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gblauer
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Oct 6, 2003, 12:05 AM
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All,
After receiving permission from the Berks Conservancy, Mitchal painstakingly bolted Neversink as a place to teach aspiring sport leaders. As of 10/5/03 all of the bolts are missing! ONly the rap rings remain. Here's the question...Does anyone know when the bolts were removed? By whom? Why?
Thanks for your help,
Gail
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 3:24 PM
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Contact Tom Bebe at reading rocks. He may be able to shed some light on the subject. Neversink is a very old climbing spot. All the stuff there has been freed. Chances are someone didnt like the retrobolting. I havn't been there in almost a decade so I could not tell you who pulled the bolts but Tom sees a lot of climbers through his gym and can most likely shed some light on the subject.
~Rob
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mustclimb69
Oct 6, 2003, 3:39 PM
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If it can be trad climbed bolts wil be removed.
usually why bolting is not always allowed
Also the teaching aspect may have ticked some people off because how crowded the climb will become. not to mention how polished it would become.
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pupjr
Oct 6, 2003, 4:28 PM
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I've climbed at neversink, and there is no way what mitch had bolted could've been protected by a trad rack. I know mitch, and he put a TON of work into bolting there. He also recieved permission to do the bolting, so just because some other climbers didn't like it, it doesn't give them the right to pull it. Who ever did that better have a damn good reason. and the reason it's because it will get too crowded is not good enough. Sorry people, but climbing is getting bigger, new places are being discovered, along with tons of new climbers are starting every day. Hell just look how many people sign on to this website every week. A big sorry to mitch and all the time and effort is the least he should get.
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 4:55 PM
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I feel bad if he put in a lot of time to retrobolt the routes at neversink. People should find out what has been freed before they drill routes over existing routes or climbers will chop them. I can honestly tell you that every line on that wall has been done either solo or on gear.
I dont know who pulled the bolts. I personally would rather see the bolts there and have safe climbs for people to climb but that still does not make it right.
Climbers have bolted stuff in PA I did on sparse gear but rather than chop the bolts I rationalized that it is better to have a route that everyone can enjoy saftley rather than some x-rated spook fest. So I left the bolts.
The best thing to do is contact the first ascentionist and ask them if its ok to retrobolt the route so there can be a safe route for people to climb. A lot of times they will let you do it. Its better to ask than have someone come and chop the bolts like in this instance.
Contact the guys who did the FA's at neversink and ask them if they mind if the bolts go back in. If you have permission from the land owner ask the FA ers and put the bolts back in.
~Rob
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mungeclimber
Oct 6, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: I've climbed at neversink, and there is no way what mitch had bolted could've been protected by a trad rack. I know mitch, and he put a TON of work into bolting there. He also recieved permission to do the bolting, so just because some other climbers didn't like it, it doesn't give them the right to pull it. Who ever did that better have a damn good reason. and the reason it's because it will get too crowded is not good enough. Sorry people, but climbing is getting bigger, new places are being discovered, along with tons of new climbers are starting every day. Hell just look how many people sign on to this website every week. A big sorry to mitch and all the time and effort is the least he should get.
I'm totally butting into a regional conversation, but in the spirit of dialogue...
1. often what we think can't be done, has been done.
2. Permission from whom? Is it the relevant community? There are often many small groups within a single local area that visit just on weekends, some just weekdays. You may never cross paths, except by bolt. And not everyone is online either.
3. Just because the climbing community is growing, doesn't mean we have to sacrifice ethics or style, whatever that may be for the region.
4. Always sux to lose bolting gear.
I'd recommend getting to know more folks so that "permission" is garnered from a broader spectrum. If permission is not obtained. Use a static line off anchors with loops in it to clip to teach sport climbing. Or go to a sport climbing area.
Cheers,
Munge
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Thats a funny ken nickhols quote - on an off note I recently met someone who bolted his driveway a few years ago.
~Rob
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mitchal
Oct 7, 2003, 1:36 AM
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Hi All,
Thank you for your sentiments.
As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route. They (the Conservancy) were very glad that I would take the effort to help fledgling leaders,as well as having some responsible people at the area instead of people using it as a dumpground and party spot.
As far as "first Ascent", No-one I know(and I have checked) has any idea who climbed the route the first time.
The route is one that cannot be protected with trad gear as it has no cracks,it's a slab climb.
Whoever took the bolts did not have the decency to try to fill in the holes which makes me think this was not an act of "ethics", rather one of greed.The area is strewn often with party trash and grafitti is painted on the rock,so, so much for it being an asthetic motive.
