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what's the word on the madrocks?
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dencio


Dec 4, 2002, 11:25 PM
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what's the word on the madrocks?
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it's already dec. 6th so I guess the madrocks are already out in the market. who among you already got themselves a pair(s) and how are they?

if they're really as good as the ads say then they're really a bargain. just wanna get some feedback first though



funktimonious


Dec 5, 2002, 12:56 AM
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Everyone keeps asking this, christ! Do a forum search and find the millions of threads about these stupid shoes.


duskerhu


Dec 5, 2002, 1:34 AM
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Don't worry about funktimonious, he works for Boreal or something and is mad that knowones talking up HIS shoes...



dencio


Dec 5, 2002, 1:50 AM
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jeez, i didn't have to do a forum search, man, I just looked at every single one of the million forums you kindly mentioned about and guess what? the total number of people who actually have the shoes and posted so far was just one...

why do you think the shoes are stupid?

have you tried them also already?

can you give some more specific feedback aside from them being stupid?

if you hate posts like these so much, why do you even bother to reply? ( the suject was as clear as day on the subject line, if you hated it so much, why did you even bother clicking on it? )

ooops, I'm sorry. you must be one of them hotshot climbers who already own a dozen or so pairs of shoes and a truckload of shiny gear. I apologize for taking so much of your precious time by reading my post. I confess, I made you click on my topic. I made you read it and made you all mad. It is also probably my fault that something is stuck up your @$$. so sorry again, please forgive me...

i won't do it again








wilson


Dec 5, 2002, 4:54 AM
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I hate it when people make me open threads, but not as much as I hate it when people make me stick stuff up my a$$. I think it very mature, however, that dencio would own up to this "forced entry", as it were, and apologize. Three Cheers for dencio!!!

As far as the shoes go... I'm buying the Mugens this weekend and when I get em I'll shed some light on thier "stupidness" or lack thereof.

tommy wilson
-insert inspirational climbing phrase here-


[ This Message was edited by: wilson on 2002-12-05 04:55 ]


krack-head
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OH MAN!!! I sooooo don't want to be in this thread, but since you forced me............ I'm getting the "Sharks" and the "Hooker Zips" today. I'll keep you "posted" (get it hahahaha oh s--- I crack myself up!)

Matt


nite_climber


Dec 5, 2002, 9:31 AM
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Since you are forcing me to answer you,

I just got my Hooker Zips yesterday and climbing in them last nite at the gym. The edging on them is great, the rim on the inside is great for smearing off of tiny nubbins (on a climb where I generally skid my shoes off of, held like glue), and the heel hook feels more positive. I did not get a chance to work the rubber on top of the front of the foot though to see how well that sticks.

They are a hair small, but my concern is that they will not stretch since they have all of that rubber. We will see over time, but I wonder if I should have gone a half size bigger. Oh well, I think I have a new favorite shoe.

Climb well,




spydermonkey


Dec 5, 2002, 11:11 AM
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They are available to all Dec. 10.

spyder


funktimonious


Dec 5, 2002, 2:50 PM
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The shoes are f---ing dumb because, as I've said before, they're banking in gimicks to make money. Tons of new shoes come out every year, but no one gets all retarded over those because they're not full of useless crap that bored climbing-consumers can make out to be more than they actually are.

Whoa that's pretty cool, the "monitor" people censor profanity.

[ This Message was edited by: funktimonious on 2002-12-05 15:17 ]


galt


Dec 5, 2002, 3:13 PM
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You're still here funk? Wow... Thanks for the heads-up all who've tried the shoes. I look foward to reading more and trying the shoes for myself.


climbsomething


Dec 5, 2002, 3:26 PM
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The shoe geek is going to butt in here.

It's not every day that a whole new line of shoes comes out. Yes, every year all the big companies release a new model or 2, but this is an entirely new competitor. With exciting design and "shoe technology" and most importantly, a price that makes us all tingle. Obviously, someone stateside paid attention to the euro.com's that had been pulling U.S. consumers away from the ridonkulously overpriced version of the same product. And I for one appreciate that some shoe honcho is listening. My money talks.

So excuse us for drooling.

That said, I am going to shorelinemtn.com to pet the images of the Flash's. $69 climbing shoes. Aw, hellz.


repete


Dec 5, 2002, 5:27 PM
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does mad rock have a website? I havent ben able to find a site that shows more than the side wiew of the shoes... are there any?


heelhooker


Dec 5, 2002, 5:35 PM
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www.madrockshoes.com

(go figure?)

they have a "3D" view of the Hooker


josher


Dec 5, 2002, 5:35 PM
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http://www.madrockshoes.com/


fo_d


Dec 5, 2002, 5:46 PM
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The site is http://www.madrockshoes.com.

I ordered mine the other day and I can't wait to try them out and see how all them new gimicks work. I dont really think the features of the shoe are gimicks, rather they are new ideas, a zipper pocket on the side of the shoe for temperary storage of your chewing gum would be a gimick, a new sole that works well on edging and smearing is a usefull idea. That doesnt mean that it will work as advertised but I'm going to find out for myself, as someone else said, the price is right.

[ This Message was edited by: fo_d on 2002-12-05 17:47 ]


wlderdude


Dec 5, 2002, 6:21 PM
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Hey, I had some "Roos" tennis shoes in Junior High that had a zippered pouch in them. I kept a quarter in one in case I ever needed to make a phone call.

I guess since I never needed that quarter it was just a gimick?

I suppose the only way to know if these are features or gimicks on these shoes is to try them out on several different climbs. But speculating is always fun, so lets not stop now!


boz84


Dec 5, 2002, 8:20 PM
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They look like cool shoes...
When I'm on the lookout for new shoes im going to give these a second look.

Most importantly, id like to know how the rubber compares to other shoes: 5.10/sportivas?


dencio


Dec 5, 2002, 9:41 PM
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" The shoes are f---ing dumb because, as I've said before, they're banking in gimicks to make money. "

since when was making money, by banking on gimmicks or otherwise, dumb? All this time I thought making money was smart... imagine how dumb I feel now

"Tons of new shoes come out every year, but no one gets all retarded over those because they're not full of useless crap that bored climbing-consumers can make out to be more than they actually are."

maybe you could start a thread on these tons of other new shoes that are chock-full of useful crap so that us bored climbing consumers can get all retarded over them too.

but then again, you'd read it and then you would probably flame yourself



duskerhu


Dec 5, 2002, 10:58 PM
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That was good dencio!

