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dingus
Oct 20, 2004, 3:30 PM
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dmt
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zozo
Oct 20, 2004, 3:35 PM
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When you start to fish tail dont slam on your brakes. Take your foot off the gas and turn gently in the oppostite direction your skidding.
When I moved to Colorado I couldnt believe how people drove in the snow.
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2004, 3:39 PM
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Nice! I like this. I'll even add a couple.
(First, an addendum to the Emergency Kit: sleeping bag, food.)
7. Sometimes... SOMETIMES... it's smarter to just stay home. Eastcoast ice storms come immediately to mind, since these conditions can easily negate more than a few of the above snow-driving tips.
8. Decelerate BEFORE you get to the curve/turn.
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atg200
Oct 20, 2004, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: 8. Decelerate BEFORE you get to the curve/turn.
this is a big one. braking hard while you turn is a good way to lose control of your vehicle.
in the last year, i saw several bad accidents, one of which i think was a fatality, in little cottonwood canyon. they were all caused by people passing when they shouldn't. when the road conditions are bad, it is much more difficult and dangerous to weave through traffic. considering that you are just going to get stuck behind more slow people in a minute or two anyway, it is much better to just chill. i am an aggressive driver that loves passing huge lines of cars, but it is just not worth it in bad conditions.
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iltripp
Oct 20, 2004, 4:00 PM
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Very good thread dingus. I can relate. Nothing worse than sharing a snowy road with people who don't know how to drive in those conditions.
A quick point to add....
Learn how to downshift!!!!
Going down a steep hill: downshift. Use the brakes as little as possible. If you need to slow down quickly, downshift and pump the brakes. Never slam on the brakes.
In reply to: 3. Don't rely upon your 4wd to do your driving for you. 4wd's seem to wreck more in snow storms than regular cars... there are more of them and the drivers are usually just as clueless as those driving Daihatsu's tend to be. You sort of have to know how to drive on slippery surfaces before you can drive on slippery surfaces. This single most important thing to remember about slippery surfaces is that they are slippery.
Ditto that... SUV's provide a huge false sense of confidence. Knowing how to drive in the snow is much more important than having 4wd. Granted, some situations require 4wd, but I'd rather have myself driving my front wheel drive car then someone else driving an SUV. Also, many SUV's fail miserably as far as handling goes, so you might even be safer without it.
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atg200
Oct 20, 2004, 4:04 PM
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if you drive a gigantic SUV, keep in mind that 4WD means four wheel drive and not four wheel stop. those things can slide forever. my little subaru outback was much better for driving on snowy roads than the toyota tacoma 4WD i drive now.
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bandidopeco
Oct 20, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Having a 4 wheel drive will only help you go. It does NOTHING to help you stop!!! This is especially important when driving downhill. Growing up in Squaw Valley, I was able to learn a few tricks, one of which is driving with 2 tires, normally the 2 right tires, slightly in the snowbank. You get more traction this way, and if you start to slide out of control, you can ease the car into the snowbank to help you stop. Remember, it's much much better to stop using the snowbank then the bumber of the car in front of you.
Another thing I like to do is check how my car reacts in the current conditions. When I start driving on a snowy day I'll purposefully (in a safe place) hit the brakes hard, and turn hard, just to see when my car skids. This is usefull to know.
One of the biggest advantages of growing up near a big ski area was having a wide open parking lot to practice skidding. If your stay overnight it might be a good idea to take the car to any large, vacant parking lot that's covered in snow. Here you can purposefully spin the car, skid, and learn what you can about how your car really handles in the snow. try skidding and getting back in control. Over-correcting is a big mistake, and i saw the results first hand last year when a brand new volvo started fish-tailing 2 cars in front of me on highway 89 between tahoe city and alpine meadows. The driver had 3 or 4 chances to stop by driving into the snowbank, but he kept on overcorrecting. This caused him to spin out into on-comming traffic and hit a new pickup truck comming the other way. Do you want to dig your car out of the snowbank, or deal with insurance?
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natas
Oct 20, 2004, 4:10 PM
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what do people from NC know about snow.
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cologman
Oct 20, 2004, 4:13 PM
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DRIVE FAST - BRAKE HARD! :?
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davidio
Oct 20, 2004, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: if you drive a gigantic SUV, keep in mind that 4WD means four wheel drive and not four wheel stop. those things can slide forever. my little subaru outback was much better for driving on snowy roads than the toyota tacoma 4WD i drive now.
VIVA LA SUBARU!!!! About one in every four Vermonters drives one. It snows here a little bit. I'm on my second one. PLUS it has gotten me SOOOOO many chicks!! Fits a pretty decent ammount of ski/climbing/backpacking/lemonadestand/beerbrewing/bbq gear, too.
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itakealot
Oct 20, 2004, 4:20 PM
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Front wheel drive cars are great in the snow too. To put on the chains just turn your wheels out and you can get the chains on is seconds. Once in my 4x4 trooper the CHP at the check point said if I want to drive in 4x4 mode I had to have a set of chains for each tire! So I had to drive all the way to mammoth in 2 wheel mode after spending $70.00 bucks on chains in Bishop thinking I wouldn't need any for 4x4.
On snow, only 20 to 40 percent of your tire surface is actaully being used.
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dingus
Oct 20, 2004, 4:24 PM
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In reply to: Once in my 4x4 trooper the CHP at the check point said if I want to drive in 4x4 mode I had to have a set of chains for each tire! So I had to drive all the way to mammoth in 2 wheel mode after spending $70.00 bucks on chains in Bishop thinking I wouldn't need any for 4x4.