The climbers who frequent the area have done more to improve things than make them worse. I hope it was not a climber who took them out.
I would appreciate any light you may be able to shed on this.
The bolts will be replaced.
Thanks again,
Mitch
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dynoguy
Oct 7, 2003, 1:46 AM
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Mitchal wrote
I hope it was not a climber who took them out.
who else would have taken them? Who else would know how to get at them and remove them?
Just a thought
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roclimb
Oct 7, 2003, 2:37 AM
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Mitchal,
I would ask at Reding Rocks. I guarantee it was a climber from the Reding area who took out the bolts. Please dont' take offense by this but who else would bother going to neversink but a local who has no where else good to climb during the week. Ask Tom B he probably knows.
As for the FA's I know who did them and they dont live local anymore. But seriously you should chek into what has been done before going out bolting. Im not sure how long you have been climbing for because I dont know you but it was a long time ago 1980's that the stuff there was established. If you have only been climbing in the area for a short time (im not sure if this is the case or not) I understand how difficult it can be to know who did what 20 years + ago.
It would be great if you can find out who pulled the bolts in the Reding area and communicate with them because they will most likely take em out again. The same thing has been going on at Stoney Ridge. Someone has been bolting and someone has been chopping them then they reappear again. That's not you bolting at Stoney by any chance is it?
~Rob
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 3:51 AM
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In reply to: Mitchal, I would ask at Reding Rocks. I guarantee it was a climber from the Reding area who took out the bolts. Please dont' take offense by this but who else would bother going to neversink but a local who has no where else good to climb during the week. Ask Tom B he probably knows. As for the FA's I know who did them and they dont live local anymore. But seriously you should chek into what has been done before going out bolting. Im not sure how long you have been climbing for because I dont know you but it was a long time ago 1980's that the stuff there was established. If you have only been climbing in the area for a short time (im not sure if this is the case or not) I understand how difficult it can be to know who did what 20 years + ago. It would be great if you can find out who pulled the bolts in the Reding area and communicate with them because they will most likely take em out again. The same thing has been going on at Stoney Ridge. Someone has been bolting and someone has been chopping them then they reappear again. That's not you bolting at Stoney by any chance is it? ~Rob
Rob I think everyone of us which know Mitch are sure he wouldn't just retrobolt a climbable protected route. So you can stop w/ the lecturing.
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xcire
Oct 7, 2003, 6:15 AM
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Being new to the sport what is the problem with a rout being bolted? Cant a person still use trad to blimb the route even if it is bolted?
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 12:02 PM
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bolting a route is, ethically, a last resort. Generally, its only used on a face climb where there is no possibility of leading the climb w/ trad gear. However, the ethics of what should and shouldn't be bolted vary from region to region, even crag to crag.
Retrobolting is when a climb, which could be lead w/ trad, is bolted for the convience of sport climbers.
Hope that clarifies....now lets get back on topic.
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roclimb
Oct 7, 2003, 3:47 PM
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Randy,
Im not trying to lecture Mitchall. In fact im trying to point him in the right direction of who chopped his bolts so if he choses to replace them they wont dissapear again.
I personally dont care if there are bolts there or not. It is a FACT however that he did retrobolt existing routes that were climbed free there. Im not saying there was ample protection on them but a lot of people have climbed them ground up either on lead or solo or both. That means the route has been established a s a free climb and anyone who bolts a line over it is retrobolting an existing climb. That is unethical and that is why whoever chopped the bolts most likely did so. The guys who used to climb in that area were capable of soloing 5.12.
Again im not trying to lecture anyone im just trying to explain that whoever chopped the routes most likely also did it free and was pissed off about the bolts. So if you dont find out who it is they are just going to chop them again and again. If you do find out who did it you can talk to them and maybee get them to cool down about it. If you want I can have you contact Daryl and some of theother guys who freed the stuff there and Mitchal can ask them if they mind if he bolts the routes they freed.
~Rob
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hugepedro
Oct 7, 2003, 4:11 PM
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In reply to: Retrobolting is when a climb, which could be lead w/ trad, is bolted for the convience of sport climbers.
Just want to clarify:
Retrobolting is bolting a climb that was established in a different style (such as trad or free solo), or adding bolts to an established bolted line.
Routes that were established as free solos are legitimate routes and should not be changed without the permission of the FAist and the local community.
I imagine that if I had a free solo line that I was proud of I'd be pretty pissed if someone bolted it without my consent. I'd also be pissed if someone bolted someone elses free solo without the consensus of the community (because perhaps I was looking forward to climbing it in the original style).
