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philbox
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Sep 11, 2006, 12:58 AM
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Last Saturday at Frog Buttress a very good friend of mine Colin Carstenz who has been climbing for more than 20 years sustained a compound fracture to the ankle in a fall.
He was climbing Onlookers Omellete Left Side when he slumped onto a big bro. At this point the rope parted due to it slicing down across a very sharp edge on the crack he was climbing.
He fell about 10 metres to the deck.
During the fall he had the presence of mind to turn around and fall face first so that he could see what was coming. He knew he had to clear a ledge. As he aproached the ledge he kicked out with his leg and that appears to be what caused the compound fracture just above the ankle.
He hit the ground head first but apart from a small depression in the side of his head from one of the parts inside the helmet he got off with virtually no head injuries. He does have some rib bruising but pretty much the only injury was the compound fracture.
He is definitely one lucky boy.
The feature he was climbing is a more or less detached pillar. The left hand corner of which has an angled corner of about 100 degrees or so. The crack is an offwidth. Towards the top it is slightly overhung or at the very least is very very steep. Colin was almost at the top when he slumped on his gear. The rope went from Colins harness tie in around the corner of the crack and to his top piece of gear.
It seems that the tension in his rope coupled with the very sharp edge caused the rope to be sawed in twain. The result was that Colin was no longer attached to his safety system.
This is a fairly rare occurrence for a rope to completely part and send a climber on the big plummet.
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maldaly
Sep 11, 2006, 1:48 AM
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Thanks for the head's up Phil. Colin, I'm glad you're still with us. I'll be thinking of you and sending good enery your way during your recovery.
Mal
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2006, 1:54 AM
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Sharp rock is scary :shock: Super glad that your friend survived..
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rockguide
Sep 11, 2006, 2:22 AM
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Thanks for the reminder - people often overlook how the rope runs over edges. With the move to thinner and thinner ropes, our safety margins are getting thinner and thinner as well.
Hope your buddy recovers fully.
B
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billcoe_
Sep 11, 2006, 2:34 AM
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Your friend MUST have 8 lives left Phil, unless this was so damn spectacular he used 2 of them in this single incident. I'm sure I speak for everyone on the site, but especially the family and friends in celebrating Colins continued presence with us and amazing good fortune.
Thoughts naturally turn to the failure which almost cost him his life, so as to see if the rest of us can learn from the situation and thus life longer ourselves. Do you have any pictures?
One is left wondering if that rope had seen some prior exposure to chemicals or if it was an old rope. The one rope I had seen part under body weight over a semi-sharp edge while on rappel, I'm pretty sure had chemical damage.
http://www.uiaa.ch/...0damage%20picture%22
The link from the uiaa above describes the effect of age, and mentions only 1 (one) documented sharp edge failure in existence, but several, almost many other failures where acid or chemicals were the cause of the failure.
From Beal, the impact force, max which a new line should absorb:
"Impact Force Probably the most important single statistic on the hang tag, this figure is an accurate indication of how much force a rope is able to absorb. Since Impact Force is the maximum load transmitted to the climber and his protection, the lower this number, the better. The UIAA standard for maximum impact force, measured on the first test drop, is 12 kN (2640 lbs.) for a single rope and 8 kN (1760 lbs.) for half ropes. In the UIAA test a rope may stretch up to 45% of its total length to absorb this force."
Clearly he got nowhere near that number. How sharp the edge was would be interesting to see, but a slump... just a rest on the rope...we see harder stuff all the time and the ropes don't fail, hell I was belaying healyj just yesterday, he has a new rope - the rope that will take and pass the edge test (forget the name of it), anyway, there were 2 relatively sharp edges on blocky basalt(which can be fairly sharp) and he was freeing an 5.11C trad climb, maybe Aussie ...hmmmm, 26-27?, I forget, anyway he went up and fell. The rope hit both edges, I was looking at that area of the rope hard as he got back on, and it looked fine, not even a slight bit of fuzz where the rope was on the edges. He was @ 200" off the deck at that point, and had the rope parted, well, it wouldn't have been an ankle and it wouldn’t have been pretty. He pulled it second try, possibly not wanting to test the new rope on the edges again.
:lol: (I wussed and pulled a sling he'd left dropped down below the crux btw).
Point is, who the hell wants to even think of the possibility of the rope cutting in half? Not I for sure.
Did your friend ALWAYS use a rope bag?
Could acid have affected the rope? There is an incident posted recently on this site where a rope failed in a perfect setting in a gym. It was later chemically tested and determined that sulfuric acid was actually the culprit. The rope owner maintained he had no idea how the rope got acid on it, as he kept it in a bag. He suspects and speculates it might have touched the ground when returning to his car after climbing once.
Acid below
http://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r09.jpg
Cut below
http://www.uiaa.ch/.../images/12003r01.jpg
Here is the difference between a cut and a chemically damaged rope failure. It is noticeable. I will say that the picture of the rope which failed in the low ff gym fall was not so clear cut.
http://brvoyles.smugmug.com/photos/71067566-M.jpg
It looks a little bit of both.
