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jmeizis
Jul 30, 2009, 1:36 AM
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Sorry that was just the title of the chapter in the book. I hadn't really thought of a better title so I stole it. Most of the women climbers I know don't like to lead though. I don't know why.
I agree that different isn't bad. The use of bolts for protecting face climbs opened up lots of lines that would have never been touched otherwise. Of course everything new has it's side effects, look at cell phones or television. I think there are certain things that may have had a negative impact on climbing through ease of accessibility. If I want to I can go get a blow by blow account of every pitch on The Nose. Hell, somebody should sell that as a guidebook. $40 a pop and that person will be rich.
There are a lot of things in society, as well as in climbing, that have made things easier and more convenient. This is nice in some ways. It's good to have bolted anchors with fragile cliff top environments. It's also bad in some ways. People see one convenience and want to apply it to everything. Bolted rap anchors where they aren't necessary, extremely detailed topos, things of that nature have people acting lazier. Instead of figuring it out they solve it like an engineering problem till the physical act of climbing is no longer a surprise and all danger has been eliminated.
What would have Powell's travels down the Grand Canyon have been like if he'd had a map? It would have been pointless.
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hafilax
Jul 30, 2009, 1:39 AM
Post #177 of 810
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Gmburns2000 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Mmmmm. So if I say sisterhood, you are going to assume males might be involved...yes? some words carry more weight than others. while it is not common in English, there are some words that are more gender specific than others. A ship is rarely (if ever) a "he," for example. Brotherhood is much more likely to be used for both sexes combined than sisterhood is. This is because sisterhood carries more weight with regards to gender, whereas brotherhood, particularly in this context, is more about the partnership. Yes, brotherhood could mean men only, but it doesn't always mean just mean only, whereas sisterhood does mean women only. Call it sexist if you will, but it's how the language has evolved. Another example: While France may have a reputation of having macho men, "liberté, égalité, fraternité" does not exclude women. 
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 1:39 AM
Post #178 of 810
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No need to get defensive. Honestly...but to me as a woman, brotherhood does not feel gender non specific. Maybe thats just me personally. I dunno, it always feel like when I bring this sort of thing up I'm brushed aside as arguing semantics and all of the men are groaning like "oh another feminist rock climber. thats NEW. HAHAHA." I don't really care, but it does make me feel a little excluded.
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 1:43 AM
Post #180 of 810
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I really appreciate your reply, thanks. I also appreciate the point you are trying to make...its a good one. I love hearing other people's points of view from their own life experiences. My favorite person to talk to is one that has been climbing for a long time.
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jmeizis
Jul 30, 2009, 1:49 AM
Post #181 of 810
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Educate me then man. Be a little more specific and let me know where I'm going wrong. Please don't say you already did because I haven't seen anything specific. So I want you to really think about what you have to say that will actually be constructive. Convince me that bolts should be placed next to perfectly good gear placements or that people should have convenient, comfortable climbing right out their car door and should feel no need to explore. Convince me that someone who likes bouldering should never rope up. Don't get angry or defensive if you don't have a good reason. Sack up and admit you have no logical reason for your thoughts or present a logical response which is defensible.
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kriso9tails
Jul 30, 2009, 1:49 AM
Post #182 of 810
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karmiclimber wrote: Mmmmm. So if I say sisterhood, you are going to assume males might be involved...yes?
That would go against the convention in English to use the masculine form for mixed gender groups; however, in some cases I would assume that males would be involved.
If it were, for example, something like the Sisterhood Against Breast Cancer, I would think it highly likely that there are probably males involved as well.
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 1:56 AM
Post #183 of 810
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I think we should go against that convention. And I think that more men should tell their belay slave gf's to go for the lead and if they can't nail the lead, find a climb they can lead. Wow, I am way off topic. I just see too many girls at the gym or crag who are there because their boyfriend climbs...I think they should at least go home if they don't like climbing! I keep saying I'm not a feminist, but I'm pretty sure that is false.
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jmeizis
Jul 30, 2009, 2:03 AM
Post #184 of 810
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Like I said earlier, threads will drift, sorry Greg. It'll get back on topic eventually. I often see the belay slave girlfriend and only occasionally see women who actually want to take the lead. Part of this I think might be social. Women aren't generally socialized to be brave or strong leaders. I think that's changing (an example of a good change in my opinion) but there are plenty of remnants in climbing of a pretty male-centric sport.
