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gblauer
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Oct 6, 2003, 12:05 AM
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All,
After receiving permission from the Berks Conservancy, Mitchal painstakingly bolted Neversink as a place to teach aspiring sport leaders. As of 10/5/03 all of the bolts are missing! ONly the rap rings remain. Here's the question...Does anyone know when the bolts were removed? By whom? Why?
Thanks for your help,
Gail
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 3:24 PM
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Contact Tom Bebe at reading rocks. He may be able to shed some light on the subject. Neversink is a very old climbing spot. All the stuff there has been freed. Chances are someone didnt like the retrobolting. I havn't been there in almost a decade so I could not tell you who pulled the bolts but Tom sees a lot of climbers through his gym and can most likely shed some light on the subject.
~Rob
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mustclimb69
Oct 6, 2003, 3:39 PM
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If it can be trad climbed bolts wil be removed.
usually why bolting is not always allowed
Also the teaching aspect may have ticked some people off because how crowded the climb will become. not to mention how polished it would become.
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pupjr
Oct 6, 2003, 4:28 PM
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I've climbed at neversink, and there is no way what mitch had bolted could've been protected by a trad rack. I know mitch, and he put a TON of work into bolting there. He also recieved permission to do the bolting, so just because some other climbers didn't like it, it doesn't give them the right to pull it. Who ever did that better have a damn good reason. and the reason it's because it will get too crowded is not good enough. Sorry people, but climbing is getting bigger, new places are being discovered, along with tons of new climbers are starting every day. Hell just look how many people sign on to this website every week. A big sorry to mitch and all the time and effort is the least he should get.
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 4:55 PM
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I feel bad if he put in a lot of time to retrobolt the routes at neversink. People should find out what has been freed before they drill routes over existing routes or climbers will chop them. I can honestly tell you that every line on that wall has been done either solo or on gear.
I dont know who pulled the bolts. I personally would rather see the bolts there and have safe climbs for people to climb but that still does not make it right.
Climbers have bolted stuff in PA I did on sparse gear but rather than chop the bolts I rationalized that it is better to have a route that everyone can enjoy saftley rather than some x-rated spook fest. So I left the bolts.
The best thing to do is contact the first ascentionist and ask them if its ok to retrobolt the route so there can be a safe route for people to climb. A lot of times they will let you do it. Its better to ask than have someone come and chop the bolts like in this instance.
Contact the guys who did the FA's at neversink and ask them if they mind if the bolts go back in. If you have permission from the land owner ask the FA ers and put the bolts back in.
~Rob
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mungeclimber
Oct 6, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: I've climbed at neversink, and there is no way what mitch had bolted could've been protected by a trad rack. I know mitch, and he put a TON of work into bolting there. He also recieved permission to do the bolting, so just because some other climbers didn't like it, it doesn't give them the right to pull it. Who ever did that better have a damn good reason. and the reason it's because it will get too crowded is not good enough. Sorry people, but climbing is getting bigger, new places are being discovered, along with tons of new climbers are starting every day. Hell just look how many people sign on to this website every week. A big sorry to mitch and all the time and effort is the least he should get.
I'm totally butting into a regional conversation, but in the spirit of dialogue...
1. often what we think can't be done, has been done.
2. Permission from whom? Is it the relevant community? There are often many small groups within a single local area that visit just on weekends, some just weekdays. You may never cross paths, except by bolt. And not everyone is online either.
3. Just because the climbing community is growing, doesn't mean we have to sacrifice ethics or style, whatever that may be for the region.
4. Always sux to lose bolting gear.
I'd recommend getting to know more folks so that "permission" is garnered from a broader spectrum. If permission is not obtained. Use a static line off anchors with loops in it to clip to teach sport climbing. Or go to a sport climbing area.
Cheers,
Munge
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roclimb
Oct 6, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Thats a funny ken nickhols quote - on an off note I recently met someone who bolted his driveway a few years ago.
~Rob
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mitchal
Oct 7, 2003, 1:36 AM
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Hi All,
Thank you for your sentiments.
As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route. They (the Conservancy) were very glad that I would take the effort to help fledgling leaders,as well as having some responsible people at the area instead of people using it as a dumpground and party spot.
As far as "first Ascent", No-one I know(and I have checked) has any idea who climbed the route the first time.
The route is one that cannot be protected with trad gear as it has no cracks,it's a slab climb.
