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cracklover
Oct 8, 2004, 6:25 PM
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First off, I'm very sorry to hear about the accident. I hope the injured climber has a full and a speedy recovery, and as a fellow climber, I send my thanks to all those who assisted (affectively) in the rescue. I also send my best wishes to the loved ones (including the boyfriend) who's hearts are being torn up by this. Be strong, and know that we're pulling with you.
Second, Tradmanclimbs has said elsewhere on this board that he enjoys shooting from the hip, and stirring things up. Please read his posts with that context in mind.
Third, thank you to those who have provided further information about the accident. Factual information, when it is available, is invaluable to everyone involved. With that said, it does seem, how to put this, a bit unfair, to state: In reply to: On first blush, this accident looks as though it was avoidable; climber and/or belayer error is the most likely contributing factor. Typical -NORMAL- climber and belayer behavior, with the normal checks and re-checks and proper level of attention, would likely have prevented this accident, the same as with the vast majority of climbing accidents anywhere.
... when no accident analysis is provided. After all, every accident is theoretically "avoidable". But by saying the above without providing any details of what actually did happen, one is led to believe that the climbing party did something egregiously stupid, perhaps even criminally negligent. If the details of the accident are not available to the writer of the above, then he appears to be engaging in speculative rumor-mongering to the detriment of the injured and traumatized parties. Perhaps that is not his intention, but that is what comes across.
Compare this to his writing about the boyfriend. Here he actually stated something specific that was his reason for feeling that the boyfriend behaved poorly. In that case, we can see that his castigations are not baseless. Now we can choose to agree or disagree with the writer that the b/f was of "questionable intelligence". But at least in this case the writer doesn't appear to be just "blaming the victim". Big difference.
GO
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tgmd
Oct 8, 2004, 6:33 PM
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robmcc,
You haven't stated what you do to make a living. I see people under a great deal of stress everyday. Your tone is unsympathetic. Over the many years I have done what I do, I have come to realize that everyone sometimes does things that are stupid and impulsive. There may be a day that you are faced with something so horrible and threatening, that you will do something equally dangerous. And then you will understand. "points off"??? Are you keeping score? Let's hope not. And let's keep the tone of this pleasant and maybe we all can learn from it. How 'bout it?
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robmcc
Oct 8, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: You haven't stated what you do to make a living.
Correct. Not relevant.
In reply to: I see people under a great deal of stress everyday. Your tone is unsympathetic.
Let's keep it in context. My response is directed at you, not at the boyfriend. I think you do a disservice to suggest that panic excuses poor choices, and let me be clear, I'm not judging the boyfriend's actions. I wasn't there.
We should, and I believe do, have a standard for emergency care, professional or otherwise. When someone is hurt, even if it's someone you love more than your own life, you do them a disservice if you can't push your emotions aside and do what's best for them. I'm not saying it's easy or even always possible. I'm saying we shouldn't relinquish that goal, even if an emergency physician thinks it's understandable that sometimes we fall short.
In reply to: "points off"??? Are you keeping score? Let's hope not.
It's a euphamism. Let's not play word games.
Rob
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theamish1
Oct 8, 2004, 7:25 PM
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I quit posting on here a few years back, mainly because so much of this has become such a bitch fest. As a local climber, I try to keep abreast of local incidents and that is what attracted me to this. I'm amazed that so many people are offended by Jeff's statement but your not offended by the accident. Jeff's statements may have been perceived as harsh, but I would think they were born of frustration from an ever-growing danger. Lack of knowledge in a sport that has the potential to get you killed. The intellect of sh*t happens should never enter the climbing arena. This is one of the few sports that so many of its participants don't have any formal coaching in. They buy some gear, maybe climb a few times in an indoor gym, then head out to an isolated area to practice skills that may be real but are more than likely imagined. I'm not saying accidents won't happen, but we should at least do everything in our power to prevent them. We assisted in a rescue last year of a girl who fell. The doctors said that if the injury to her spine had been a 1/8th of an inch over she probably would have been paralyzed for life, now that would have been harsh. Good thing we knew what we were doing by not moving or yanking her around. If you climb, educate yourself to the consequences of your sport and what to do if things go wrong, if not for yourself, for the sake of possibly your loved one whom may get injured. The boyfriend may have had his feelings hurt by being called a moron, but think of how he would feel if he caused her to be paralyzed or worse. Giving a pat on the back and the statement of, well at least you tried, serves no purpose here other than to validate like behavior by others in the future.
