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sspssp
Feb 24, 2004, 8:59 PM
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A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated). Obviously, if you can get something better in, you should. If you can't, it might protect you. Adding a screamer is a good idea. If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
There was a review not too long ago in one of the climbing mags that suggested sliders (lowe balls or whatever they are called now), would generally have a greater holding power than a similar sized micro cam. I would certainly believe it.
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olderic
Feb 24, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #27 of 85
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In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use.
Your rant was semi logical up until this statement - once you uttered this your inexperience became clear and you lost all credibility....
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timmah
Feb 24, 2004, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
Sspssp probably knows this, but just to remind anyone that's forgotten, Aliens don't have cam stops and won't hold passively.
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ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 9:36 PM
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there is a difference between terms here
Aid Only: means that it will only hold body weight or a small fall
the black alien is not an aid only piece .. its rating is good enough to hold a leader fall in a trad situation ..
.. and a lead fall doing aid can be as bad as a lead fall doiing trad .. in fact aid is probably worse because the climber weighs about 30 lbs more than when free climbing .. (the weight of the rack)
i took a fall on a black alien on the 10th pitch of zodiac .. the piece was well below my feet ..
.. when i placed the alien i was very sure that it was a perfect placement .. so i was super excited that it had held ..
.. the alien didn't even budge from its placement .. and the cams were not deformed .. in fact i still carry that piece on my rack ..
-- ricardo
.. i carry the piece on my trad rack .. but rarely place it .. (it has to be the ONLY placement possible for me to use it.. )
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ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 9:39 PM
Post #30 of 85
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In reply to: Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing! Stephen
well shit -- if you want to sell it.. i'l take it off your hands...
-- ricardo
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headcase
Feb 24, 2004, 10:01 PM
Post #31 of 85
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In reply to: Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing!
Stephen, don't be a dumais. Put it on your rack, climb awhile (read: all summer), find those few times when it's the best piece for the situation, be particular about the placement, then get on with it...
Tom
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kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 10:07 PM
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Ricardo-
Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock.
Stephen
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ricardol
Feb 24, 2004, 10:32 PM
Post #33 of 85
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In reply to: Ricardo- Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock. Stephen
.. i usually sell my used gear for 50% ..
but since its new .. how about 30% off ..
lets see thats about $16 from $54
.. $38 ..
.. truthfully you might find someone that will give you close to what you paid for it .. and i suggest that you do keep it ..and carry it on your rack .. one day .. it will be the only piece that fits ..
.. i've once had to build a belay out of
1 - black alien
1 - blue alien
1 - larger piece
scary shit.. (granted thouh i was pretty secure as i belayed behind a large block)
-- ricardo
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sspssp
Feb 24, 2004, 10:52 PM
Post #34 of 85
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In reply to: In reply to: If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out. Sspssp probably knows this, but just to remind anyone that's forgotten, Aliens don't have cam stops and won't hold passively.
Yes, I did know this. The chance of it holding is small, but I had a black alien "shift" on me under body weight. It slipped about 2 inches vertically and then held. Surprised the hell out of me. Surprised that it slipped and even more surprised that it stopped.
In addition to my "bury the head" comment above, I would also generally recommend "overcamming" the unit [again as much as you dare]. The expansion amount is so little on the black alien, start with it cammed almost all the way down. This will give a little greater margin.
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drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 11:13 PM
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A black alien is better than nothing.
A screamer on it is good sense.
However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one.
The cams themselves, because of size, have much reduced holding power, even though the pieces "breaking" strength is high. It is not a liabilty issue, because no one could sue me successfully resultant from a behavior linked to a post here. Simply put: The cams will rip out of the rock at a lower force than would be required to bust the thing.
I had my watch keep me from falling 50 feet once by having the crystal catch itself on a rock crsytal, but I wouldn't advocate using my Swiss Army Watch as a viable method of protection.
As for as calling it an aid piece, it is meant in this way: The piece is designed to hold body-weight placements and little more. Anything beyond that is icing on the not so rich-and-frosty cake.
I am sure one could find a situation in which duct tapes has held falls.......
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okinawatricam
Feb 24, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #36 of 85
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While climbing at looking Glass I took a thirty footer on the BLack Alien. Maybe it's not designed for Free climbs, but when you need a peice, use what ever fits best. Proper placement is key.
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tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #37 of 85
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In reply to: Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing!
Actually, someone did say SCREAMER, (me), but it certainly warrants repeating.
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tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 11:21 PM
Post #38 of 85
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In reply to: Ricardo- Just out of curiosity, what would you offer, or anyone else that wants a brand new black alien?? It has never been placed in rock, only on my fire place, so i guess there might be a scratch at most, but it has never even seen rock. Stephen
I sent you a PM with an offer for a "approved for trad use" cam to trade for your alien. PM me if interested.
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slcliffdiver
Feb 24, 2004, 11:36 PM
Post #39 of 85
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In reply to: I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. If you bury the cam deep and it starts to rip out, there is a chance [small] that it might catch on something before it comes all the way out.
