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jagster
Jun 15, 2013, 2:24 PM
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So I was looking on supertopo's forum the other day and saw a question about abseiling past the anchor point whilst carrying your pig and having no partner to help you out, what do you do? im sure loads of people will say just don't do it and be all smart about it!! But I thought id show you what id do and see what people thought?
Lets assume your soloing and have decided to retreat. Your abseiling down 2 ropes tied together through a sling, I know! I know! you shouldn't! but we are. Now one chap said to climb the rope like a tree surgeon, not gona go into this, but that is way wrong, you'll cut the the sling/rope in no time. Another chap said to hang your pig where your at, then climb the rope, then come back down for it, seems ok???. Im not able to upload my photo for some reason!!!
ohhh well
1- third hand stops you.
2- place 2 ascenders on the ropes above with a karabiner connecting them together
3- place a petzl traxion and a gri gri on the pig/you
4-have the ropes come through the ascenders and down to the traxion and gri gri.
5- place a pully and spare karabiner on the karabiner that is at the bottom of the ascenders.
6- send the rope coming from the gri gri up through the pully and back to you
7- send the rope from the traxion up through the spare karabiner and back to you
You now have a far end haul system on two ropes. climb back to the anchor point and start abseiling again.
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2013, 6:52 PM
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jagster wrote: So I was looking on supertopo's forum the other day and saw a question about abseiling past the anchor point whilst carrying your pig and having no partner to help you out, what do you do? im sure loads of people will say just don't do it and be all smart about it!! But I thought id show you what id do and see what people thought? Lets assume your soloing and have decided to retreat. Your abseiling down 2 ropes tied together through a sling, I know! I know! you shouldn't! but we are. Now one chap said to climb the rope like a tree surgeon, not gona go into this, but that is way wrong, you'll cut the the sling/rope in no time. Another chap said to hang your pig where your at, then climb the rope, then come back down for it, seems ok???. Im not able to upload my photo for some reason!!! ohhh well 1- third hand stops you. 2- place 2 ascenders on the ropes above with a karabiner connecting them together 3- place a petzl traxion and a gri gri on the pig/you 4-have the ropes come through the ascenders and down to the traxion and gri gri. 5- place a pully and spare karabiner on the karabiner that is at the bottom of the ascenders. 6- send the rope coming from the gri gri up through the pully and back to you 7- send the rope from the traxion up through the spare karabiner and back to you You now have a far end haul system on two ropes. climb back to the anchor point and start abseiling again.
The above in bold seems doable. After hanging the pig you could use 2 prusic loops, each around both lines, to ascend back up. Ropes couldn't saw back and forth that way.
Edit: I'll ask anyway, why not a biner instead of a sling to retreat from?
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jun 15, 2013, 7:08 PM)
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jagster
Jun 15, 2013, 9:27 PM
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well I suppose someone had to ask. leaving a biner, sure theres no prob there, would be the safest thing to do, but we English men are as tight as a ducks butt when it comes to leaving gear ha ha ha ha
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jagster
Jun 17, 2013, 4:44 PM
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I would actually leave a biner, I agree for 5 dollars its well worth leaving one my comment about being tight wasn't to be taken too seriously . but people have and will, still use a sling!. Its very easy to say what should be done, but in the event somebody does do something like use a sling, looking at ways to prevent the worst case scenario should not be ignored.
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marc801
Jun 17, 2013, 7:09 PM
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Does anyone else hate these hypothetical climbing situation questions as much as I do?
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jagster
Jun 17, 2013, 7:19 PM
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Apologies if the situation is a bit taxing for you. Maybe there will be simpler questions on this forum you can answer helpfully, rather than wasting everyone's time with pointless replies.
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shimanilami
Jun 17, 2013, 7:26 PM
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Are you saying that you're going to ascend the rope with the pig hanging from you? Good luck with that.
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jagster
Jun 17, 2013, 7:34 PM
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If you look at the original post you will see that my set up is a far end haul system on a double rope. ive done this with a pig weighing loads and its easy!!!! plus we're not talking of climbing a 60m rope, although I could
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rocknice2
Jun 17, 2013, 7:52 PM
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Why so complicated?
Option 1:
Tie off the pig where you are.
Climb both strands of rope to belay station you just passed.