Anyway, hope your friend will take the rope and pursue why it failed, and have it tested by experts. I read the Mammut literature a month ago on the last rope I got and was shocked to see that they recommended it be retired (based on my moderate climbing days) after 1 year! I thought at the time they were just trying to sell new ropes and cover their asses, but now I’m not so sure.
-Anyway-
Really really.....REALLY glad your buddy is OK!!!!!!!!! :!:
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majid_sabet
Sep 11, 2006, 2:43 AM
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Phil
Was he leading or rappelling
Rope age and size
Any photo from helmet
Any photo from what he was climbing
mucho thanko
ps
Early this year , I posted one case when a lady climber fell in the similar situation, but she did not make it.
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billcoe_
Sep 11, 2006, 2:44 AM
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Speaking for Malcom, did anyone else notice that the big bro held just fine in this story?
:lol:
Majid, correct sequence: read the story and then post.
Read----------->Post
Read----------->Post
Read----------->Post :lol:
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philbox
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Sep 11, 2006, 3:31 AM
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In reply to: Majid, correct sequence: read the story and then post. Read----------->Post Read----------->Post Read----------->Post :lol:
I'll also add,
Read------------>Post.
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philbox
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Sep 11, 2006, 3:38 AM
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I'm firmly convinced that this is definitely a case of a sharp edge cutting the rope and nothing whatsoever to do with chemical damage.
The vertical edge of the crack was quite sharp. The rope ran around the vertical edge. As climber slumped onto piece rope stretch came into play such that a single point on the rope was subject to the rock sawing away at it.
Think of it this way, if you sawed a rope under tension along a serrated knife edge how long do you think it would last. In other words a single point on the rope was sawedalong that knife it would most definitely part.
This I believe was the mechanism at play in this incident.
I shall find out more on how deep the big bro was placed as well, I think that is germaine to the discussion. If it was quite shallow then there would be less ability for the rope to run across that sharp edge. The sling on the bro would ensure that the rope was completely outside the crack.
I shall also try to recreate the circumstances in the coming weeks and drop a few pics in here as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2006, 2:20 PM
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Don't confuse the gym climbing incident or the gunks rapping incident with thiss one. When a rope is weighted it cuts like butter over a sharp edge :shock: that is something that the leader must pay attention to!! especialy think about what would happen if your second falls. i have set directional anchors to ensure that my seconds rope would not cut while following a roof with a razor sharp edge, i also put sport vtape over an edge but was not suer if it would stay on. duct tape would have been the tickit. sometimes there isn't much you can do other than not fall :shock:
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billcoe_
Sep 11, 2006, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: Don't confuse the gym climbing incident or the gunks rapping incident with thiss one. When a rope is weighted it cuts like butter over a sharp edge :shock: that is something that the leader must pay attention to!! especialy think about what would happen if your second falls. i have set directional anchors to ensure that my seconds rope would not cut while following a roof with a razor sharp edge, i also put sport vtape over an edge but was not suer if it would stay on. duct tape would have been the tickit. sometimes there isn't much you can do other than not fall :shock:
Well, the area I tend to climb at more than others does have some real sharp edges. In 33 years I've heard of 2 ropes coreing (the outter sheath totally busts in 1/2 and leaves many feet of white core showing), both times it was due to fairly sizeable leader falls with the rope running over sharp edges and in neither case did the rope break, in one case the guy finished the pitch with 10 feet of white core showing in the middle.
Both ropes stayed intact after sizable leader falls, not leader slumps. So thats why I find it so ....different....not saying it wouldn't happen, but to me it's suspicious as hell.
Bit scary too I guess.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 11, 2006, 3:32 PM
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One of our local NH hardmen ws drilling from a hook. hook popped and the rope cut on an edge, he went 70ft and landed in brush on verry steep slope, tumbled and survived. Another local woman lost her brother about 5 years ago in Alaska. He was working a new rt with a new 10.5mm rope. short hang, sharp rock, cut rope and dead. It can and does happen! I have had 3 core shots from seconds falling on my rope. If you are not paronoid about sharp edges you should be 8^)
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krusher4
Sep 11, 2006, 3:35 PM
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It's good to hear he was not hurt more, good luck to a quick recovery.
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kachoong
Sep 11, 2006, 3:38 PM
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Holy crap, Phil!! :shock: Colin is very fortunate not to come out of that worse. How long was it from when he slumped until he fell? Immediately? 2 seconds.... 5 seconds?
Send Colin my regards and wish him a speedy recovery!
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cracklover
Sep 11, 2006, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: Both ropes stayed intact after sizable leader falls, not leader slumps. So thats why I find it so ....different....not saying it wouldn't happen, but to me it's suspicious as hell. Bit scary too I guess.
I'm sorry. Yes, it is scary. Don't let emotion blind you to the truth, though.