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: I would appreciate any light you may be able to shed on this. The bolts will be replaced.
Mitchal,
You are placing yourself in the middle of a bolt war. Read between the lines dude. If you bolt, they will be chopped again. Why don't you talk to the locals, cause they are the ones who will chop those bolts again.
Nobody wins in a bolt war. Respect the first ascensionist.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 5:36 PM
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But what you outsiders don't understand is that MITCHAL IS A LOCAL!
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: But what you outsiders don't understand is that MITCHAL IS A LOCAL!
No, we understand that. We also understand that Mitchal pissed someone (ALSO A LOCAL, BTW) off, and has violated the first ascent principle that is one of the cornerstones of American climbing.
This has been beaten to death. Don't bolt other people's routes without their permission. Ultimately everyone loses as the rock gets scarred and access becomes a problem.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Wow, who would believe a little tiny climbing area, not even big enough to talk about would generate so much emotion. Neversink is a tiny, 35 foot face with a couple of lines. The only people that climb there are high schoolers who tend to free solo, some locals that want to get in a quick climb when they only have an hour to spare (like Mitchal), and those that want to learn to lead. Personally, that was the site of my first sport lead. Since then, I have watched a few others accomplish their first leads on this reasonably moderate climb. Since there was no way Mitchal was going to find the First Ascentist, he did the next best thing, he called and visted with the owners of the land, the Berks Conservancy. They encouraged hm to bolt neversink. So the bottom line is...Mitchal had every right to bolt the route. I guess we will never find out the truth. I seriously doubt the first ascentist came back on took the bolts. It would not be worth the effort, as Neversink isn't much to talk about.
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: So the bottom line is...Mitchal had every right to bolt the route.
Legally yes. Ethically, by the standards of American climbing, no. He is pissing on someone elses work.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 7:11 PM
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Crotch...if you saw this place you would have a completely different view. Most of the climbing is a 4th class scramble. Kids climb up with bowling balls, bikes, telephones, air conditioners and toss if off the face...just to have a party. There really is no "work" involved here. To take such claim to the so called "first" ascent is ludicrous. Kid have been scrambling over these rocks for years and years. Who says that this person was the FA? No one every knows. No, this was an act of malicious vandilism pure and simple. This had nothing to do with american standards or ethics on climbing.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: I seriously doubt the first ascentist came back on took the bolts. It would not be worth the effort, as Neversink isn't much to talk about.
Exactly.
In reply to: This had nothing to do with american standards or ethics on climbing.
Exactly.
A billy goat could have gotten the first FA of Neversink. We're not talking about a classic line, crotch. We're talking about Neversink (which you've obviously never seen or climbed at.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...mp.cgi?Detailed=4589
I mean, c'mon, we're wasting our time to discuss ethics and Neversink. Now should everything at Neversink be bolted for newbies? I hope that is no one's intent.
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alpiner
Oct 7, 2003, 7:37 PM
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So according to you locals, there was never a good reason for bolting it in the first place. What? Just so someone can learn how to clip a bolt? Very lame.
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Just my thoughts, but if it is public land, then yes, the first
ascensionist should have the right to disagree with someone
who wants to retro bolt the route.
however, this land is apparently privately owned. the owners
agreed to let the route be bolted for reasons all thier own.
maybe to make it a more popular climbing spot rather than
just some cliff a bunch of drunk bastards throw various
shit off of.
if i own land and let climbers have some fun doing some FA's,
that does not mean i am going to give them development
oversight of my land. period.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Alpiner Yes, that is right. It was a great place to teach aspiring sport leaders. It is a moderate climb the bolts were placed perfectly for beginners. It was a great place to learn. Not too many places boast easy sport climbs. As I stated earlier, I learned to lead there and can now lead 5.10 sport climbs. It was a great place to build confidence, take a few harmless falls and get the feel of leading.
What's so bad about that?
It is NOT a climbing mecca...it is a local crag mostly abused by kids who throw objects from the top.
Does every sport climb have to be an elitist event?
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Crotch...if you saw this place you would have a completely different view.
Maybe so. It is my belief that ethics apply everywhere, not just in Yosemite. Mind you, I've probably committed ethical violations myself, so.... glass house and all that.
In reply to: Who says that this person was the FA? No one every knows.
But we do know that Mitchal was NOT the FA. Adding bolts to an existing route is frowned upon in most places in the US.
This is a classic debate and we won't solve it here. If I keep posting, I'll end up sounding like an angry dick (if I already haven't) so I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.
I hope everything gets resolved to the satisfaction of the community and landowners.
