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jt512
Aug 25, 2004, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Most 5.7 routes don't require the technique(s) needed climb 5.10. To climb the typical 5.7 gym route. You face the wall 90% of the time and climb it like you're climbing a ladder. Try doing that on 5.10. Unless you're quite strong, you'll find that you need an entirely different set of techniques to climb the route at all, much less, to climb it efficiently. -Jay Exactly. Kinda tough to work technique if you can barely hang on. My point is this. I'm sure you've taken out brand new climbers. Some of them just get body position - leaning this way stabilizes in that direction, this foot positioned just so gets me to the next hold, etc - and some don't - they always looks desperate and unsure. So you try and teach the "donts" those thousands (or at least a few :) ) of engrams of movement that you've developed over the years. They're not all necessary to the climb at hand but they will prove useful in the future.
Those newbies you are referring to who have to work on basic, basic technique at the 5.7 level aren't TRing 5.10-. Look at the original post. The original poster is.
In reply to: There is value in practice is there not?
Yes, but that's not the issue at all. The question is how much "technique" is a 5.10- toproper going to learn on 5.7 gym climbs?
-Jay
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bandycoot
Aug 25, 2004, 4:53 PM
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I want to be consistent low 5.11 trad leader by next summer. I am working on cardio 2-3 times a week, I'm going to start some weight lifting, and I gym climb twice a week. Each weekend I spend on the real thing.
Josh
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robmcc
Aug 25, 2004, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you do to need technique on a 5.7 climb. You need technique to climb anything, otherwise you wouldt get off the ground. You need about as much technique to climb a 5.7 gym route as you need to climb a ladder. -Jay
Whatever. There are two cracks in the gym I frequent. One's 5.6, the other's about 5.7. Few people climb them. A good number of those who do climb them look ridiculous because they know ZERO crack climbing technique.
Yes, I said technique.
There are certainly easy climbs in the gym where it's a pure grab and pull, but for quite a few, there are specific bits of helpful knowledge. Down here we call those...technique. Even if we don't climb as hard as you.
Rob
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jt512
Aug 25, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you do to need technique on a 5.7 climb. You need technique to climb anything, otherwise you wouldt get off the ground. You need about as much technique to climb a 5.7 gym route as you need to climb a ladder. -Jay Whatever. There are two cracks in the gym I frequent. One's 5.6, the other's about 5.7. Few people climb them. A good number of those who do climb them look ridiculous because they know ZERO crack climbing technique. Yes, I said technique.
I agree with you that 5.7 cracks require technique. I doubt that the climber who started this thread was talking about 5.7 gym cracks, but I'm sure he'll correct me if my assumption was wrong.
In reply to: There are certainly easy climbs in the gym where it's a pure grab and pull, but for quite a few, there are specific bits of helpful knowledge. Down here we call those...technique. Even if we don't climb as hard as you. Rob
It has nothing to do with how hard I climb. It has everything to do with how hard the original poster climbs. My point to him is that if he's TRing 5.10-, he's wasting his time practicing 5.7 "technique." Is that so hard to understand?
-Jay
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changling
Aug 25, 2004, 5:52 PM
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To climb remote alpine routes without previous knowledge of route other than what I can figure out on my own.
What I do to acheive that goal is saving up money so that I can buy the gear I need and plane tickets so that I can actually go to the mountains and get the experience I need. Other than that, climb and hike whenever I can (the longer the routes and the more days out the better), and spend as much time out in the cold as I can handle.
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andy_reagan
Aug 25, 2004, 5:59 PM
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I want to boulder harder.
I boulder, sport climb, lift weights, and run to achieve a higher bouldering level.
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brianc
Aug 25, 2004, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: My point to him is that if he's TRing 5.10-, he's wasting time practicing 5.7 "technique." Is that so hard to understand?
We should also differentiate between "5.7 technique" and "good technique used on a 5.7."
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jt512
Aug 25, 2004, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My point to him is that if he's TRing 5.10-, he's wasting time practicing 5.7 "technique." Is that so hard to understand? No, but it seems to suggest that good [or a particular] technique is somehow tied to grade.
It goes without saying that technique is tied to grade. One reason that routes differ in difficulty is that they differ in their technical demands. 5.7s aren't very technical by the very definition of 5.7.