I think a lot of guys try to get their girlfriends into climbing because they like it and their girlfriends are trying to please them. I've encountered plenty of women who just can't be genuine about how they feel because they don't want to piss someone off. I think that's too bad. I don't think it leads anywhere good.
That doesn't mean I don't know some women who've started out climbing their boyfriends.
(This post was edited by jmeizis on Jul 30, 2009, 2:09 AM)
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happiegrrrl
Jul 30, 2009, 2:07 AM
Post #185 of 810
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Dingus more often refers to the generic climber as a "she" and does it, I think, graciously.
But he's about the only one I can recall. I think Karmiclimber has a point - Call it the Sisterhood of the rope(in seriousness) and most guys would have at least a little bit of a chapped ass over it.
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 2:11 AM
Post #186 of 810
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I TOTALLY agree. Girls, when children, who are brave are labelled as "not cautious, reckless and stupid" and boys who are brave are called brave. I think/hope that is changing from when I was a child.
Don't get me wrong...I've been THAT girlfriend. The one too timid to lead, etc. I think I figured out that when my climber bf's waxed and waned and my love for the sport didn't...it was time to step up. I wish my story wasn't that way, but it is what it is...and that's more a story for the therapist than rockclimbing.com. I'm just glad I DID step up...only wish I had done it sooner. Thank God for Lynn Hill. ANYWAY. On with the thread :P
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hafilax
Jul 30, 2009, 2:19 AM
Post #187 of 810
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jmeizis wrote: Educate me then man. Be a little more specific and let me know where I'm going wrong. Please don't say you already did because I haven't seen anything specific. So I want you to really think about what you have to say that will actually be constructive. Convince me that bolts should be placed next to perfectly good gear placements or that people should have convenient, comfortable climbing right out their car door and should feel no need to explore. Convince me that someone who likes bouldering should never rope up. Don't get angry or defensive if you don't have a good reason. Sack up and admit you have no logical reason for your thoughts or present a logical response which is defensible.
You need to get over this desire to make everyone enjoy climbing for the same reasons you do. As long as there is room for everyone to enjoy what they seek to get out of climbing there isn't much more that can be done. The battle grounds are the gray areas where preserving the adventure for a few brave souls is tread on by the timid masses.
I don't know if you look at supertopo or not. There have been some far more interesting rants on the subject with a lot more perspective. The museum climb thread and the Grown Up/ Half Dome gets rap bolted threads immediately come to mind. There's also Donini's thread about people placing too much gear for anchors. The Bachar-Yerian thread is pretty amazing too. Also in there is the first hand story of the free solo FFA of Pipeline in Squamish, coz's FA of Southern Belle and countless other stories from BITD.
I found a few for those who are interested:
museum climbs? http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=447487&tn=0
Southern Belle: http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=568523&tn=0
Grown Up/ Rap bolt Half Dome: http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=566859&tn=0
Too many belay anchors: http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=894542&tn=0
Bachar-Yerian: http://www.supertopo.com/...c_id=375380&tn=0
Be warned some of those are ridiculously long and the interesting bits can be few and far between but it's worth it.
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dingus
Jul 30, 2009, 2:23 AM
Post #188 of 810
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Do we really want future generations to have to go through the whole thing again all on their own?
As if you have ANY say at all about what future generations will do.
This is the heart of most style and ethics police... imposing their will on others.
What is ethical about THAT?
Every generation will go through the whole thing again no matter how many windmills you tilt.
DMT
DMT
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kriso9tails
Jul 30, 2009, 2:27 AM
Post #189 of 810
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karmiclimber wrote: I think we should go against that convention.
I have more than one stance on that (largely based on context), but overall, I don't really share that sentiment. I'm fine with using certain engendered nouns and pronouns where mixed genders are concerned. I strongly dislike 'he/ she' for the sake of political correctness.
I have been in groups where I was the only guy present. I've had to explain briefly that I understand 'girls' to mean the entire group including me and that there was no need for apologies or awkward add-ons to include me.
That is not to say that i don't completely recognize the legitimacy of your stance.
In reply to: And I think that more men should tell their belay slave gf's to go for the lead and if they can't nail the lead, find a climb they can lead. Wow, I am way off topic. I just see too many girls at the gym or crag who are there because their boyfriend climbs...I think they should at least go home if they don't like climbing! I keep saying I'm not a feminist, but I'm pretty sure that is false.
