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f_thomas
Oct 7, 2004, 6:21 AM
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In reply to: Jeff Stockton replies to these comments via email... http://le-mank.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=23
In my humble opinion, Mr. Stockton covers a number of shortcomings in today's climbing community. There does seem to be a lack of commitment today to making a differance and paying forward, if you will, to augment and improve upon the sacrafices of those that have gone before us.
Here is a hasty generalization: It seems to me that many people today are reluctant to take responsibility for their own actions and ultimate welfare and quickly cry fowl when no one arrives to bail them out.
Get the necessary first aid training to make you an asset in an accident scenario and not just a bystander or worse - an impediment to getting the situation under control and the vicitm stabilized and transported to a trauma center equiped to handle the full extent of the injuries suffered by the victim. It can make a differance between saving a life and reading an obituary.
Get well soon young lady!
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trenchdigger
Oct 7, 2004, 4:06 PM
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My original comment still stands...
In reply to: In reply to: I realize that Jeff Stockton was well meaning but....... The climber/victim was a female, with a boyfriend/belayer of questionable experience, skill and intelligence. He really needs to refrain from this sort of thing. The boyfreind was just trying to do as he thought best and right or wrong, he doesn't need that sort of sh*t!! Agreed. And he does nothing to, as he claims, "explain" the accident nor tell why it should have been avoided. Not really what I'd expect from a president of a climbing association. ~Adam~
Again, the boyfriend may well have been of "questionable experience, skill, and intelligence" but with no first hand explanation (as Mr. Stockton originally claimed was in the original e-mail) or post-accident analysis of the accident, we simply don't know what caused the accident nor how it can be prevented. Because of that, it's also not right to accuse the "boyfriend" of being of "questionable experience, skill, and intelligence." His numerous assumptions and rumors about the situation whittle away repeatedly at his credibility.
Mr. Stockton:
If you truly want to help your community by explaining how and why this happened and how it can be prevented, I would encourage you to investigate the event thoroughly and with no prior assumptions and write up a fact-based report rather than an editorial based on rumors.
~Adam~
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ericulner
Oct 7, 2004, 5:05 PM
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Not that I really have much time to join in this discussion, but it seems that with all the bantering and spraying about Jeff's comments, maybe I should.
First an update on the girl's condition. I spoke with Shawnee Forest Officials this morning. They'd just received a fax from Air-Evac helicopter service following up on the incident. They flew the 19-year-old injured girl to St. Francis Medical Center in Cape Girardeau, MO, where she received Emergency Dept. treatment. Then they flew her to a hospital (unidentified) in St. Louis for ortho care. She had tib-fib fx's and multiple pelvic fx's. No comments were given about the hematoma on her head, although they noted that she was A&Ox3 throughout both flights. Her condition is reported to be stable and improving.
I'd like to comment about the idea of moving the limb of an open & angulated fx into a neutral position. First though, let me say that the guy who witnessed the "boyfriend" do this to the patient's leg is my climbing partner (ie- not 5th hand information). The "boyfriend" grabbed it and moved it, period. That in itself is not a very bright thing to do, regardless of one's stress level, etc. A bone shard can comromise a blood vessel. That's a calculated risk that should be done with calculation. First though, I would palpate for a distal pulse. If there's one there, the only reason that I would go ahead and move the limb to a more neutral position would be to facilitate patient packaging and transport. If a distal pulse was present, but then it was determined that moving the limb is absolutely necessary for patient packaging, I would have waited to do so until it was time to do it. That would have hedged the patient's bets on time, in case of vascular compromise. Moving the limb and then waiting another hour for EMS to arrive was not ideal.
When actually moving the limb into neutral, great care should be made to feel for crepitus and any other resistance. Pain should also be a guide. And of course, a check for distal pulse should be made after moving the limb. Marking it with an ink pen doesn't hurt either, for easier subsequent checks. The key to doing all of this, of course, is having training. If you like rock climbing, you'll likely be doing it for many years, as it does tend to be a life-sport for people. Given that, and the fact that you're going to willingly invest a several grand over the years in time, equipment, travel, etc. to be a climber, why not go ahead and also make an investment in some formal emergency medical training? Climbers really ought to consider this investment as important as buying ropes, harnesses, etc. Odds are, if you continue to be a climber, with time, you'll be around or in an injury of some sort.
