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tristero
Nov 21, 2001, 12:07 AM
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Some V9 climbers have pretty sloppy, dynamic style...but they scend V9's and up.
And some V3 climbers have really strong, static movements...but they don't scend many V4's and up.
I notice I have more awe for the slower, static boulderers and climbers. What do you think?
Is scending more important than style?
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compclimber
Nov 21, 2001, 12:19 AM
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Its sending with the most stlye possible that is important. Just becuase you can thrutch your way up a V-9 doesnt mean you are a good climber. I have more respect for the guys who have honed their technique and can walk a problem making it look easy than I do for someone who can dyno their way up a V-9. But I have the most respect for the rare birds that can do V-9s and make them look easy, I my self have been sandbagged into trying them after I saw someone on it and figured it "easy"
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saltspringer
Nov 21, 2001, 2:06 AM
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style's more important as far as I'm concerned: I've seen people "fall up" a climb & claim an ascent...whatever. To climb a route or a problem in good style means that, for the most part, you've mastered it & you're not just relying on luck. I feel much better when I'm climing fluidly and I'm not rushed or panicked and I actually have time to enjoy the climbing.
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rrrADAM
Nov 21, 2001, 2:07 AM
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I guess that would depend on what your priorities are...
If you chase #'s, then anyway you can get up.
If you want to climb gracefully with little effort, then style.
~Adam
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wachy
Nov 21, 2001, 2:49 AM
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I think style is more important, but it's that you develop YOUR style. If you have a style that fits you, you will be able to get up those V9s. It's a knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses, and climbing in a way that accomodates that. A dynamic style is very good technique for people with less stamina but more power. The important thing is that you're able to consistantly scend problems without falling off.
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metoliusmunchkin
Nov 22, 2001, 1:43 AM
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Climbing society is now becoming more and more based on one's abilities to climb higher grades, rather than their ability to be an all around climber. Many climbers today have a recognition, solely for their style, while most others, solely for their ability to sketchily climb high grades. Sharma is recognised for his ability to climb high grades while he is not so much recognised for his style (a rather reckless one at that - well sometimes - as a new term in the climbing dictionary, one describes a Sarma Holds as when your feet do not hit a hold, or use one for quite a period of time). Recently, Climbig magazine stated that Sharma barely won a certain tournament (you must excuse me, I am far too tired to remember which one it was, my appologies) because of his reckless movements and style, yet, he still won.
I feel that mostly, this is considered solely to bouldering, because of the fact that, since bouldering is a much smaller 'route', you can send problems without too much need for style. Whereas with a very hard route (because of its length) you could not send it, without a considerable amount of style and technique.
In the gym (my gym), where bouldering seems to be the height of the successes, I see each of these different sides of climbing. Those who have beautiful style, yet lack the ability to climb hard, and of course, those that lack the ability to form grace, yet still manage to claw their way up a sick problem. What I look for mostly, while observing boulderers, better than myself, are a mixture of these two characteristics. I observe/pay more attention to those who have the ability to climb hard problems (for the sheer strength that it would take to actually send the problem) and for their technique and grace, for the ability to make long/slow moves and stick them.
I must admit, the climbers that impress me the most, are, like I said, the mixture of the two characteristics, strong/graceful. Both add up to great technique.
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climber1
Dec 1, 2001, 8:07 AM
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IMO style is more important than sending hard problems
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colin
Dec 1, 2001, 8:32 PM
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A combination of the two is needed. I have no interest in watching someone with perfect style that can't do things requiring power. And no interest in someone who can't do a finess boulder problem. My style is just powerful style. I do a lot of dynamic movement. But I keep it smooth and flowing, making it look like I'm much better than I am. The best example I can think of is how someone heel hooks. I heel hook in a rolling type motion. Committing my whole body to that move. While my partner, who is much more flexible, just tosses his heel up keeping one foot in the hold.
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passthepitonspete
Dec 15, 2001, 8:49 PM
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Nicely written, Pat.
I think it is important for you-all to know that what you are talking about here is not really "style".
In climbing, the word "ethics" generally refers to the permanence of your damage to the rock. For instance, in certain situations defined here, I believe bolting is cheating and is indicative of cowardice.
"Style" generally refers to how you climb the rock, for instance did you top-rope it, on-sight it, or free solo it. The quality of your style is often directly proportional to how difficult you make the ascent for yourself. Rock climbing and mountaineering are esoteric sports where difficulty is pursued for its own sake. For instance it is usually considered better style to climb a route in the winter because it is harder, or to climb the route without falling or pre-inspecting it, because this is harder.
If you would like to see a picture of the Best Possible Style in which an ascent can possibly be made, please click here to read about possibly the most ethically and stylistically pure ascent ever made. (Please read the post starting about a third of the way down the page and then follow the link to the photo. Please follow the instructions so you "get" the gag!)
Even in the gym, style can count. It is better to on-sight a route and flash it than to fall off it or
rest on the rope.