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Does every sport climb have to be an elitist event?
I said I'd bow out, but I can't leave this one alone.
Does every rock in the world need to be bolted?
Does every climb need to be a sport climb?
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ljthawk
Oct 7, 2003, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: This is a classic debate and we won't solve it here. If I keep posting, I'll end up sounding like an angry dick (if I already haven't) so I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.
Actually Crotch, I think your comments, for them most part, were very diplomatic.
Always work to talk with the FA and the local climbing community before retro bolting. If the FA can't be found find the most prominent climbers around and talk to them, as well as any guide book authors in the area. If you can't find the FA and get his / her blessing then in order to do it right you have to get the blessing of the active climbing community. Land owners, while they can give legal permission, may not have a clue to the ethical ramifications of what they are allowing.
Bolt wars are a result of differing opinions. Regardless of the point of view one takes (to bolt or not to bolt), both parties are guilty of the resulting scarring of the rock from chopping, replacing, chopping, replacing,........
Work it out before the bit touches the stone.
L.J.
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mitchal
Oct 7, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Hi All,
I just talked with the 74 y/o woman who lives out front of me (On NEVERSINK MT.), She tells me her father and uncles climbed at neversink as youths when it was still a quarry. I was tempted to go accross the street and visit the graves where they are interred,but,thought it would be a moot point to ask them now.
The conservancy has the right to have this area bolted, or not,NOT the locals. It would not be in the locals interest to be VANDALIZING the route that they are happy to have as a teaching area for the local youths and others to enjoy the area.The removal and subsequent troubles just may cause them to close the area alltogether.Remember,,this is THEIR property they ALLOW us to climb on.
So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists.
The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy.
Mitchal
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists. The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy. Mitchal
Aaarrrrrgggg!!111 It's like not trying to look at a car crash. I can't stay away.
Do you expect anyone to believe that a 30-foot bolted sport route will keep people from injecting heroin, while the same climb on toprope won't?
You are now embroiled in a bolt-war. Do you know the history of bolt-wars, and is being a part of one how you want your contribution to climbing to be seen? I have a feeling you aren't interested in that because you sound like you are trying to make a positive contribution, but maybe I'm wrong. You still have a chance to de-escalate the situation. Why not talk to the local climbers as roclimb suggests and obtain a consensus before retrobolting again?
If you put in bolts without further discussion amongst the climbers in your area, you can bet someone will be back with a hacksaw, rotary tool, or hammer. Then you too will be a party to the further destruction of the rock and potential subsequent loss of access.
Please SLOW DOWN and talk to your fellow climbers before this goes any further.
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 10:08 PM
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what the hell? it's PRIVATE LAND. the LAND OWNERS
want THEIR LAND bolted. PERIOD.
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 10:11 PM
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In reply to: So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists. The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy.
Last person I knew who bragged that their glue in bolts wouldn't get chopped, found them on their doorway. Sounds more about ego than anything else, both ways.
In reply to: Do you expect anyone to believe that a 30-foot bolted sport route will keep people from injecting heroin, while the same climb on toprope won't?
Good point.
In reply to: Please SLOW DOWN and talk to your fellow climbers before this goes any further.
Tough row to hoe. Private land with old school history and ethics. Tough to respect both.
Get a long enough thick static line and tie some loops in it. Hang it down over whatever route you want folks to lead. Voila.
"Learning" area could also involve teaching and respecting the long time ground up or no retro bolting ethics of an area too. Might be a better long term lesson than the fast food sports routes that are being proposed.
Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 10:15 PM
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In reply to: what the hell? it's PRIVATE LAND. the LAND OWNERS want THEIR LAND bolted. PERIOD.
I suspect they were talked into it. Do you really think a non climbing private land owner gives a rip about climbing ethics?
Look at Frenchman's Coulee and the whole bolt chopping history there. Climber's usually approach private land owners about the climbing on their land, not the other way around.
Good snake oil salesman could convince folks on either side of the issue.
Brian in SLC
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 10:20 PM
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Good snake oil salesman could convince folks on either side of the issue.
i hear you on that one. i really do. but alot of this discussion seems
to ignore the wishes of the actual land owner. climbing ethics must
always take a back seat to the wishes of the land owner. whether or
not the land owner was convinced to one thing or another is a different
argument.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 10:41 PM
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First of all, to avoid this from becoming just another Bolt War debate. If non-PA climbers could STAY out of this thread that would keep this thread more focused, and more informed on what is going on.
Secondly, Mitch are you intending to bolt the whole crag or just that one climb?