Re various negative comments toward Jeff- I think he was calling like he saw it. Calling him an asshole for this seems a little out of hand. Last I checked, Jeff wasn't required to check his opinions at the door when he assumed the thankless, non-payed position of ICA president. And, questioning his worthiness as a climbing partner is completely off point.
Jeff's issue wasn't with HOW the accident was caused, but WHAT WAS DONE TO THE PATIENT post-trauma.
Re the comments/questions about the Illinois Climbers Association- Patience rock-hopper, a web site is in the works. As far as any local climbing organization goes, typically, the only reason climbers want/need to get together as an organization is either a cool good-will project or an access crisis. In Southern Illinois, the 5 main climbing areas have some differences in management, which affects how ICA is involved. By the way, I think it was 2002 when ICA officially incorporated non-profit in IL. Regarding the 5 areas, there really is no access crisis. At Jackson Falls, we await the Forest Service's final decision to handed down regarding the canyon trails, with respect to foot traffic and equestrian use. Until that happens, climbers cannot collectively do any trail work, despite the face that it's desparately needed. A clean-up day could take place. Three people with a garbage bag each could clean the entire area in about 2 hours. At Cedar Bluff, 65 climbers restored the trail in 1999 under the direction of trail guru, Jim Angell. In 2001, 25 climbers did a trail touch-up day at Cedar. At Ferne Clyffe and Giant City State Parks, there's not much to do, as the state parks maintain the areas. At Draper's Bluff, I own the climbing area, so I take of things myself.
All in all, relationships are in pretty good shape with the various land managers at So. IL climbing areas. This is directly due to continuous contact between land managers and ICA and Access Fund representatives "walking the point". Yes, we do represent every other climber's interests to the best of our abilities with our limited time resources. You're welcome.
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crimpandgo
Oct 7, 2004, 5:17 PM
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Quote:
Re various negative comments toward Jeff- I think he was calling like he saw it. Calling him an asshole for this seems a little out of hand. Last I checked, Jeff wasn't required to check his opinions at the door when he assumed the thankless, non-payed position of ICA president. And, questioning his worthiness as a climbing partner is completely off point.
Response:
First off, ericulner, Thanks for the update. This post started out about the girl. Its good to see it come full circle back to how she is. Thanks also for a "kind" way of letting us know how to learn from this situation.
regarding the comments above, you are correct. He does not have to check his opinions at the door. But he should also understand, that if he is going to be so critical of a fellow person, he should be more prepared to accept harsh opinions in response. The hair on the back of my neck stood up when I read his report as well. Even though I agree, the boyfriend acted impulsively, the simple fact remains Jeff wrote VERY critical comments about someone that seemed to be trying to help someone out (albiet his help was misguided). his response is the very reason many people choose not to get involved when situation like this arise. they are afraid of being criticized or even worse sued when something goes wrong. Even if you have proper training things might go wrong.
So, In my opinion, a more compassion and a little less criticism on both sides will go a long way to allowing each of to learn from this situation.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 7, 2004, 5:31 PM
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All you paramedic typs get a pretty jaded view on humanity. It is natural for experts to scoff at the average joe for not performing at an expert level when out of their element. You should keep you sarcasm down to a dull roar though. The guy is in the middle of a traumatic situation involveing a loved one. How many of you experts have ever worked on a loved one in a life threatening situation? the guy did the best that he could with his experience level in a totaly screwed up situation. the experts would be well advised to find a way to explaine/teach the better way of dealing with the victim with out demeaning the good samaritin. Otherwise you just come off as expert a$$holes.
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ericulner
Oct 7, 2004, 5:53 PM
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I re-read my post. I don't believe I was being sarcastic, nor was I scoffing at anything. Just offering advice and an update. Take it or leave it. See ya.