Whoever took the bolts did not have the decency to try to fill in the holes which makes me think this was not an act of "ethics", rather one of greed.The area is strewn often with party trash and grafitti is painted on the rock,so, so much for it being an asthetic motive.
The climbers who frequent the area have done more to improve things than make them worse. I hope it was not a climber who took them out.
I would appreciate any light you may be able to shed on this.
The bolts will be replaced.
Thanks again,
Mitch
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dynoguy
Oct 7, 2003, 1:46 AM
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Mitchal wrote
I hope it was not a climber who took them out.
who else would have taken them? Who else would know how to get at them and remove them?
Just a thought
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roclimb
Oct 7, 2003, 2:37 AM
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Mitchal,
I would ask at Reding Rocks. I guarantee it was a climber from the Reding area who took out the bolts. Please dont' take offense by this but who else would bother going to neversink but a local who has no where else good to climb during the week. Ask Tom B he probably knows.
As for the FA's I know who did them and they dont live local anymore. But seriously you should chek into what has been done before going out bolting. Im not sure how long you have been climbing for because I dont know you but it was a long time ago 1980's that the stuff there was established. If you have only been climbing in the area for a short time (im not sure if this is the case or not) I understand how difficult it can be to know who did what 20 years + ago.
It would be great if you can find out who pulled the bolts in the Reding area and communicate with them because they will most likely take em out again. The same thing has been going on at Stoney Ridge. Someone has been bolting and someone has been chopping them then they reappear again. That's not you bolting at Stoney by any chance is it?
~Rob
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 3:51 AM
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In reply to: Mitchal, I would ask at Reding Rocks. I guarantee it was a climber from the Reding area who took out the bolts. Please dont' take offense by this but who else would bother going to neversink but a local who has no where else good to climb during the week. Ask Tom B he probably knows. As for the FA's I know who did them and they dont live local anymore. But seriously you should chek into what has been done before going out bolting. Im not sure how long you have been climbing for because I dont know you but it was a long time ago 1980's that the stuff there was established. If you have only been climbing in the area for a short time (im not sure if this is the case or not) I understand how difficult it can be to know who did what 20 years + ago. It would be great if you can find out who pulled the bolts in the Reding area and communicate with them because they will most likely take em out again. The same thing has been going on at Stoney Ridge. Someone has been bolting and someone has been chopping them then they reappear again. That's not you bolting at Stoney by any chance is it? ~Rob
Rob I think everyone of us which know Mitch are sure he wouldn't just retrobolt a climbable protected route. So you can stop w/ the lecturing.
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xcire
Oct 7, 2003, 6:15 AM
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Being new to the sport what is the problem with a rout being bolted? Cant a person still use trad to blimb the route even if it is bolted?
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 12:02 PM
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bolting a route is, ethically, a last resort. Generally, its only used on a face climb where there is no possibility of leading the climb w/ trad gear. However, the ethics of what should and shouldn't be bolted vary from region to region, even crag to crag.
Retrobolting is when a climb, which could be lead w/ trad, is bolted for the convience of sport climbers.
Hope that clarifies....now lets get back on topic.
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roclimb
Oct 7, 2003, 3:47 PM
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Randy,
Im not trying to lecture Mitchall. In fact im trying to point him in the right direction of who chopped his bolts so if he choses to replace them they wont dissapear again.
I personally dont care if there are bolts there or not. It is a FACT however that he did retrobolt existing routes that were climbed free there. Im not saying there was ample protection on them but a lot of people have climbed them ground up either on lead or solo or both. That means the route has been established a s a free climb and anyone who bolts a line over it is retrobolting an existing climb. That is unethical and that is why whoever chopped the bolts most likely did so. The guys who used to climb in that area were capable of soloing 5.12.
Again im not trying to lecture anyone im just trying to explain that whoever chopped the routes most likely also did it free and was pissed off about the bolts. So if you dont find out who it is they are just going to chop them again and again. If you do find out who did it you can talk to them and maybee get them to cool down about it. If you want I can have you contact Daryl and some of theother guys who freed the stuff there and Mitchal can ask them if they mind if he bolts the routes they freed.
~Rob
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hugepedro
Oct 7, 2003, 4:11 PM
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In reply to: Retrobolting is when a climb, which could be lead w/ trad, is bolted for the convience of sport climbers.
Just want to clarify:
Retrobolting is bolting a climb that was established in a different style (such as trad or free solo), or adding bolts to an established bolted line.