Solution: Next time, lie through your teeth at chain control (he was just being a dick). Yes I have them. Oh, they're buried in the back...
I have even thrown the chains from my wife's saturn in the jeep for this particular purpose (SURE I HAVE CHAINS!!! you didn't ask if they fit!)
DMT
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usmc_2tothetop
Oct 20, 2004, 4:32 PM
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If your car does not turn the way you want it and slides straight, at a moderate speed you can quickly lock the E-Break for a sec and it helps bring the back end around to help turn the car. Sometimes alittle acceleration is needed with a front wheel car, but if your at a moderate speed just a "tap" of the E-Break helps. try this in a parking lot first to get the feel and it WILL help you with a failed turn, to prevent you from going off the road.
On another note, I don't ski but the ski goggles thing sounds like a good idea. Do you know a good brand for a good price???
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dingus
Oct 20, 2004, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: On another note, I don't ski but the ski goggles thing sounds like a good idea. Do you know a good brand for a good price???
Amber or yellow 'driving' or 'shooting' glasses provide the same effect.
You won't believe the positive impact storm glasses provide. Besides improving vision, they greatly reduce fatigue and storm headaches that come from squinting for hours on end, concentrating on peerig through that last 1 inch of clean glass on the hopelessly frozen over windshield.
Once you get below the snow line, take em off though.
Serengetti are good ones, though very expensive. Sierra Outfitters has them on sale frequently. Goggles.. what ever is on sale at REI. Decent ones start at around $45.
DMT
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imnotclever
Oct 20, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Once in my 4x4 trooper the CHP at the check point said if I want to drive in 4x4 mode I had to have a set of chains for each tire! So I had to drive all the way to mammoth in 2 wheel mode after spending $70.00 bucks on chains in Bishop thinking I wouldn't need any for 4x4. Solution: Next time, lie through your teeth at chain control (he was just being a dick). Yes I have them. Oh, they're buried in the back... I have even thrown the chains from my wife's saturn in the jeep for this particular purpose (SURE I HAVE CHAINS!!! you didn't ask if they fit!) DMT
There is so much about this dialog that I don't understand. CHP? Chain control? This must be either a mountain or regional thing. Explain this please. I don't even think I've seen a car with chains on in my life.
My snowblower has chains.
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usmc_2tothetop
Oct 20, 2004, 4:45 PM
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Thanks
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dingus
Oct 20, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: There is so much about this dialog that I don't understand. CHP? Chain control? This must be either a mountain or regional thing. Explain this please. I don't even think I've seen a car with chains on in my life. My snowblower has chains.
OK, the thing to understand is that A. Minnesotans in general know more about snow driving than any humans ought to know. Lets get that established straight away.
But Minnesotans don't know nothing about MOUNTAIN driving in the snow, and sharing the road with people who live in places where it NEVER snows.
It's the combination of mountains and noobs that dictates the need for chains. Studded snow tires aren't legal on the streets of Oakland, so Cal drivers outside the mtn areas can't go that route easily.
The chains serve a hugely important purpose... they slow the traffic down.
CHP is California Highway Patrol... remember the CHiP's TV program from the 70's? Pauncho and Lefty or whatever the hell their names were?
Anyway, think about crossing a mountain pass at 8000 feet in a driving snow storm on an interstate highway where the vasy majority of your fellow drivers have little or no experience with snow driving... chains are your friend my friend.
Chains in the flatlands make little sense of course.
Cheers
DMT
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usmc_2tothetop
Oct 20, 2004, 4:52 PM
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I hate when I see that dumb ass that only scraped just a line on they're windshield so it's like they are driving in a tank. And they wonder why they go slow.
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drector
Oct 20, 2004, 4:54 PM
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4WD helps you stop if you have an old clunker. When I drive my '74 Bronco in 2WD and brake, the rear wheels lock up real quick. With 4WD engaged, the front and back are tied together so there is a braking benefit from 4WD. The rear cannot lock without the front locking too.
Of course all the posts are mostly right on about 4WD giving a false sense of security.
Also, when skidding, turn to the direction the car is going and not the direction the car is pointing or rotating. This means that if the rear of the car is passing the front of the car on the left, steer the front of the car to the left to keep it in front of the rear of the car. I think one of the early posts described it as turning the direction of the skid but people who can't do it also don't know which direction is the direction of the skid. Go out to a parking lot and skid your car in the snow for practice! Get as comfortable as possible with it.
Keep right and let others pass. Move over at a pullout if you can't drive at a speed that is reasonable to others.
And it's dumping snow in Tahoe right now. Incline Village got almost a foot last night at the ski area. Wow.
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jeph
Oct 20, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: I hate when I see that dumb ass that only scraped just a line on they're windshield so it's like they are driving in a tank. And they wonder why they go slow.
To add to this, people who ONLY clean their windshields need a good smack. That foot of snow on your roof is going to come off sooner or later... it's fine if it comes off immediately (and completely, although your rear window is probably now covered) but it's never good when it turns into a thick sheet of ice and pops off when you're going 70mph on the highway, in heavy traffic.
Some great tips in here. Unfortunately, here in MA, most people need to re-learn how to drive in the snow every year. The first few snowfalls are not a pretty sight.
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slobmonster
Oct 20, 2004, 5:08 PM
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If you drive a FRONT-wheel drive vehicle, you will find that the traditional advice regarding steering into a skid does NOT apply, or at least not as well. Instead, and I know this is counterintuitive, a brisk little tap on the accelerator can swing your tail end back around.