Ordered mine Monday night... I'm getting the Sharks and the Mugens...

...all for the price of 1 pair of Anasazi Velcros...

duskerhu


rjtrials


Dec 5, 2002, 11:06 PM
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(drool)aaaauuuuugggghhhhhhhh mugen's (/drool)

i ordered mine two weeks ago and madrock has informed me i have to wait another week or two!! the OUTRAGE. oh well, thats the price i have to pay for kick @$$ shoes

rj


funktimonious


Dec 6, 2002, 12:29 AM
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You all are so blind to your own weaknesses!


duskerhu


Dec 6, 2002, 2:00 AM
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funkti, why don't you just go away and wallow in your sorrow over your old re-soled Boreals...

There must be some other thread or topic you can boost your post count on and leave us to smear in the glory of our on-coming Mad Rocks!

If you hate them so much, WHY do you keep coming back here for more information on them?


wilson


Dec 6, 2002, 3:49 AM
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"You all are so blind to your own weaknesses"[i/]
Yes. Buying cheaper shoes with an apparent innovation (or two) is weak indeed. I realize that your referring to our seemingly puppet-like response to "hype" and "advertisement", but the fact remains that no other shoe company is making a better offer. The worst thing that will happen here is increased competition that will lower shoe prices across the board.

tommy wilson
blind consumer


kurtneis


Dec 6, 2002, 5:18 AM
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word up dencio how are people sizing them and is it working? thanks

[ This Message was edited by: kurtneis on 2002-12-06 05:24 ]


curt


Dec 6, 2002, 5:36 AM
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I was told by Joe at Mad Rock that the sizes should correlate to similar 5.10 models, since the same company used to make the lasts for 5.10.

Curt


moeman


Dec 6, 2002, 6:33 AM
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Lets face it, even if these "gimmicks" don't mean anything and they are just average shoes, it is still a smokin' deal. They're dirt cheap, a neccesity to people like me, a high school student with next to no cash. And if some of "gimmicks" do work, you have found the best deal in the universe.

Good Shoes + Low Price= Hell YEAH!


epic_ed


Dec 6, 2002, 7:11 AM
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Funk -- have you tried the shoes? No? Cool, then we've established that you have nothing to offer to this particular thread. Thanks for playin'.

Ed


josher


Dec 6, 2002, 7:58 AM
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the whole climbing shoe industry started as a gimmick. You think five-ten and there new mesas with a fiber glass mid-sole isnt a gimmick. Heck, I bet the first slipper was scoffed at.


mclee


Dec 6, 2002, 9:37 AM
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I got my Hooker zips a couple nights ago and wore them in the gym last night. They outperform my Katanas!!! I'd love to get my Katanas re-soled with Mad Rock rubber. Only downside to the Hooker is that the dye from the suede stains your feet. No biggie, though. I'm thoroughly impressed with the overall performance of the shoe. They do run a little small, so try them on in the store before buying them online.


funktimonious


Dec 6, 2002, 9:46 AM
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Round Four...Ding!
There are too many typos. and faulty statments for me to adress. If you all were to take a step back and look at yourselves, you would see how you've swallowed the hook, line and sinker that Mad Rock casted out into the consumer sea. None of you will climb better because of the shoes, and none of you will save more money over comparable, if not better shoes at the same price from disscounted Boreals/ Five-Tens/ LaSports....

--Peace.


pbjosh


Dec 6, 2002, 9:54 AM
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funktimonious,

For what it's worth, I found at least 6 grammatical and spelling errors in your last post. Ding.

On the flip side, these are cheap shoes and I'm keen to try them out.

And on the subject of gimmicks:

Quote:
the whole climbing shoe industry started as a gimmick. You think five-ten and there new mesas with a fiber glass mid-sole isnt a gimmick. Heck, I bet the first slipper was scoffed at.


This is one gimmick that works fricking wonders. The Mesas are a revolution in edging power as far as I'm concerned. I don't work for 5.10 but I kept hearing things about these so I picked up a pair after getting destroyed on a Tuolomne 5.11 edging/smearing nightmare. On horrid dime-edge laced slabs that would normally be fingernail wrecking, smearing testpieces, you can edge your way up, not believing what you're standing on. On pure friction routes (more Joshua Tree style), they're too stiff, making them (for me at least), very much a specialized shoe. However, if it's edging you want, it's edging you'll get.

josh


mclee


Dec 6, 2002, 10:05 AM
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What's a faulty statment? Oh, you mean faulty statement?!?!?!

Learn how to spell, then come back and state your opinion...


funktimonious


Dec 6, 2002, 10:32 AM
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I hope everyone is going to post pictures of them climbing sssooooo much better with these shoes. I expect a bunch of 12's and 13's sent based solely on the fact they were wearing Mad Rock's.

DING.

--Peace.


funktimonious


Dec 6, 2002, 10:32 AM
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I hope everyone is going to post pictures of them climbing sssooooo much better with these shoes. I expect a bunch of 12's and 13's sent based solely on the fact they were wearing Mad Rock's.

DING.

--Peace.


josher


Dec 6, 2002, 10:53 AM
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Quote:There are too many typos. and faulty statments for me to adress.

nice!


josher


Dec 6, 2002, 10:57 AM
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all I was saying about gimmicks is thats what makes them stand out from others. Gimicks are good! Power door locks in your car was a gimmick. If some one comes up with a better shoe, why bash the idea of innovation.


epic_ed


Dec 6, 2002, 2:15 PM
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Uh, does anyone have anything useful to say about the shoes yet? I know..I've slammed Funktimonious too, but most of us are in agreement that he hasn't used them and, in fact, will never own a pair. So, has anyone actually climbed in them yet?

Ed


alanshearer


Dec 6, 2002, 2:36 PM
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But the real question is: will a pair of madrocks increase my chances of getting laid?


mclee


Dec 6, 2002, 2:46 PM
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I posted about my experience with the shoes (look at page 2). Love my Mad Rock Hooker Zips!!! Can't wait to take them outside, although in Oregon, it f****** too cold to climb...Maybe when I hit Red Rocks in the springtime...

