Or choice number 5 which is when they say parents coordinate, they mean parents and not moms. I completely expect my husband to share all responsibilities including cupcake bullshit.
Great expectation!
Yes, of course, when the note says "parents coordinate" that means theoretically parents of both genders. However, if you did a poll of the parents in my kids' classroom, or did a poll of parents I work with, and asked them what notes came home from school in the past couple weeks, I can guarantee you that Moms will tell you exactly what those notes said, and describe how they are planning to deal with it, and most Dads would say:"Huh? what note? there is a birthday celebration at school? which project is due? Nobody told me!"
A somewhat comical example from couple of weeks ago.
K. called me on Wednesday, frantic b/c Daniel didn't come home from school. He called the after-care, and Daniel wasn't there, either, so he needed someone (that would be me) to tell him what to do next.
Meanwhile, on the board right above the kitchen table there was a BIG bright-neon-pink sign that said in large black letters: GREENHOUSE CLUB DATES. Yes, that Wednesday was listed right there on that neon-pink sheet.
Did K. know that Daniel was participating in Greenhouse club? Theoretically he should have known.
--When the description of the clubs came home in the fall, he saw it.
--When Daniel signed up for it, there was a discussion which club he wanted to choose, complete with the discussion about the late bus, the time the late bus showed up, etc..
--When the schedule of club meeting dates came home, he saw it, too, theoretically. And then the Schedule went up on a board in a very visible place in the kitchen, so we would all remember it.
--This being a regular event, there have been multiple meetings (always on Wednesdays) before now.
--Moreover, on the very morning of the day he panicked b/c his child was missing, he was right there at the table during breakfast, when I had reminded Daniel that he had a greenhouse club after school, reminded him of the time the late bus left the school, and asked him to check that he still had his home key in his backpack.
Nothing wrong with my husband's brain. he will tell you exactly when he climbed his first 5.12, after how many tries, and what the crux sequence was. He is also very good at trivia games...
People remember things that they find important... concluision?
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clausti
Feb 2, 2009, 10:52 PM
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lena_chita wrote: People remember things that they find important... concluision?
Daniel should climb more 5.12's on Wednesdays?
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clee03m
Feb 2, 2009, 11:01 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Great expectation!
Not great, just fair.
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aerili
Feb 2, 2009, 11:51 PM
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So, although I am just as against any double standard as many of you, I don't think the woman who wrote that article was trying to be sexist or defeatist. Although it doesn't paint a future I personally want, I don't think she was trying to be negative or 'keep us down.'
I think those of us without kids have a hard time understanding how a parent thinks or feels. To some degree, the moms I know (climbers or not) don't make a real effort to get out and do their own thing. Whether this is due to what society has told them they should do or whether it's just what they want for themselves (or partially each), I don't know. I guess I think it's both.
I do believe that many women feel their husbands cannot do as good a job as they do raising the kids. (Some of this may be true, but also you can't expect your husband to do everything exactly like you and that your way is the only way.)
The other thing I believe is that more men than we know really have had to change their climbing life when they had kids. I am not sure who the author polled (last page) wherein men said they really didn't change anything after having kids, but she may have had a sampling bias. I've read many, many posts on here and other climbing sites by men who talk about the drastic change in their climbing lifestyle post-children. Many of them barely get out at all.
On the other hand, I agree women still do most of the work, get no praise for it, yet men are somehow rewarded as being an 'exceptional' parent for changing diapers, going grocery shopping, etc.
Lastly, I believe that if we keep doing everything in the household/family life for men then they will never have any reason to get off their duff and do it themselves. .....Although I don't know if this works when it comes to things like cupcakes, lol!
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clausti
Feb 3, 2009, 12:11 AM
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in other news, fuck you guys for mentioning cupcakes. I"M SO FREAKING HUNGRy.
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lena_chita
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Feb 3, 2009, 1:49 AM
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clee03m wrote: lena_chita wrote: Great expectation! Not great, just fair.
True. And don't get me wrong, I think you should go into it with expectation of fairness and equality b/c if you don't, you CERTAINLY won't get it.
You don't get equal rights if you don't demand them and expect them.
What I am trying to say is the dynamics changes when the kids get introduced into partnership.
When you are just partners, neither one is "responsible" for the other. Each person is capable and independent, and the amount of "coordination" that needs to happen for the partnership to be successful is fairly minimal. It is easy to come up with some sort of arrangement along the lines of " you do the cooking, I do the dishes, b/c that's what each of us prefers, we both do laundry, we alternate grocery shopping, and we both clean up after ourselves." Fair, equal, and pretty much the norm for modern-day couples.
When the kids enter the picture, not only the amount of work is going up exponentially, but a lot of it becomes more rigid.
You could have "winged" it before without milk for couple days, or pretty much without anything else. If your partner went grocery shopping and forgot to buy tomatoes before -- big deal! When you are out of diapers or formula, "winging it" gets quite difficult, and an unplanned trip to a grocery store when the schedule is already tight becomes a major thing. Forgetting to buy an essential item like that gets a lot more negative reaction than forgetting to buy an avocado.
You could have been a happy-go-lucky couple as far as dinner arrangements went, deciding what to do about it, oh, just around 7 pm. Kids are in the picture-- and all of a sudden you have to plan things in advance, or else deal with the very cranky baby and a hungry toddler melting down.
You could have been able to make on-the-spot arrangements to go out with friends, with nothing but a quick courtesy call to your partner required, so he wouldn't be expecting you. Kids in the picture-- and all of a sudden your free evenings do not exist, and each and every thing has to be painstakingly planned.
All of a sudden you need to plan in advance-- everything from who gets to take the kid to daycare on which day, to what will be for dinner 5 days down the road, and who gets to go out on Wednesdays...
When planning like that gets really complicated, coordinating it all becomes a major job, and all of a sudden there is a need for one person to keep track of it all, b/c quite often if there are several persons responsible, neither one is. For some reason, women pick up this job more often, and the guys are content to let them do it.
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lena_chita
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Feb 3, 2009, 1:51 AM
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clausti wrote: lena_chita wrote: People remember things that they find important... conclusion? Daniel should climb more 5.12's on Wednesdays?
How did I NOT think of that solution before!
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lena_chita
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Feb 3, 2009, 2:24 AM
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aerili wrote: So, although I am just as against any double standard as many of you, I don't think the woman who wrote that article was trying to be sexist or defeatist. Although it doesn't paint a future I personally want, I don't think she was trying to be negative or 'keep us down.'
I did see it as defeatist. But I didn't think she was painting the future. She was doing a snapshot of things as they are NOW for many women. If people she polled felt that way, you cannot really argue with it, can you?
And while I feel that I have it "better" than the women she had described, I also know that I am more of an exception than a rule. I do think that she painted a representative picture of climbing/motherhood combo. It doesn't HAVE to be that way, but it often is.
aerili wrote: I think those of us without kids have a hard time understanding how a parent thinks or feels. To some degree, the moms I know (climbers or not) don't make a real effort to get out and do their own thing. Whether this is due to what society has told them they should do or whether it's just what they want for themselves (or partially each), I don't know. I guess I think it's both.
Yes, probably both, as well as a lot of other things. They are, for one thing, simply physically tired. Getting up to "do your own thing" requires effort and energy, and not every woman has any of it leftover after dealing with the daily grind.
But this is truly somehting that depends on an individual woman, and not on any societal pressures. If you want something, and you are an energetic and motivated person, you find a way.
And true-- I myself could not have predicted how I would feel after having the kids. Some things that seem obvious and natural now would have appeared weird if you had showed me the picture of the future me 10 years ago.
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