Drive with your gears. When I'm behind someone and it's snowing, and they appear to barely ever even tap the brakes, I know that they know what they're doing. Or they might ve high on the smack.
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crag
Oct 20, 2004, 5:26 PM
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Snow schmow who the hell needs any of this advice? What with all of the added safety features on today's cars, we need not concern ourselves with such silly little events.
“NOT to worry honey I'll get us there, firing up his new X whatever SUV our valiant and brave snow warrior packs his brood in to their bright and shiny vehicle equipped with Full Time 4WD, ATC, VSC, 4W-ABS, NAV Control, run flat Blizzak tires and front, rear with side curtain air bags."
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petsfed
Oct 20, 2004, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: what do people from NC know about snow.
Not to feed the troll, but STFU. If you're sliding on the snow in Wyoming, you shouldn't be driving to begin with. When it snows in NC, its wet, its heavy, and it ices up fast. So if you're a good snow driver in North Carolina, chances are you're a good snow driver anywhere.
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davidji
Oct 20, 2004, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: Snow schmow who the hell needs any of this advice? What with all of the added safety features on today's cars, we need not concern ourselves with such silly little events.
Speaking of which, does anyone here disable their ABS for certain conditions, or all the time?
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corporatedog
Oct 20, 2004, 6:07 PM
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Good topic DMT - I would also suggest carrying 2 sets of chains if you do any driving on roads other than the main drags.
Five times last season I came across people walking down the road looking for help. Seems that the cheapo Walmart specials they bought had broken - leaving them stranded on the road with one good chain and one broken.
Suggest paying some decent money for a GOOD set of chains. Decent chains will run you 50 -70 bucks - but will last. For a second set - you can go with something cheaper as a back up. Also - get an extra set of the rubber tension bands.
Stay away from those snow tire cables unless you only drive plowed roads through town. Yes, they are easier to put on, but they will NOT cut into ice and slush on the open road like a set of ladder chains will do.
Since putting chains on can be wet and messy - I carry a 6x8 foot piece of Tyvek house wrap to lay on. Got it for free from the housing tract down the street - works great - folds down small, weighs next to nothing, is waterproof, cleans with a blast from the water hose.
You mentioned a shovel - YES. Even if all you do is drive to the ski resort - carry a small folding shovel. The guys who plow roads at the resorts will push 1-2 feet of snow up against cars parked along the road side. When you come back from skiing all day - you wont' be able to move your car unless you first move this wall of snow. Rather than scratch at it with your gloved hand for 1/2 an hour like an idiot - whip out your too cool GI Joe shovel and dig out in 5 minutes. Impress your friends!
Another trick is to carry some pieces of old carpet strips in the trunk. I have 2 pieces about 1 foot wide and 4 feet long. If you do get stuck or stopped and need traction - lay these strips in front of the tires and drive right over them to get your speed up. Small tree branches from pines, cedars or spruces will work as well.
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steamboatclimber
Oct 20, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is so much about this dialog that I don't understand. CHP? Chain control? This must be either a mountain or regional thing. Explain this please. I don't even think I've seen a car with chains on in my life. My snowblower has chains. OK, the thing to understand is that A. Minnesotans in general know more about snow driving than any humans ought to know. Lets get that established straight away. But Minnesotans don't know nothing about MOUNTAIN driving in the snow, and sharing the road with people who live in places where it NEVER snows.
The reason Minnesotains know how to drive on snow probably has to do with the fact that even if the roads are frozen for 13 months a year, both chains and studded tires are illegal. They acctually force people to learn to drive on the snow and ice without the assistance on metal on their tires. I grew up in Minnesota and now live in Colorado. I have to say that the people that learned how to drive in Colorado aree no less likely to wreck on some mountian pass. I think the biggest thing to remember about snow and ice driving is that over-confidance will always get you. My mom always said to drive like there are eggs under your pedals and you don't want to break them, and these are not hard boiled eggs.
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dlintz
Oct 20, 2004, 6:12 PM
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In reply to: VIVA LA SUBARU!!!! About one in every four Vermonters drives one.
About one in every four Boulderites doesn't drive one. :lol:
Some great tips here, especially braking before the turn or curve.
d.
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tgreene
Oct 20, 2004, 6:13 PM
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The single most important thing to keep in mind, is to always remember to keep your fuel tank topped off, if you'll be traveling in poor conditions!
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dingus
Oct 20, 2004, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: VIVA LA SUBARU!!!! About one in every four Vermonters drives one. About one in every four Boulderites doesn't drive one. :lol:
You know, I know Subaru's. I've owned two of them. The Subarude Superiority Complex can be very annoying to those of us who know thatr if a car can make a person superior it will NOT BE a Subaru! LOL!
They aren't magic carpet rides and in snow do not handle any better than my cheap assed jeep cherokee. In fact, Outbacks are notorious for roll overs! I know I know, you Subarudes are all gasping for air... how can your precious subes be rolling over like Ford Explorers?
Easy... the people who drive them are no smarter after all than the SUV crowd they love to denigrate.
I spit on your Subaru's!
Seriously though, they are merely all wheel drive cars, end of story. Nothing special about them whatsoever and don't you dare take the delicate things off road!
They are cute though. Very cute. Rav cute.
DMT
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sancho
Oct 20, 2004, 6:49 PM
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I grew up in the countryside of MN and also spend a lot of time in the sierra, as such, I am an expert on snow driving :wink:
Here are some general lessons for my fellow L.A. drivers, who by and large are really terriable drivers, especially in conditions other than 80' and sunny.