[ This Message was edited by: mclee on 2002-12-06 14:49 ]


stormannorman


Dec 6, 2002, 3:46 PM
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Just bought my Hooker zips yesterday and played in them in my garage last night. They performed great and am looking forward to climbing this weekend outside, it is going to be sunny and 50 in Portland! Last weekend before the rain hits!


moeman


Dec 6, 2002, 3:59 PM
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funktimonious- you are a total asshole. No one said that they would suddenly become climbing god by wearing those shoes. All anyone said is that they look like they have good potential to help w/ foot work etc. It seems to me that they will be no etter than top of the line shoes already on the market. However, they are half the price, making fabulous shoes available to everyone, no just people with plenty of cash on hand.


dencio


Dec 6, 2002, 10:04 PM
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you know what's stupid?

this thread

you know why?

I'm pretty sure you already know why not unless you're so dense

I really don't mind being contradicted. I really don't. As a matter of fact I happen to appreciate a good debate. What I do hate is being contradicted with the use of stupidly flimsy arguments. Being an asshole while you're at it just makes things worse.

you even had the nerve to say that
(sic)"There are too many typos. and faulty statments for me to adress"

First of all, this site was not put up for people to (sic)"adress" everybody else's incorrect spelling or grammatical errors, both of which were noticably abundant in your posts, by the way.

And for the love of all things good, you could also do a big favor to the english language, the efforts for world peace and just about everybody else for that matter if you would please stop bastardizing the word peace in your posts because it clearly doesn't stand for who you are and what you beleive.

Could you also clarify something for me? If you just hate this thread so much, why in the world do you keep on coming back when it's so freakingly obvious that nobody gives a flying fig what you say?

Craving for attention?

Or didn't you get hugged when you were a kid?

Or you just plain not getting any?

[ This Message was edited by: dencio on 2002-12-06 22:07 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dencio on 2002-12-06 22:21 ]


funktimonious


Dec 6, 2002, 11:26 PM
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Yo,
I don't really care about the shoes, I just like seeing everyone flip their lid so easily.

--Peace.


curt


Dec 7, 2002, 12:50 PM
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I just got a pair of Mad Rock shoes in the mail yesterday. I got the Phoenix, because they are the stiffest model offered by Mad Rock & I don't climb in real soft shoes anymore. By the way, they are not all that stiff. My regular shoe size is 9 1/2 to 10, depending on the manufacturer. These Phoenix shoes are 8 1/2 and are fairly tight on me now. They are fairly comfortable, though. They are unlined, so I suspect they will stretch a fair bit.

I am going to take them out on the rock tomorrow and I will post my initial opinion as to how they perform afterwards.

Curt


Partner phaedrus


Dec 7, 2002, 1:11 PM
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Stopped by Wilderness Exchange Unlimited (on Platte St in Denver, for those of you in the area), who as far as I know are the only ones in the Denver area that will be carrying Mad Rocks. Cliff, one of the employees, tried out the Hookers the other night at the gym and said they performed great. I'm getting a pair of Hookers and a pair of the Sharks. I decided to pass on the Hooker Zips mostly because when I'm out in Utah or even some the more desert areas of the West, I don't want to deal with dust/grit getting into the zippers.

I took a look at the shoes and they look interesting. Decided to try the Sharks mostly because I don't currently own a pair of slippers, and for the price, I figured now would be a good time to try them.

Both pairs of shoes retail for roughly the same price as the Boreals I bought for my son.

Since I already own a pair of 5.10 Spires (from back in the day when they were green) and a pair of La Sportiva Cliffs, it will be interesting to see how the Mad Rocks perform against the other two. Yeah, I know that the Spire and Cliff are both all around shoes and the Hooker and Shark are more specialized, but you know what I mean.

At any rate, I'm getting mine on Tuesday and I'll most likely post my comments on them a few days later, once I've given them a good workout.


stormannorman


Dec 7, 2002, 5:13 PM
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Got to use my Hooker Zips today! They did perform great, I was able to stand on the smallest edge with confidence, my friends kept peeling off of them. I tried a heel hook and was able to rest my heel up on the edge with no effort, those ridges really work! I really liked the way they fit on my foot, I only went down 1 shoe size and they are perfect, and when I get to the top of the climb I just unzip and relax, I am glad I got the zipper ones. Who would have thought you could climb in Oregon in Dec. with a t-shirt on.


billcoe_


Dec 7, 2002, 9:37 PM
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Good to hear these shoes are performing so well for everybody.

funktimonious must climb barefoot and doesn't want to hear about shoes. I use to climb barefoot too, funk: until one day I peeled from up high whilst bouldering. Ouch.

I have worn through my shoes (although I reglued the rands on these 5.10s while in Red Rocks last month after picking up some cement in the Home Depot in Las Vegas) and need new shoes.

Looked at the Newtons: but the 5.10 poor quality reputation is too much to overcome while looking at the $137 price tag in the only store in the area that had them. I too will go to the local store and probably buy a pair of Mads.

Better than climbing barefoot again funtomonious.


I'm cheap so that bodes well.

Really like to hear how the Phoenixs' work for you curt. Let us know, that's the shoe I want to try.

regards:

Bill



nite_climber


Dec 8, 2002, 7:11 AM
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I have been reading this thread and laughing how sensitive we all are. I have tried them and find they edge well and the sole helps me stick some smears that the "classic" shoe has problems with.

The shoes will not give you more sex appeal (damn!!!, worth the price their) nor will you suddenly be climbing 5.14. The shoes, coupled with proper foot work, will help you get thru SOME cruxes you may not have the strength for because you can smear or edge something that you could not before. HOWEVER, it is the proper use of the shoe that gets you thru it.

The only shoes that would help me bump up a few grades may be anti-gravity boots. Since Madrock, or none of the other manufacturers, has come out with such a shoe, I guess training and practice are the only things that are going to make me better.

Climb well,



collegekid


Dec 8, 2002, 10:45 AM
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hmmmm...

I am intrigued...the shoes look way cool, and all the "gimmicks" look like ideas that solve problems i've had with my 5.10 shoes.
(heel pops off during heel hook, no rubber on sides of shoes for squeeze moves, and stretching of unlined leather). I like the dual density sole...

Now the dilemma: I work at sport chalet, and i can get a pair of moccasyms (my favorite) for 50 bucks. Maybe i can get them to start carrying madrocks.