Thirdly...not sure.
randy
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 10:57 PM
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Randy, as you know this particular climb is not protectable with trad gear. As such, Mitchal intends to rebolt only that climb. He had no intention to bolt any other climb. He wants to restore the ability to teach new sport leaders. (My 12 year old son did his first outdoor lead at Neversink).
As for Mitch talking to the locals. Mitch is a local, he actually LIVES on Neversink Mountain. Mitch spends hours hauling trash out of the climbing area at Neversink. He always talks to the climbers who seem to be enjoying his bolted line. Most of the climbers are not as local as Mitch.
Anyways...all we want to know is why? So if you know, please let us know so that we can clear up this mess.
Thanks all for this very lively discussion!
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pbjosh
Oct 7, 2003, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: So according to you locals, there was never a good reason for bolting it in the first place. What? Just so someone can learn how to clip a bolt? Very lame.
Exactly. Jesus, every claim that's being made for bolting is being rebutted by the same folks. HAH!
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pbjosh
Oct 7, 2003, 11:14 PM
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And before any counters that easy sport routes are great for teaching people to climb, don't bother. They're not. They teach people to lead easy sport routes, which is unbe-fcuking-lieavably easy to do anyways. They don't teach folks dcik about actual climbing. Gyms are a great place to learn not to back clip and not to step in front of the rope. Every piece of low angle rock in the world doesn't need to be bolted for this purpose.
I personally believe that easy sport climbs are retarded. The whole concept of getting used to falling and being ok to wing off routes is great when the routes are steep and difficult and moronic when the routes are easy and low angle. Bolts are great for hard gnarly routes and they're great for otherwise unprotectable stuff that gets put up on lead (ie, Tuolomne, or any other ground-up bolted locale), but a profusion of easy sport routes breeds a profusion of easy sport climbers which contradicts the original reasoning of sport climbing, to remove the fear and allow the climbing to be about maximum athletic difficulty.
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: First of all, to avoid this from becoming just another Bolt War debate. If non-PA climbers could STAY out of this thread that would keep this thread more focused, and more informed on what is going on.
This boltin' stuff is happening all over tarnation.
Why, then the world's mine oyster,
Which I with sword will open.
My bet is that you folks will solve more problems off the internet...
Good luck,
Brian in SLC
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gblauer
Moderator
Oct 8, 2003, 12:00 AM
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In reply to: I personally believe that easy sport climbs are retarded. The whole concept of getting used to falling and being ok to wing off routes is great when the routes are steep and difficult and moronic when the routes are easy and low angle. Bolts are great for hard gnarly routes and they're great for otherwise unprotectable stuff that gets put up on lead (ie, Tuolomne, or any other ground-up bolted locale
I guess every sport climb must be an elitist event. I have to say it would be wonderful to climb as well as you. Most mortals cannot even dream to climb the hard gnarly routes that you must dance up. The rest of us have to work hard, develop our skills, build our strength (mental and physical) to get up half the grade you climb.
So...that being said...enjoy your rock star status while you can. You too will get old, you too will have to climb easy sport routes one day...
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rockjess
Oct 8, 2003, 1:49 AM
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It may interest you jokers to know that Neversink Mtn. (despite what a shit hole you so called locals say it is) was at one time a popular spot to climb at. It was even mentioned in two different Pennsylvania guidebooks. Do you think that may have something to do with the fact the bolts were busted!? I cant believe you goofballs are in awe that someone removed your bolts. And you still want to know why? Why do you guys think that because you live a few blocks away you have the right to step on other peoples achievements. Obviously First Ascents mean nothing to you guys. Do you think because you guys (who by the sounds of things have been only climbing a short time) don't know who did the first asc that person does not exist. I have two F$%ing guidebooks that list the info about that spot. Of course Mitch does not give a s$&t because he says no matter what anybody says he is going to glue the bolts back in.
Do you guys have any clue about ethics or resolving issues. I feel really really really sad for the climbing ethics and standards in Pennsylvania.
By the way I have one serious questions. Do you elitists plan to retrobolt whatever you guys please from now on. Can I expect to go to my local crag at Chickies Rock and find Snow Flake bolted tomorrow? How about Chickies Direct. That has bad gear can I hope to find a bolt ladder stapled to it anytime soon? Seriously are you guys planning on bolting anywhere else?
Jessie
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kagunkie
Oct 10, 2003, 12:54 AM
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It seems as though you touched all the bases rockjess. WELL SAID!