1. Your big 2wd SUV is a piece of crap in the snow. It is much worse than the little front wheel drive honda that just passed you and will probably get stuck or spin out of control. Go very slow or you will crash. You will then probably roll over and die. (please note that nearly all SOCAL SUVs are 2wd)
2. Do not tailgate, pass or otherwise leave your lane when it is snowing. Stop being a selfish jacka$$ L.A. driver!
3. If you do have 4wd for some reason (like you bought a Land Rover), it does not make you stop any faster. Stop tailgating me!!!
4. Yeah, I don't care if you have ABS, slow down!
5. Again, slow down especially in corners
6. When your big crap SUV does spin out of control, turn gradually into the slide. If you don't understand what this means, please, take the bus.
7. Buy new tires appropriate for what you are doing. Old worn tires significantly reduce traction in wet and snowy conditions.
8. Buy new wipers and wiper fluid. Even though you don't use them in LA, you will in the mountains.
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cgailey
Oct 20, 2004, 6:50 PM
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Am I the first Alaskan to post in this one? All I can say is drive faster and get the heck outta my way! :lol:
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earlethesquirrel
Oct 20, 2004, 6:55 PM
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Drive behind the snowplow and use the reflectors on the side of the road to stay on the road. Don't get too close, they dump sand every once in a while. Don't worry about the windshield. If you live in a mountainous state/area, they get cracked all the time.
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j_from_the_307
Oct 20, 2004, 7:28 PM
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1. Always have an escape plan and make sure you have enough room to execute it. (How long is it going to take me to come to a complete stop? If the guy in front of me tries to stop (assuming similar time to stop), do I have enough room to pull off to the side into that nice snowbank?) Think about your reaction time versus your car's reaction time and adjust accordingly.
2. TEST your car's reaction in a relatively safe section. I usually do it with nobody behind me and a nice shoulder of unpacked snow to the side. Try to slow down by slowly applying pressure to the brakes. Figure out what it takes to lock up the brakes and then stay slightly less than that.
3. As stated above, you get a lot more traction with just two tires off the road/hardpack. A lot of times you'll even dig through the snow to the dirt/mud below, create a rut, and your car will magically straighten out just before you hit that delineator post. Pay attention to how the snow is packed on the road and if you need to slow down/turn quickly, try to avoid doing it on the hard packed snow (usually slicker than unpacked). Drive on the hardpack otherwise, so that other people have this option if they need it.
4. Stay as far away from those other people who obviously don't have experience driving in snow. There are a lot of greenies (colorado) with said SUV's with no real experience with them. I hate driving in Colorado in the winter. I feel perfectly confident that I can handle my vehicle in the snow, and can minimize any accidents if they do have to occur. Driving around other people is what scares me... because I can't feel that same way around other people. Keep your space, if you have to pass, get in front of them as quickly as possible, while still maintaining control. You're in more danger when you're close behind/right next to them than you are in front of them.
5. Follow someone from Wyoming or Minnesota *lol*. Stick with someone who seems to know what they are doing (allowing more than enough space of course). You can see how their car reacts to things in front of you, giving you more time to react. (pre-emption?) Usually it won't be bad, but it'll give you a heads up before anything happens to your vehicle. It also allows you to help them if something does go severely wrong. In Wyoming, if you crash alone, it could be a few hours before the next guy comes by. And there's not always service to call for help. They won't see you if you wreck, but you have a much better chance of avoiding this because you have that pre-emptive vision.
6. Don't be deathly afraid of running into something at slow speeds. It sucks for insurance, but usually in the snow the impact won't be as hard. (unless you hit a tree, but to hit a tree you have to plow through the snow to get to it, so you'll be going slow as it is) A lot of people freak out if they are going to hit something and try to over correct. Sometimes it is unavoidable that you will go off the road, straight into that delineator pole and ruin that brand new paint job on your Mercedes. Oh wait, this is RC.com... Come on, nobody is going to notice one more paint scratch/dent on your beater anyway, and if they do, you just look like more of a dirtbag. (++points) You're not going to get hurt if you rear end the guy in front of you, even if you're going 10mph faster than him. You're not going to die if you slide into a snow drift at even 30 mph. Snow is soft... Remember: It's just a car.
7. I can't believe this one hasn't been said yet, but WEAR YOUR SEATBELT! I don't drive until everyone in the car is "on-belay".
8. Be prepared. Sleeping bags and a day or two worth of food to keep you warm is a good idea. Pay attention to where you are, it will come in handy. Don't leave your car running too long if you're stuck... people have suffocated from CO/CO2 coming back into the car. Run it only as long as you need to get the car warm again. Stay with your car: it is easiest to spot for others. Certain situations may call for other options.
As always, these are only recommendations, and changing conditions call for changing strategies. #3 and parts of #8 may not be a good idea in certain conditions.
--J
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j_from_the_307
Oct 20, 2004, 7:31 PM
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Oh yeah, and HAVE PATIENCE. PATIENCE PATIENCE PATIENCE. You're not going to get there very fast anyway, is it really worth passing everyone that's going 5 mph slower than you? It'll only add a few more minutes to the already long haul.
Like they say, Patience is a virgin.
Err... Virtue...
--J
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glowering
Oct 20, 2004, 7:49 PM
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Yeah don't tailgate. Why do 90% of people tailgate? When the car in front of you passes a pole or something you should be able to count at least 2-3 seconds before you pass it, 4-5 seconds for poor conditions. If you need to hit the brakes on the freeway you are tailgating and then everyone hits their brakes more and more which causes congestion. Uneeded lane changes cause congestion too. Some people are too shortsighted to see this I guess.