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robmcc
Oct 8, 2004, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: Giving a pat on the back and the statement of, well at least you tried, serves no purpose here other than to validate like behavior by others in the future.
Nicely said. Quite a bit better than I managed.
Rob
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micon
Oct 8, 2004, 7:49 PM
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Aside from all the bullshit - Who's an idiot who called who an idiot - Most Importantly I am glad to hear some good news about Dani. It is a weight off my mind to know that she is doing well, and I hope she makes a full recovery. Thanks for the updates everyone, and keep them coming.
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andy_lemon
Oct 8, 2004, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: andy, Read your post :roll: Sure sounds like you are giveing jeff a free license to call anyone he pleases a douch bag.
I'm not to the point on the local climbing hierarchal latter to issue such licenses. If I were, I would keep them all for myself. http://le-mank.com/...mil4111bf1ff1940.gif
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 8, 2004, 8:41 PM
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not trying to stir things up at all on this thread. to the contrary i was trying to calm them down.
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shank
Oct 8, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: andy, Read your post :roll: Sure sounds like you are giveing jeff a free license to call anyone he pleases a douch bag. I'm not to the point on the local climbing hierarchal latter to issue such licenses. If I were, I would keep them all for myself. http://le-mank.com/...mil4111bf1ff1940.gif
Actually I think one of the Ammendment to the Constitution of the united States is a free license to call anyone you please a douch bag. I believe most people refer to this ammendment as the freedom of speech.
And Andy, latter should be spelled ladder. Douch Bag!!! :lol:
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 8, 2004, 10:09 PM
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you can call anyone anything you want. that dosen't mean that its socialy acceptable.
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danpayne
Oct 8, 2004, 11:55 PM
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Wow, talk about thread hijacking. Apparently this Stockton guy is pissed at rc.com now, whoever he is. Don't get me wrong, I'm just a small mind with a loud opinion, wasting your time, But, I would have a LOT of trouble watching my girlfriend plummit without trying to catch her or just do something. Yes, I know that sounds retarded, but who thinks rationally when they see something like that happen. WHY DID THE BOYFRIEND DO THAT?!?! Why did simon cut joes rope!? Why did Seinfeld end so crappy? I don't know. I don't really care. I wish the girl a speedy recovery, as well as her boyfriend. (Seeing that couldn't have been good for him emotionally.) The only other thing I can wish them is that neither of them ever see this thread, or stockton's letters.
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jds100
Oct 9, 2004, 12:03 AM
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To the Doctor in St. Louis,
Thank you for your interest in the thread about the accident in southern Illinois, and I hope your son enjoys the wonderful environs of Utah.
I want to clarify for your information that there was a trainied EMT on scene at the accident within 3 minutes (he'd been climbing nearby), and it was his criticism of the "boyfriend" that I passed along to others via my original email. I don't know if you read it before commenting in the thread on RockClimbing.com. The main thrust of my original email, my second email (both are linked to the thread), and my comments in the thread itself has been to stress the need to acquire some basic training, and to be prepared psychologically for the consequences of an accident in a remote area. Climbing training often emphasizes visualizing the movement of a specific route that a climber may have as a goal. Preparing psychologically for a worst-case scenario in a remote wild area could also involve a kind of visualization. Such preparation will go a long way to allay the onset of a panic reaction. Preparation will go a long way to train one to respond, rather than react. Preparation and mindfulness are what I stressed in my initial email. Please read it if you have not already done so.
It bothers me that you said that the boyfriend "probably didn't do any harm"; this dismisses the very real risk that he put the victim to, as well as quite specifically being the exact wrong thing to do, inasmuch as a professional EMT was in the process of an examination. I appreciate that you would like to see some mitigation of my characterization of the boyfriend (which was comprised of one simple phrase, "questionable intelligence"), however I am concerned that your professional input can easily be interpreted, now, as condoning the actions that this person undertook, and that it would, by implication, be 'not so bad' if someone reading the thread were to do likewise in a similar situation. That is completely opposite of what I want people to consider and learn from this specific situation.