Haul up pig.
Pull rope.
Option 2:
If there is a crack nearby.
Anchor pig to wall.
Climb both ropes to rap station.
Pull rope.
On the way down pick up pig.
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jagster
Jun 17, 2013, 8:01 PM
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thanks for the reply. Both options are good - this is the kind of feedback I was after. trying not to sound cocky, but I found this to be really easy, even if it does sound complicated. its just another option for people to consider, I like to have more than 1 way of doing things.
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5.samadhi
Jun 19, 2013, 2:13 PM
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jagster wrote: I would actually leave a biner, I agree for 5 dollars its well worth leaving one my comment about being tight wasn't to be taken too seriously . but people have and will, still use a sling!. Its very easy to say what should be done, but in the event somebody does do something like use a sling, looking at ways to prevent the worst case scenario should not be ignored.
See, there's no need for a contingency plan of the nature you describe.
If you don't have a locking carabiner add two regular carabiners diametrically opposed.
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moose_droppings
Jun 19, 2013, 3:45 PM
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I think we've all been trolled.
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
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I think we've side tracked here. Ignor the sling my main point of the post is about climbing 2 ropes. Could you explain what you'd do if you overshot the station with your pig
Sorry me again .in hindsight maybe I should have said use a karabiner you see the point is still valid if the knot slipped through the crab(I'm not bothererd about the rope cutting as much as I am about the ropes not being fixed,making either rope free to pull down so climbing both ropes at the same time seemed a good idea. you could pull one rope down whilst the other goes up. maybe I'm missing something?? I just thought this way was easy enough to do.so that's why I posted it.
(This post was edited by jagster on Jun 20, 2013, 11:55 AM)
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hyhuu
Jun 20, 2013, 1:50 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: Why so complicated? Option 1: Tie off the pig where you are. Climb both strands of rope to belay station you just passed. Haul up pig. Pull rope.
How do you setup the hauling system if the pig is still on the rope?
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 2:01 PM
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if you use the (chongos 2 to 1 hauling system) I believe that's what its called. you use a z cord, 2 pullys and a jumar. that should do it.
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rocknice2
Jun 20, 2013, 2:59 PM
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Attach one prussic to the anchor and the other to your harness. Just do some squats until you have enough rope to build a haul system.
The pig shouldn't be that heavy. All the water and food should be gone, or most of it.
Plus fist the guy to rap generally doesn't carry the pig. But there is the solo scenario.
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 3:08 PM
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ok then here goes,
so you've tied off your pig on both ropes. you've then climbed to the rap station,
1- place a pully on the anchor, and a pully connected to an inverted jumar on the rope going to the pig. get your z cord ( 10 feet of 5 to 6 mill rope, this is tied to the anchor goes down to the pully on the jumar then back up to the other pully and then finally back to you on a clove hitch. when you sit down the rope/pig will come up, the slack now created needs to go through a traxion or another jumar and pulled tight, once the weight is on the traxion, stand up and push the inverted jumar down and sit down again. heres a post from pass the pitons pete on the setup,
Best pulleys for 2:1 Chongo style hauling? :: SuperTopo Rock ...
www.supertopo.com › Climber's Discussion Forum‎
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rocknice2
Jun 20, 2013, 3:10 PM
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YOU DON'T NEED 2:1
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 3:18 PM
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im sorry I don't understand what you mean? can you elaborate
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csproul
Jun 20, 2013, 3:19 PM
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You don't need 2:1, but if the pig is on the line, you can't load the rope through a hauling device or pulley until the weight is off of the rope. So it might be useful to use a Zed-cord type hauling system (ie Chongo/PTPP/Hudon's style 2:1) that does not use the climbing rope in the hauling system. You could do this without the 2:1 and get enough slack in the rope to load a pulley/trax.
Or am I missing something?
(This post was edited by csproul on Jun 20, 2013, 3:24 PM)
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 3:22 PM
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sorry ive just re read your post I get it now!! pull the rope on one side and the prussic will hold it on the other, this does depend on wether the load isint too heavy though. I still would say you need a 2 to 1 if its really heavy.
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 3:33 PM
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SO FAR MARC801 YOUVE NOT REALLY HEPLED WHY NOT ADD SOME OF YOUR VALUABLE EXPERIENCE EH!!! I DONT SEE THIS AS RIDICULOUS SOLOUTION BE EACH TO THERE OWN.
