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Rmsyll2
Jan 28, 2012, 3:37 PM
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http://ClimbPilotNC.us/RiggingGalleries.htm
No comments, just photos of what people do at two bolted rim anchors for single-pitch Top-rope routes at one location. You will see rope, cord, webbing, sewn slings, without and with equalization static or dynamic, with and without rub on the rocks; one case of natural, and one of face rings. Collection is increasing and irregularly updated.
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sittingduck
Jan 28, 2012, 3:54 PM
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That's great, every crag should have a page like that.
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macblaze
Jan 28, 2012, 5:56 PM
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Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it.
So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?
Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...
(This post was edited by macblaze on Jan 28, 2012, 6:01 PM)
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Traches
Jan 28, 2012, 7:36 PM
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Nice link!
Call me a noob, but I have no experience setting up top rope anchors. Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out, they'd shock load the other one or fail outright. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using 2?
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marc801
Jan 29, 2012, 1:53 AM
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Traches wrote: Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,...
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marc801
Jan 29, 2012, 1:56 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: http://ClimbPilotNC.us/RiggingGalleries.htm No comments, just photos of what people do at two bolted rim anchors for single-pitch Top-rope routes at one location. You will see rope, cord, webbing, sewn slings, without and with equalization static or dynamic, with and without rub on the rocks; one case of natural, and one of face rings. Collection is increasing and irregularly updated. .
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Traches
Jan 29, 2012, 4:27 AM
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marc801 wrote: Traches wrote: Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,... In good rock this basically doesn't happen. It's an over-emphasized concern among beginners.
I realize that, you could hang my truck from most bolts... But if your anchor system is set up to fail if either bolt fails, what do you gain by using 2?
Examples-
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dan2see
Jan 29, 2012, 5:32 AM
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macblaze wrote: Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it. So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one? Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...
In most of the routes in the Heart Creek crags, the anchor is set well below the top of the cliff. Most ropes are 60 meters, so the bolts have to be less than 30 meters high, even though the cliff is 40-50 meters to the top. There is no walk-off, it's all mountain above.
So the only way to get to those anchors is to lead from the bottom. The only way to clean them is to climb, clean, and rap.
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marc801
Jan 29, 2012, 6:23 AM
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Traches wrote: marc801 wrote: Traches wrote: Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,... In good rock this basically doesn't happen. It's an over-emphasized concern among beginners. I realize that, you could hang my truck from most bolts... But if your anchor system is set up to fail if either bolt fails, what do you gain by using 2? Examples- [img]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Dudes/HowdyDudette%20anchor18%20sm.jpg [/img] [img]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Dudes/HowdyDudette%20anchor19%20sm.jpg[/img]
That wasn't your original question, which asked about the ever feared shockloading.
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rnevius
Jan 29, 2012, 6:47 AM
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Traches,
I am missing your point...the first anchor pictured looks like a simple "sliding X" configuration. The second looks like a "quad." Both are completely standard...
Edit: On second glance, it looks like you are also concerned about shock loading in each of these situations. While none should fail outright if one of the bolts was to become compromised, "limiter" knots on the first case wouldn't be a bad idea. The quad has limiter knots by design, which would reduce the shock load in the case of bolt failure.
(This post was edited by rnevius on Jan 29, 2012, 6:54 AM)
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j_ung
Jan 29, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Traches wrote: Nice link! Call me a noob, but I have no experience setting up top rope anchors. Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out, they'd shock load the other one or fail outright. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using 2?
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.
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j_ung
Jan 29, 2012, 2:55 PM
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macblaze wrote: Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it. So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one? Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...
Yes, there is a standard procedure. In a nutshell...
Bring a length of static rope and a Gri-gri with you to the crag. Fix the rope to a BFT, and then rap over the edge with the Gri-gri. Set up your anchor and then use the Gri-gri to ascend the rope back to the top. Make sure you have a knot in the rope below you to back up the Gri-gri.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jan 29, 2012, 2:56 PM)
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Traches
Jan 29, 2012, 5:06 PM
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Okay, guess I'm just looking at them wrong. It's tough to tell from just a picture how it works, and like I said, I have no experience setting them up.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Jan 29, 2012, 10:55 PM
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j_ung wrote: I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.
Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:
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marc801
Jan 29, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: j_ung wrote: I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up. Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one: [image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/ParkingLot/ThinUpper%20anchors6a%20sm.jpg[/image]
I can't tell what's going on with the cluster on the bottom, but the one at the top of the photo is a textbook way to break a biner.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 30, 2012, 12:15 AM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: j_ung wrote: I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up. Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:
I don't know what that red thing is in the lower left-hand corner, but whatever it is it'd scare the crap out of me for sure.
Otherwise...
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jt512
Jan 30, 2012, 1:09 AM
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macblaze wrote: Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it. So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?
It looks like someone intended that route to be led.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 30, 2012, 4:57 AM)
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Rmsyll2
Jan 30, 2012, 4:39 AM
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As in another reply, face anchors are for lead routes, meaning starting from the bottom with no rope until the leader puts it in something. That route can be led with gear, so does have rappel rings mounted on the face. Two quick-draws will do for such anchors. It is usually done as top-rope, because the anchors can be reached by laying on one's belly, so the rigging is usually what TR climbers carry.
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Rmsyll2
Jan 30, 2012, 4:48 AM
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One aspect of using two anchors is dividing the load on your gear and the anchor. That is an advantage of equalization, without which the load is not divided.
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Rmsyll2
Jan 30, 2012, 5:05 AM
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rnevius wrote: the first anchor pictured looks like a simple "sliding X" configuration. The second looks like a "quad."
Seeing the crossing that makes a Sliding X is difficult sometimes; but that is probably correct there. An Equalette and a Quadralette are noticed by seeing the two stop-knots instead of a single larger Cordelette knot. That one is short, so that it works at numerous anchors at this place, and is easily extended with pairs of something added. That one is used as 3/1, which is most common at that location. The post about various ways to set the belay carabiners was mostly flamed.
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Rmsyll2
Jan 30, 2012, 5:16 AM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one
Good eye. The upper carabiner is "cross-loaded", meaning sideways, not longways. Each carabiner has a strength rating for that, and is not as good as you want. That happens rather commonly when such a rig is used for rappelling, as is common at that route, which is why it is included in the gallery for that route. I switched it around after taking the photo.
The red cord is a single loop (see single Fisherman's knot) with a Cordelette knot. The yellow webbing is on its own carabiner, because it is either a back-up line, or a tie-in and maybe for starting the rappel. Using a third back-up line is fairly common at that location, and is seen at other galleries.
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guangzhou
Jan 30, 2012, 5:37 AM
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Nice hodgepodges of system for sure.
As for comments on two bolts being a convenience, the bottom line is that sometime bolts do fails, so the system should be ready if one bolt does fail.
Looking at the photos posted in this thread, most people are making the system much more complicated than it needs to be. One part SERENE leaves out is the KISS idea. Keep things simple.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 30, 2012, 5:47 AM)
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Rmsyll2
Jan 30, 2012, 5:43 AM
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j_ung wrote: I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.
That is because they are not included in the galleries. I've done some re-rigging, too, usually accepted cheerfully as a lesson. There is, however, a collection for "death triangle", and putting webbing through the hanger eye. The former includes a Boy Scout leader's rigging; the latter includes a college outdoor program leader, see Att'd. What made me laugh there was the trouble to rig a back-up and cover for the edge, then neglect something as simple as a carabiner at the hangers. I spoke with him, and he said that was how they did it where he climbed.
I've not seen anything that was going to kill anyone, and know of no such accident at that location, but do support the principles of safety suggested by John Long et alia.
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bearbreeder
Jan 30, 2012, 5:56 AM
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why top rope anchors are sooo complicated i have no idea ...
its amazing how some people can go on and on over top rope anchors ...
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