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old_apple_juice
Oct 7, 2004, 6:19 PM
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Clip in when you're topping out. :D
Don't mess with people if they're really busted up (unless you're a paramedic with a backboard on hand, etc. etc.) :(
To the people who helped out with the rescue, you're great. 8^)
This circular bantering seems to miss the point, for goodness sake, a young lady got really messed up, let's be pleasant and respectful
Andrew
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treehugger
Oct 7, 2004, 6:58 PM
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In reply to: the guy did the best that he could with his experience level in a totally screwed up situation. the experts would be well advised to find a way to explaine/teach the better way of dealing with the victim with out demeaning the good samaritin.
Except in this case the good Samaritan was the bystander with EMS experience who was attempting to examine the victim. It wasn't as though they were alone, miles from any other person.
Whatever about Jeff Stockton's comments and personal viewpoint. He is entitled, as are the rest of us, to bitch. What I thought was valid criticism, however, was the lack of an official description of the accident, and no beginning of a discussion of what went wrong. It is these types of discussions that are the most valuable to the community at large. Since the negative description of the boyfriend came from some sort of "official" report, I'm assuming there was an accident description as well.
One thing I would stress: ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK YOUR PARTNER. This includes when they are cleaning anchors on single pitch sport climbs. Verbal checks are valuable, and should be part of your routine, ESPECIALLY when working with an inexperienced partner.
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jds100
Oct 7, 2004, 11:13 PM
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Wrong action well intended is still wrong action. One of the wrong actions taken in this case was to be unprepared for serious consequences of climbing in a remote location; obviously another was to exacerbate the risk by stepping into a medical emergency with no apparent thought, again, for the consequences. Would you still be singing the guy's praises if his actions had killed her right there? How 'bout if he'd severed an artery, and she'd required a tourniquet, and ended up losing the leg? You people think everything's alright, as long as there are no consequences, 'cuz, "golly gee, he meant well."
Doing In reply to: "the best he could with his experience level" In reply to: "teach[ing] the better way to deal with the victim"
"Official report"?!? What "official report"? Did I say I was there? Did I represent anything other than that I was sharing information that was passed on to me? One of the first orders of business was to quell the usual rumor machine that people like to start up, and that usually increases any access threat that may be extant in the area of the accident. Why don't you give me an idea of where you might find an "official description" of the accident? Even reports in magazines and yearly compilations are more often than not based on a gathering of bits of information over time, from multiple sources. If you're not bright enough to realize that you're reading exactly what I said you're reading -a "first blush" commentary- then get your parent's money back that they wasted on your education.
In reply to: "All you paramedic types..." In reply to: "How many of you experts have ever worked on a loved one in a life threatening situation?"
And, as for my "harsh opinions" that were "VERY critical" that I expressed in the original email that Andy Lemon linked to this thread? If "questionable intelligence" qualifies as "harsh" and "VERY critical", I strongly suggest that you never set foot outside your door, don't watch television, don't listen to the radio, don't read books or magazines, don't talk to other real people (those special friends inside your head are OK), and keep pretending that Dorothy really came back to Kansas from Oz, because you must be too delicate a special flower for the real world.
In reply to: Even if you have proper training things might go wrong.
In reply to: What I thought was valid criticism, however, was the lack of an official description of the accident, and no beginning of a discussion of what went wrong. It is these types of discussions that are the most valuable to the community at large. Since the negative description of the boyfriend came from some sort of "official" report, I'm assuming there was an accident description as well. |
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drector
Oct 7, 2004, 11:51 PM
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Having been at the scene of an accident where a loved-one was hurt, I can honestly say that unless someone has special training for the accident, they will not do the right thing except by accident or by default (happens if they are too scared to do something or can't think of anything to do).
I also know well that there is no way to prepare for every accident that can happen so there will always be some boyfriend having his intelligence questioned. Most people do not have the inclination to take WFR training or EMT training or any other special training even if they are involved in possibly dangerous activities. Does the soccer mom worry that her child might get a severe fracture at the soccer game and that the coach has never had training so she gets the proper training to deal with ALL accidents that happen at soccer games including lightning stikes? No. She's hopes for the best like most weekend-warrior rock climbers do.
BYW, it my sister who broke her back water-skiing. Who'd have though it was possible. Yes, we did actually get her out of the water onto the step on the back of the boat which was an action that could have killed or paralized her. Her extreme agony made it hard to just leave her in the water for the 1/2 hour that it took for the paramedics to arrive.