I think the chain requirements are also needed since the snow accumulates so fast (at least in the Sierra) that they can't plow fast enough to keep the road clear, the steep inclines lead to people literally spinning their wheels, and the temp can change so fast that ice can form very fast.
When you park and it's snowing flip your windshield wipers up off the windshield, otherwise they can get frozen to the glass (when all that heat Dingus had you generate wears off and it freezes) and prying them off thrashes them.
Watch out for that black ice. I lost control on New Years Eve once coming down Old 40 right in front of Black Wall, the black ice looked identical to the dry pavement.
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hoppinbig
Oct 20, 2004, 7:58 PM
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As a canadian I feel compelled to help those less qualified out... some good tips here... I can just think of one now:
If you are trying to get moving from a stop and your wheels slip - try starting in 2nd gear - much less torque this way (you won't break any 0-60 times this way but it will get you moving).
Someone else mentioned it but it needs to be said again - down-shifting is the best way to slow down on slippery roads (just make sure you ease off the clutch slower than in a normal downshift or you can lose control).
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steamboatclimber
Oct 20, 2004, 8:09 PM
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.... remember to always have an excuse to tell your friends why you, the person who is always instructing others on the art of driving in the snow, just crashed their new subi in the last big storm. Black ice seems to be a favorite....
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hiram
Oct 20, 2004, 8:21 PM
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good topic,
i remember in southern CA. people would put their chains on miles before they actually got to the snow covered roads, if it was raining (at lower elev.) they would chain up, likewise they would leave their chains on until they we so far away from the snow they had to turn the a/c back on. i always got a kick out of these socal people that have never seen snow, much less driven in it.............
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climbco
Oct 20, 2004, 8:23 PM
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Driving on a Pass tips....
If you're going 10 mph on a one lane, PULL OVER!!!!!!!!!!
Not everyone else wants to smell your brakes and have to ride theirs too becuase you're driving like a jerk.
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davidji
Oct 20, 2004, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: If you are trying to get moving from a stop and your wheels slip - try starting in 2nd gear - much less torque this way (you won't break any 0-60 times this way but it will get you moving).
Many automatics also allow you to do a 2nd gear start. At least for some of them, just put the auto shifter on 2.
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mingus
Oct 20, 2004, 8:36 PM
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Lots of good advice here.
I'm surprised more folks haven't mentioned my pet concern about other drivers (including a lot of 4WDs.) That is, know the condition of your tires. Having 'snow tires' that have half the tread gone means you have a whole lot less traction than with new tires. It's the tires that really get you stopped and turned. Lots of suvs are running around with tires that are good in deep snow and mud but suck in icy conditions.
Good tires are really cheap insurance - even at $600 or more for a set. Don't be too cheap about new rubber but most of all know the condition of your tires and drive accordingly.
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icarus_burned
Oct 20, 2004, 8:41 PM
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high gears, low revs
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gds
Oct 20, 2004, 8:42 PM
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Here's some training advice. Of course I grew up in the northern mid west before mandatory insurance and when you could buy a clunker for $50.
In high school when the local pond froze over we'd take our $50 "cars" and race on the ice. It was quite safe and great fun- the ice was thick and with the low friction crashes were pretty low impact. The big benefit was that we learned to drive on pure ice -speed, turns, stopping, etc. So, on the roads we were in very good shape. Except of course for having folks who couldn't drive on ice skidding all over the place.
That's ice! For snow little worry- you just get stuck :-)
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maculated
Oct 20, 2004, 8:47 PM
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When I lived in Mammoth, I used to enjoy sitting at the base of the main drag and watching the cars slide down the hill. It is NOT always a good idea to drive slowly in the snow.
(1) If you're approaching a hill with snow, keep your momentum up, or you WILL lose traction.
I was behind a guy going five miles an hour up the hill who lost traction and started sliding backward. He managed to get himself cocked at an angle before he stopped. I figured he might be intelligent to learn by immitation, so
(2) If you start sliding down a hill, just let it flow. Go backward until you're flat again and then get momentum up again.
I backed up to flatter ground, trucked up ahead, and watched as the moron kept trying to go forward and got himself stuck in a ditch.
MUWAHAHAHAHA
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sancho
Oct 20, 2004, 9:01 PM
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Oh, and if you insist on using stupid chains, get the elastic chain tighteners that help hold the chains on the wheel. This is basically a bungie cord that keeps the chains from flopping around.
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glowering
Oct 20, 2004, 9:13 PM
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In reply to: I was behind a guy going five miles an hour up the hill who lost traction and started sliding backward. He managed to get himself cocked at an angle before he stopped.
OK off topic, but I gotta relate this one. On Sept. 24 this year I was heading up Old Priest Grade (a VERY steep windy shortcut with big steep drop offs) on the way to Yosemite, almost to the top I see a bunch of cars stopped.
I park and get out to take a look. There's a 18 Wheeler tanker truck stopped going uphill blocking BOTH lanes. I say out loud "what the hell is this" just as the driver is walking up to me. He deserved all the embarassment he was feeling.
He had a full truck (of gasoline!) and didn't have enough torque to get over the top. He says "I can back up if you stand behind me and guide me". YEAH RIGHT! I told him he needs professional help. He's going to kill himself if he tries to back down this. Anyone who's seen old priest can imagine this nightmare scenario. I RAN back to my car, turned around, went all the way back down and up the long way, he was still there with a line of cars behind him. I called 911 (took forever to get thru, scary in itself if it was a real emergency) and kept on going.