I was recently over there and noticed that those bolt placements have multiple holes? I fail to see the reasoning behind drilling three holes to place one bolt could someone please clue me in on this advanced technique for placing bolts? It looks like someone got a new toy and wanted to play with it. I think it would have been better to practice on a piece of rock like a small boulder instead of scarring the cliff. Perhaps you could just spray over those holes with a can of florescent orange paint. I am truly saddened to see that a fellow climber, (someone I know) could possibly believe its a good idea to cause permanent defacement to our precious and limited resource to satisfy his desire for a legacy and for convenience sake. That is a small return indeed and insults the rock and those who came before you for all time to come. Please don't take it the wrong way but I do think you were wrong to drill that cliff for all the above reasons.
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kagunkie
Oct 10, 2003, 1:43 AM
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In reply to: (My 12 year old son did his first outdoor lead at Neversink).
Perhaps it would be better to pre-place gear on an easy route and allow "aspiring sport leaders" to clip fixed gear without bolting established lines. :idea:
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rwaltermyer
Oct 10, 2003, 11:15 AM
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or go to birdsboro which is 10 minutes down the street
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mitchal
Oct 13, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Hi,
I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there. This can be verified if you just ask climbracer.As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods.Whoever pulled my bolts might as well have done the flourescent painting as the holes they left behind look WAY worse than the color matching anchors I installed. Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.I can't believe (someone I know) would bash me without knowing the facts in the matter!
Thanks for your support Randy.
How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
Mitch
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capn_morgan
Oct 13, 2003, 9:07 PM
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I apologize if I offend anyone. But most of the last three pages of posts all seem to be based on assumptions and sound very childish. I think we all know that some people do not think that there should be any bolts anywhere. But that was not what was asked. It was a simple question and there have been a few suggestions as to where he may find the answeres. Most of the post though seem to be based on the fact that something was bolted and they do not have personal knowledge that the FAionist oked it. c'mon people. grow up. I have no more knowledge about this than most of you but to me it sounds like mitchel did this in the most responsible way possible.
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2003, 7:27 PM
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Capn Morgan: I for one am offended! How dare you show up on this site with logic and facts. If everybody kept those opinions which were based on false assumptions and rumors to themselves, we would all be sitting around waiting for something to happen in the deaffining silence!!!1 :wink:
Well I guess you ended this thread with that obvious bit of logic and fact. Damn. :twisted: :evil:
:D :D :D
Regards:
Bill
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capn_morgan
Oct 15, 2003, 7:40 PM
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"Well I guess you ended this thread with that obvious bit of logic and fact. Damn. " ~billcoe_
sorry bout that..ill try and keep my logic to myself from now on :P
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kagunkie
Oct 22, 2003, 2:57 PM
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If you don't mind Id like to ask several questions about what was done at Neversink and your defense of it.
You said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
You said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage already existing there?
You said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
You said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
You said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a very experienced climber to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long historiy of American climbing ethics.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill? In my opinion if you don't do the work of doing the first ascent you haven't got the right to decide how it will be climbed in the future, so i hope your not expecting to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate others. Please don't take it personally but it looks to me like the work of someone who needs to climb outdoors for a few more years and with more experienced partners in more areas to develope a more realistic view of whats ethical in the climbing world. :?:
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climb_plastic
Oct 22, 2003, 4:11 PM
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If it's OK to remove bolts then how come no one knows who did it? Sounds like the guy who did it didn't want to get caught. I'm sure he didn't just go out there in the middle of the day and cut them off. I'm sure a lot of the sport climbs I've done could be freesolo'd or climbed trad but I wouldn't want anyone chopping the bolts off.
What I've noticed is that the trad guys are very vocal, like they're protecting something that's not even theirs. I'm not sure what makes them so righteous. What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
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rwaltermyer
Oct 23, 2003, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
Well said.
I swore that I was done with thread. But to Kagunkie, do you know Mitch? He's a very responsible local, IMO. I understand that you [Kagunkie] are just trying to get answers, but if you don't know him, then your facts are skewed too.
Anyway. Let me make a case for Mitch.
1st, in regards to the FAer, Neversink has been climbed for years. It could have been in the 19th century for all we know. And with Neversink being as small as it is, the FAer (if he's still alive) is no where to be found. C'mon it wasn't a five-star, classic route we're talking about here.
2nd, the route couldn't be led with trad, it was an unprotected face.
3rd, Mitch consulted the owner (the next best move after being unable to contact the FAer)
4th, the previous hole scars could have been from the same idiot who ripped Mitch's bolts out, so don't blame those on Mitch.
