I usually don't start arguments like this but I'm just curios about what most people do. It came up in another discussion and it was said that your tie ins will wear out faster than your belay loop, depending on what you put the sling on. I always thought (and teach) that the tie ins are reinforced, specifically so that you can put nylon (rope and slings) on them without wearing them out too fast. USnavy argues that the belay loop can be rotated, keeping one area from getting stressed. This makes sense to me, and after thinking, I can see how the tie ins move every time you sit on your sling, causing more abrasion that your belay loop gets.

Usually my sling stays on my tie ins when I am doing single pitch stuff that I have to lower off or rappel. If I can walk off or am doing multi-pitch stuff, I keep just use my rope and a clove hitch to secure myself, and keep a sling or two over my shoulder to use when rapping or any other time I'd need them. In this case, i use my belay loop because it's easier.

More times than not though, I'm using my tie ins. I use my harness just about every day and the leg tie in point is wearing out. I thought this was from belaying, but maybe it's from putting my sling on the tie ins? What do you all think?

How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner.

Jay

our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters.

I assume you meant locking carabiner, but no, I don't need a biner hanging on the front of my harness. I girth hitch my PAS to the belay loop.

Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk.

How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner.

Jay

Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness?

Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap.

your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG

our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters.

do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice.

This is true. To confound the problem, he's neither consistently wrong or consistently right.

Pretty much makes it impossible to tell whether he's right or wrong for a beginner. Add to that with the authority he makes his frequently incorrect claims and you've got trouble.

Hell, if I were just starting up, I'd probably think he was on the same level of advice from the real deal. He is not. He's a perfect example of why you don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk.

Anyway this is what happened to my harness in nine months from attaching my slings to my tie in points:

[img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4548/1000559q.jpg[/img]

As you can see the reinforcement webbing has been completely destroyed on the bottom. Right now I am a year into having them attached to my belay loop and my belay loop still looks new. I have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop.

I have the right to criticize anyone or any qualified person and believe or not, I even criticized John Long for some of his BS on his anchor book, right here in RC.

Alright big boy, go get that drill and some of the home-depot SS bolt and get busy.

move it move it move it

We use custom cut titanium alloy stable bolts that are 40 kN test and more corrosion resistant then grade 317L or 2205 stainless steel. The last time I checked you were the one ghetto rigging your lines with substandard zinc plated stud bolts. That actually brings me to another question. Why do you bother bolting when you don't actually lead anything? Keep talking out of your ass, it brings my day some much needed laughter.

they call me MAJIDOIT not because i am an idiot. MAJIDOIT means MAJID + the IDIOT

Quickdraws and daisy chains are not remotely comparable.

You're right, one is useful and practical, the other isn't. The arguments for people carrying either a PAS, or a daisy seem to come down to a couple inches of flexibility whilst fucking around at an anchor. If an inch or two throws off anyone's ability to safely thread an anchor, they shouldn't be threading anything. If its a comfort issue, then they ought to watch climbing videos at home, on the couch, in a bathrobe.

Draws/extendables work perfectly and aren't an accessory anyone has to buy or carry. They work just as well for single pitch, and multipitch where the rope easily serves the purpose of anchor building and personal anchor.

...but then again you all are entitled to drag your tires, and accessory cords, daisys and equalettes, and just about whatever else you'd like to make a climbing anchor comfy, or easier than already easy to setup.

It's a little disproportionately peeved for the subject, but yeah, I agree.

... have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop.

It does look like you have some wear on that section, but I can't tell from the photo what is actually going on.

TWO PAS's? TWO belay loops? I know some of the manufacturers made the double belay loop after Skinner bit the dust(RIP) when his belay loop busted through from overuse(overuse to the extreme that I doubt ANYONE who has time to post regularly to this website could ever come near achieving). It was a manufacturers marketing reaction to an unfortunate, but very widely publicized, event in our community. People actually ditched their perfectly good harnesses to buy the double loop. Well, it was good for the outdoor rec economy, I suppose.

Personally, I would never buy a harness with the double belay loop, and I'd be embarrassed to be seen wearing one.

But TWO PAS'S? For everyday free climbing? Not only would I be embarrassed to be seen in such get-up, I'd be embarrassed to be seen belaying someone that dogmatic about *safety.*

But....that's just me.