If you put it too deep to see the cams well you could end up with inverted cams and a pulled alien. It's hard enough to see the inner cams with shallow placements. Part of the skill of placing micro cams is finding that line between how close to the edge is too close and how far is to deep to see the inner cams. One question why do you think the lip of the rock on thin cracks will break easier than large cracks?
Will I trust one no, but how happy I will be with depends on placement and fall factor I'm expecting. If I'm carrying one I'm going to have a screamer to go with it.
In reply to: A black alien is better than nothing. A screamer on it is good sense. However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one.
Well said and ditto.
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davidji
Feb 24, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #40 of 85
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In reply to: .. one day .. it will be the only piece that fits ..
Good suggestions.
There are other cams in that size range though. The #3 WC Zero overlaps but is smaller (10kn IIRC). The #4 is slightly larger with a little overlap. The .1 Micro Camalot is just a little bigger (don't know the strength though).
I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else.
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iamthewallress
Feb 25, 2004, 12:18 AM
Post #41 of 85
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In reply to: I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else.
Why?
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crotch
Feb 25, 2004, 12:22 AM
Post #42 of 85
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In reply to: In reply to: Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing! Actually, someone did say SCREAMER, (me), but it certainly warrants repeating.
One more time. Everybody, all together now.
SCREAMER.
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tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 12:34 AM
Post #43 of 85
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In reply to: POST #1 The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period. It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation. Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.
POST#2 (Small step back) I just spoke to CCH.
.This does not mean it will not hold a free climbing fall, only that it is not intended to do so. The Blue Alien is the smallest Alien rated for free climbing falls. POST#3(back pedal, back pedal, back pedal, back pedal) A black alien is better than nothing. A screamer on it is good sense. However, if using black aliens is part of a long term startegy in protecting difficult moves while free climbing, the strategy is a bad one. The cams themselves, because of size, have much reduced holding power, even though the pieces "breaking" strength is high. It is not a liabilty issue, because no one could sue me successfully resultant from a behavior linked to a post here. Simply put: The cams will rip out of the rock at a lower force than would be required to bust the thing. .......
Say what you really mean the first time or admit that you were wrong. Read the posts. Black aliens can, and have, held significant falls. They are useful pieces of protection, even for trad, on certain types of rock.
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iamthewallress
Feb 25, 2004, 12:35 AM
Post #44 of 85
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In reply to: One more time. Everybody, all together now. SCREAMER.
Or you could try my favorite...Do everything that you possibly can to AVOID FALLING ON YOUR UNTRUSTWORTHY GEAR. I fully agree that the placing the black alien is safer than placing nothing at all, but respecting your limits and staying within them when climbing over delicate/suspect gear is better pro than winging on a black alien with a screamer any day.
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tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 12:38 AM
Post #45 of 85
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't own any cams of that size. I carry the black Alien sometimes, because it's on a couple of my partners' racks. I guess if I were to buy something in that size now, I'd buy something else. Why?
Yeah davidji, why. :? Just comparing the rated strength of several micro cams is a horrible way to make a choice as to which will serve you better as a piece of protection.
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diesel___smoke
Feb 25, 2004, 12:57 AM
Post #46 of 85
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Kodos, ever use a #.1 or .2 camalot for trad climbing?
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dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 4:18 AM
Post #47 of 85
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So you guys are whining about climbing over a piece (the black alien) that is between the two middle zero friends in size?
WHIMPS!!!!
I've fallen on the green zero (aid piece) a lot. I'd fall on any zero except the purple one LOL.
But then I'll climb over #1 ball nuts and opposed aid nuts, so I'm not a very good role model.
And my guess is that if the piece will stay in the rock, your screamer might do you some good, but I'm thinking from what I've seen, that crappy rock or poor placements are why these pieces come out, and the screamer probably won't even activate in those circumstances. Now if yo uare talking about breaking the tiny cable on some small nut, then I think a screamer woudl really help.
Just a theory.
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davidji
Feb 25, 2004, 5:18 AM
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1. Any cam that small may be dicey, but why not get one rated to 10kn instead of 6kn for roughly the same size range, and save a little weight while I'm at it (for the Zero). Dunno how the Camalot compares.
2. I watched a partner (you might know him: Tom, climbs at Ironworks, big guy) bust an undercammed green Alien under bodyweight (at the time I think a little over 200 lbs). I like the two Aliens on my rack, and if they're clean and operating smoothly, the ones on partner's racks too, but I'm in no hurry to buy more. 'cept maybe hybrids...
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manacubus
Feb 25, 2004, 5:27 AM
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My buddy took the whip onto a black placed in super-hard rhyolite. Bugger all rope out as it was the first or second piece in the route, i.e. a jarring fall. The black held fine. If it didn't, he would of hit the deck.
That reminds me, does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers? I've certainly never seen this, except perhaps with preplaced gear on sketchy grit routes.
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crackboy
Feb 25, 2004, 6:44 AM
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i agree with melissa, just try not to fall on it. the hard part about using such a small cam with a small range is that the difference between a well place cam and an under/overcammed one is small thereby making what may seem like a good placement rubbish.
as far as screamers on trad climbs, i always bring one with me, unless i knew ahead of time that there was some manky pins i needed to clip such as on a bunch of routes at the gunks
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