For instance, it is not considered good style to pull on 'draws halfway up a 5.8 in the gym as Certain Types of People have actually been witnessed doing. (This is not a blind accusation.) You can read about it at the top of the brown post about a quarter of the way down the page linked above.
It is, however, considered stylistically OK to pull on slings while soloing dangerous A4+ pitches where you COULD DIE if you blow it or while you are leading an A5 Death Pitch where you WILL DIE if you blow it, or at least where "If you fall from this pitch....you'll break every bone in your body...", which would likely have the same net effect anyway.
I believe what you are talking about here is not "STYLE" but rather "FORM" or "TECHNIQUE," (or perhaps some other term I'm missing) whereby a climber is measured qualitatively by his or her degree of flailing.
As a climber who has actually been witnessed FLAILING on numerous occasions in the gym, (and also on the rock, incidentally) I don't give a tinker's damn about how bad you look when you get up, as long as you just GET UP the thing in GOOD STYLE.
For instance,
IF you can flail your way up a trad 5.11, sweating, cursing, swearing, with feet skating and fingers slipping like an iguana on a glass wall as you desperately try to stick in a cam or wire before you fall to a certain death on the ledge below (or at least you get the livin' bejeepers banged out of you) but you somehow hang in there despite the skepticism of your onlookers because you look like the World's Biggest Gumby Who Pulls On Slings in the Gym and you don't blow it by grabbing a sling or resting on the rope or falling off, and you somehow roll over onto the summit while gasping like a fish with your LAST DYING BREATH because you are so PUMPED WITH ADRENALINE that you are certain you are going to PUKE,
THEN I would submit to you it doesn't matter a
RAT'S ASS
whether you are a consumate flailer or not.
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graniteboy
Dec 16, 2001, 3:58 AM
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THE REAAL MEAT OF THE MATTER: I say that the reason for having smooth form is to keep you alive in desperate situations. Slapping and jumping and skating may get U up something U would not otherwise be able to do, which is OK. BUT: Throwing and skating feet do not go well with freesoloing, frinstance. So stay alive; learn to move smoothly.
PS: Ok, pete, that was cute and all, but your winternekkidsoloclimber wuz at LOW ELEVATION. there is vegetation about. I submit that the real thing in stylistic purity is to be on an 8K peak. Naked. Solo. Winter. Onsite. Having never even heard of the range you're climbing in B4. In fact, having never CLIMBED PERIOD.
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talons05
Dec 16, 2001, 5:18 AM
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If you climb simply for performance, and not style, then you are chasing numbers. Climbing is more than that. It is the feeling you get from being next to the rock. Sometimes, it's pain - and your ability to deal with it. Climbing smoothly requires more strength, MUCH more endurance, and unbelievable mind control. This is what it's all about. Strive to climb beautifully, then get on to climb hard.
AW
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tristero
Dec 17, 2001, 1:31 PM
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ptpp, you say - ""Style" generally refers to how you climb the rock, for instance did you top-rope it, on-sight it, or free solo it."
Style does mean, according to Webster, - 1. the manner of doing something. AND 3. elegance or distinction.
So I'll kindly disagree with your generalization.
This is a question of Values - and an important one not only for Rockclimbing Culture, but World Culture as well. Is it greater to simply accomplish something or is it greater to do so with distinction....(simply accomplishing something that many others cannot is no basis for distinction in this, or any, respect either ).
Metolius Munchkin understands what I'm getting at - We have great respect for those who accomplish great routes, but can they do it twice, and as nice? And how many self-proclaimed V8 climbers have I met that continually fall off V4's, due to a lack of technique, which shows in their style. (just imagine if this person valued #'s more than respecting their style and started to free solo some high ball that they thought they weren't ready for - possibly ending in serious injury.)
I hope many of my climbing peers will agree that in life one should not often compromise style simply to scend.
Peace,
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beyond_gravity
Jan 14, 2002, 11:38 PM
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What are you talking about? Looked all pumped and looking the the route is really hard, doing lots of dynos with your feet consintly flying off the rock, thats extreame style because it looks so cool!
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jt512
Jan 19, 2002, 3:44 AM
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Since when is dynamic climbing considered poor style? I thought that that kind of thinking disappeared in the '70s.
-Jay
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natec
Jan 19, 2002, 8:49 AM
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"Just send it" as they say.
Form counts for something but not everything. When I am training (bouldering), I don't consider the problem done until I have sent it at least twice or until I feel that I have it really wired. If it doesn't look pretty, but it goes for me repeatedly, then the form doesn't necessarily matter. It's the fact that I know that when I am on a climb, I will be able to work my way through a similar situation.
I personally feel that it seems superficial to worry about your form or "style" when you are climbing. Some people, myself included, just aren't the pretty and graceful type.
Being 5'8" with quite a belly sometimes makes moving with good form, "style" near impossible, but I can still do the moves. It doesn't matter if it looks pretty, its about control and working through a sequence.
Chris Sharma might not look pretty but he is in control.