I do have the PAS, and though I've considered ditching it and just going with rope or a sling tie-in, it still has a lot of life on it. I don't think I would pay, what is it now - $30?, for a new one. The PAS was suggested to be(by a self-professed safety nazi) when I was a brand new newb. I admit that I sort of like being able to have the options of lengths, when anchored in at a little ledge.


- I girth hitch it to the top tie-in only.
- I check it, and harness point, every so often to see the wear. So far, not any, really, after 5 years use on multipitch and rap anchor clip-in use.

Someone once freaked out that I had only one point hitched, insisting I was gonna die. I agreed - I would, someday die. After all - nobody gets out alive. But it would be extremely unlikely to be from gear failure.

Still, I obediantly switched it out to do both tie-in points, and every damned time I put the harness on with that set up, found myself annoyed trying to thread the rope tie-in(especially with doubles), and also a vague annoyance due to the harness feeling off balance with the bunched up lower tie-point. I switched back to one tie point the next time I checked for wear.


You know what I think is WAY more important than how one clips themselves in? Keeping hydrated, energy level in balance through nutrition, and wearing adequate clothing. I bet a LOT more people die from fucking up their anchor/rap set up because they were bonking, dehydrated or in hypothermia mode, than all the one's(RIP Skinner, and in no way discounting the tragic loss to his family and friends) whose harness or tie-in cling broke due to wear.

The double belay loops are not for safety, they are for convince on aid climbs and big walls. I have two PAS’s for a couple of reasons. The first reason, I need two when aid climbing. Having two is part of basic aid climbing technique (at least it is how I do it). You need one attached to each aider incase you fall, that way you don’t loose your aiders. Also it’s not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls you’re done for. If your leader takes a big fall you’re going to get pulled up to the limit of the reach of your daisy (i.e. the daisy will be stopping you from being pulled any higher). It’s possible for your biner to fail if this happens as the biner can get wedged in the hanger and the hanger can rip through the gate. It’s a bit hard to visualize but trust me it’s possible.

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

Jay

Your right, you caught me. The double belay loops are not for convince, I made that up. Hanging 2k feet off the ground off a single point of failure system is actually a great idea. Using two daisy chains in aid climbing is completely unheard of. When ascending a fixed line its cool to only be tied into one ascender with one PAS and nothing else. I am glad you have so much experience in aid and big wall techniques that you can set me in my place.

No I am not an aid expert but I know the basics. But it doesn’t even matter as none of this has anything to do with aid. The advantages of two belay loops and two PAS's extend beyond just aid climbing.

Also it’s not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls you’re done for.

You should try roped climbing and have it tied into your harness, it will give you a backup to that single point failure.

your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG

our combat commando does not know the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters.

do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice.

I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Honest question for all the non dedicated sling users on this thread. What do you do when you are leading in blocks/not swapping leads?

You are right about the aid... maybe for aiding it has practical applications, but for climbing, and multipitch trad climbing, which I've done enough of to know a thing or two about not dragging along extra worthless shit, its even less practical.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Be amazed, but to assume that I don't do much multi-pitch climbing, because I haven't been won over by the PAS hype that you've been sold on, is disingenuous to my technical skill set.

I like the PAS for that reason too(although at the Gunks, "multiple raps" means....2.

But I have seen the few times a partner had tied in with rope and had to switch out for the rappel. Not a big deal, of course, but for myself, I would rather have the PAS(or sling clip-in) off the bat. At least on the pitches where I know I would be rapping from.

The one thing I simply see as truly embarrassing, is when someone runs the PAS or knotted sling(or worse a set of them) from the front of their harness, under their crotch, and to some connection on the back of their harness. Call me a prude - I just don't like drawing attention to "that" part of my body. Or maybe more aptly, if someone is looking at that part of my body, I don't want it to be because I have a *SlingThong* wedgie....

Guys - Imagine taking a screwed up whip and having that thing snag on a tree branch on the way down..... YEOWCH!