I think that works two ways. I think more girls should just take the lead out of entitlement when they want it and that guys should be more open and encouraging of this mindset (if they aren't already). I can't say I treat female climbers and male climbers identically in all situations, but when we're on the rock, my climbing partner is my climbing partner and gender isn't relevant.
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dingus
Jul 30, 2009, 2:37 AM
Post #190 of 810
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karmiclimber wrote: I TOTALLY agree. Girls, when children, who are brave are labelled as "not cautious, reckless and stupid" and boys who are brave are called brave. I think/hope that is changing from when I was a child.
It hasn't changed much. Consider this thread
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...6;page=unread#unread
One of my jobs as a father of girls is to teach them a certain sense of recklessness. Its a FUN job!
I ain't know ward clever and my little girl will cock punch you into next month if you give her any shit.
(No grasshopper... punch THROUGH the cock. You must punch all the way THOUGH THE COCK.)
Till er cock's stickin out yer asshole, blinking in the sun.
BOOM! Out go the lights.
DMT
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 2:42 AM
Post #191 of 810
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This is not about political correctness. This is not about some awkward phraseology you have to assume to make girls feel included. Its about a general attitude that male climbers have. Y'all are selfish and narrow minded. You think about yourself...you being a male and all and do not see a problem. Most male climbers will take their gf's and be like "alrighty, lets find you something to lead" and put them on something they can't finish. Or even start sometimes. And then both give up and its back to belay slave. Because while most male climbers would not play rope gun for a bunch of males (at least not for long) they will do it for their gf, endlessly. I applaud the men who are out there leading the 5.4, cleaning it, pulling the rope and then saying "alright honey, your turn." I dunno, if men really wanted to introduce their girls to a sport they feel the woman might like...and actually get them INTO it...they would encourage them to find climbers who climbed on their level and find their own way in climbing (and maybe if they were super selfless, show them and do it with them).
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hafilax
Jul 30, 2009, 2:45 AM
Post #192 of 810
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dingus wrote: karmiclimber wrote: I TOTALLY agree. Girls, when children, who are brave are labelled as "not cautious, reckless and stupid" and boys who are brave are called brave. I think/hope that is changing from when I was a child. It hasn't changed much. Consider this thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/...6;page=unread#unread One of my jobs as a father of girls is to teach them a certain sense of recklessness. Its a FUN job! I ain't know ward clever and my little girl will cock punch you into next month if you give her any shit. (No grasshopper... punch THROUGH the cock. You must punch all the way THOUGH THE COCK.) Till er cock's stickin out yer asshole, blinking in the sun. BOOM! Out go the lights. DMT 
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kriso9tails
Jul 30, 2009, 3:08 AM
Post #193 of 810
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karmiclimber wrote: This is not about political correctness. This is not about some awkward phraseology you have to assume to make girls feel included. Its about a general attitude that male climbers have.
This? The 'political correctness' was in regards to a convention of the English language.
In reply to: Y'all are selfish and narrow minded. You think about yourself...you being a male and all and do not see a problem.
All of us?
In reply to: Most male climbers will take their gf's and be like "alrighty, lets find you something to lead" and put them on something they can't finish. Or even start sometimes. And then both give up and its back to belay slave. Because while most male climbers would not play rope gun for a bunch of males (at least not for long) they will do it for their gf, endlessly.
Most? What are you basing this on? While there definitely is a certain amount of sexism in climbing, we must climb in different circles. I've climbed in many different areas and while I have certainly seen what you are talking about, it hasn't represented the majority that I've met. Other people's experiences may differ.
In reply to: I applaud the men who are out there leading the 5.4, cleaning it, pulling the rope and then saying "alright honey, your turn." I dunno, if men really wanted to introduce their girls to a sport they feel the woman might like...and actually get them INTO it...they would encourage them to find climbers who climbed on their level and find their own way in climbing (and maybe if they were super selfless, show them and do it with them).
That's kind of sexist. If you want to get into the sport then get into it. If you want to lead that 5.4 then lead it. If your climbing partner won't support you then do what everyone with a shitty climbing partner has to do: find a new climbing partner.
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billcoe_
Jul 30, 2009, 3:11 AM
Post #194 of 810
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dingus wrote: Angus and I finished "A 4 Dollar Hammer" on Forefathers Wall 2 weekends ago with the red point.