[ This Message was edited by: collegekid on 2002-12-08 10:46 ]


gearweenie


Dec 8, 2002, 11:43 AM
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I am climbing in the Hooker Zip and am very happy with the shoes. The hooker sole does work in tiny smears and edges. I find myself using the top of my shoes more and more, the heel hook is usefull even though I am not using it all the time I can see where someone climbing hard overhangs would use it allot. The Rubber is Stickier than any other rubber I have used. I think our Poster friend Funkymonius is either young, stupid, inexperienced, has not tried the shoes or working for one of the other shoe companies. These shoes are going to change the market and they way we climb in a very good way. I don't understand the hostility from people who have not tried them.

Oh Yea, I fould several other posts from people who have been climbing in them and like the shoes.

[ This Message was edited by: gearweenie on 2002-12-08 13:21 ]


curt


Dec 8, 2002, 7:34 PM
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OK, here goes--

The Mad Rock Phoenix shoe review.

I took my new pair of Mad Rock Phoenix shoes out to Oak Flats today for some bouldering on real rock. I used the shoes on boulder problems from V0 to V5 or so in difficulty, some requiring quite delicate footwork.

First of all, the Mad Rock Phoenix shoes are quite comfortable, even if sized tight. The shape of the toe is quite good for me. It is not curved way over and pointed where your big toe is--rather the toe is somewhat rounded, which I like because my middle toe is longer than my big toe. Shoes built on severly curved lasts do not fit me well. So they passed the comfort test for me.

Oak flats (for those not familiar) is an area of volcanic rock type outside of Phoenix that requires various footwork technique. There are pockets to toe into, small edges, friction places, etc. The Phoenix shoes edge very well, in spite of not being all that stiff. I could toe into all but the smallest toe pockets with these shoes as well. There were only a very few places where a more pointy toe shape would have helped for "front pointing" but then I would like the shoes less, for reasons of fit explained above.

Last of all--the rubber. The Mad Rock Phoenix does not have the "dual-density" sole found on the more advanced Mad Rock shoes. Instead, all of the sole is made from what they call "formula 5" rubber. Mad Rock advertizes this to be their harder rubber composition, that is stickier than 5.10's rubber. I would say that this rubber seemed to me to be at least as good as the 5.10 C4 composition, from a performance standpoint. I have never used the 5.10 HF rubber, so someone else will have to offer their opinion on that comparison. Also, time will tell how both the rubber and the uppers of these will wear.

In summary, I like them a lot. Unless they fall apart quickly I think Mad Rock has a winner here. For the price, you can't beat them. I am thinking about trying their slipper (Shark) too. If I get some of those, I will post my review of that shoe here also.

Curt


duskerhu


Dec 8, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Very Nice curt; that's the best "review" on any Mad Rocks I've seen yet.

The following is what gearweenie had to say concerning his new Hooker Zips in another thread...
Quote:Heel fits better than any shoe I've ever owned... I've owned several five ten shoes. These fit about the same, but are a bit more comfortable in the heel. I can wear about a half size smaller in the Mad Rocks than I can in a Five Ten. I had some boreals and La Sportivas also but I have to go look and see how the sizing is, Seems different from model to model im my La Sportiva shoes. I can wear about 1 1/2 smaller than my street shoe in the Mad Rock. I bought 1 size smaller but could have went more.

GW

Thanks guys, I can't wait to get mine... I'll relay my opinion when they come in.

duskerhu


billcoe_


Dec 9, 2002, 1:13 PM
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Thank Curt (and everybody else too) for the honest open opinions of this shoe.

About a year ago: I e-mailed 5.10 that they needed to improve their quality or face a competitor that would steal their marketshare. (they must have been laughing at that, like who could have done it? Scarpa? Boreal? uhhh, no.)


Here it comes, and I think shoes will become better and we will benefit.
Bill


dencio


Dec 9, 2002, 2:45 PM
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thanks for all the great feedback guys!

I'm still anxious to hear from the people who got the mugens and the sharks though as these are the models I am leaning towards.

the general concensus seems to be that they fit really well in the heel. really interested if this is really the case even with the mugen.

what I'd really like to see is a point by point comparison between the mugen and anasazzi velcro, the shark and the moccasym

keep em coming guys

special mention to functimonious ( check out his harness thread ) for adding entertainment value to this thread ( 2340 views as of last count )



gearweenie


Dec 9, 2002, 6:04 PM
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Found this on another post from TRIASSIC in Prove Utah.

"I've climbed in a pair of Mugens from Mad Rock for 4 climbing days. One day bouldering in the gym and 3 days bouldering on sandstone near Joe's Valley. I've done around 120 problems in the shoes and they're super sweet. The heel hooking is awesome. I've done a V5 slab, a V4 roof crack, a V7 steep, and tons of other types of problems. They climb well on all angles. The shoes perform excellent and the price is great. Can't wait to try the Hookers! "

GW


markd


Dec 9, 2002, 6:15 PM
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I recently picked up a pair of the velcro Mad Rock shoes, not sure the name but they look very similair to the Anasazi's.

I think they are a good shoe for the money but they don't have the performance of the Anasazi(the shoe I'm used to). I find it harder to stand on small holds, or smears, as there not as soft or responsive as I would like, while climbing at your limit.

That being said, for the money you probably can't go wrong and they're only going to get better.



funktimonious


Dec 9, 2002, 6:22 PM
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it's a "k", not a "c".


Partner phaedrus


Dec 9, 2002, 6:26 PM
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I get my Hookers and my Sharks tomorrow. If I don't get outside before sunset, I'll be hitting the gym and will post my comments asap....

*feels like a kid at Christmas... what a geek*


coloradoclimber


Dec 9, 2002, 6:46 PM
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My hooker zips came today and they look so nice but there to small and i have to send them back and wait even longer to try them out. (tear tear) ohh wait They look awesome though.


timpanogos


Dec 10, 2002, 9:13 PM
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TRIASSIC is also one of the main men when it comes to climbing in Utah County - when it comes to gear or climbing from him - listen up.

