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kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 4:54 PM
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Has anyone ever done this. I know they are stellar for aid, but if one is placed solidly, can it hold the average fall. I think they are good for 6 Kn but want to know what others think. It just has to be placed perfect for that kind of strength, and the range is so small.??
Stephen
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justin
Feb 24, 2004, 4:58 PM
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I was also wondering about this. A set of 8 Aliens is obviously cheaper than buying them individually but for trad: does one really need the smaller ones?
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factortwo
Feb 24, 2004, 5:04 PM
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I have mostly only used the black alien for aid climbing. I used it several times on trad free leads, but it has to be placed very carefully and I nearly crapped my pants climbing above it. My partner (125lb female) took a good sized fall on a well placed blue alien and the cams were deformed. It had to be sent back to CCH for repair but it held the fall real good.
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vulgarian
Feb 24, 2004, 5:08 PM
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I can't say for sure because I haven't taken a fall on a black alien. However, I have taken a good whipper on a #1 metolius and it held just fine. In fact I inspected it and fell again (bad day). The cam was worked and I sent it to Metolius for inspection and they let me replace it at their cost.
I guess the point is that anything has the potential to hold and anything has the potential to fail. There are just too many variables: placement, camming angle, rock surface quality, etc.
My advice: When in doubt, back it up and equalize.
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ilona
Feb 24, 2004, 5:31 PM
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A friend of mine: Super thin crack at Jtree, first and only piece a black alien about shin height. Foot popped off a thin smear. Alien held just fine.
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shakylegs
Feb 24, 2004, 5:38 PM
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A partner of a friend fell on the Black about 3 times, the fourth time it popped and he broke his back. He's better now.
The accident was rather fortuitous, since I got to use his Gunks' pass that week. Personally, I would try to back it up, if you have to use the Black.
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drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 5:51 PM
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The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period.
It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation.
Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.
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iamthewallress
Feb 24, 2004, 5:58 PM
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The strength rating is for the piece itself.
For the black alien I worry about the cams opening up more than the strength of the piece. If the black alien wobbles at all so that the cams open up, it is going to be outta there, so I don't typically carry one when free climbing unless I expect that there might be incredibly grim pitches with no other possible pro. Since I don't usually climb on those kinds of routes where I actually think falling on the bad pro might be possible, I rarely have the black alien along.
But...If it's perfectly placed and doesn't move it's pretty strong...assuming you are not 250 lbs and looking at taking a factor 1.8 fall on it.
I have fallen on the blue. It held, but upon closer inspection, I saw that it BARELY held. (Two of the lobes were out.) I've had yank-tested yellow and red aliens and that ripped out under the higher force of me falling on them when the placement flared. You can experiment with what the bigger ones will hold and then decide what seems reasonable for the black and blue.
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drkodos
Feb 24, 2004, 6:05 PM
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I just spoke to CCH.
According to their own preresentative (the owner), the black alien is not designed to be used as a free climbing piece, and states this on its tag.
This does not mean it will not hold a free climbing fall, only that it is not intended to do so.
The Blue Alien is the smallest Alien rated for free climbing falls.
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madmax
Feb 24, 2004, 6:12 PM
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Who cares what CCH says about the intended use of the black alien. I have fallen on a black alien at Ophir and it held. I wouldn't say it inspires comfidence, but when its all I got, you're damn sure I'm gonna place it.
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tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: The Black Alien is not for free climbing. Period. It is an aid piece. It is not rated to hold the force generated by a lead fall in a free climbing situation. Please check manufacturerer's rating strength.
Total B.S.
8.3KN mfg. rated strength. This is better than most biners open gate strength. Better than #4 and #5 BD stoppers(similar to the black alien in size)(Are they unacceptable for free climbing as well.)
That said; the piece may be good, the placement may not. The placement must be precise; not likely in rock that is not hard and smooth. They can be solid in good granite.