I know some of the manufacturers made the double belay loop after Skinner bit the dust(RIP) when his belay loop busted through from overuse(overuse to the extreme that I doubt ANYONE who has time to post regularly to this website could ever come near achieving). It was a manufacturers marketing reaction to an unfortunate, but very widely publicized, event in our community. People actually ditched their perfectly good harnesses to buy the double loop. Well, it was good for the outdoor rec economy, I suppose.

Soft goods (slings, ropes, webbing, cordage) go through the tie-in points. Hard goods (carabiners) go through the belay loop. I'm just waiting for someone to say they belay with their carabiner through their tie-in loops. That'd be the stupid icing on this dumbass cake.

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

That seems very black or white. For the first three years I climbed I used an alpine bod harness, which doesn't have any belay loop. Carabiner through the tie in points to belay was a matter of neccessity in that circumstance.

Harnesses with two belay loops have been around a lot longer than since Skinner died.



That seems very black or white. For the first three years I climbed I used an alpine bod harness, which doesn't have any belay loop. Carabiner through the tie in points to belay was a matter of neccessity in that circumstance.

Yea I have used the rope before. I just prefer the PAS's. They are also versatile coming in handy for jumaring, aid, tying into belay stations, bolting, and lots of other stuff.

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

I'm with Jay on this one. I can't stand having anything girth hitched to either the belay loop or the tie in points. Girth hitched shoulder length slings always seem to be just a tad short for comfort, and I'm not about to drop $30+ on a PAS. I also like having as little on my belay loop/tie in points as possible to keep things a bit simpler. I find that it is really not much more difficult to use two trad draws with lockers that I have to clip to my belay loop. This method keeps my belay loop much less clustered than having something girth hitched to it.

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

I'm the same way about clutter on the front of my harness, can't stand it. Nothing stays there that isn't being used.

I use a modified version of a purcell prusik, made of 18ft 5mm cord, doubled so it's fully redundant along it's whole length. It's adjustable from 2 to 5 feet, and the anchor end has 2 ears so I can clip 2 anchor points if I want to. For about $7 worth of cord I have a tether that is better than a PAS.

See, to me, that sounds like a lot of clutter.

Then you're probably not envisioning it correctly. No more clutter than 2 biners and a runner, except the runner has some knots in it.

No it's not that...it's that you are carrying something that is always there and serves no other purpose, unlike the pair of slings/draws I have already carried up to use while climbing. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your system (or the PAS, or whatever else). You can use whatever you like and it's cool with me. I just have no desire to carry any extraneous equipment for the extra convenience of a personal anchoring system. You obviously feel it is worth the added convenience, and that's ok too.

I am a weight nazi, so I carry nothing I won't need.

1. I carry the minimal slings and pro that I anticipate I will need, so it's not uncommon that I've used all my slings up by the top of the pitch (your 2 slings/draws are just as much extraneous gear as my tether if you didn't use them on the pitch).

2. Adjustability is important to me for those situations where anchor placement doesn't facilitate optimal belay position.

3. It's faster than using the rope (clip, clip, done), especially at hanging belays, and leaves the full length of rope available for those occasional maxed out pitches.

4. It impresses the honeys.

See? You're technique requires just as much extraneous gear as mine, but you get none of the above benefits.

I'm still not sure why people get worked up about this.

Whillans accident?

I don't use slings to anchor when I get to the end of a pitch, I use the rope. So I still can arrive at the belay without slings, and I still have less gear than you do. So argument #1 doesn't mean a lot to me. Adjustability...I use the rope, so I can anchor in as long or short as I like, so argument #2 doesn't mean a whole lot to me either. It may be faster (I doubt it), but not enough that I'm going to worry about it.

The only place I can see some benefit would be while rapping off a route and having a more adjustable tether at rap stations. In this case, it is extraneous gear; you and I would still be carrying the gear we climbed up with, and you would be carrying an extra piece of gear. You find some value in carrying this extra gear. I do not. As far as the honeys...I doubt I'd want any of the girls that'd be impressed with a Purcell Prusik.

I'm still not sure why people get worked up about this. Like I said, I don't care what you or my climbing partners use, as long as it's safe. If y'all want to carry a daisy/sling/Purcell/PAS...whatever...knock yourself out, as long as you are safe and can use your system efficiently.

I am a weight nazi, so I carry nothing I won't need.

Hahahahaha!

That's a good one!