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skiclimb
Jun 20, 2013, 4:18 PM
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Last post on the page.. redone later
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 20, 2013, 6:01 PM)
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csproul
Jun 20, 2013, 4:21 PM
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marc801 wrote: jagster wrote: if you use the (chongos 2 to 1 hauling system) I believe that's what its called. you use a z cord, 2 pullys and a jumar. that should do it. But that's not what he asked.
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marc801
Jun 20, 2013, 4:51 PM
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csproul wrote: marc801 wrote: jagster wrote: if you use the (chongos 2 to 1 hauling system) I believe that's what its called. you use a z cord, 2 pullys and a jumar. that should do it. But that's not what he asked. He did effectively answer the question. The system he describes does not use the rope in the hauling system, and therefore it does not matter if the rope is weighted or not. The hauling is done with a separate cord (z-cord) to pull up an ascender attached to the weighted rope. The system he describes is 2:1, but it would not need to be in this case, especially if the bag wasn't too heavy.
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rocknice2
Jun 20, 2013, 4:55 PM
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jagster wrote: im sorry I don't understand what you mean? can you elaborate
Do you really need a 2:1 to haul 60/70 lbs worth of crap.
Once your get to the rap station and set your anchor, put both prussics on the rope below you. Attach one to the anchor and the other to your belay loop. Squat down and extend your prussic down. Now stand up hauling the bag. Once your standing straight up slid the anchor prussic down. Repeat.
You could probably haul the bag all the way like this if it's not too far. If not the just setup a 1:1 and haul. You can use your own body weight as a counter weight.
Have you ever hauled anything , ever?
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jagster
Jun 20, 2013, 5:59 PM
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Tsh tsh old sport no need to throw mud!!!  I see what your doing its just I'd rather have gravity on my side and sit down to haul rather than stand. Being a light fellow and all!!
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skiclimb
Jun 20, 2013, 6:00 PM
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Here is a very good answer.
First off you should not be rapping on double strands while ferrying the haulbag. SO I won't answer what to do if you rapping double strand. DONT do that. Not end of the world if you do but it's gonna be more of a pain in the arse to fix. Especially if your rope can feed both ways or the haulbag is too light to provide counterweight for single line ascending.
You should be rapping single strand with a gri-gri. Other side of the rapp should be freehanging. The haulbag should be attached to the belay loop on a seperate pearbiner (gate up configuration if small end at the belay loop) usually with a 24 inch sling. Lots of good reasons for this.
SO you've gone past the belay. No problem. Stop place a prussik on the rap line. Attach to haulbag below the biner that attaches your bag to the belay loop. Then lower yourself a few inches till prussik is holding the haulbag weight. Unclip the haulbag biner from the belay loop and you have escaped. (this is easy if you always have your biner clipped in the correct direction)
Attach ascenders and preferably ascend to the intended anchor you passed.
Setup your anchor and clip the weighted side of the rope with ascender. haul it up a bit however you have to (should be able to by directly lifting on the line but can do it other ways that should be self evident for a wall climber) till you have enough slack to setup a proper haul (if that is even needed). Bring bag up to the anchor and remove from line.
Pull rope and you are back on track.
2nd Option
If the bags are light enough I would just skip the whole escaping from them and simply ascend with bag dangling off my belay loop. Not too big a deal for a short distance perhaps.
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rocknice2
Jun 20, 2013, 6:53 PM
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That's the whole point gravity is on your side with a 1:1.
I didn't throw mud. Just a good backhand because already you have mud in your ears 
Skiclimb and I have given you very real world solutions to something that should not happen too a party of two in the first place.
The Chongo solution will leave you yarding on a 6mm cord. But to each their own.
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mikebee
Jun 21, 2013, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: You should be rapping single strand with a gri-gri. Other side of the rapp should be freehanging.
I've never done a wall, so haven't ever rapped with a haulbag, hence a newbie question: how do you rig the ropes for this system. Do you use a "biner block" type system, so you can pull one end, but rap on the other?