I would further caution you from commenting in an advisorly way about how one might treat a fracture in an emergency. By suggesting that one could go ahead and reduce a fracture, without first seeking qualified help, without first seeking help from someone who could call or go for professional help, you are again providing implicit permission for someone to do exactly the wrong thing in an emergency situation, if not outright encouraging it.
Eric Ulner is a local climber in southern Illinois, and is a professional paramedic (not a volunteer). The EMT who was on scene has at least a couple of decades of EMT experience. My point, and Eric's in subsequent posts to the thread, is that the "boyfriend" very unwisely chose not to follow directions from the EMT on the scene. Such foolish and/or arrogant behavior most certainly put the victim at serious risk. I don't know where people are getting the idea that she is "doing fine"; no one has stated that, so we don't yet know what damage may have been done. To say that he "probably didn't do any harm" is wishful, and is not borne out in the experiences that these EMTs have had in the field.
Thank you for your interest.
Jeff D. Stockton
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danpayne
Oct 9, 2004, 12:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't beat up on the poor guy. He panicked. I disagree on that count. Once the accident is in progress, it's too late to get training and whoever is on hand is what you have to work with. The one thing you can control is your own emotional reaction. Don't panic! You'll be anywhere from less effective to useless if you do. So, sorry, the guy gets points off if he paniced. Rob
this isn't a "Flame Post" its an honset question. What exactly qualifies you to disagree with a physician?
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robmcc
Oct 9, 2004, 12:14 AM
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In reply to: this isn't a "Flame Post" its an honset question. What exactly qualifies you to disagree with a physician?
Interesting question. What about being a physician precludes disagreement? What part of a physician's training or experience justifies saying that panic in an emergency situation should just be expected and accepted? Am I really wrong that we should set a higher bar than that?
I really expect my partners to keep it together if I deck. My life may depend on it.
Rob
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jds100
Oct 9, 2004, 12:26 AM
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By the way, Simon Yates cut the rope precisely because he was thinking rationally, and Joe Simpson, rationally, supported Yates' decision.
I agree completely with Robmcc. Your life does depend on it.
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okie_redneck
Oct 9, 2004, 12:33 AM
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Despite loathing some of the comments on this thread, they did at least get me to thinking about the risks I put myself through when I climb. I also realized that I learnned infant CPR over 10 years ago. If you'd just asked me casually, I'd say "Yeah, I know it." Thinking of things closely, yeah, I've had lots of emergency training, but not lately. I'm probably more dangerous b/c I once knew a bit about at least taking care of a compound fracture. I don't think in the heat of that moment that I'd have considered anything other that making my girlfriend as comfortable as possible because after 10 years, some of the details of first aid can be forgotten. If it'd been me and I noticed the bleeding getting worse, I'd have remembered immediately and way too late why not to move a compound fracture. I am emberassed to have forgotten. I will be finding some sort of refresher class shortly. If a couple others reading this thread do the same, all of the angst and bantering back and forth will have ended up having a positive effect.
My best wishes to everyone effected by the fall.
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danpayne
Oct 10, 2004, 9:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: this isn't a "Flame Post" its an honset question. What exactly qualifies you to disagree with a physician? Interesting question. What about being a physician precludes disagreement? What part of a physician's training or experience justifies saying that panic in an emergency situation should just be expected and accepted? Am I really wrong that we should set a higher bar than that? I really expect my partners to keep it together if I deck. My life may depend on it. Rob
Yeah, I deleted that post cause I didn't think it through at all before posting. So, please disregard it.
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tgreene
Oct 10, 2004, 1:33 PM
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Having myself been the "victim" in a horrific climbing accident that nearly left me paralyzed, I was fortunate to have been able to keep a cool enough head and actually lead my own extraction, because the responding volunteer firemen and medics didn't have a clue about wilderness rescue... although their hearts were clearly in the right place.
I've also been the first on the scene of others' climbing accidents where multiple fractures took place, and know to keep everything as 'low key' as humanly possible. If the victim becomes panicked, then they will also have a much greater tendency to thrash about and become combative, which is the worst possible situation to have to overcome... it also tends to compound the extent of their injuries.