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jcs
Jan 19, 2002, 1:44 PM
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OK- best case is to do a climb and look really beautiful and controlled and stylie. Failing that, Id rather just get up the climb however I can. Its not like Im going to get to the crux and say "well, I dont think I can look pretty on this part, so could you please just let me down?"
No way! I'm going to try it, and who cares how terrible I look? There will be plenty of time to perfect the move later- besides, how many climbs are there that you flailed and thrashed your way up a year ago but can climb smoothly today? Lots, I bet.
Not sure who else feels this way- but I equate style with efficiency. It would be sort of silly to do a particular climb and purposely make it harder for yourself. Though static movement is often most efficient, I can think of a few climbs right now where dyno's are more efficient- and more stylie.
Sharma, for example, has good technique- There is no such thing as a 5.14 climber with bad technique! He uses his momentum really well. He may not believe in the "three points of contact at all times" rule, but whatever, right? And like a few other people have said, one persons style (efficiency) is not anothers- like Katie Brown... if she turned sideways you couldnt see her. She can do everything statically...may not even have the muscle strgth to do a Sharma dyno. I have to do things differently. So does Sharma, and Dave Graham, and Lynn Hill (short...), and John Dunn (ummm... big boned?). Those are my thoughts anyway. Hope that everyone is well and climbing lots!
JCS
[ This Message was edited by: jcs on 2002-01-19 05:50 ]
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jcs
Jan 19, 2002, 1:44 PM
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[ This Message was edited by: jcs on 2002-01-19 05:46 ]
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daisuke
Jan 19, 2002, 2:42 PM
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the biggest compliment a climber can get is "you make it look easy", style is more important than the send, now if you can send a tough route with dynos and all in style then cheers to you, style counts tho!
D
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greatgarbanzo
Jan 19, 2002, 4:34 PM
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I think that style is everything... if i do the problem dragging my knees around i will re do it until i get the "clean" way...
For aid, and working routes i agree with pete... dont give a damn...
but my redpoint has to be stilish...
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climbchick
Jan 20, 2002, 4:01 AM
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Well, I do my fair share of butt-holds, knee smears and rock-hugging if that's what it takes to get to the top of something, but I do admire grace and style & that's what I aspire to. I'm always happy to send a route, no matter how I did it, but I'm happiER if I did it nicely.
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boretribe
Jan 20, 2002, 7:10 AM
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I don't see how a well executed dynamic move is considered poor style. Maybe the original poster has only seen people throwing those desperate-thrash-lunges in a last chance effort to stay on the rock. Although I have had my share of both, I am not satisfied with the latter and will rework the problem until I feel that I have sent it in a smooth and controlled manner. Sending a route/problem in a style that I consider fluid and controlled is much more important to me than increasing my grade level. Although difficult at times, I follow these basic rules:
1. No hangdogging - lower after each fall and start from the beginning. Not only will you increase your strength and stamina but by the time you red point you will have the route so wired you can do it smoothly.
2. Boulder alone as often as possible - No distractions - you can take as long as you need to work on a problem without embarassment or feeling rushed.
3. Don't use a guide book just find a route/problem that looks fun and interesting and work it.(not intended as advice for multipitch trad routes)
4. Once you send the route/problem don't look it up in the guide book - Your working on your climbing not your ego.
Bouldering genius Jim Holloway once said 'I wonder what problems people would actually climb if we removed all the grades.' Think of this next time you look at a route. Does it look fun or do you just want to put a check next to it in your guide book.
[ This Message was edited by: boretribe on 2002-01-19 23:12 ]
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sugarbaby
Jan 20, 2002, 7:38 AM
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I think style is key. what good is it if you have to "fall up" the route?
now there's nothing wrong with dino-ing your way up a climb that is a serious challenge for you. but having style shows that you have mastered that level and gives evidence of your climbing ability. someone who looks terrible going up a V-7 earns less respect from me than someone who looks great and makes a V-5 look easy.
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scrappy
Jan 21, 2002, 2:06 AM
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you guys are really making it sound easy to "fall up a route". maybee i should start trying this. i think having fun is way more important than both sending and style. ive had a lot of fun gettin thrown around on a route that ive sent and ive had a lot of fun falling just below the chains after ive tiptoed, flagged, drop kneed, and took my time on a route. the point is both don't mean a thing if you are really having a good time.
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crackwhore
Jan 22, 2002, 1:43 AM
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is this a boulderers forum?
why all the shout about V grades???
seems to me bouldering at any grade is the highest in "style".
... form is another matter ...
any dissention about peters' V3 ascent of Astroman ???
as ptppete says bolting to finish a route is the lowest form of style, while without saying it, free solo is definitely the best in style.
in the words of Frank LLoyd Wright...
"Form follows function"
Yabbo is dead...
Croft is alive and well...
a quiet mind and body in harmony.
in the words of rocmonkey
BREATHE STONE
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crackwhore
Jan 22, 2002, 1:44 AM
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Q: how do you get a 9.00 q-rating with only 1 post???
[ This Message was edited by: crackwhore on 2002-01-21 17:52 ]
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