Chad


dencio


Dec 10, 2002, 9:29 PM
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naah! from now on I'm only going to listen to functimonius and base all of my future climbing purchases only on what he says



gearweenie


Dec 10, 2002, 10:38 PM
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Found this, posted by Brogen on another thread
"I have been testing these shoes for the Mad Rock USA and they preform better than my "Old Favorites" Anasazi Laceups. I have been using the Hooker Zipper and the Mugen. I say these shoes are the greatest thing since sticky rubber"

GW


jmitch8119


Dec 11, 2002, 1:24 PM
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So are these shoes deffinetly worth trying out. They aren't expensive but $80 still puts a dent in your wallet, especially if your a broke student like myself. Also how does the mugen compare to the hooker, and lace ups compare to zippers or velcro? Any ideas? Thanks


calimouth


Dec 11, 2002, 1:48 PM
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ok, i'm definitely interested in these shoes, but i have one concern. Since the design of the sole has the whole hard and soft components, will the sole wear especially fast for gym climbing? My gym shoes wear faster more towards the balls of my feet, where the rubber on mad rocks is softer. I would use them outside, but some of us don't have the advantage of 60 degree winters.


curt


Dec 13, 2002, 5:31 PM
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calimouth,

If you are really concerned about the wear of the dual-density soles, get either the "Flash" or the "Phoenix" model. They have a sole made from only the harder type of rubber.

Curt


otherain


Dec 14, 2002, 10:42 AM
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Ok, you talked me into it. IM GETTING A PAIR.



thanks, ive been trying to find info about these shoes for days.


beethovenboy


Dec 14, 2002, 11:36 AM
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I'm with Alanshearer on this one!
Spiral out...


madriver


Dec 14, 2002, 4:21 PM
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Brian and D.C area climbers

SR Sterling has a pair of Mugens and the laceups (don't know which? sorry) in size 8 for demo ask Rob or somebody who knows and try them out. They look great and the people who could fit into them had good things to say...awesome edging and heel hooking, with really sticky rubber. Vic and I could not fit in them (not that I could climb in them) but check em out SR is probably going to buy them for rental! Bob D. tried the lace up, ask him hes a PRO!

Imelda "Vicky" Marcos

Remember "the best shoes are FREE!!!


jmitch8119


Dec 15, 2002, 8:51 PM
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Alright I gave in, I put my order in for the mugens. Im still pissed though, I prolly wont get them for another 7 or 8 days. bullsh*t, w/e though the best things come to those who wait. Ill post my review when I get them. Peace.


fo_d


Dec 16, 2002, 11:45 AM
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I wish it was only 7-8 days, its 2 weeks now and still no sign of my shoes

Les


Partner missedyno


Dec 16, 2002, 5:12 PM
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other threads about mad rock shoes:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=17088&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=19437&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=19224&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=17641&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=21354&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=20660&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=14845&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=20831&forum=40
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=21748&forum=23

this one has the most responses.... here's some other info. i'll lock the ones that are similar....


high_times


Dec 16, 2002, 5:33 PM
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I hate it when jack asses say there are soooo many threads on something and why don't you go look for it. Dude...the post wouldn't be up if the person found it so be a good lad and just give info...otherwise go beat off!!

Just my .02 on the matter that has nothing to do with the topic.


Partner missedyno


Dec 16, 2002, 5:41 PM
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i WAS giving the info so i don't have to do the search all over again every time one of these threads go up. i'll just consider this the main thread on mad rock shoes and tidy up the others. this does have the most responses and other info.

thanks for the sentiment though.


billcoe_


Dec 17, 2002, 7:29 AM
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Thank you for doing the research and the work Fawkes.

Realistically, it's probably time for those's of us interested in a pair of madrock shoes to quit talking about them and just go buy a pair.

Bill


Partner missedyno


Dec 17, 2002, 8:31 AM
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yeah, i was looking at their site..... there was a pair of slippers on there i thought looked cool, so if they were making shoes for 5.10, does that mean this should be good 5.10ish rubber?


jahmin


Dec 17, 2002, 8:49 AM
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once someone gets these and uses them for a while, please comment on the fit and the adaptation to your foot shape. I would have to believe that with all that rubber there will be minimal stretch (if any), so if it isn't a great fit right out of the box, it's never going to work. Please let everyone know after the break in period.


marmot


Dec 17, 2002, 8:59 AM
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Tried on the Hookers on Sat at a local shop (the only madrocks they had in as yet). Nomally wear a 9.5 street shoe (can go up to 10 or down to 9 depending on manufac). Tried on a 10.5 and they were still way to snug. I'll probably be checking out the other madrocks when the shop gets them in.


curt


Dec 17, 2002, 9:09 AM
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Jessica,

I have climbed outdoors with the Mad Rock Phoenix shoes for the last two weekends now--and once at the local bouldering gym.

The rubber on the Phoenix shoes is what Mad Rock calls "formula 5" which is the same rubber used on the outer part of the soles on the slippers and other shoes that have the "dual density" rubber soles.

The "formula 5" rubber seems to me to be at least as sticky as the 5.10 C4 rubber. It also holds small edges very well. I don't know how it will wear because the shoes are still too new to tell--but I will see.

I also have a pair of the slippers (Shark) coming, so I will see how these compare to the Phoenix, and will post something here.

Curt


bitterlotus


Dec 17, 2002, 10:18 AM
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Should be getting my Hooker Zips and my Sharks today!!! YAY!!! I'll be heading to the gym immediately! Keep you all posted.


Partner missedyno


Dec 17, 2002, 10:25 AM
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hey curt thanks for the info... i've been looking for another pair of slippers to spend my money on... i was hoping to try out this 5.10 rubber but moccasyms are too wide for my feet. I hope that madrocks will be good for me.


Partner phaedrus


Dec 17, 2002, 5:41 PM
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My Hooker Laces arrived today. I wear a size 13 street shoe and ordered a size 11 figuring they'd stretch like my Sportiva Cliffs or my 5.10 Spires (I got the 5.10s in size 11.5). Had to use serious force to get the Hookers on my foot! I called the dealer who was very cool about exchanging them. Down side: I gotta wait longer before I get to try them. Up side: They're going to ship out my Sharks at the same time they re-send my Hooker Laces.

I ordered a size 12 for the Hookers and changed my order to a size 12 for the Sharks. Moral of the story: don't size Mad Rock shoes down too much when you get them.


data118


Dec 18, 2002, 10:32 AM
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Hey Bitter, I want my Hooker.


bitterlotus


Dec 18, 2002, 10:47 AM
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The shoe or the service??? Well, you're getting one of those for X-Mas so be patient!!!


curt


Dec 18, 2002, 6:03 PM
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Todd,

I think you are probably right on the sizing. My regular street shoe size is 10 and I ordered my Mad Rock Phoenix shoes in 8 1/2. They are pretty snug--getting OK though, since they do not have any lining or the rubber all over the toe. After discussions with Joe Garland at Mad Rock, I decided to order my slippers (Sharks) in size 9, thereby only going down one full size.