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sauron
Oct 20, 2004, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is so much about this dialog that I don't understand. CHP? Chain control? This must be either a mountain or regional thing. Explain this please. I don't even think I've seen a car with chains on in my life. My snowblower has chains. OK, the thing to understand is that A. Minnesotans in general know more about snow driving than any humans ought to know. Lets get that established straight away. But Minnesotans don't know nothing about MOUNTAIN driving in the snow, and sharing the road with people who live in places where it NEVER snows.
Having spent far more time than I can remember in Norway (and other scandinavian countries) - I have to say that 80% of the US population, has absolutely no clue what they're talking about, in relation to driving.
American driver's education, is a big joke. I got my US driver's license without showing proof that I could actually drive a car - I only took the computer test. Granted, I was holding my norwegian international driver's license in my hand as I parked my truck outside the DMV main entrance.
But I applaud the advice given in this thread - and thus, the 20% who actually know what they're doing. :)
In reply to: Yeah don't tailgate. Why do 90% of people tailgate? When the car in front of you passes a pole or something you should be able to count at least 2-3 seconds before you pass it, 4-5 seconds for poor conditions. If you need to hit the brakes on the freeway you are tailgating and then everyone hits their brakes more and more which causes congestion. Uneeded lane changes cause congestion too. Some people are too shortsighted to see this I guess.
I piss people who tailgate me off. A short, just-the-right-amount-of-pressure-to-dip-the-nose-of-the-truck tap of the brakes, followed by sufficient gas for the moron to NOT run into me, generally gets them to back up...
Did I mention I hate tailgaters?
- d.
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sauron
Oct 20, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I was behind a guy going five miles an hour up the hill who lost traction and started sliding backward. He managed to get himself cocked at an angle before he stopped. OK off topic, but I gotta relate this one. On Sept. 24 this year I was heading up Old Priest Grade (a VERY steep windy shortcut with big steep drop offs) on the way to Yosemite, almost to the top I see a bunch of cars stopped.
Is that the shortcut from Tuolumne City to the park? With the bridge at the bottom of the gorge?
That's an awesome road, sooo reminded me of Norway :)
- .d.
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maculated
Oct 20, 2004, 9:27 PM
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I don't think so, Sauron. It's just a steep alternative along the main road.
Truckers are silly, silly.
I heard a rumor about a trucker with rocks going up 120 from 395. He got turned around at the pass (as obviously, he shouldn't have even got up there) and his brakes failed and pancaked into the cliffs along Tioga pass. Rumor only, though.
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iltripp
Oct 20, 2004, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: what do people from NC know about snow.
I think this has been said, but STFU! What do I not know about snow, moron? Name one thing wrong with what I posted.
For your information, it does snow around here. Not all the time, but in the mountains it's pretty common. To top it off, snow is rare enough that:
1) lots of people don't know how to drive in it.
2) cities are poorly equipped to deal with clearing roads
3) no one has chains
The net effect is that when it does snow, there are plenty of added dangers to combine with our wet, slippery snow and narrow mountain roads.
Oh, and for future reference, try to know something before you open your mouth again.
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maculated
Oct 20, 2004, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: But Minnesotans don't know nothing about MOUNTAIN driving in the snow, and sharing the road with people who live in places where it NEVER snows.
NOW you tell me. I let one drive my car in 4 inches of fresh Tuolumne snow in July. We could have DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIED!!!!
PS. My Subaru makes me cool, no matter what you say. That's why I bought it.
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sickbird
Oct 20, 2004, 9:46 PM
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Here's a few reasons I get pissed at the Bay Area folks here in the mountains:
1. Dont middle road drive. I hate it when a three lane interstate becomes a two lane or one lane road because people can't figure out where their lane is.
2. Pull all the way off the road to install or take off chains. Just this morning on the way to work trucks were blocking both lanes of 80 taking off chains. I'm not sure how they thought this was ok to do.
3. Subarus suck for those who live in the snow. Don't get me wrong, I have a super cute 2002 Outback Sport-but I can't even count the times I've been high centered, or stuck at my house because the road hasn't been plowed yet and I know I dont have the clearance to get down the road. Yep, experience has taught me not to have faith in my subi.
4. Drive safe and if it's snowing, stay in the Bay!
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glowering
Oct 20, 2004, 9:47 PM
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Cool QT VR panorama of old priest.
http://virtualguidebooks.com/CentralCalif/MotherLode/Moccasin/OldPriestGrade.html
This doesn't even begin to show how steep and hairy (and fun to drive) it is though.
You can see the LOOOONGG new alternate road in the background.
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davidji
Oct 20, 2004, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: He had a full truck (of gasoline!) and didn't have enough torque to get over the top. He says "I can back up if you stand behind me and guide me". YEAH RIGHT! I told him he needs professional help. He's going to kill himself if he tries to back down this. Anyone who's seen old priest can imagine this nightmare scenario.
Fortunately only one of those cars was mine.
OPG is one of the reasons I prefer to drive a stick-shift to the valley. But when I had my clutch changed recently at 19k miles (under a TSB, which is similar to a recall), the flywheel had "hot spots" (discoloration) and had lots of small surface cracks. The only thing stressful I've put it through was driving down that hill a few times, alternating between 1st and 2nd gear.
Maybe it's time to upgrade the brakes (DOT 5.1 fluid, aftermarket pads, slotted rotors), and go brakes-only down that road. Or rely more on the existing brakes, and upgrade 'em if I damage pads or rotors.