-Jay
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g
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Aug 25, 2004, 6:21 PM
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I guess I want to go do Split Pillar at some point. I've been thinking about getting up to BC for about two years though, so I don't think I'd call it a pressing goal. I don't really consider myself to be very goal oriented.
People train for this stuff?
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tim
Aug 25, 2004, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: I disagree with you: most people can walk up and on-sight 5.7 in the gym. For that matter, most people who would attempt it in the first place can TR 5.7 "on sight" their first day. Maybe not at the Gunks.
I'd go even further -- I onsighted 5.7 on TR at the Gunks my first day of 'real' climbing. It is very much within the abilities of a fit layperson. Be honest people -- if you climbed a 5.7 a thousand times, how many times would you fall? I have been 3rd and 4th-classing a lot of pitches at that level lately, not because I necessarily want to, but simply because I seem to pick weekends featuring storm clouds, and I'm a lot more scared of being struck by lightning than I am of falling on a 5.7 or 5.8 pitch(es). If I can climb something in my approach shoes, it doesn't require technique. Ask anyone I climb with: I have no technique whatsoever.
Not trying to be mean or elitist, just agreeing with Jay. At least in the gym, I never felt that there was any technique required on climbs easier than 5.10. Either you can haul yourself up, or you can't. Once I got on 10's and 11's, I started having to hang from straight arms, match on holds, drop-knee, and flag. If you're having trouble below that level, I suggest you run or swim more, to increase your strength-to-weight ratio.
But, YMMV, and if you listen to some moron on the Intarweb (eg. me) you are taking your chances. Best to find someone agreeable at your gym whose skills you'd like to emulate, and ask them how they got strong.
As for my personal goals, for this fall I'd like to get up Half Dome in a day, and my eventual goal is to stand on top of Cerro Torre, then make it back down alive. Needless to say, that's still a few years away; I'm told that once you're comfortable getting up the NIAD, *then* you go after it.
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rcaret
Aug 25, 2004, 6:49 PM
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To do my 2nd aid solo before the year is out .
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cliffmonkey2003
Aug 25, 2004, 8:40 PM
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This is a pretty general goal, but being a beginner, one should keep his/her horizons open. I want to climb where noone has ever climbed before.
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brianc
Aug 25, 2004, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: It goes without saying that technique is tied to grade. One reason that routes differ in difficulty is that they differ in their technical demands. 5.7s aren't very technical by the very definition of 5.7.
Technique is about efficiency - efficiency of strength, efficiency of movement. If we posit that 5.10 requires technique (as many hear would and have argued) then no one unschooled in technique ought to be able to climb 5.10. Yet it routinely happens as many have the strength to overcome lack of technique. To use the previous example of being able to climb 5.7 their first day (which I'll agree is not at all uncommon) does not mean that you weren't absolutely torqued when you were done. Controlling all other factors (general conditioning, not overgripping b/c you're sure death is imminent) the reason 5.7 is now a breeze for you is b/c of, wait for it, technique. It's not all drop knees and figure-4s. There are lots of little things that you're doing all the time to ensure that when you finish a pitch of 5.7 you're fresh as a daisy. B/c you're gonna need it on that next tough pitch.
And to get back to the point, I never stated that 5.7 required any substantial technique - only that working technique, be it drop-knees or simply not overgripping, is not a waste of time on a 5.7. It's not the most efficient use of time, but it's not a waste.
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pjcozzi
Aug 25, 2004, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I’ve been going to the gym 2-3 times a week trying to push my limit (5.10-) and also focusing on technique on easier climbs (5.7ish). I try to lead trad once or twice a month. Pat. One problem with this approach is that you don't need technique on 5.7 climbs. -Jay
I guess I should have been more specific. When I’m on an easier route (say gym 5.7), I find it easier to focus on things like staying over my feet, keeping my arms straight and using the least amount of energy to make a move. This helps me build good habits for harder routes and also provides a break between harder routes.
Pat.
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asandh
Aug 25, 2004, 11:02 PM
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:)
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elvislegs
Aug 25, 2004, 11:24 PM
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i'd like to be strong enough by late oktober to knock down a bunch of .10 and .11 splitterz in indian creek.
it will be my first time there, i want to make it worth-while.
in order to achieve this, i have been toproping lots of easy face climbs.
from what i'm told that's the main thing down in moab.
besides i also hear that i'll need that 5.7 technique on those hard elevens... and maybe a ladder.