And 5th, and most importantly: if I just blew up Neversink with some TNT this morning, no one would know about it until next week sometime. The place is terrible. Nothing more than a local--VERY LOCAL-- crag. So who cares?! What the big deal? (This argument would NOT stand by itself as a case to bolt, only when considering Neversink, and the previous four statements.)
When this is considered with the previous four arguments (which are obviously more ethically correct) one can see that Mitch didn't do anything wrong.
randy
PS. Kagunkie: its been a while since you've been on RC.com. Nice to hear from you again (although, not in this particular thread)
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kagunkie
Oct 25, 2003, 3:05 AM
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Just a few comments and a request to have my questions answered.
In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
This question is irrelevant since the argument is about drilling holes into the rock and you don't drill holes to place clean gear.
Nobody cares what style you climb in as long as it doesn't damage the rock.
In reply to: But to Kagunkie, do you know Mitch? He's a very responsible local, IMO. I understand that you [Kagunkie] are just trying to get answers, but if you don't know him, then your facts are skewed too.
I do know Mitch, he's a great guy and I like him very much but I have to concider that at this time last year he was afraid to climb a hundred feet of 5.5 on toprope and has only been climbing for two years or so. This makes it painfully clear that he is definitely not experienced enough to make the decision to forever change the nature of this or any other cliff. (it's not personal it's just a fact as much as it might hurt to face) it takes a long time (many years) to develop the experience and insight to make these decisions without making mistakes, and thats what he did make a mistake we all make them it's not unusual just something to be learned from. Sadly the rock and nature of the climb is forever changed from his mistake. Everyone who has climbed that face will never again have the privelage of climbing the same climb they origionally climbed now that it is marred by the addition of those holes, that climb is degraded for all time.
My facts are definitely not skewed.
In reply to: 1st, in regards to the FAer, Neversink has been climbed for years. It could have been in the 19th century for all we know. And with Neversink being as small as it is, the FAer (if he's still alive) is no where to be found. C'mon it wasn't a five-star, classic route we're talking about here.
You're right it has been climbed for years without any bolts.The first assenter is still alive and well. Wether he cares or not is a different question. you're right its not a five star mega classic but it is the best line there and deserves to be treated with respect on it's own merit.
In reply to: 2nd, the route couldn't be led with trad, it was an unprotected face.
In reply to: 3rd, Mitch consulted the owner (the next best move after being unable to contact the FAer)
In reply to: 4th, the previous hole scars could have been from the same idiot who ripped Mitch's bolts out, so don't blame those on Mitch.
Why would someone after removing bolts drill more holes next to the ones left behind by the first bolts? By his own admission the holes were there before he added the new ones. get you're facts straight.
In reply to: And 5th, and most importantly: if I just blew up Neversink with some TNT this morning, no one would know about it until next week sometime. The place is terrible. Nothing more than a local--VERY LOCAL-- crag. So who cares?! What the big deal? (This argument would NOT stand by itself as a case to bolt, only when considering Neversink, and the previous four statements.)
Wether you climb there three times a week or once every three years it's still a valuable resource that should be respected. How many other cliffs of equal or better quality are there within a twenty mile radius?
Who cares?! I do and so do others, evidently you're not among them.
In reply to: PS. Kagunkie: its been a while since you've been on RC.com. Nice to hear from you again (although, not in this particular thread)
i've been around just not seeing much here worth taking the time to read.
Though I thank you for you're input.
My few questions are still not answered so just to avoid confusion here they are again.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: Hi, I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there. This can be verified if you just ask climbracer.As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods.Whoever pulled my bolts might as well have done the flourescent painting as the holes they left behind look WAY worse than the color matching anchors I installed. Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.I can't believe (someone I know) would bash me without knowing the facts in the matter! Thanks for your support Randy. How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack. Mitch
My few questions are still not answered so just to avoid confusion here they are again.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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climbinganne
Oct 27, 2003, 10:12 PM
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WOW!!!
my head hurts
and my dog was skunked
and *shock* keith is learning bbcode
group f*cking hug already
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 10:57 PM
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Hi Anne nice to hear from you. All I want are the answers to my questions. Is that too much to ask? :?:
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climb_plastic
Oct 27, 2003, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd? This question is irrelevant since the argument is about drilling holes into the rock and you don't drill holes to place clean gear. Nobody cares what style you climb in as long as it doesn't damage the rock. |
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kagunkie
Oct 27, 2003, 11:36 PM
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In reply to: Someone got permission to bolt and so they bolted and then someone else came along and removed the bolts because he thought they shouldn't be there because it can be climbed with pro. The bolts are already there so what good does it do to remove them? All climbing can damage rock...including using pro or even free solo so that can't be the issue.