I think ricardol took a pretty good fall onto one during his solo of Zodiac (nipple pitch?).
Maybe not great but WAY better than nothing.
:wink: SCREAMER :wink:
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kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 6:24 PM
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Well said madmax
Stephen
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vulgarian
Feb 24, 2004, 6:28 PM
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I just looked at my Blue/Black hybrid alien. I probably wouldn't choose to set a black alien unless I was in a desperate situation and it was my only choice given a worst case scenario. For me, I like to climb hard but, I am rather conservative when placing pro; as wheel-chairs and being spoon fed strained peas has little appeal to me.
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crackboy
Feb 24, 2004, 6:51 PM
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i fell on a black alien at Jtree climbing buisaneer or however its spelled. it was the first piece i was able to get in and it kept me off of a nasty flake below the start.
granted it wasn't a fall on fall i was downclimbing it and slipped like 1.5 to feet abve the piece
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mark99
Feb 24, 2004, 6:56 PM
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I do not post many replies, as most of the time people here use there common sense, but this one, someome has thrown common sense out the window....
The product states it is for aiding. The manafactur states it is for aid. Store owners state it for aid.
I do not give a rats what the strengh rating on it is. It was design, built and made for aid use.
Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else..
So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
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angry
Feb 24, 2004, 6:57 PM
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As far as what you heard from CCH, they are a company, and companies have liability, they shouldn't have to be responsible for every gumby that places the piece wrong. What Dave tells you is what his lawyers tell you to say, on top of that, he probably doesn't like you. That's what makes him so cool.
I fell on my black alien, hard. I was on an easy route and really didn't think I'd fall, I slipped and whipped. It was the only piece between me and the ground. I fell probably 10 feet and the rock was questionable Navajo sandstone. I'm convinced.
If the placement is bomber, great, but a good stopper that size is a lot more secure if you know how to place it right. The only deformation of an alien I've had was on a green that I repeatedly fell on in granite. The black one probably didn't deform cause the rock was softer than the metal :shock:
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iamthewallress
Feb 24, 2004, 7:07 PM
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Question for you geniuses that refuse to place the Black Alien in lieu of NOTHING for pro when free climbing:
How many of you have ever fallen on NOTHING and had it hold?
When you venture away from the sport crags, you don't always get 3 evenly spaced, equalized pieces at your anchor, and you can't always protect the crux with a number one camalot either. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that you may have to deviate from the text book or manufacturer recommendations, take real risks, and rely on your ability to climb through a poor pro section without falling as your #1 parachute, then you should stick to routes whose protection scheme you can clearly see from the ground.
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btreanor
Feb 24, 2004, 7:16 PM
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The black alien is "only for aid." What does this mean, that no one falls while aiding? Of course if the choice is between a black alien and a #8 stopper or a #2 Camalot, you leave the alien on the rack. But, seriously, if the choice is between no pro and less-than-ideal pro, just place the alien. I've been caught (on free climbing falls) on teeny-tiny HB offsets and RPs. Maybe being caught is always better than decking for sure...
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tedc
Feb 24, 2004, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: I do not post many replies, as most of the time people here use there common sense, but this one, someome has thrown common sense out the window.... The product states it is for aiding. The manafactur states it is for aid. Store owners state it for aid. I do not give a rats what the strengh rating on it is. It was design, built and made for aid use. Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah... What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall? It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else.. So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
mark99,
Just to emphasize my point BS,BS,BS :x
How does "common sense" have anything to do with the liability issues surrounding whether a munufacturer "states" that a piece is for "aid only"? What does aid only mean?
I state that it is just another piece of gear to be used at the climbers discression. If the climber looks to other climbers for advice to bolster that discression, more power to them.
So you care what the manufacturer states that the piece is supposed to be used for but don't "give a rats ass" how strong they say it is??? :?