Because yeah, when I'm rappelling, I've used up all my slings on what, exactly?

Don't get me wrong, at least your purcel prussic is better than that POS, I mean PAS so many folks are carrying around. But both are not "needed" whatsoever in multipitch sport or trad.

GO

I rarely use the rope to anchor because most of the time I'm leading in blocks, so that makes the benefits of more value to me than they would be to you.

Who is talking about rappelling?

Anyone who claims to be a weight nazi should be. Aside from rappelling, the tie in rope is always the perfect thing to anchor in with, unless you've invented a weightless purcell prusic?

GO

Why does every gear thread here turn into a pissing match?

DMT

Anyone who claims to be a weight nazi should be. Aside from rappelling, the tie in rope is always the perfect thing to anchor in with, unless you've invented a weightless purcell prusic?

GO

To prevent the wear, I cannibalized a Mammut harness with the little plastic tie in protector thing. The new harness has been used about 120 days and still looks brand new.

I'll transfer that little plastic thingy from one harness to another now that I've got it. Too bad only Mammut harnesses come with it.

Well if you think weight is my only consideration then you didn't read my posts very well. I trade the weight of some gear for the weight of other gear that offers me more benefit. I trade a couple slings for 3 ounces of cord that gives me more benefits than just using the rope does.

Well if you think weight is my only consideration then you didn't read my posts very well. I trade the weight of some gear for the weight of other gear that offers me more benefit. I trade a couple slings for 3 ounces of cord that gives me more benefits than just using the rope does.

???

Sorry, but that makes no sense that I can see. Let's say I'm leading in blocks. My second gets to the anchor, gives me the gear, and puts me on belay. Here's what I have to do to start leading:

1 - Unclip one locking biner from my anchor and pop the clove hitch off it.
2 - Clip the biner to a gear loop.

Wow, that was hard. Do explain how your method saves so much time compared to mine.

GO

I took CSPROUL’s comment as he was using the rope to rig the primary anchor, perhaps he isn’t.

But, I’m not just talking about speed in leaving the belay, but speed and ease in creating the belay, and as I’ve already mentioned, especially at hanging belays.

And, my usual multi-pitch rope is my set of 7.7mm ice twins, because they give me full length rappels for the weight of a single rope. One disadvantage of 2 skinny cords is that they can get tangled easier, and flipping the stack doesn’t always prevent that issue, so it’s not unusual that I will switch ends of the rope.

Another advantage over using the rope is that I can adjust my tether even when I’m out of arm’s length from the anchor because the way I rigged it the prusik always remains 8 inches from my harness.

And don’t forget, I get the honeys.

Why does every gear thread here turn into a pissing match?

DMT

Which "couple of slings" is that? You're trading a purcell prussic for the *nothing* that I carry. You keep missing the point that you're simply carrying *extra* gear.

If it makes you happy, cool. But calling yourself a "weight nazi" is just kinda funny to me.

GO

Dude, try to follow the conversation...

...you aren’t carrying *nothing*. You’re carrying extra length of rope to clove hitch in with. You didn’t need it on the pitch, did you? Well you should chop it off and only carry the amount of rope you need then, because I guarantee you my cord weighs less than that extra rope you’re lugging around all over the place. Haha!

...so clearly, I’m a BIGGER RETARD nazi than you. ;)

Huh? This whole thread has been about attachments to the anchor! Or are you going to tell me that you've been arguing about using your purcell prussic itself as an anchor, now? Like, instead of a cordelette or whatever?

Hmm... okay - I get to belay, and I either:
1 - clove hitch rope to anchor, adjust (if I'm going to be within four feet of the anchor) or
2 - clip rope through locking biner on the anchor, walk/climb back to where I'm belaying, clove hitch to locker on my belay loop (if I'm five to thirty feet from the anchor.)

And, again, no extra gear.

Okay. Since you and your second are both at the anchor, and there are tons of slings, I don't know why you need a separate piece of gear just to trade ends of the rope. But sure, if it makes you happy, that's cool. Not even relevant for my climbing, though. If I lead in blocks, I usually just have the second reflake the rope(s) from their end as I grab gear off their harness.

You don't have nearly the adjustability I do. See above.