As a raft guide, I have twice been in situations of having to palpate a young women who possibly sustained internal injuries during a nasty swim, and in both situations, the overly panic stricken and JEALOUS boyfriends kept reacting in a heinous manner when I would have to touch these women in their nether regions... The only way either situation could be reasonably controlled in order to keep the victims from panicking in the worst degree, was to have other bystanders forcefully REMOVE the hindering boyfriends, so they could no longer interfere and escalate the situations.
People have good intentions, but the best thing a person can do, is to always yield to the more experienced person on the scene. That includes handing over any and all notes that have been taken, as well as simply stepping back a few feet and making it clearly known that you Will accept whatever orders are given to you, by the senior rescue person.
FWIW: Wilderness first aid can often be about as opposite as standard practices, but that assessment can only be determined by the variables at scene itself.
Tim Greene
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jefffski
Oct 11, 2004, 3:32 AM
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interesting thread. there is no doubt that i can use more wilderness first aid training. however i do not liked to be ranted at in the manner that stockton has chosen. he does a disservice to all of the volunteer organizations that help promote and maintain rock climbing. his tone smacks of arrogance of the worst kind. cool down beyatch. we're all on the same side.
his last comment suuggests that the emt told the bf what (not) to do. this is the first we've heard of this. did the emt identify himself as such to the bf? we don't know because we haven't read the accident report. in this case your comments do more harm than good.
as some have done in this thread, let's focus on what went wrong, what should have been done and why and what we can learn from the accident.
name calling and labelling may be your right under your constitution, but as an official of a volunteer organization methinks you should know better.
best wishes and speedy recovery to dani.
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holdplease2
Oct 11, 2004, 3:54 AM
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An analogy: Jeff Stockton (a volunteer representative of an organization) knows about as much about PR as the boyfriend (a climber) in this case knew about First Aid.
PR skills are the First Aid of "official representatives"
My best advice to you, or anyone who self-selects to be in your position?
The same as you had for the boyfriend...
Get the proper training to perform well in your position...it will keep you out of terrible f-ed up stressful situations like this because you will know how to handle it when the sh!t hits the fan.
I have nothing but respect for folks who volunteer, don't get me wrong. But when you volunteer for a position, know 100% of the skills required and be able to use them at a moments notice...setting your pride and all else aside. Its the responsibility you volunteered for.
Maybe read some books, read some corporate press releases (the crap they write when the sh!t hits the fan for them)...read ANAM (I know you do) but with a eye for what makes the content both clear/accurate and non-offensive. Offensiveness takes the focus off of the real issue at hand...and that defeats the purpose, you know?
Anyway, keep up the hard work, and good luck.
-Kate.
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okie_redneck
Oct 11, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: An analogy: Jeff Stockton (a volunteer representative of an organization) knows about as much about PR as the boyfriend (a climber) in this case knew about First Aid. PR skills are the First Aid of "official representatives" My best advice to you, or anyone who self-selects to be in your position? The same as you had for the boyfriend...
I don't care how long my friend's been climbing or how much of a local bigshot he/she is. If I knew someone who commented that way, I'd reevaluate my friendship. I am not able to understand why Mr. Stockton felt it necessary to attack the boyfriend so aggressively. It was not the message that has wrong, but the delivery.
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jds100
Oct 11, 2004, 4:54 AM
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I strongly suggest that those of you who feel compelled to criticize my characterization of the "boyfriend" need to re-read the original email that Andy Lemon linked to this thread in the beginning. How curious it is to me that one word ("questionable") can get so many people's panties in a bunch.
That you would think some rosey shade of PR, or more accurately 'political correctness', would be of service in this situation, particularly when disseminating information to "fellow" climbers, demonstrates how little thought you've given to the functions of an climbing advocacy group. No one in this group ever offered to be a politician, least of all me. What I've tried to do, after no one else would accept the responsibility, is to get the best efforts from a disparate group of people across a medium sized state, working full-time or attending school full-time or some combination of the two, as well as, primarily, to interact with the various land management jurisdictions that have impact on the access "rights" of climbers. In general, climbers rarely know at the outset of a new or impending risk to their usage rights of an area. Staying abreast of pertinent happenings and proposals, so as to be able to act in a timely manner, takes much more time and energy than most well-meaning climbers are typically willing to devote. Hmmm; somewhat analogous to how most climbers don't seem to bother learning something about first-aid, especially wilderness first-aid, maybe giving no thought to the possibility that something unexpected might actually happen, or that they might actually have to do something for themselves.