Curt


tyraidbp


Dec 18, 2002, 6:42 PM
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I have to tell all of you that after reading through 6 pages of postings in just this one topic and a new companies website, THIS IS CRAZY!!! Does anyone here realize that the shoes that seem to be new are the same things as 5.10 has produced? All they have done is give you the "gimmick" to buy them. Its just like REI doing knock-offs for so long of other companies products. If you want to buy things that are stolen designs or knock-offs thats cool. Just so all of you know, you can pick up North Face shells(knock-offs) for about $45-$75 each. Only difference is the zipper is on the opposite side. The quality on these is better than the real deal. Just thought you should know, and dont ask me where to get them because I personally dont support things such as that. 5.10 went to a company that is setup to produce a certian product, settled on a price, paid them for their services and now pay the price for not building everything in-house.


funktimonious


Dec 18, 2002, 7:00 PM
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I'm not really sure what you're saying, but i think you're on my side...at least with the gimmick talk.

--Peace


rockinrobby


Dec 18, 2002, 7:18 PM
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5-10 shoes------$140.00

Mad Rocks------$85.00

Savings--------$55.00

Enough Said!!!!!


crux_clipper


Dec 18, 2002, 7:29 PM
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When i first saw the shoes in a mag, i thought to myself, "yeah, thats a gimmick" Hearing what people have said now, i believe the 'gimmick' has paid off or Madrock. It obviously works.

However, you have to wonder, as pointed out above with the price difference.....the madrocks obviously have had a lot more R&D needed, and the costruction and materials used seem complex, so why are they still cheaper then 5.10's? It seems to me that something is missing in the equation.


jmitch8119


Dec 18, 2002, 10:28 PM
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How do the mugens compared to other mad rock shoes. and how do they stack up against the anasazis, dragons, and v10?

Thanks


bitterlotus


Dec 19, 2002, 2:33 PM
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DUDE!!! The hookers are not yellow -- they're LIME GREEN!!!!

And they're CRAZY small! Actually, they're narrow and I would say they are about 1/2 a size smaller than 5.10 sizing, maybe a full size, if you factor in the narrowness.

Returning them today.


data118


Dec 20, 2002, 6:13 AM
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SWEET! Yeah what's da dilly on that lime green color? And they're not just crazy small, they're Mad small.

I wear a size 8.5, 5.10 spire, had to get a size 9 Hooker lace up. I think even with the 9 it will still be a tighter than my 5.10.

Hi Em.


Partner one900johnnyk


Dec 20, 2002, 7:35 AM
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crux: it's obvious to me what has been missing: a reasonably priced brand of rock shoes. i mean the margins on rock shoes are really high and by lowering their margins madrock is going to get tons more volume and probably make more money when word gets out that these shoes are just as good if not better than their higher priced counterparts. hopefully this will lead to lowered prices by all shoe manufacturers when they start to lose business. if you don't think they are watching madrocks market share gains closely, you underestimate the demand for these things.


curt


Dec 20, 2002, 8:11 PM
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The sizing of the Mad Rock shoes does need to be addressed. I have a size 10 street shoe size. I also have a pair of 8 1/2 Mad Rock Phoenix shoes, that are pretty snug--but OK. Today, I got a pair of size 9 Mad Rock Sharks that are seriously small. At first, I didn't think there was any way my feet would go into those things, but finally they did. I almost had to give myself a hernia to pull them on though. I guess slippers have to fit tight. I will report back on how they perform after I use them this weekend.

Curt


Partner phaedrus


Dec 22, 2002, 8:26 PM
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Got mine in on Friday, tried them out yesterday. (I have a pair of Hooker Laces and a pair of Sharks.)

I like them a lot, performance-wise... they worked great; definitely some of the best shoes I've used. The rubber is nicely sticky, and the dual-sole rubber is a nice touch.

My only complaint is the sizing. Originally, I got them 2 sizes under my street shoe, and they were WAY too small. (I wear a size 13.) I had to return them and got size 12s. The 12s are still pretty small- they hurt to walk around in, at least at the gym, but while climbing, they work pretty well. I wore them for quite a while and they stretched a bit and felt better, but then I took them off to go get food and when I got back, they were seriously uncomfortable again (I'd heard the rubber on top will make them go back into their original shape.) I'm thinking about maybe trying a 12.5 if the situation doesn't improve.

Between the two, I like the Sharks a bit better, in large part due to the comfort. (The Sharks win in this category.)

BUT... performance-wise, I couldn't ask for better. The top rubber makes toe-hooking a snap, and the ridged heel makes heel-hooking pretty easy as well. While I don't see myself running up any 5.15s in the near future because of the shoes, they do help my performance a bit, just due to the dual density rubber and the stickiness of it.

Overall: I like 'em... A LOT!! Go buy 'em.


jmitch8119


Dec 24, 2002, 10:01 PM
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still waiting for my mugens. any reviews on them? or anyone try them out yet?


curt


Dec 25, 2002, 10:15 AM
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Everyone,

I previously wrote a review of the Mad Rock Phoenix shoes and was going to also do a review of the Sharks.

However, Todd, above has already said most of the things that I would have put in my review. So I will not do a complete review. I would emphasize the sizing issue again, though. The Shark is not sized at all like the Phoenix. My 8 1/2 phoenix shoes are much larger than my size 9 sharks. For a size 10 foot like mine, the size 9 Sharks are barely possible to get on. I am willing to bet that 9 1/2 sharks would still be pretty tight. You may want to take that into account when ordering.

Having said that, the Sharks are not too uncomfortable--even when really tight. And, now that I have put them on and taken them off a few times, they are a little easier to get into.

They do perform very well, as the Phoenix shoes do. For a relatively soft slipper, they edge well--at least when they are as tight as mine are. Overall, they are the best slippers I have had in a long time. I prefer them over the LaSportiva Cobra and the Red 5.10 slipper that (for some reason) I can't remember the name of.

Curt


data118


Dec 27, 2002, 11:05 AM
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Anyone else get them for Christmas?


moeman


Dec 27, 2002, 11:16 AM
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Is the Moccasyn the red 5.10 shoe you're refering to?


Partner phaedrus


Dec 27, 2002, 4:41 PM
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Took the Mad Rocks outside today... well, I took the Sharks out. Hit Flagstaff Mountain in Boulder and did some bouldering... the Sharks were GREAT. The heel gave me a nice edge on some hooks I was doing, and in general, they out performed my other shoes I'd brought along.