People place crappy gear all the time. Doesn't matter what its "stated use" is. How people use thier gear is NEVER my responsibility, it's thiers. Anyone who makes protection descisions based on what they read on the rc.com probably won't last too long anyway.
So is the black alien (A) made any differently than the blue alien which "they" say is OK for Trad? Or (B) is it just a bit smaller and less strong? (B is the correct answer here).
Good placements have NOTHING to do with luck. You had better KNOW what you are doing; especially if you are climbing above a black alien.
mark99, you seem to be a victim of the modern tendancy to let others (lawyers in this case) make your descisions for you. It is all just information. Take it in and make your own descision, and take responsibility for it.
Sorry, I hope this doesn't keep you from posting again but I think the most dangerous thing a climber can do is to let someone else "think" for them.
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atg200
Feb 24, 2004, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
you just lost your bet. the folks climbing routes that require pieces like a black alien know well that it might blow.
In reply to: What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself?
that would be tragic.
In reply to: are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
oh please. mind numbingly stupid leap of logic aside, each and every climber assumes responsibility for their own gear. i'd rather fall on a black alien that i place than a #2 camalot that the guy in the cubicle next to mine placed. if you are such a sheep that you blindly follow advice on the internet without thinking it through, i suggest a different sport - perhaps bowling or lawn darts.
In reply to: It is pretty simple. The company builds gear for a task for it to be used in. Any other use and you are trusting luck and nothing else..
how long have you been climbing anyway? a year? mostly in the gym? do you know what a grigri is? did you know that in addition to being an ok belay device, it is a fantastic ascender for cleaning aid pitches, and not a bad soloing device either. petzl doesn't recommend either of those, but hundreds of people are out using the grigri every day for those tasks with great success.
In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side....
luck is good. on the other hand, so is good judgement and experience. i'll take that over spewing about manufacturer recommendations any day.
In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use.
and the piece de resistance in the gumby safety lecture. do you even know what a black alien is? you might have a really hard time fiddling a hex into that thin shallow seam the black alien works well for. the only other piece that really takes the place of a black alien is a bolt, or one of the wild country micros that are weaker than the black aliens.
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kansasclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Well, it looks like i shouldnt use it then, that sucks! I dont aid climb and i still bought the thing!
Stephen
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crakhed
Feb 24, 2004, 7:58 PM
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Word up Andrew!!!!
A black alien beats no alien!!!
As far as reccomended use as stated by manufacturer, who cares what the KN rating is when you have 120 ft. of rope out and you are faced with a 20 foot runout (because you could use the black alien in a nice seam, but the tag emphatically states NOT FOR FREE CLIMBING), or you could think for yourself, and place the alien in blatent disregard for the manufacture's warnings(being the radical rebel you are). If you are wondering about the security of a black alien, you should not be on a climb where one is needed.
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davidji
Feb 24, 2004, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
BTW I don't own a black Alien, and rarely carry one freeclimbing, but I have been thankful to have it when nothing else (on the rack) would fit.
The cam choices around that size include the smaller #3 WC Zero, which I think is rated to 10kN, and the slightly larger .1 Microcamalot (don't know the strength).
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thedesertnomad
Feb 24, 2004, 8:08 PM
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Like many here seem to agree on... better than nothing. The thread simply asks "falling on a black alien", lol To finish that in my opinion is simple, "it can work, and really really suck" I have done it twice, once it held, the other time it did not. The time that it did NOT, sucked because it smacked me square in the forehead and caused me to fall an additional 20 feet or so. The time that it DID hold sucked because I wasn't too high above it, but run waaaaaay out on the piece below it and I wasn't sure that it was going to hold. On both occasions it was that or nothing. (well I suppose I could have cam'd a small ledge hook in the seam, but I wasn't going THERE)
Moral of the story is I wouldn't reccomend it, but it beats a sure-fire decking experience
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crotch
Feb 24, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Noone's said it yet, so I will. Put a Screamer on that thing!
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