Witnesses say the victim's fall was cushioned by a rock outcropping about half way down the [f]all.

he was lowering me I guess the rope burned his hand (no gloves on) and he panicked letting go of the rope.

- what diameter was the rope
- do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc
- was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide

thank you for posting ... glad you are ok

if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity

- what diameter was the rope
- do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc
- was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide

thanks and best wishes

Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands?

I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands.

All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions).

Jay

If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor.

And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well.

And you get a smooth lower with Jay's technique every time. Both hands are always on the rope with that one, so it's safer.

If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor.

And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well.

And, if you're inexperienced, and you're dealing with a rope that is thinner, or slicker, or the person you're lowering is heavier than you're used to, or for whatever reason, the rope feeds faster than you're expecting it, and it burns you and you let go, you have a dropped climber.

Yes, even if the rope is burning you, as a belayer you should hold on. But your natural istinct (and it is a strong one) is to let go of/drop something that is burning you.

Also, where did I suggest that you didn't have both hands on the rope at all times?

Sometimes we have occasion to lower off a single biner, don't we? On those rare occasions, when I have no redundancy, I want the force on that bolt and biner to be both as low and as constant as possible.

I don't want to be pretty smoothly lowered.

Jay

I'd argue that you want the most simple technique and fewest moving parts if you're so inexperienced. That is the slide technique.

All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions).
Jay

Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction.

Oh dear. If you are that worried about unnecessary forces then you should rapping or self lowering!

In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction.

The rope wasn't much smaller just smaller then what the belayer had previously used it was a 9.4, belayer had only one hand below the atc with no glove on, it was on a standard atc.

Really ? What stops the rope from slipping through your hands if not palm to rope friction ?

gri gri

The rope wasn't much smaller just smaller then what the belayer had previously used it was a 9.4, belayer had only one hand below the atc with no glove on, it was on a standard atc. And the reason I had trust with the guy was first I've known him for a while and there were other more experience climbers around who were supposed to be watching him for any mistakes so that this wouldn't happen. There were 3 other climbers there who had the experience to know how to properly use the device and educate the belayer they apparently got side tracked and were talking because they assumed everything was under control. We all became complacent because everything had worked fine the previous times and the newer belay seemed to have a firm grasp on what to do and was displaying proper technique minus the lack of gloves. I feel the main reason this accident happened was first a lack of experience/supervision and myself becoming complacent thinking that since I'm not leading or setting gear, that I'm on a top rope what goes wrong on a top rope. That mentality is what helped contribute to getting injured. I failed to recognize that its still a dangerous sport no matter how secure I felt. Everyone was just caught up in having a good time and led us to having a lapse in judgment.

Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction.

Actually, compared with letting the rope run through your hands, hand-over-hand lowering relies more on palm-to-rope friction, because you have to actually grip the rope. Letting the rope slide through your hands relies primarily on the braking force of the device. You can lower in full control with almost no grip at all by keeping the rope tightly bent over the edge of the belay device.

MADNESS!

The fact that more than one person is in here promoting this notion is blowing my mind.

I understand that not everyone has, or even wants, callused hands but those people should use gloves. Going hand over hand while lowering your climber is the worst/most awkward/clumsy/convoluted possible solution to the problem.

...using gloves should be an standard habit when belying any size rope .

One reason you got dropped is that your rope was way too thin for a standard ATC. You'd likely have been dropped if you fell as well.

Quite untrue. Dynamic friction is lower than static friction.

Right. And lowering hand over hand uses static friction, whereas letting the rope slide through your hands uses dynamic friction. Therefore, hand-to-rope friction is a greater percentage of the force used to control the rope while lowering using the hand-over-hand method vs letting rope slide through the device. That was my point, and you have supplied the reason why it is true.

Jay

Bullshit. After 30+ years on rock, climbing across the U.S. with hundreds of people, I've never seen anyone (who knew what they were doing) come close to dropping someone, losing a belay, or losing control of their rappel because they weren't wearing gloves. The rope starts warming your hand, you slow the rate of feed by lowering your brake and and increasing friction on the DEVICE. This was a bad belay. Period.

Your logic does not compute Jay.

If the rope is sliding through your hand then you need to grip it harder to get the same braking force than if it isn't sliding through your hand. More to the point though, your aren't dissipating energy as heat in your hand so there is no possibility of rope burn.

Static lowering clearly gives better control.


(Not that I'm advocating that it is by any means necessary if you have sufficient friction in the device. Personally I normally just let rope slide through my hands.)

Your logic does not compute Jay.