They seem to be breaking in a bit better since it wasn't painful to wear them this time, though I still can't walk around in them for long periods.

I continue to be happy... even more so since it looks like I may not have to exchange them again.


curt


Dec 27, 2002, 5:12 PM
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moeman,

Yes. I think the red 5.10 slippers that I had before were Moccasyms. Thanks for jogging my memory.

Curt


naitch


Dec 27, 2002, 7:51 PM
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Well my son's and mine MadRocks came today and I thot I'd report. My son got size 7 Mugens and I got 8.5 Hooker Zips. The observations that others have stated about sizes running small seem true for us. My son normally wears 6.5-7s in Boreals and he felt like the Mugens were to small especially since he's growing. I normally wear a size 9 5.10 for comfort. I wanted a bouldering shoes that was tight(er). However the 8.5 Zips were too snug for me. They are also a bit on the narrow side. I probably could have gotten by with them but my fear was the all rubber toe not stretching and conforming to my foot.

My son tried my 8.5 zips, and while they are a slight but too large, he thought they were right if they were going to last him through the next climbing season. Actually he raves about the fit. He has only used them on our home wall but was standing with no problem on the tiniest of nubbins. Unfortunately, I'll have to send back his to exchange for another pair for me. I'll probably go with an 8.5 Flash since it's all leather and will stretch and conform to my foot.

The only negative so far, is not being able to try them on and fit them at a local shop around here.

Naitch

They also come in a spiffy nylon mesh bag.


topher


Dec 29, 2002, 10:07 AM
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one thing i would watch with the rubber on the top is for delaming, thats the reson why 5.10 stoped making rock socks, is that they could never find a way to keep the rubber on the top of the shoe from delaming, this is because when you put the shoes on and off they strech and so does the glue but after doing this a few times the glue starts to break down and the rubber starts to peal. but i hope that the mad rocks work out. i dont like the idea of ripping off other companys but i think that there is enough diffrence between the two companys. i personaly am not going to run out and get a pair, because i feel that the reson the shoes are so cheap is so that the company doesnt have to pay of r&d but rather they get to make some money from it. i belive that after a few months of the cheap prices and after all the problems are fixed i would amagine a large price increase. any way good luck to all who have a paire and keep me mods.php#60">posted on the shoes.


funktimonious


Dec 29, 2002, 12:59 PM
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YES ^^^^

And everyone seems to be making a huge deal about how sticky the rubber is. Almost all climbing shoes are sticky when you first get them. The real test of the rubber quality will be after a few dozen days of climbing. Thatís the problem with these short term test groups...they don't say much about the shoe really.


madrock


Jan 3, 2003, 3:26 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback, and e-mails.

Joe
Mad Rock


fo_d


Jan 3, 2003, 4:00 PM
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Joe, I'd like to be on here telling people about my new Mugan's that I ordered on Dec. 2ed, but the UPS guy passed my house again today. I got to see my partners Mugen's Monday so I thought mine would be in soon, NOT.

Oh well, I'll keep waiting, I'm pretty sure they'll be worth it.

Les


stardust44


Jan 3, 2003, 4:07 PM
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Hey, I want to avoid sending these shoes back because I really really need a new pair of shoes like right now ... all mine need resoling.

I e-mailed the mad rock dudes, but they haven't responded. The shoe I have that fits me best are my size 36 (size 5.5 in U.S) five ten diamonds. They started out tight, but now are perfect after going through lots of multipitches. I was thinking of getting the Mugen. What size do you all recommend? My street shoe size is 6.5-7.

Thanks!


nite_climber


Jan 3, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Just so you know, the rubber is stitched on the top, so delam problem solved. I think they have the R&D thing down more than you think, at least when I look at the shoe I see a high quality shoe. Just my opinion and to let Topher know! Been using the shoes pretty hard for a month now, and still look good and stick like glue.

My $1.00 - $0.98


curt


Jan 3, 2003, 5:27 PM
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stardust44,

If the Mugens are sized like the Mad Rock Phoenix shoes, you can go down 1 to 1 1/2 sizes, and they will be snug. If, however, they are sized more like the Mad Rock Shark, you will only want to go down 1/2 size from your street shoe size--or possibly 1 full size, if you want them REALLY tight.

Curt


stardust44


Jan 5, 2003, 1:47 PM
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Ok, thanks .
But does anyone know if they are sized more like the sharks or the pheonix, as Curt mentioned?


cruzinsouthoc


Jan 6, 2003, 6:57 PM
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Does anyone know if Mad Rock shoes are going to be stocked by any shops in So Cal? ie, Outland Mountainshop in Pasadena or Nomad Ventures in Joshua Tree? The guys at Mad Rock said the "chain" stores like REI and Sport Chalet won't have them for quite some time..if they even decide to carry them at all.

I'd really like to try them on to see how they feel before deciding whether or not to buy a pair.


wv5ten


Jan 6, 2003, 7:00 PM
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any beta on the Flash's? I've been looking at them. more than the others


Partner one900johnnyk


Jan 6, 2003, 7:53 PM
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i'm gonna get the flashes too but can't find anyone else who has them. wanna take the plunge together and talka bout how much they suck or rule together? haha! i'm gonna order tomorrow. good luck


wv5ten


Jan 6, 2003, 8:40 PM
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im still in ordering limbo lol. How are you sizing yours? I wear 12 and my Spires are 11s, think I'll be safe with the same deal? (one size down), keep in touch and let me know whats up. I'll probably order mine between tomorrow and within a week


Partner one900johnnyk


Jan 7, 2003, 5:49 AM
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i'm a 12 too and i plan on ordering an 11, b/c las time i ordered an 11 (red chillis) they were too tight and i had to send them back. but i have decided i don't really give a damn about pain, really. i thought of ordering two sizes and sending one back but i don't know if i should order the 10.5 or 11.5 so i'm just gonna cross my fingers on the 11. do you do lots of climbing in wv over winter or is it way too cold/?


data118


Jan 7, 2003, 8:15 AM
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I wear a size 8.5 in the Spires. Orderes 8.5 Hooker lace and was way too tight.


bitterlotus


Jan 7, 2003, 8:29 AM
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Sent mine back also -- ordered them a whole size larger than my 5.10s, and still think they might be too tight.