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organic
Aug 26, 2004, 2:11 AM
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Aghhh! Thread hijack, not many climbers out there that train for their goals?
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jt512
Aug 26, 2004, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: For example a 5.10 climber can and should practice any number of new movement skills on 5.7 - 5.8 climbs. A level at which the climbing is easy enough to allow them to focus on their movement without the difficulty of the climb interfeering with their motor processing. If a 5.10 climber is learning to flag, or dyno, or change the speed of their movement or if they are training endurance, etc 5.7 - 5.8 is a good place to do that. Go ahead and do your movement exercises on 5.7s but realize that within a short amount of concentrated practice you will be able to / need to do it on 5.8, then on 5.9 and so on.
Fluxus, the first two times, you write "5.7 - 5.8," rather than just "5.7." And then you say, if you start on 5.7, realize that you're going to have get into the 5.8 - 5.9 range real soon. Had the original poster stated he was practicing technique on 5.8, I would never have written anything. I think we're saying almost the same thing: that for someone who can climb 10-, 5.7 is a kinda easy, and he's going to need to up the ante a little.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 26, 2004, 3:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It goes without saying that technique is tied to grade. One reason that routes differ in difficulty is that they differ in their technical demands. 5.7s aren't very technical by the very definition of 5.7. I disagree. Grade is used to compare climbs against one another.
Grades attempt to rate the difficulty of the climb. Period. One of the ways that climbs differ in difficulty is by technical difficulty. Show my a 5.7 that requires a drop knee, a deadpoint, or dyno. Show me a gym 5.7 that requires delicate footwork, or even good balance.
In reply to: If technique were in fact tied to grade and 5.7 requires no technique, then there ought not to be any climbs rated below 5.7.
The scale is out-of-date. It was invented when people were climbing in leather-soled boots. 5.anything was hard, and 5.10 was unimaginable.
In reply to: ...the reason 5.7 is now a breeze for you is b/c of, wait for it, technique. It's not all drop knees and figure-4s. There are lots of little things that you're doing all the time to ensure that when you finish a pitch of 5.7 you're fresh as a daisy. B/c you're gonna need it on that next tough pitch.
Your defense of 5.7 is laughable. 5.7 gym routes are walk-ups.
In reply to: And to get back to the point, I never stated that 5.7 required any substantial technique - only that working technique, be it drop-knees or simply not overgripping, is not a waste of time on a 5.7. It's not the most efficient use of time, but it's not a waste.
At any gym I've been to, if you tried to do a drop knee on a 5.7, you'd just skin your knee on a jug.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 26, 2004, 3:40 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: You need about as much technique to climb a 5.7 gym route as you need to climb a ladder. Jay, you sucked a lot of life out of this thread with this silly quote. For someone who has never climbed a ladder, it can be quite a challenge, or have you never been there ? Everyone starts at the bottom some place, its a relative thing .... For a 2 year old, just walking takes technique ....
The comment was directed to a 5.10 climber, not a rank beginner. Am I the only one who can read?
-Jay
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asandh
Aug 26, 2004, 3:51 PM
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:)
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wetyeti
Aug 26, 2004, 4:30 PM
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to climb real rock as much as i talk, spray post and jerk off about it.
for my workout i tend to down a few pints of stout, fantasize about finger cracks and complain that i am just not strong enough to climb yet smart enough to whine
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jt512
Aug 26, 2004, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: The comment was directed to a 5.10 climber, not a rank beginner. Am I the only one who can read? My comment is still relevant, its all in the attitude Jay ....
I'm sure that the semi-literate, the defensive, and the insecure humorless literalists are proud to have you as their defender.
-Jay
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climb_plastic
Aug 26, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: you do to need technique on a 5.7 climb. You need technique to climb anything, otherwise you wouldt get off the ground. You need about as much technique to climb a 5.7 gym route as you need to climb a ladder. -Jay
Anything 5.10 or lower in the gym are warm-ups...
Now that's elitist! :wink:
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overlord
Aug 26, 2004, 4:57 PM
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wow, look at the flame war about the herb that supposed to relax :shock: :shock: :shock:
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