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skiclimb
Jun 21, 2013, 4:29 AM
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mikebee wrote: In reply to: You should be rapping single strand with a gri-gri. Other side of the rapp should be freehanging. I've never done a wall, so haven't ever rapped with a haulbag, hence a newbie question: how do you rig the ropes for this system. Do you use a "biner block" type system, so you can pull one end, but rap on the other?
Exactly.
And by free hanging I don't mean let the free side blow away off in the wind where you can't get it. You should tend to it.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 21, 2013, 2:14 PM)
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chris
Jun 24, 2013, 2:05 AM
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skiclimb wrote: Here is a very good answer. First off you should not be rapping on double strands while ferrying the haulbag. SO I won't answer what to do if you rapping double strand. DONT do that. Not end of the world if you do but it's gonna be more of a pain in the arse to fix. Especially if your rope can feed both ways or the haulbag is too light to provide counterweight for single line ascending. You should...
I like skiclimb's answer best. Ditto.
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xtrmecat
Jul 9, 2013, 3:46 PM
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Ahemm. Have any of the posters ever done a piggy rap?
One rope?? OMG. Shut the fuck up will you. If you are rapping the route, or just the normal descent, it makes no sense to complicate anything and just go with the normal procedures.. Rapping with a pig is no big deal, just ride the sucker till you discover your oops.
Tie a backup to the piggies rap device, (You were riding the pig, right?) Get you ascenders off your harness and ascend to the anchors. Anchor yourself and set up your haul. Anchor your piggie, and get back on board.
Pull ropes from last station, get back on rappel, and rinse and repeat till you are on the deck.
Why in the world would someone have a sixty meter rap, using two ropes, and only use one and a grigri?
Big wall theory? Just go with standard operating procedures. If there is a shortcut, please oh please let it come from someone with some wall mileage, not from theory on the intardnet.
Burly Bob
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csproul
Jul 9, 2013, 4:22 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: Ahemm. Have any of the posters ever done a piggy rap? One rope?? OMG. Shut the fuck up will you. If you are rapping the route, or just the normal descent, it makes no sense to complicate anything and just go with the normal procedures.. Rapping with a pig is no big deal, just ride the sucker till you discover your oops. Tie a backup to the piggies rap device, (You were riding the pig, right?) Get you ascenders off your harness and ascend to the anchors. Anchor yourself and set up your haul. Anchor your piggie, and get back on board. Pull ropes from last station, get back on rappel, and rinse and repeat till you are on the deck. Why in the world would someone have a sixty meter rap, using two ropes, and only use one and a grigri? Big wall theory? Just go with standard operating procedures. If there is a shortcut, please oh please let it come from someone with some wall mileage, not from theory on the intardnet. Burly Bob
You're rapping a double rope (two strands). How can you use your ascenders to climb up a doubled rope? Do you just make sure you pick the correct strand and rely on the knot jamming in the anchor? Or are you relying on the weight of the pig to keep the ropes from pulling through the anchor?
If you tie back-ups on the rap device attached to the pig, the weight of the pig is left on the doubled up rope. When you get to the anchor and setup your haul, how do you get the loaded rope into a pulley if the bag is on the ropes (unless you use a z-cord or something similar)?
I can think of a couple of reasons to rap a single line, a fixed line being one of them. I have done very little aid climbing, but I have been a few pitches up and decided to bail to the ground to come back the next day. We fixed three ropes to the ground via a couple rap anchors so we could reach the ground and then head back up the single line(s) the next day. We did take our bags with us, so we ended up rapping on a single line on a Grigri with a haul bag. Of course, in our case it was easy to send the first person down without the bag and make sure it ended at the next rap...but what if you were soloing?
(This post was edited by csproul on Jul 9, 2013, 4:50 PM)
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rocknice2
Jul 9, 2013, 4:35 PM
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When riding the pig, I still set myself as the primary on the rap device and then tether the pig to the rap device. You could do it the other way around but I like to be the primary. Never know when you need to cut the little heffer loose.
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xtrmecat
Jul 9, 2013, 4:59 PM
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I cannot think why someone would take a piggy they hauled down to the deck, just to jug back up and haul it agian the next day. I and every one I have ever walled with just take the necessities to the deck, and then simply jug back up to the top in the am with our goodies on the back of the harness. A whole pig worth, why?
I phrased my post on purpose this way to try to weed out some honesty or stupidity, whichever rose to the top would let me know how to reply.