What positions have you volunteered for? How much help have you rendered to your "climbing community"? Or, maybe you're just another one who takes and takes (and talks and talks), and just assumes that someone else will take care of the business, so you can just have fun and challenge yourself, and test your limits and not be ordinary, blah, blah, blah. When you've done your fair share, when you've shouldered your share of the load -or actually more than your share if you want to make it even- then you come back and criticize me from a position of experience. From the safety of your overstuffed cushion, you may think you know "what it takes" for a volunteer position, but you don't have a clue. Maybe a good first step for you in overcoming your complacency would be to admit that you have so little to bring to the table in this discussion.
Again, if the little word "questionable" is so offensive or "aggressive" to you, you probably should step away from your computer, and never come close to an internet forum ever again.
I have nothing to gain by placating the likes of you, or trying to appeal to those whose first inclination to this accident would have been to say, "It's okay; you didn't know. You meant well." That's pathetic. As I said before, put a loved one in place of the victim here, and genuinely imagine how you'd respond to seeing this guy do what he did to your loved one. You clearly have no idea what is "the real issue at hand." Your "best advice"? Who asked for your advice? Not wanted; not taken. Your advice is as useless as your wishes for good luck, and about as disingenuous.
By the way, jeffski, are you suggesting that it would be acceptable for the "boyfriend" to do the wrong thing if he hadn't been told not to? Good thinking; sound logic. And, I guess you're looking for a verbatim transcript of every conversation that took place, before you can make a sound assessment of good or bad judgement and procedure, right?
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okie_redneck
Oct 11, 2004, 5:12 AM
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Jeff, my sister overdosed a couple months ago. Her husband couldn't wake her up in the morning and didn't know what to do. He gave her CPR because she wasn't breathing, but he did not call EMS. He called my Mom, who called for help. He was simply not up to making the right choices himself. I'd have to say that was a hell of alot worse than not knowing how to help a fall victim but trying anyway. I have to tell you that I was personally enraged at the whole situation, but I am also certain that I behaved better about a situation that I was personally involved in than you did in your comments about the situatin you had nothing to do with. I'm sure you meant the best, but your choices weren't the equal to your intentions. Ironic, ain't it?
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holdplease2
Oct 11, 2004, 5:20 AM
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Sorry to have made you upset, I didn't mean to.
Anyway, I really do think some of the things I suggested would help...they've helped me in similar situations...where I was unable to achieve my objectives (education on issues) because I drew the attention away by saying things that got under peoples skin. I am very good at saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, this is how I know it when I see it. Believe me.
Either way, take it or leave it, helping people avoid PR nightmares is one of the things I do for a living, so I just can't help it. Politics is one way to spin it, another way to spin it is figuring out how to keep people listning to you open-mindedly for as long as possible...so they can learn what you have to say. That's what you want, right?
And yeah, I'm one of those that just takes and takes and talks and talks, so thank you for all of your efforts.
-Kate.
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jds100
Oct 11, 2004, 5:53 AM
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Kate,
When I think I've said the wrong thing at the wrong time, I'll keep you in mind.
If you really just "can't help" giving unsolicited advice, then I suggest you stop charging your clients.
You're assuming that you know my "objectives", and that they haven't been met. I answered an email asking about an accident. I have no objectives beyond that; if people want to focus on the useless aspects of their misperceptions, including you, then they -and you- are, of course, free to do so. Spend your time however you want. My objectives with respect to climbing advocacy have nothing to do with appeasing the likes of the majority of people who've posted to this thread. I may find it amazing that so little discussion has been related to the subjects of first-aid preparedness and being mentally and psychologically prepared for worst-case scenarios which are quite possible when climbing, but I don't really care to try to change their minds. If they don't get that they should be as prepared as possible, then they'll just have to wait for nasty ol' people like me to come along and try to pick up their messes when they get in a jam out there. It sure as h#ll won't be all these nice folks who are more interested in trying to rip into me for one comment that accurately portrayed the boyfriend's behavior in this accident.
I'm not selling anything, and I'm certainly not interested in buying -or trying for free- whatever advice or expertise you wish to pass out. If you really "just can't help it", seek professional help. There, see, that was unsolicted advice, and it's worth as much as yours.
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