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shockabuku
Nov 30, 2011, 5:32 PM
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cracklover wrote: Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too. GO
Yeah, but then you need to bolt some 5.8s for the weaker guys to warm up on. And then someone will come along to work on the 5.8s so you'll need a 5.7 and so on. Unless you have top ropeable climbs for warm-ups.
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johnwesely
Nov 30, 2011, 5:33 PM
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cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: sp115 wrote: petsfed wrote: And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass. I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff. If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period. You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive. On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun. Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them. How is it that no-one noticed this gem? Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll. You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head. GO
My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors.
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cracklover
Nov 30, 2011, 5:49 PM
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shockabuku wrote: cracklover wrote: Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too. GO Yeah, but then you need to bolt some 5.8s for the weaker guys to warm up on. And then someone will come along to work on the 5.8s so you'll need a 5.7 and so on. Unless you have top ropeable climbs for warm-ups.
No, the wall has whatever it has for good climbs. Most will have a range already, but for those walls that don't (for example, I've been places where all the decent climbs are 12b through 12d), it's nice to bolt a warmup or two. Your argument makes no sense - you don't need a warmup for the warmup.
GO
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cracklover
Nov 30, 2011, 5:52 PM
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johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: sp115 wrote: petsfed wrote: And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass. I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff. If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period. You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive. On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun. Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them. How is it that no-one noticed this gem? Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll. You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head. GO My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors.
I hope, for your own sake, you put bolts on that chosspile. Why do you think no-one climbed it before you? It's unprotectable garbage with one or two good moves. If you didn't bolt the sucker, sorry buddy, but prepare to crater.
G
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johnwesely
Nov 30, 2011, 5:57 PM
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cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: sp115 wrote: petsfed wrote: And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass. I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff. If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period. You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive. On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun. Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them. How is it that no-one noticed this gem? Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll. You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head. GO My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors. I hope, for your own sake, you put bolts on that chosspile. Why do you think no-one climbed it before you? It's unprotectable garbage with one or two good moves. If you didn't bolt the sucker, sorry buddy, but prepare to crater. G
It actually takes really solid stacked rps.
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johnwesely
Nov 30, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Since you decided to ruin my fun in a way no one could miss, I actually have a heart warming story about the route in question.
One of my steady climbing partners used to have the worst lead head imaginable. He would take at every single bolt even out of habit. He had never redpointed a route despite having climbed for years. It was pretty strange to say the least. He also claimed he had no interest whatsoever in redpointing, which was an obvious cop out. One fateful day, we decided on climbing the route in question. It was a route we had both climbed multiple times before and a favorite of my friend. Despite it being short, lame all around, and a complete pain to get to, I agreed to go do the route on one condition, my partner would take some practice falls and make an honest attempt at redpointing the route. Surprisingly, he agreed.
I hung the draws, and my friend took his first practice fall, a tremendous three foot top rope whipper. Even this small act took five minutes of arguing. The next fall, around five feet, went a little easier, and after a few more, we were up to ten footers with nary a complaint. Still, on his redpoint attempt, he hesitated. He wanted to take so badly, but I would not let him. After much consternation, he successfully clipped the chains in an effort of will I doubt has been repeated.
Licheness sucks. There is no doubt about it, but it still holds a special place in my heart. After that day, my friends climbing habits were completely transformed, and he went on to red point 5.11. Whoever chopped it is an idiot.
(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 30, 2011, 6:10 PM)
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cracklover
Nov 30, 2011, 9:19 PM
Post #57 of 111
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johnwesely wrote: Since you decided to ruin my fun in a way no one could miss, I actually have a heart warming story about the route in question.
Nah, you were just wise enough to downclimb while you still had a chance. LOL. You'll note that at the same time I was poking fun, I was also engaging your argument (separate posts).
In reply to: One of my steady climbing partners used to have the worst lead head imaginable. He would take at every single bolt even out of habit. He had never redpointed a route despite having climbed for years. It was pretty strange to say the least. He also claimed he had no interest whatsoever in redpointing, which was an obvious cop out. One fateful day, we decided on climbing the route in question. It was a route we had both climbed multiple times before and a favorite of my friend. Despite it being short, lame all around, and a complete pain to get to, I agreed to go do the route on one condition, my partner would take some practice falls and make an honest attempt at redpointing the route. Surprisingly, he agreed. I hung the draws, and my friend took his first practice fall, a tremendous three foot top rope whipper. Even this small act took five minutes of arguing. The next fall, around five feet, went a little easier, and after a few more, we were up to ten footers with nary a complaint. Still, on his redpoint attempt, he hesitated. He wanted to take so badly, but I would not let him. After much consternation, he successfully clipped the chains in an effort of will I doubt has been repeated. Licheness sucks. There is no doubt about it, but it still holds a special place in my heart. After that day, my friends climbing habits were completely transformed, and he went on to red point 5.11. Whoever chopped it is an idiot.
Good story.
Cheers,
GO
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jae8908
Dec 1, 2011, 2:36 AM
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There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?
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johnwesely
Dec 1, 2011, 2:43 AM
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jae8908 wrote: There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?
I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism,
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jae8908
Dec 1, 2011, 1:55 PM
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johnwesely wrote: jae8908 wrote: There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route? I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism,
Do you dislike open shuts?
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johnwesely
Dec 1, 2011, 2:03 PM
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jae8908 wrote: johnwesely wrote: jae8908 wrote: There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route? I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism, Do you dislike open shuts?
Yes, but I am not sure what that has to do with anything.
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jae8908
Dec 1, 2011, 5:49 PM
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism
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johnwesely
Dec 1, 2011, 6:02 PM
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jae8908 wrote: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism
You learn something new everyday. Thank you for the clarification.
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jae8908
Dec 1, 2011, 6:04 PM
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I wish that I could learn how to make links work...
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JohnCook
Dec 1, 2011, 6:20 PM
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Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!
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IsayAutumn
Dec 1, 2011, 7:04 PM
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johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.
This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.
You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.
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sungam
Dec 1, 2011, 7:07 PM
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JohnCook wrote: Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!
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shockabuku
Dec 1, 2011, 7:29 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.
Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?
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shockabuku
Dec 1, 2011, 7:30 PM
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JohnCook wrote: Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!
I have to say that the phrase "open shuts", being obviously paradoxical or oxymoronic, is somewhat offensive to me.
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IsayAutumn
Dec 1, 2011, 7:32 PM
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shockabuku wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby. Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?
Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.
Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?
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redlude97
Dec 1, 2011, 7:50 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote: shockabuku wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby. Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)? Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen. Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?
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shockabuku
Dec 1, 2011, 7:55 PM
Post #73 of 111
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IsayAutumn wrote: shockabuku wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby. Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)? Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen. Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?
No, I was simply taking advantage of a target of opportunity - you.
As I will again because your spelling is obscene.
And no, it doesn't take years to climb 5.10. Competent, though mostly young, athletes will do it in months. I've seen people start leading trad in a couple of weeks. Not 5.10 trad, but enough to know it isn't only the exceptional few who can do it.
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johnwesely
Dec 1, 2011, 8:21 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote: shockabuku wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby. Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)? Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen. Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?
This really is the gift that keeps on giving.
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IsayAutumn
Dec 1, 2011, 8:52 PM
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johnwesely wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: shockabuku wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: johnwesely wrote: I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped. This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot. You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby. Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)? Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen. Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn? This really is the gift that keeps on giving.
You're welcome.
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