When rapping with the pig, most people I know, including me, put the pig on rappel, and tie off to the pig via a sling doubles or tripled via lockers to the main rappel locker. Some use the prussic backup above and some use it below the atc. I prefer above.
When the problem arises. just stop the rap, lock the prussic. Tie a munter mule and put a biner, prefer a locker on it. Get out the ascenders, whick are always on the harness, right. Hook em up and get into the aiders above the pig on both strands. Tie your backup, which will probably be a prussic or kliemheist. When jugging. the muntered pig should stay right where it is, but if it is so light that the ropes try to slip, put a couple of the smallest slings you have and prussic up to the belay on both strands together. If the pig is so light that it causes this issue, you probably were not walling, as I rarely have less than 75 lbs of misc. crap to come back with, with all food and water consumed.
I solo wall a lot and have never passed a belay anchor, but have needed to play around with a mess or two. Usually in the dark involving ropes stuck in a crack in the dark, with rain and wind. Better to be diligent and careful when descending than get yourself into the pickle described, but if it happens, just use the Standard Operating Procedures.
Gris get pretty dang hot when loaded with the whole kit and and me, so never saw them as a good alternative to rap. You already have two ropes to bring back, and the atc can do the job with an extra friction biner inserted to compensate for just about as hurculean a load as you can get. The Gri gets hot, as already stated, and when loaded heavily, very tiresome to try to rap smoothly when it has a buttton of weight on it. Just my $0.02.. Done this personal experiment once, and that is all it took.
I can however see rapping one strand with leaving lines fixed to try another attempt in the future, but no change in procedure needed.
Setting up the haul is not complicated, Piss of everyone Pete, and Chongos methods are all over the web. It is no big deal to anchor ones self, put the pulley on a loaded strand, put an ascender on, and then get a loop of slack by pulling the pig up manually. You only need to do this till there is enough to get the much desired downward pull slack. If you cannot acquire two feet of slack and the load is too heavy, eat more food more often, and go to the gym. Seriously, this would only need to result in a mechanical advantage hauling situation very rarely, but you already have the prussic slings on you , right. Add a couple of ovals and there you go. get it done
Burly Bob
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xtrmecat
Jul 9, 2013, 5:05 PM
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Why cut her loose, when you can just escape yourself? No magic, no tricks. Just straight forward stuff.
Burly Bob
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billcoe_
Jul 9, 2013, 5:58 PM
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jagster wrote: Apologies if the situation is a bit taxing for you. Maybe there will be simpler questions on this forum you can answer helpfully, rather than wasting everyone's time with pointless replies.
Love the British sarcasm thing. (not being sarcastic here either)
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rocknice2
Jul 9, 2013, 6:37 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: Why cut her loose, when you can just escape yourself? No magic, no tricks. Just straight forward stuff. Burly Bob
Probably need to cut the pig as often as some one over shoots the belay.
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skiclimb
Jul 10, 2013, 12:39 AM
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I prefer to be the primary and rap with the bag attached to my loop. Works great for me. I like the clearance, control and center of gravity better that way.
I prefer to rap on just one side of the two ropes with a gri-gri.
Gri-Gri-s suck a bit for rapping and do get hot.. however I do like the ability to lock off easily at any time for any reason including rocks hitting my head and knocking me out.
If I'm looking for a faster smoother rap then I happen to prefer the old square tuber to the crappy catchy less versatile ATC.. but again it's preference.. no perfect answer.. lotsa things work. and being familiar with many things and used to dealing with snafu's quickly is just part of being a good waller.
Theory.. nope..
How many folks you know bailed from the triple cracks. Might not exactly be bragging rights but I think of it as one my more unusual and well done moments on a wall. Bailing overhanging terrain quickly is a damn useful skill to have when needed.
It was also a place where rapping on a gri- gri made a hell of a lot of sense when I was reversing the roof backcleaning the whole way. Was also nice that my partner was able to intentionally rap past the anchor and send me the bag quickly on the tag line by simply unclipping the bag from his harness.
Lotsa ways to skin a cat on a wall.. I like mine, it works and is simple, versatile and can adjust quickly to various messes you run into on a wall.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jul 10, 2013, 9:00 PM)
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