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nolifeking
Aug 6, 2009, 11:24 AM
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Hi,
So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was:
1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake.
2) Pull slack through
3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold.
4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold
5) Repeat.
She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope".
I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change.
Thanks!
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j_ung
Aug 6, 2009, 12:18 PM
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One brake hand, which stays on the bake at all times is THE RULE. It's how I teach belaying and it makes a lot of sense, when you think about it.
But, it's also dogmatic and doesn't even begin to take into account the intricacies and variables that actual climbing can toss in your general direction. There are many ways to belay. Not all of them are the same, and there's more than one way to do it safely.
Of course, the other thing to consider is that you signed a waiver, which probably says someplace that you agree to abide by gym rules, be they written, spoken or implied.
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Diablotin
Aug 6, 2009, 12:22 PM
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As long as you keep a hand on the brake side it should be good. Maybe your right hand was not tight enough when on the brake side which would ultimately be like not holding it, which could be bad in case of a fall.
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Carnage
Aug 6, 2009, 5:54 PM
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Diablotin wrote: As long as you keep a hand on the brake side it should be good. Maybe your right hand was not tight enough when on the brake side which would ultimately be like not holding it, which could be bad in case of a fall.
this is incorrect at most gyms. also, how would an employee know if you were grabbing the rope tight enough and be confident enough about it to call you out on it?
you cant keep "a" hand on the brake strand. You have to keep the brake hand on the brake strand. ie, i am right handed, my right hand never leaves the brake strand. any time i am moving my right hand it is just a slide.
when you have to move your right hand, grab the rope below your right hand with your left hand, then slide your right hand up to pretty much the belay device.
here is the way you're belaying (which is incorrect, skip to 1:50) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc
here is the way you should be belaying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-a0FLqwPL8 (about the 1:00 mark, also, pro tip, dont anchor in by having your friend grab your haul loop)
she does it a little awkward in the video, it looks like she has only been belaying for a little bit. once you do it a few times it wont feel awkward.
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bill413
Aug 6, 2009, 5:57 PM
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nolifeking wrote: Hi, So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was: 1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake. 2) Pull slack through 3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold. 4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold 5) Repeat. She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope". I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change. Thanks!
From your description, you always had a brake hand on the rope. It's just that which one was the brake hand changed each time you did this.
When using an ATC type device, on TR, and especially with changing hands, you should strive to keep the device in the locked off position as much as possible. So, think about that in your motions.
However, even though, from your description it sounds ok to me, the gym may have it's rules, and also some employees are rote followers of the rules and others allow more interpretation. So, if the gym mandates a belay style (assuming that it's safe) you may have to use that. And, it is a good thing to learn multiple styles of belay.
Edited to add: Man, I must like commas today.
(This post was edited by bill413 on Aug 6, 2009, 5:58 PM)
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gogounou
Aug 6, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Carnage wrote: you cant keep "a" hand on the brake strand. You have to keep the brake hand on the brake strand. ie, i am right handed, my right hand never leaves the brake strand. any time i am moving my right hand it is just a slide.
That.
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kennoyce
Aug 6, 2009, 7:22 PM
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The way you are belaying is just fine in the real world because you do always have a hand on the brake rope. In reality this is excessive especially in a gym top rope situation with all of the extra friction in the system. Because you are in the gym, just do as you are told, but outside if you want to revert to your method, it is perfectly safe.
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jt512
Aug 6, 2009, 8:03 PM
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nolifeking wrote: Hi, So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was: 1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake. 2) Pull slack through 3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold. 4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold 5) Repeat. She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope". I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change. Thanks!
So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything?
Jay
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qtm
Aug 6, 2009, 8:05 PM
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LoL... I've failed two belay tests because of it. Had one girl come running up to me screaming that I was belaying wrong. I tried to explain to her that my left hand was the brake hand, and it was still on the rope, but somehow she just couldn't get past the idea that my right hand was always the brake hand and it always had to be on the rope. I asked what a left handed person would do, but all that got me was the threat of getting kicked out.
Nowadays if someone complains, I have them show me what they want me to do and that's what I do. Easier than trying to explain why my technique is safe. But I'm not in a gym too often anymore.
I don't always match hands; since you've got the rope locked off with the left, you can just "switch", pull slack down with the right and out with the left, then move the right hand to be the brake, and then you're back at your starting position. Saves a step.
Every once in a while someone at the crag spots me doing this and thinks it's best thing since sliced bread. I think it's just natural.
I think it's generally safer since you always have a brake hand on the rope, and it's always close to locked off (none of that raising the rope above the device to pinch). The only time it might be an issue is for lead belaying; if they take a hard FF fall, your left hand might not be as strong as your right and might let more rope slip. But you might also be in a better position to get two hands on the brake, something that the pinch-slide people might not think about.