I guess this belongs in a new thread: Driving tips on steep mountain roads.
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plund
Oct 20, 2004, 10:12 PM
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Okay, I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm redundant...and dingus, here's ONE Minnesotan who HAS driven in mountain snow (lived in 'rado for three years).
Rule #1 - SLOW THE F DOWN
#2 - INCREASE FOLLOWING DISTANCE
#3 - LEAVE EARLY (don't underestimate the dumas factor)
#4 - LOOK DOWN THE ROAD (anticipate)
#5 - GENTLE STEERING / BRAKING (no jerky!)
#6 - COMPLETELY SWEEP (snow) / DEICE (scrape) ALL WINDOWS
#7 - BLAST THE DEFROST, KEEP IT BLASTING
These are in no particular order; surprisingly enough, most of them apply to fair weather driving as well! Good luck, all.....
PS - hey mac, was it Lee who nearly heart-attacked you in July? I'd be willing to flip him some of the biz if so...
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imnotclever
Oct 21, 2004, 1:35 PM
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Neutral. When you start to slide kick the engine in neutral (N). This helps a lot.
Many of you mentioned the defroster. When the snow is light and dry, it is many times better to never turn on the defrost; it’s better to keep your windshield cold. The snow will simply fly over the windshield and not stick or melt, any accumulation can be easily wiped off. If you get condensation on the inside blow it off with the defrost on cold. Once you heat up the windshield you are forced to melt every bit of snow that lands on the thing and you start this cycle of melting snow in the middle of the windshield and water freezing on the edge. The ice created on the edge can be problematic, especially when the ice starts to stick to the wiper. Give this a try some time to check.
Now what everybody here has missed: winter driving fun. Here is what you need: a buddy with a Front wheel drive car that has the parking brake near the arm rest. You also need the roads to be a little slippery. These components are essential. So here is what you do. Your buddy is making his way into the intersection to make a turn (left turn is best because your buddy won’t be looking at you and seeing your Shiite eating grin). Right after he turns the wheel you swoop down and grab that parking brake and yank it for all it worth, maybe yelling YEE HAW SUCKER, and begin the donuts. Now as the prankster it up to you to release the parking brake before you spin too far out of control, or get punched.
The amount of rotation is the art of this prank; your goal is to end up 180° from the intended direction. This is best because it is easy for your friend, the driver (who will get you back), to escape from, but it also forces them to change directions and turn around again, keeping in line with the general feeling of a prank. 90° less or more than this and you have jack-knifed yourself into the middle of an intersection, that is slippery remember, not good.
Intersection layout is also a factor, depending on how mean you want to be. The nicest and place where all of you noobs should practice this prank until you get the feel for it is a T intersection where you are turning from the road that ends. This is also the best spot for the most rotations. In a bigger intersection you will want to play it safer and only have your buddy do fish tails.
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glowering
Oct 21, 2004, 2:03 PM
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In reply to: I had my clutch changed recently at 19k miles (under a TSB, which is similar to a recall), the flywheel had "hot spots" (discoloration) and had lots of small surface cracks. The only thing stressful I've put it through was driving down that hill a few times, alternating between 1st and 2nd gear. Maybe it's time to upgrade the brakes (DOT 5.1 fluid, aftermarket pads, slotted rotors), and go brakes-only down that road. Or rely more on the existing brakes, and upgrade 'em if I damage pads or rotors.
I used to go thru clutches at about 40K on my Toyota truck. I though it was from all the 4 wheelin I was doing. After the 2nd one I decided it's a lot easier and cheaper to replace the brakes than the clutch. I changed my driving habits and I realized I was using the clutch to slow the vehicle down not just maintain the speed (it's a lot easier to stress your clutch from decelartion than acceleration because there's a lot more potential energy from going 60MPH than there is coming from your engine). So I started using the brakes to slow down then I'd release the clutch so there'd be no deceleration from releasing the clutch. On OPG I'll put it in 2nd and use the brakes off and on to maintain my speed (and keep the engine from winding out). On my last Toyota 4runner it got to 120K on the original clutch when I sold it.
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glowering
Oct 21, 2004, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you are trying to get moving from a stop and your wheels slip - try starting in 2nd gear - much less torque this way (you won't break any 0-60 times this way but it will get you moving). I once had to start an old 3-speed in 3rd gear to get any traction. Many automatics also allow you to do a 2nd gear start. At least for some of them, just put the auto shifter on 2.
David, thanks for the PM.
My understanding is that putting an automatic in 2 (or 1, or L- which is usally the same as 2) limits the car from shifting above that gear, not starting in that gear, but maybe it's dependant on the brand of car.
So you can put your automatic in 2 or L on a steep downhill and the engine will assist in braking the car.
I once heard how a company (maybe an import) went with something other than PRNDL and it caused a bunch of accidents. :o So now the gear positions are all standardized. Everytime I say PRNDL (prindle) it makes me want a Pringle though.