I hope the girl makes a full recovery.
Dave
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 8, 2004, 12:18 AM
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JDS100 you really are comming off as a beligerant a- hole. especially the comment about good luck getting a paramedic to work on you :roll: I have a ton of experience hanging out with paramedics and know quite well how the Black humor and elitist attitude is both partialy justified and common. the key is that the good ones don't ever let the patient OR any of the paitients dependants, friends family etc. know that they are loading their loved one in the meat wagon. I have known a few verry technicly talented patrolers that gave their supervisors a BIG headache because all the victims and and all their friends were morons that shouldn't be out on the hill in the first place. these guys are tough guys with a lot of skill but no tolerence or compassion for all the so called stupid people in the world. It is fine for you to call the guy an idiot in the locker room with the other guys/gals involved in the rescue. It is pretty poor form to ridicule him in a public forrum that he or the victim or members of the family may come in contact with. The guy just wittness his girlfriend deck in front of him. You could get the point accross without calling the guy names.
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organic
Oct 8, 2004, 12:27 AM
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Who cares leave Jeff alone. Why does everyone all of the sudden care so much about the boyfriend? Did you ever think the boyfriend might have been of very limited climbing experience and was teaching his girlfriend to climb or clean and this may have been what caused the accident? Maybe it was freak, maybe he was stressed but the point is listen to what Jeff is saying, don't be stupid and take people out when you yourself barely know what you are doing and get some first aid experience. J-Falls is a great place, let's keep it safe. Also thanks to Eric and Jeff for what you guys do. I was thinking about the idea of a clean-up day at J-Falls not only of trash but also of moss haha, so many sweet boulders so few clean.
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ericulner
Oct 8, 2004, 12:35 AM
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To expand on the "official report" of what led up to the girl falling-
Per her belayer, she fell from the top anchor.
By the time others arrived, her belayer had removed her harness.
The entire rope was laying on the ground.
No quickdraws were hanging on the sport route, so she had evidently top-roped the route.
Many unknowns.
Belayer didn't readily provide much info, other than that she had fallen from the top anchor.
Speculation:
Perhaps she blew the cleaning-changeover from TR quickdraws to chains.
Perhaps she rigged for lower, and her belayer had already taken her off belay, thinking she was going to rap.
Perhaps she didn't properly tie-in and simply became disconnected from the rope when she leaned back for lower.
Perhaps she only connected one strand for a double rope rappel.
This info comes from my climbing partner, who was on the scene.
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panamared
Oct 8, 2004, 4:03 AM
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Ok, this is getting a bit out of hand. Thanks for the update Eric, it's good to know she's gonna be alright. I hope she has a full recovery.
If a mod can close the thread, I really don't think anything constructive is going to come of this.
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andy_lemon
Oct 8, 2004, 4:48 AM
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The funny thing is, everybody responding negatively to Jeff's post doesn't climb in SoIll or they live outside the area (way outside the area). I think it is custom in our community when you hear a climber call another climber a douch bag, and the person speaking has been in the climbing community as long as Jeff, you tend to listen.
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mingleefu
Oct 8, 2004, 4:51 AM
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Please don't close the thread. If you don't want to read it, you don't need to. But there are many updates to be had here, and I would like to be able to read them and/or post them as they come around.
Thanks.
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panamared
Oct 8, 2004, 5:27 AM
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I'd like to hear updates too, but this thread has been hijacked to hell. If the bickering stops, then I agree, don't close the thread. If not, close it and whoever gets the info should start a new one.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 8, 2004, 7:20 AM
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So andy? your telling us that jeff has some kind of Illinois licence to call victims and their companions Douch bags? Maby that derogitory article in climbing mag that you all cried about did have some merit after all :roll:
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paynec
Oct 8, 2004, 11:10 AM
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look some of us just wanna know if the girl is ok. The fact that some of you are writing 3 or 4 paragraphs on a totally different subject is just retarded.
If youve never been placed in a stressful situation then you have no right to judge how someone should act. We are all human, we make mistakes.