I'm all set on that front. <insert bad joke about how much she enjoys how I use my rope>

GO

Summary:
It’s easy to continue to follow my own broken logic versus, trying to understand the ease and practicality of other systems .

Except that extra length of rope your hauling, which is heavier than my rig, you weight libertine.

I'm trying to understand your argument about the extra rope... Please explain more clearly. Do you have a rope that is the absolute length of every climb you do? No one is actually talking about having extra rope attached to them. Its quite the contrary. On the other hand you have the same amount of rope, all the draws you needed, cams, AND the addition of a PAS.

Your PAS is an ACCESSORY, that adds weight and bulk.

Besides all that ridiculousness... you know the rope is only as heavy as the length from the belayer to your harness, plus drag, whilst climbing. Unless you are doing something incredibly wrong.

If you are, then please share your bulk and weight saving techniques that add bulk and weight. I'd like to snicker a bunch more.

Blah, Blah, no one cares anymore dooder. Find a resources for building anchors, and pay special attention to the sections regarding attaching oneself to the anchor. God forbid you find a resource written before the introduction of a PAS.

If I may...

My first rope was a 150' Goldline.

My next couple of kernmantles were also 150s. Then 165s came along and wow, that was like (fingers and toes, brother, fingers and toes), um, 15 extra feet!

Why that was enough to use the rope at the end of each 150' pitch to rig a belay! Wow!

Fast forward many years and 180s showed up. Now we could send those 165' pitches and STILL HAVE SOME ROPE LEFT! TO RIG THE BELAY!!!111111

Then 200s showed up. GODDAMN ROPES ARE HEAVY THESE DAYS!

So now we have enough cord left over from those 180 foot pitches rig the belay, yee hah!

Now I see climbers are maintaining 70 meter ropes are the way to go, even 80! EIGHTY FUCKING METERS! That's like... a lot of feet man!

I was telling my pard last weekend, that for trad, I totally prefer a 180 rope over a 200. For sport, other way around (of course).

For simulclimbing I like a 165 or even a 150.

Sorry for mixing measuring systems btw.

DMT

All right, you've said this a couple times. Are you saying that because you are not using the rope to anchor in that what you would have used just disappears? Or did you cut it off? Are you climbing on a 59m rope?

Look, I don't care if you use a PAS, but don't make shit up.

Josh

Honest question for all the non dedicated sling users on this thread. What do you do when you are leading in blocks/not swapping leads?

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

Jay

Your right, you caught me. The double belay loops are not for convince, I made that up. Hanging 2k feet off the ground off a single point of failure system is actually a great idea. Using two daisy chains in aid climbing is completely unheard of. When ascending a fixed line its cool to only be tied into one ascender with one PAS and nothing else. I am glad you have so much experience in aid and big wall techniques that you can set me in my place.

No I am not an aid expert but I know the basics. But it doesn’t even matter as none of this has anything to do with aid. The advantages of two belay loops and two PAS's extend beyond just aid climbing.

Honest question for all the non dedicated sling users on this thread. What do you do when you are leading in blocks/not swapping leads?

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I like the PAS for that reason too(although at the Gunks, "multiple raps" means....2.

But I have seen the few times a partner had tied in with rope and had to switch out for the rappel. Not a big deal, of course, but for myself, I would rather have the PAS(or sling clip-in) off the bat. At least on the pitches where I know I would be rapping from.

The one thing I simply see as truly embarrassing, is when someone runs the PAS or knotted sling(or worse a set of them) from the front of their harness, under their crotch, and to some connection on the back of their harness. Call me a prude - I just don't like drawing attention to "that" part of my body. Or maybe more aptly, if someone is looking at that part of my body, I don't want it to be because I have a *SlingThong* wedgie....

Guys - Imagine taking a screwed up whip and having that thing snag on a tree branch on the way down..... YEOWCH!

I have this thing called a "runner." Some call it a sling. Its clipped to my harness with 2 biners already on it. When I need to anchor in at a rap station, one end goes to the anchor, the other to my harness, clip clip!.

Its a beautiful thing!

I'd be happy to make you a demo video if you think it will help!

DMT

Where can I get one of these runners? I went to REI and all they have is slings.

[...] when you trip like a clod the rope will absorb the impact and possibly keep you from ripping your anchor out of the wall.