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natas
Oct 21, 2004, 6:12 PM
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people in NC do not see much snow. EXACTLY my piont. :righton:
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scuclimber
Oct 21, 2004, 6:18 PM
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I'd like to add a couple of things as an I-80ian: carry a scraper with a snowbrush (saves you from brushing the windows with your arm), carry an avy shovel if you can afford it (packs small and bites big), downshifting is not always better than breaking! For example, my parents bought a 2WD suburban before we moved up to Colfax (lived in OC before that, go figure... at least it has Positraction) and my mother was driving us back from H.S. ski practice. She was not an experienced snow driver and was we were going down a long steep grade on 80 (Yuba Gap W, for those of you who would know) and she threw it from 3rd into 2nd (it's an auto)... this caused the wheels to spin dramatically faster and throw us into a sideways slide at about 35 MPH. She slowly slowed it down and eased it into the bank... no damage. But I just wanted to say that downshifting doesn't always work. If she had slowly applied her brakes she probably would not have slid. Carry a tow strap, the several times I've been caught without one, I'd really wished I had one. Also, here's a slightly more advanced tip: if you get stuck and your wheels are spinning, apply your brakes slightly and give it some gas, sometimes this brake power is enough to correct for the inadequacies of an open differential and you might be able to free your vehicle. Good luck and stay safe.
Colin
P.S.- They have 3 feet at Donner Summit and I'm skipping out of this Godforsaken Bay Area, going home, and going snowboarding.
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natas
Oct 21, 2004, 6:21 PM
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forgot something. facking moron
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davidji
Oct 21, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: My understanding is that putting an automatic in 2 (or 1, or L- which is usally the same as 2) limits the car from shifting above that gear, not starting in that gear, but maybe it's dependant on the brand of car. So you can put your automatic in 2 or L on a steep downhill and the engine will assist in braking the car.
BTW when, at my mechanics suggestion, I downshifted an AT to give engine braking on OPG, it didn't shift the same for awhile. I didn't think it was a good idea, but he insisted...
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mikeyt23
Jan 6, 2005, 2:51 AM
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Everyone knows only Canadian's can answer this question properly...so, first you need some good sled dogs, oh...wait...American's don't have sled dogs...ok, well, I suggest practicing in a junker during winter on how to fishtail properly, because you can pull out of slides more easier if you're experienced with them, of course don't do it on a crowded highway, practice with an uninsured piece of junk car that no one wants and slide the crap out of it. Next tip, if you're going to crash, don't panic. Last winter I was driving a guy home and hit a patch of ice going around a corner. I couldn't pull out of the skid one way so was heading to two vehicles parked on the road. Instead I panicing I managed to scan the road and noticed an empty laneway just to my left. Managed to turn the tires and ended up skidding into there instead. Or...you could always just crash...
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krga20
Jan 6, 2005, 3:04 AM
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Drove to Silverton the other day to get out of Durango for awhile... Bad idea, black ice and cliffs on both sides w/o guardrails made the palms sweat a bit...
Anyway, I would like to suggest that the A**holes out there that feel the need to pass on roads like this should take it easy and enjoy the view...
Getting to the Ouray Ice Fest. is gonna be fun!
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bandycoot
Jan 6, 2005, 4:20 AM
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Dingus, why did you delete the post? I didn't read the whole thread, but I believe that I read your original post a little while back when you first wrote it and thought it was good advice.
Josh
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danpayne
Jan 6, 2005, 4:44 AM
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In reply to: DRIVE FAST - BRAKE HARD! :?
CRASH CAR!
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chalkfree
Jan 6, 2005, 5:10 AM
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1st of all to the canadian that says americans don't have sled dogs.... I realize that minnesota might be on it's way to becoming a province, but we're still a state these days and we have some very nice ALASKAN huskies down here.
Also the best advice a minnesotan (who doesn't drive in the mountains much), but does drive with n00bs alot (Residents of wisconsin will never be able to drive, never ever) can give is to relate a short story.
My friend's name is Paul, he is easily the most reckless driver I have ever encountered, a feet considering that I got an 89 plymouth acclaim up to 120 mph on the Echo Trail (a very curvy slightly paved road). I had until recently wondered why a man that could drive a 2 wheel drive truck in 3 inches of fresh wet slop at speeds of over 70 mph on a crooked road never went into the ditch. It has to do with one thing, never have I seen a car skid that wasn't in the process of slowing down, or changing direction. He never uses his brakes so slowing down is out of the question and his technique for direction changes comes from years of experience on gravel.
The point is don't use your damn brakes as a fail safe, be going a speed you're comfortable with for conering when you reach the corner. And abs is overrated, useful, but a bit of a skid isn't a bad thing panic or overconfidence is. Incidently I've seen many a vehicle in a bad accident in winter, and the only ones I've seen injuries in were in SUV's.
Again, I don't drive in the mountains and i realize brakes are more necessary there, but chains should give you a bit of an advantage.
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joshy8200
Jan 6, 2005, 6:56 AM
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In reply to: people in NC do not see much snow. EXACTLY my piont. :righton:
Yeah, while I do think that learning to drive in bad conditions in North Carolina can help you to be able to handle conditions out West the two are definitely in different leagues. They're still in the same sport, but definitely different leagues.
The NC mountains get on a GOOD year 100 inches of snow. Out West the averages are 300-400 inches.
I'm not putting down NC/East snow driving abilities, but I got to admit we're playing in the minor leagues here.
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kamloopsclimber
Jan 6, 2005, 7:57 AM
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if you have 4wd your invincible, you dont even need brakes other cars will get out of your way
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healyje
Jan 6, 2005, 9:25 AM
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As a native of Chicago now living in Oregon I'd recommend if you come through here on the interstate in a snow storm the best approach is to ease into the left hand lane; approach the driver doing 25 in front of you slowly and with great caution until you are locked bumper to bumper with them; and then step on the gas - carefully repeat the process until you have about five vehicles stacked up in front of you and then just drive normally at the speed limit for all of you...
[Don't even get me started on how they drive when it first starts raining every year...]
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