How do you know what the person was thinking without asking them personally?
I agree with the bolts removal, though I don't know the persons reasoning behind what they did I have my own reasons wich are listed above.
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climbinganne
Oct 27, 2003, 11:55 PM
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In reply to: Hi Anne nice to hear from you. All I want are the answers to my questions. Is that too much to ask? :?:
and always gneiss to see you ;)
In reply to: I agree with the bolts removal
the last statement says everything keith...
i have never climbed neversink...i remember when mitch was in the process
so does kathy, i am sure she can fill you in more than i can
i am not getting in the middle of this
we all have trusted our lives to each other
let's just agree to disagree
maybe you two should get together - WTF????
you owe each other more than that
++ postcount for male testosterone
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rwaltermyer
Oct 28, 2003, 12:32 AM
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In reply to: i am not getting in the middle of this
I should have taken the high road too... but i couldn't stand all of these battering on Mitch w/o the facts. (Which I don't know, either. So I'm checking out too).
I'd say its pretty fair to say that these thread won't resolve this controversy anytime soon.
randy
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climb_plastic
Oct 28, 2003, 2:22 AM
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In reply to: How do you know what the person was thinking without asking them personally? I agree with the bolts removal, though I don't know the persons reasoning behind what they did I have my own reasons wich are listed above.
Why else would he do it? You said earlier that rock damage was the issue but if the guy is so worried about rock damage then how would removing the bolts help. Leaving the bolts there just means that less people would use pro on the route thus saving the the rock from further damage.
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kagunkie
Oct 29, 2003, 2:44 AM
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Well it seems as though suficient time has passed for Mitch to reply to my questions here but maby he didnt see them yet so I'll give it one more try.
Here they are again...
These questions are directed expressly to Mitch, please no one els need reply.
Mitch said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
Mitch said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage/holes already existing there?
Mitch said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
Mitch said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
Mitch said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a group of very experienced climbers to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long history of American climbing ethics and to come to a reasonable consensus.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill?
I hope your not planning to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate a few people.
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socalclimber
Oct 30, 2003, 3:29 AM
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The 1st and 2nd looked like a botched job by a gumby with a power drill. The third is too hard to tell, but I am guessing it's the same. Did Mitch drill all those holes, or did he drill new ones??
Also, even if he did not drill the other holes, why did he not fill them? :twisted:
Some of those holes look very suspect in terms of "hand drilled". You would have to really work to get that kind of taper on the edge from a hand drill. Who's been playing with power tools? :shock:
Sorry, I just don't have time to read the whole 5 page thread. What's the truth here?
Robert
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rwaltermyer
Oct 30, 2003, 1:34 PM
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Now wait a second.
I initally looked at these pictures and didn't think anything of it, but OBVIOUSLY, you took these shoot BEFORE the bolts were chopped. (And were ticked (& pretty motivated) to take those pictures.
Keith, forgive me for pointing the finger (but no one has asked yet)...
Did you chop the bolts?
If not. I apologize.
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overlord
Oct 30, 2003, 2:07 PM
Post #65 of 67
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Registered: Mar 25, 2002
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In reply to: 2. Permission from whom? Is it the relevant community? There are often many small groups within a single local area that visit just on weekends, some just weekdays. You may never cross paths, except by bolt. And not everyone is online either.
it doesnt matter what the community thinks. the ONLY permission that matters is that of the FAer. so if whoever did the FA allowed the bolts to be added its ok, no matter what the community says, and if the FAer said that he cant bolt its wron even if the wole world say its OK.
if he got the permission from the FAer, nobody should pull the bolts. if the dont like it, maybe they should make the FA themselves.
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kagunkie
Oct 30, 2003, 2:31 PM
Post #66 of 67
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Registered: Dec 14, 2000
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In reply to: Now wait a second. I initally looked at these pictures and didn't think anything of it, but OBVIOUSLY, you took these shoot BEFORE the bolts were chopped. (And were ticked (& pretty motivated) to take those pictures. Keith, forgive me for pointing the finger (but no one has asked yet)... Did you chop the bolts? If not. I apologize.
No it wasn't me but yes I was definately pretty shocked to see what was done there and just happend to have my camera with me as I usually do when I go climbing.
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kagunkie
Nov 1, 2003, 3:16 AM
Post #67 of 67
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Too bad...
[violet]COWARDICE[/violet] under fire is a common affliction of weenie bolters. I knew there was no way you'd be able to give a relevant answer to my questions. maybe you should consider a new hobby.
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