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tgmd
Oct 8, 2004, 3:44 PM
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Hello, all. I'm new to the forum. My son loves climbing and is exploring Utah now. He told me about this case since I am an emergency physician in the St. Louis area. I was not involved in the care of this patient and only heard about it through my son. I wanted to throw in my two cents about the care of trauma patients in the field. First, if you are going to climb in remote areas, which is usually the case, I recommend you get at least some basic training in field care of injured patients. This will serve you and your friends. Secondly, if you are not specifically trained, it is best to splint a fracture "as is". One exception is if you are absolutely sure that there is no pulse or blood flow to the extremity and by reducing the fracture you can re-establish blood flow. Also, if you had to move the patient any great distance by yourselves, it might help to reduce the fracture in preparation for transport. Keep in mind that the fracture still must be immobilized either way. It is true that reducing a fracture by applying traction will reduce pain and blood loss, but maintaining traction of a fractured extremity in the field without specialized equipment is very difficult. That's where the field training comes in. Don't beat up on the poor guy. He panicked. He probably didn't do any harm. Bottom line: check your safety gear twice, get trained, and don't fall!
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robmcc
Oct 8, 2004, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: Don't beat up on the poor guy. He panicked.
I disagree on that count. Once the accident is in progress, it's too late to get training and whoever is on hand is what you have to work with.
The one thing you can control is your own emotional reaction. Don't panic! You'll be anywhere from less effective to useless if you do. So, sorry, the guy gets points off if he paniced.
Rob
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andy_lemon
Oct 8, 2004, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: So andy? your telling us that jeff has some kind of Illinois licence to call victims and their companions Douch bags?
1) I don't know how you came to that make believe summary of what I wrote.
2) I don't recall Jeff calling the victim anything.
3) From my understanding of the boyfriend (companion) he is a complete moron, regardless of any medical procedures he tried to use, moron is his standard...
4) You yourself sir, seem to be hanging around just for the joy of argument, not for the education purposes of such a situation. And for that your mouth spews a filth so rank of your own theories and a perfect world, but...
In reply to: Maby that derogitory article in climbing mag that you all cried about did have some merit after all
it sure is purdy, boy.
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treehugger
Oct 8, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: "Official report"?!? What "official report"?
In reply to: My characterization of the boyfriend was from a direct "report" from a trained emergency aid provider on scene.
jds: My apologies; I misread your comment to mean an accident report filed by someone responding to the situation in a professional capacity.
In reply to: If you're not bright enough to realize that you're reading exactly what I said you're reading -a "first blush" commentary- then get your parent's money back that they wasted on your education.
Yeah, I'll get on that. Particularly since it was my own money, and I could really use some of it at the moment. Speaking of being offended, your stress level might benefit if you backed off on the defensive posture a bit.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 8, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: The funny thing is, everybody responding negatively to Jeff's post doesn't climb in SoIll or they live outside the area (way outside the area). I think it is custom in our community when you hear a climber call another climber a douch bag, and the person speaking has been in the climbing community as long as Jeff, you tend to listen. |
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matixa
Oct 8, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: Hello, all. I'm new to the forum. My son loves climbing and is exploring Utah now. He told me about this case since I am an emergency physician in the St. Louis area. I was not involved in the care of this patient and only heard about it through my son. I wanted to throw in my two cents about the care of trauma patients in the field. First, if you are going to climb in remote areas, which is usually the case, I recommend you get at least some basic training in field care of injured patients. This will serve you and your friends. Secondly, if you are not specifically trained, it is best to splint a fracture "as is". One exception is if you are absolutely sure that there is no pulse or blood flow to the extremity and by reducing the fracture you can re-establish blood flow. Also, if you had to move the patient any great distance by yourselves, it might help to reduce the fracture in preparation for transport. Keep in mind that the fracture still must be immobilized either way. It is true that reducing a fracture by applying traction will reduce pain and blood loss, but maintaining traction of a fractured extremity in the field without specialized equipment is very difficult. That's where the field training comes in. Don't beat up on the poor guy. He panicked. He probably didn't do any harm. Bottom line: check your safety gear twice, get trained, and don't fall!
tgmd-thanks for taking the time to give us useful info.
To all others who feel the need to malign this kid-This thread is beginning to take the tone of another that I believe got locked (Longs Peak).
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