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seatbeltpants
Aug 6, 2009, 8:18 PM
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qtm wrote: I asked what a left handed person would do, but all that got me was the threat of getting kicked out.
hehehe. i figure you belay in a gym like you eat dinner at someone else's house - you're the guest so you do it by their rules even if you disagree. when you're out on your own you can do whatever the hell you want.
qtm wrote: The only time it might be an issue is for lead belaying; if they take a hard FF fall, your left hand might not be as strong as your right and might let more rope slip.
just a query on this, because i hear people say this quite often... if your grip isn't strong enough and the rope slips through your hand as a result when the rope comes taut, would you be able to stop it once it's sliding? i picture that this'd be very difficult and would result in serious rope burns, even in a short slip (unless you're wearing gloves). my thinking had always been that you'd better be gripping like a pitbull otherwise it'll be unrecoverable.
might be on the wrong track, though?
steve
ps - i'm talking about slippage at the hand, not through the belay device.
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Diablotin
Aug 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
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I find you a little bit pretentious to judge my belaying style without seeing what I do, but I suppose it is to be associated with my few post count. ;-)
What I was referring to is the fact that some people does whichever technique and their top hand will gently hold the brake hand while moving the brake hand (a simple squeezing of the finger instead of a good grabbing by the hand). I was just saying that it might be what the employee was referring to when he said that he wasnt holding the brake side.
And with a non-locking belay device, you must never release the brake side. I know that and I never release it, even if my right hand (Im right handed) momentarily leave the brake side to grab above my left hand. And sometimes, I slide it too. Keep in mind that I do such dangerous things on TR. On lead, my two hands are always the rope, top and brake side and they slide. lol
This reminds me why I never post. Being a frenchie I must make lots of errors which make you think that I dont know crap! ;-)
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I_do
Aug 6, 2009, 11:35 PM
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Diablotin wrote: I find you a little bit pretentious to judge my belaying style without seeing what I do, but I suppose it is to be associated with my few post count. ;-) What I was referring to is the fact that some people does whichever technique and their top hand will gently hold the brake hand while moving the brake hand (a simple squeezing of the finger instead of a good grabbing by the hand). I was just saying that it might be what the employee was referring to when he said that he wasnt holding the brake side. And with a non-locking belay device, you must never release the brake side. I know that and I never release it, even if my right hand (Im right handed) momentarily leave the brake side to grab above my left hand. And sometimes, I slide it too. Keep in mind that I do such dangerous things on TR. On lead, my two hands are always the rope, top and brake side and they slide. lol This reminds me why I never post. Being a frenchie I must make lots of errors which make you think that I dont know crap! ;-)
I think I belay like you as well. The thing is the slide option for TR seems safer, but it's not. They're both perfectly safe when executed well and will still hold if executed crap. From what I read on this site a lot of Americans are very anal about all kinds of practices which are perfectly normal in Europe practiced on a large skill and not causing any problems. Such as this method of belay or using a clove as your sole anchor point. To each their own I guess.
Cheers.
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USnavy
Aug 7, 2009, 10:06 AM
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nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method?
If your right hand doesn’t actually ever leave the rope then your method is fine.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Aug 7, 2009, 10:08 AM)
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jt512
Aug 7, 2009, 3:28 PM
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USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world.
Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean.
What's this, then, a disreputable gym?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc
Jay
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csproul
Aug 7, 2009, 4:02 PM
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jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. What's this, then, a disreputable gym? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc Jay
PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too?
(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 7, 2009, 4:03 PM)
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Carnage
Aug 7, 2009, 4:19 PM
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so i work at a gym and teach belaying and such. i've been belaying for a few years and this topic has always bothered me.
why the fuck does it matter if you pick one brake hand and stick with it? i can understand how some retard would completely let go of the rope and shit would happen, but seriously how many of you think when tr belaying you couldnt hold a fall with either hand. I personally thing you can switch hands all you want as long as you hold the brake strand.
as to the OP. you are at their gym, you have to do shit their way. belaying isnt too hard, it doesnt take long to become familiar with all of the different techniques.
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jt512
Aug 7, 2009, 4:36 PM
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csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. What's this, then, a disreputable gym? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc Jay Curious Jay, would you let the person in that video belay you like that?
Sure. Why not?
In reply to: PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too?
Um, which ocean?
Jay
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csproul
Aug 7, 2009, 4:46 PM
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jt512 wrote: csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. What's this, then, a disreputable gym? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc Jay Curious Jay, would you let the person in that video belay you like that? Sure. Why not? In reply to: PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too? Um, which ocean? Jay
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cjon3s
Aug 7, 2009, 5:29 PM
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I work at a gym as well. I teach the pull, pinch, slide method or b.u.s. or whatever you want to call it. One hand never leaves the rope.