11 bolts and a cam or two to get up the initial 15 feet of fist crack. The crack leans out and the climb starts on a ledge, so no pro = FF2 onto the anchor if you blow the 5.7 moves to the first bolt at 20 feet. Feel free to stick clip. DMT
Seems overbolted even by today's standards.
Stick clip the first 15 feet to avoid those 11 bolts? Huh? Like a bolt every 13 inches there......
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 3:34 AM
Post #195 of 810
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LOL. You are a peach. Basically you agree with what I'm saying but in a super argumentative way. The men I have climbed with have been all over the country. I started out climbing in Ohio...then I moved to Oregon, then California, now back to Ohio (seeing and knowing male climbers at the gym, on rockclimbing.com, at the Red and the New)...over a nine year span. That is the limit of my experience, which I would not call great nor would I call limited either. IN MY EXPERIENCE and personal opinion...the male climber tends to be selfish and self centered. And the point of what I was saying...the male climber does not mind if his gf (no, I am obviously not talking about the woman who found her way into climbing through means of her own, either by platonic male friends, other females, etc) never progresses in climbing. I am talking about the stereotypical male climber here. Just like the guys keep saying the stereotypical female climber doesn't want to lead. Well, maybe that is because the one 5.8 in the group of 5.12's you want to climb isn't going to work out as her first lead. And...I'm a gonna say it :) most men are ashamed to be seen climbing the 5.4 (w/e easy grade we want to put in here) that the female could lead. How do male climbers expect their female partners to progress in climbing, if they can't even start? And as the gf's of these climbers, do you really the gf's thought is going to be "I need a new partner" (maybe sometimes it is) or "I'm not good enough...BF said I could not even climb 5.8 and that was the easiest climb here."
Sure, most men did not find their way into climbing through their gf (mine did though). Most men figured it out for themselves...for whatever reason. Most of the women I meet (myself included, though I had a desire for it prior to meeting my first partner) had an in through the bf. My first boyfriend climber? Told me to skip sport and go right to trad, the REAL climbing. Because he was done with sport. Awesome. Also, told me not to train at the gym, because climbing on plastic was for noobs. I'm not going to go into all of my personal experiences. But the majority of the women I meet and talk to have had similar experiences. All I'm saying is...if you want your girl to lead...teach her. Don't be that guy who is too cool for school on a power trip. And then your gf will be climbing with other girls. And shit will be equal and I will be happy.
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wonderwoman
Jul 30, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #196 of 810
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jmeizis wrote: I often see the belay slave girlfriend and only occasionally see women who actually want to take the lead. Part of this I think might be social. Women aren't generally socialized to be brave or strong leaders.
You can keep your 'Brotherhood', but may I suggest that you may want to try to get out of the gym more often?
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yankinoz
Jul 30, 2009, 3:49 AM
Post #197 of 810
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karmiclimber wrote: My first boyfriend climber? Told me to skip sport and go right to trad, the REAL climbing. Because he was done with sport. Awesome. Also, told me not to train at the gym, because climbing on plastic was for noobs.
So Jeremiah was your first climbing bf?
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karmiclimber
Jul 30, 2009, 3:55 AM
Post #198 of 810
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LOL...no...first climbing bf hasn't posted on this site in years. I'm pretty certain he is "above" rockclimbing.com now too...also "noob land." He's not a bad person...and he taught me everything I know about climbing...for which I am grateful- He was a walking, talking version of "Mountaineering, the Freedom of the Hills" But he was a terrible first partner for a beginner...
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yankinoz
Jul 30, 2009, 3:57 AM
Post #199 of 810
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jmeizis wrote: Convince me that someone who likes bouldering should never rope up.
Why does it matter if someone who likes to boulder never ties in?
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dingus
Jul 30, 2009, 4:04 AM
Post #200 of 810
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billcoe_ wrote: dingus wrote: Angus and I finished "A 4 Dollar Hammer" on Forefathers Wall 2 weekends ago with the red point.
11 bolts and a cam or two to get up the initial 15 feet of fist crack. The crack leans out and the climb starts on a ledge, so no pro = FF2 onto the anchor if you blow the 5.7 moves to the first bolt at 20 feet. Feel free to stick clip. DMT Seems overbolted even by today's standards. Stick clip the first 15 feet to avoid those 11 bolts? Huh? Like a bolt every 13 inches there......
I call that bold talk for a desk jockey.
DMT
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