What matters most is the sharpness of the rock, the angle at which the rope is dragged across it, and whether the rock scrapes along the rope, or across the rope. The amount of force needed to cut a rope is tiny, less than bodyweight for a really sharp edge.
Double ropes are a good insurance policy in such places. Not just because of the security of having a second rope, but because you can often arrange your ropes without any sharp bends in them (without a sharp bend around an edge, things are much better), and because you simply have far more control over where your ropes run, without having to compromise about the protection options. So you're less likely to have even one rope run over an edge.
Just food for thought.
Phil, very glad to hear it didn't come out worse. That's scary stuff! Hope your friend heals quickly and completely.
GO
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 11, 2006, 4:19 PM
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Phil, you don't mention the diameter (or better yet, mass) of the rope involved. Was this a trick lightweight or a burly old school rope? Pity the UIAA can't come up with a reliable edge test...someday. The best rope companies tell you the percentage of material in the sheath, which may be give a more reliable indication of cut resistance than diameter or even mass.
Also, could the pro on that route be slung to avoid the edge? I've never believed duct tape would make any difference, though some aid climbers still try it. Was the belayer using a grigri or v-notch device or something more dynamic?
Hope the healing goes well!
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caughtinside
Sep 11, 2006, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: Phil, you don't mention the diameter (or better yet, mass) of the rope involved.
I was curious about this myself.
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nnowinowski
Sep 11, 2006, 5:51 PM
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duct tape makes a big difference. Put three pieces on a knife and then try to cut a rope with it. A lot of times this is a matter of planning as you lead the pitch and rock type --> I had a horrifying experience on astroman as I realized I had put gear about 1 foot to the left and right of a sharp edge on the Boulder Problem ___^___ like this. Granite can get way sharp.
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philbox
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Sep 11, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Phil, you don't mention the diameter (or better yet, mass) of the rope involved. I was curious about this myself.
Colin usually climbs on burly old school ropes. I shall get as many facts as are asked for together and bring them back here.
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healyje
Sep 12, 2006, 5:09 AM
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The word "slump" seems a bit ambiguous in this context. Do you mean he momentarily weighted the rope and it cut in that instance of weighting? Or do you mean he decided to rest and after a bit of resting the rope parted? Moving much at all while resting on a piece (or bolt) could definitely definitely create a sawing action on the rope. An immediate failure on first just weighting the rope would imply more of a sharp cut.
[ Bill, the rope I use out there is a Mammut Supersafe which has both a slightly thicker sheath and is teflon coated. Glad you were watching me good...]
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curt
Sep 12, 2006, 5:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't confuse the gym climbing incident or the gunks rapping incident with thiss one. When a rope is weighted it cuts like butter over a sharp edge :shock: that is something that the leader must pay attention to!! especialy think about what would happen if your second falls. i have set directional anchors to ensure that my seconds rope would not cut while following a roof with a razor sharp edge, i also put sport vtape over an edge but was not suer if it would stay on. duct tape would have been the tickit. sometimes there isn't much you can do other than not fall :shock: Well, the area I tend to climb at more than others does have some real sharp edges. In 33 years I've heard of 2 ropes coreing (the outter sheath totally busts in 1/2 and leaves many feet of white core showing), both times it was due to fairly sizeable leader falls with the rope running over sharp edges and in neither case did the rope break, in one case the guy finished the pitch with 10 feet of white core showing in the middle. Both ropes stayed intact after sizable leader falls, not leader slumps. So thats why I find it so ....different....not saying it wouldn't happen, but to me it's suspicious as hell. Bit scary too I guess.
None the less, tradmanclimbs is correct. Ropes cut quite easily when weighted over a sharp edge--and that type of rope failure happens far more often than a rope parting because of chemical exposure.
Curt
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overlord
Sep 12, 2006, 7:06 AM
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ill second doubles in this case.
and im really glad he 'only' got a fracture. thats really lucky. now i know why im paranoid about my rope getting behing sharp flakes and stuff like that.
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kachoong
Sep 12, 2006, 1:33 PM
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In reply to: ill second doubles in this case. and im really glad he 'only' got a fracture. thats really lucky. now i know why im paranoid about my rope getting behing sharp flakes and stuff like that.
It seems that Colin gained a couple of other injuries, unfortunately. An account from his climbing partner Jo says that "Apart from the ankle, he has a fractured sternum, and some damage to T9, 10, 11 vertebrae. The docs don't seem too worried about these at this stage though."
He's still a lucky bugger!
My interpretation of how he "slumped" onto the rope, from my reading of the info in the thread on Qurank, was that he downclimbed to his gear, then in the process of slumping onto his pro, the rope I guess straightened taught. If the rope was loose and hanging across the edge, when the rope became taught it sawed in an upward motion until it was straight. This was enough to cut the rope on the edge.
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boadman
Sep 12, 2006, 2:42 PM
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I glad that he's ok, I had a good time climbing with him in thailand. After all the sketchy routes he's done, it seems ironic that he'd get hurt hanging on solid pro.
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