Routes that were established as free solos are legitimate routes and should not be changed without the permission of the FAist and the local community.
I imagine that if I had a free solo line that I was proud of I'd be pretty pissed if someone bolted it without my consent. I'd also be pissed if someone bolted someone elses free solo without the consensus of the community (because perhaps I was looking forward to climbing it in the original style).
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: I would appreciate any light you may be able to shed on this. The bolts will be replaced.
Mitchal,
You are placing yourself in the middle of a bolt war. Read between the lines dude. If you bolt, they will be chopped again. Why don't you talk to the locals, cause they are the ones who will chop those bolts again.
Nobody wins in a bolt war. Respect the first ascensionist.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 5:36 PM
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But what you outsiders don't understand is that MITCHAL IS A LOCAL!
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: But what you outsiders don't understand is that MITCHAL IS A LOCAL!
No, we understand that. We also understand that Mitchal pissed someone (ALSO A LOCAL, BTW) off, and has violated the first ascent principle that is one of the cornerstones of American climbing.
This has been beaten to death. Don't bolt other people's routes without their permission. Ultimately everyone loses as the rock gets scarred and access becomes a problem.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Wow, who would believe a little tiny climbing area, not even big enough to talk about would generate so much emotion. Neversink is a tiny, 35 foot face with a couple of lines. The only people that climb there are high schoolers who tend to free solo, some locals that want to get in a quick climb when they only have an hour to spare (like Mitchal), and those that want to learn to lead. Personally, that was the site of my first sport lead. Since then, I have watched a few others accomplish their first leads on this reasonably moderate climb. Since there was no way Mitchal was going to find the First Ascentist, he did the next best thing, he called and visted with the owners of the land, the Berks Conservancy. They encouraged hm to bolt neversink. So the bottom line is...Mitchal had every right to bolt the route. I guess we will never find out the truth. I seriously doubt the first ascentist came back on took the bolts. It would not be worth the effort, as Neversink isn't much to talk about.
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: So the bottom line is...Mitchal had every right to bolt the route.
Legally yes. Ethically, by the standards of American climbing, no. He is pissing on someone elses work.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 7:11 PM
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Crotch...if you saw this place you would have a completely different view. Most of the climbing is a 4th class scramble. Kids climb up with bowling balls, bikes, telephones, air conditioners and toss if off the face...just to have a party. There really is no "work" involved here. To take such claim to the so called "first" ascent is ludicrous. Kid have been scrambling over these rocks for years and years. Who says that this person was the FA? No one every knows. No, this was an act of malicious vandilism pure and simple. This had nothing to do with american standards or ethics on climbing.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: I seriously doubt the first ascentist came back on took the bolts. It would not be worth the effort, as Neversink isn't much to talk about.
Exactly.
In reply to: This had nothing to do with american standards or ethics on climbing.
Exactly.
A billy goat could have gotten the first FA of Neversink. We're not talking about a classic line, crotch. We're talking about Neversink (which you've obviously never seen or climbed at.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...mp.cgi?Detailed=4589
I mean, c'mon, we're wasting our time to discuss ethics and Neversink. Now should everything at Neversink be bolted for newbies? I hope that is no one's intent.
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alpiner
Oct 7, 2003, 7:37 PM
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So according to you locals, there was never a good reason for bolting it in the first place. What? Just so someone can learn how to clip a bolt? Very lame.
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Just my thoughts, but if it is public land, then yes, the first
ascensionist should have the right to disagree with someone
who wants to retro bolt the route.
however, this land is apparently privately owned. the owners
agreed to let the route be bolted for reasons all thier own.
maybe to make it a more popular climbing spot rather than
just some cliff a bunch of drunk bastards throw various
shit off of.
if i own land and let climbers have some fun doing some FA's,
that does not mean i am going to give them development
oversight of my land. period.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2003, 7:45 PM
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Alpiner Yes, that is right. It was a great place to teach aspiring sport leaders. It is a moderate climb the bolts were placed perfectly for beginners. It was a great place to learn. Not too many places boast easy sport climbs. As I stated earlier, I learned to lead there and can now lead 5.10 sport climbs. It was a great place to build confidence, take a few harmless falls and get the feel of leading.
What's so bad about that?
It is NOT a climbing mecca...it is a local crag mostly abused by kids who throw objects from the top.
Does every sport climb have to be an elitist event?
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