If the rope is sliding through your hand then you need to grip it harder to get the same braking force than if it isn't sliding through your hand.

Static lowering clearly gives better control.

(Not that I'm advocating that it is by any means necessary if you have sufficient friction in the device. Personally I normally just let rope slide through my hands.)

And the harder you grip the rope, the greater the friction between the rope and your hand. You keep proving my point, but failing to realize it.


Define "control." Over most of the range of speeds that you'd want to lower someone, letting the rope slip through your hands gives better control over speed than lowering hand over hand. Letting the rope slip through your hands also gives better control of the smoothness (constancy of speed) than lowering hand over hand does. So, I'm not sure what aspect of "control" you think is greater by lowering hand over hand.


As you should, since you have more control over smoothness and speed.

Jay

With the rope in the same position for both types of grip and the same rate of lowering, the friction will need to be identical. We are not measuring friction like in a physics class, we are creating it.

The difference is that letting the rope slide through your hand will take more grip force of the hand to achieve the same friction as holding it in your hand statically because of the difference between static and kinetic friction.

But sheesh, the friction for lowering is achieved through the rope on the device and it is always kinetic. The hand should just be controlling the rope, not holding the weight of the climber.

With the rope in the same position for both types of grip and the same rate of lowering, the friction will need to be identical. We are not measuring friction like in a physics class, we are creating it.

The difference is that letting the rope slide through your hand will take more grip force of the hand to achieve the same friction as holding it in your hand statically because of the difference between static and kinetic friction. If the difference is significant, which I can't recall from physics class, then the amount of force needed for the sliding grip will be too much for him to handle as was the case. It may have also happened with any hand technique since the belayer was clearly trying to do something beyond his ability.

But sheesh, the friction for lowering is achieved through the rope on the device and it is always kinetic. The hand should just be controlling the rope, not holding the weight of the climber.

Dave

my argument with Patto has not been about girp force, but about friction.

If the rope is sliding through your hand then you need to grip it harder to get the same braking force than if it isn't sliding through your hand.

I doubt that the difference between the kinetic and static coefficients of friction is large enough to make a practical difference.

I'm sorry but what are you saying here?

It seems that your misunderstanding about the difference between kinetic and static coefficients of friction seem to be the issue.

I doubt that the difference between the kinetic and static coefficients of friction is large enough to make a practical difference.

I take back the statement above for the case where your belay device is not providing sufficient braking force. Then, yes, you should lower (or rappel) without letting rope slip through your hands, and for the reason you state: you want to take advantage of the higher static coefficient of friction.

Well that was the original point, that I stated quite clearly in my first post.


The other stuff: You seem to be thinking that the total friction force exerted by hand+belayer on the rope is less when the rope is moving than if it is static. This is not the case. The total friction is the SAME. Since it is moving the grip force is higher.

Can you explain why if I'm letting rope slide through my hand, and I want to stop it, I have to increase my grip on the rope, and hence increase hand-to-rope friction

and then if I want to start letting rope slide again, I have to relax my grip, hence reducing the hand-to-rope friction?

Furthermore, if I've been letting rope slide through my hand, and I want to switch to hand-over-hand lowering, I have to first stop the rope from sliding through my hand, which, as noted above, requires me to increase my grip on the rope (and hence increase the hand-to-rope friction), and now to maintain that grip (or nearly so) in order to switch to hand-over-hand lowering.

Is it not clear that if I were to loosen my grip to what it was when letting rope slide through the device that the rope would again slide through the device?

There would have to be a very large difference (unrealistically large, I think) between the static and kinetic coefficients of friction for this not to be the case.

Allowing your brake hand to slide the rope heightens your risk of getting rope burn or even getting the flesh between your thumb and forefinger pulled into the tube....OUCH!!

There is no way I can lower safely by letting the rope slide through my hand.

If that's really true, then you probably won't be able to catch a hard fall, either. What kind of belay device are are you using, and with what diameter rope?

Jay

There is no way I can lower safely by letting the rope slide through my hand.

“Use 2 carabiners instead of one with the ATC and there'll be enough device friction to control the lowering even with a half rope.
rob.calm”

""Someone new to belaying is less likely to pick up on the above issue. I mean, one can't fall back to the basic specification of the range of rope diameters the device can "handle" which in this case is 7.7mm (yikes!) to 11mm. (billl7)"

Manual for the ATC states mm between 9-11mm for single rope (In the case of TR since he has only 1 strand on the device).
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/uploads/black-diamond/files/M10797_A%20ATC_IS%20WEB.pdf