Will be getting them on the 13th, Data!


data118


Jan 7, 2003, 8:52 AM
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The 13th!


cerikpete


Jan 7, 2003, 2:01 PM
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So you're gonna want to order these about the same as your normal shoe size??

Just curious...


wv5ten


Jan 7, 2003, 2:17 PM
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i emailed madrocks about their sizing as compared to 5.10, but i have yet to get a reply. :/


Partner one900johnnyk


Jan 7, 2003, 2:27 PM
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hey i just ordered the 11s ... they will probably take a while to get here but i should be able to report back to you in about a week or so.


fo_d


Jan 7, 2003, 2:31 PM
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what's the word on the madrocks? [In reply to]
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This sux, I'm getting real tired of "ordering limbo" I can even get any info on the status of my order.

Les


mother_sheep


Jan 7, 2003, 2:46 PM
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Is there somewhere I can find a side by side comparison of madrocks vs. 5.10 vs. La Sportiva vs. Boreal vs. everything else? Climbing magazine usually does a yearly shoe review right?



wv5ten


Jan 7, 2003, 8:01 PM
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yeah, more than anything else i want to see a 5.10 vs madrock size comparison.

wait...does that mean i have to change my name


wv5ten


Jan 8, 2003, 8:08 PM
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email responded. I wear an 11 5.10 spire, in the MR Flash, i would probably wear a 10.5 or 11. straight from Joe @ madrocks.


heelhooker


Jan 9, 2003, 9:03 PM
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i ordered mugens today

they were in stock and going in the mail tomorrow

a report to follow soon, i hope


cerikpete


Jan 14, 2003, 2:08 PM
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wv5ten-- thanks for the info.


kurtneis


Jan 14, 2003, 3:00 PM
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why keep reading the forum if all you have to say is negative, funk. be a good little biotch and shut your face!


gblauer
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Jan 14, 2003, 3:17 PM
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I ordered them, I received them, I sent them back. They were hideously SMALL. I am awaiting a new pair of Hookers any day now...


climbjs


Jan 14, 2003, 3:39 PM
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I'm looking for a "Mythos-like" shoe for cracks, not lined with a midsole, what do you suggest for MadRock?


tanner


Jan 14, 2003, 4:39 PM
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Are they avalable in Canada?(ship via dog sled)
Do they have a shoe that would climb crack well and face/slab well?


Partner one900johnnyk


Jan 14, 2003, 6:25 PM
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tthey do, go to their website madrockshoes.com and if the descriptions don't answer you they answer emails readily. i just got my flashes today and they fit great and when i walk w/them on my kitchen floor it feels/sounds like it does when you walk on a sticky floor. i just cleaned that floor, i will love these shoes!


data118


Jan 14, 2003, 8:54 PM
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I tried on the 8.5 hooker lace, too small. Returned and got a full size larger, 9.5. It was same fit! The 9.5 felt exactly like the 8.5. WTF!!!


nickb


Jan 14, 2003, 10:10 PM
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Mad Rock Muggens 1 size larger that 5.10


heelhooker


Jan 17, 2003, 2:53 PM
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  my mugens arrived today
i am really excited
really i am
they are just soooooo tight!

ok, i'll admit these are the first shoes i've owned... and I haven't climbed in them but for a couple of minutes on my way back to work from lunch.
I wear a 10.5 in all of my running shoes. I tried on Spires at 44 and LS Focus at 43 and they were newbie tight/comfortable. I ordered size 10s in the mugens with the salesperson suggesting i go 9.5. The 10s scrunched my toes numbingly hard and they are way narrow... and i have the narrowest foot to start with. I think with a little stretch/give i can acclimate to them, maybe.
"They're supposed to be tight!?!"

ok, that's my scoop on sizing.
performance review to follow



[ This Message was edited by: heelhooker on 2003-01-17 14:55 ]


mother_sheep


Jan 17, 2003, 3:01 PM
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Last night I climbed in a pair of hookers and a pair of Flashs. The hookers seemed to form well to my feet and were pretty comfortable. The sole was interesting but I couldn't really see any benefits to the design. I was only climbing in the gym though. I think for the money, the shoe is pretty good. The Flash, I really didn't like them at all. They were waaaaaay to rigid. I would not want to climb in them outside. Nothing seems to beat my 5.10 mocs. That's just my personal opinion though.


madrock


Feb 6, 2003, 5:16 PM
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Check out this link. Mad Rock just won the best new product award for the footwear catagory at ISPO. ISPO is the largest sportings goods tradeshow in the world.

http://www.ispo.de/ target="_new" href="http://www.rockclimbing.com/site/edit/mods.php#24">admin/presse/tool/texte/26eiswi03OutdoorAwards.doc

Joe Garland
Mad Rock


marco_steve


Feb 7, 2003, 4:11 PM
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I got a pair of the Hooker lace-ups about a month ago, and I really like them. A lot. They hurt quite a bit to break in, but they stretch a LOT (I sized down 1-1.5 from street shoe and they're almost too big). I like how they fit my foot, which doesn't fit well at all into the Anasazi last that 5.10 uses. Great grip - in the gym, they stand solidly on holds that I wouldn't even look at before. Edging is fine. I've been spoiled as far as edging goes by my old Rock Socks, but these can keep up to them well enough. Slingshot heel hurts for a while, but that loosens up too. Umm.. what else could I say.. Other than a couple initial fit problems (slingshot heel, tongue stitching) that go away when the shoes wear in, I can't find a problem with these shoes yet. The only beef - more of an inconvenience, really - is that the lace is pretty short and so I can't really open the shoes up to put them on (I tie knots in the ends of the laces so they don't pull out). Inconsequential, really.
Anything I left out, just let me know.

--
~Mike

[ This Message was edited by: marco_steve on 2003-02-07 16:12 ]


mowz


Feb 7, 2003, 8:01 PM
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They are for real. Read my thread rocking mads.

-Mowz


tanman1337


Feb 8, 2003, 2:33 PM
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for boldering and sport usage, should i get the mugen or the shark?

-frc


cerberus


Feb 10, 2003, 4:06 PM
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for bouldering and gym usage which pair do you think is best? Also, how do the hookers compare to anasazi's?


data118


Feb 11, 2003, 9:23 AM
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Bittersweetgear is having a sale on Madrocks. I think 10% off.


gearweenie


Feb 13, 2003, 7:37 PM
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Bitter sweet is not having a sale, I checked.


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