QTM:
This method is simple. I don't even understand why you would want to keep switching hands back and forth. KISS. It's not hard.
Learn the right way and stick to it. You wouldn't believe the ways I've seen people attempting to belay. I guess multiple ways can be "right" but this is easy. I feel like Jay is gonna flame me on this.
Anyway, seatbeltpants, one of my coworkers has caught a fall after the rope slipped. Most people react by just letting the rope slide so that they do not burn. He, however, was able to regain control of the rope. He did burn his hands pretty badly but he caught his climber. I always wonder what I would do. I have seen people dropped in the gym and after looking at the belayer's hands realized he had no burns whatsoever. Kind of scary that he didn't try too hard to stop his climber.
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nika
Aug 7, 2009, 5:49 PM
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I_do wrote: Diablotin wrote: I find you a little bit pretentious to judge my belaying style without seeing what I do, but I suppose it is to be associated with my few post count. ;-) What I was referring to is the fact that some people does whichever technique and their top hand will gently hold the brake hand while moving the brake hand (a simple squeezing of the finger instead of a good grabbing by the hand). I was just saying that it might be what the employee was referring to when he said that he wasnt holding the brake side. And with a non-locking belay device, you must never release the brake side. I know that and I never release it, even if my right hand (Im right handed) momentarily leave the brake side to grab above my left hand. And sometimes, I slide it too. Keep in mind that I do such dangerous things on TR. On lead, my two hands are always the rope, top and brake side and they slide. lol This reminds me why I never post. Being a frenchie I must make lots of errors which make you think that I dont know crap! ;-) I think I belay like you as well. The thing is the slide option for TR seems safer, but it's not. They're both perfectly safe when executed well and will still hold if executed crap. From what I read on this site a lot of Americans are very anal about all kinds of practices which are perfectly normal in Europe practiced on a large skill and not causing any problems. Such as this method of belay or using a clove as your sole anchor point. To each their own I guess. Cheers.
I, too, have found an American/European divide on this question. You're TR-belaying the "European" way -- your gym wants you to TR-belay the "American" way. (Of course, not all Americans and Europeans belay using the method of their continent, but I've seen a general trend.) I don't think it's a question of the Euros being more lax (rightly or wrongly) than the Americans, though. I've heard Europeans argue that the American method of crossing under is "unsafe" for various reasons (you can't take in slack fast enough, the cross-under movement is awkward and will somehow throw the belayer off, etc.).
The truth is, though, that (a) either way is perfectly fine and (b) they're really not all that different. The corollary to that is that it's easy enough to switch what you're doing so that gym employees don't bug you. Problem solved.
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icedpulleys
Aug 7, 2009, 5:54 PM
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acorneau
Aug 7, 2009, 6:07 PM
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seatbeltpants wrote: hehehe. i figure you belay in a gym like you eat dinner at someone else's house - you're the guest so you do it by their rules even if you disagree. when you're out on your own you can do whatever the hell you want.
Quoted for the truth!
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jt512
Aug 7, 2009, 6:39 PM
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icedpulleys wrote: Gah. This thread is hilarious already. And it's still on the first page. I can't comment on your belaying skill without seeing it, but the technique that you're describing is known as B.U.S. (Brake, Under, Slide).
If it wasn't hilarious before, it is now that you've called it hilarious and then added to the hilarity by by confusing the OP's belay technique with the B.U.S.
Keep up the good work, n00b.
Jay
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jdefazio
Aug 7, 2009, 6:48 PM
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csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: csproul wrote: Curious Jay, would you let the person in that video belay you like that? Sure. Why not? In reply to: PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too? Um, which ocean? Jay No reason, I was just curious. Is not Australia at least partly in the Pacific ocean (as well as the Indian ocean)?
Wait, which part of the UK is in the Pacific? 
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qtm
Aug 7, 2009, 6:48 PM
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cjon3s wrote: QTM: This method is simple. I don't even understand why you would want to keep switching hands back and forth. KISS. It's not hard.
Give it a try. I find it's more efficient and faster than other methods. It really is simpler than other methods, once you get your mind over the "right hand is always the brake hand" idea.
Of course, for normal TR belaying, faster and more efficient aren't a big issue. I think it makes for a much smoother belay when running laps though. Still, not a real big deal.
It's safer, because the belayer always has a full hand, solid grip on the brake, and the rope is always close to being locked off.
Then, turning them into lead belay is much easier, they just have to reverse the action.
I think it's also good that people learn to belay in either direction, as once you get outside, you can't always stack the rope to one side.
Anyway, I just find it easier myself and I've taught some people who find it easier, but for others, easier is whatever they have gotten used to.
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