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arjunrattan
Apr 13, 2005, 1:21 AM
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hi everyone,
ok well i admit it..i made a terrible mistake while belaying a lead climber..
heres wat happened..i have just started lead climbing(though i had lead about a year and a half back..but that was really easy stuff and no one realy pumped out and fell)...
i was at the gym and belaying a climber weighing in at 170( im 140). it was a pretty hard route( like wasnt rated but id say like 5.11b/c) i have just lead climbed like 2 times this season..like i passed the belay test at the gym..but on this particular climb wen the climber was on the 3rd clip...i squeezed the gri gri to pay out slack..just as he was clipping he fell..without warning..i definitely should have caught him but i didnt...and he kinda fell to the ground..cause i dint stop squeezing the cam(to pay out slack) and start to pull in slack quick enough
i am gratefull that he was ok ..nothing happened since it was just 2 clips high and it was in the gym..however i realise that this is a verrry serios errror on my part(it has never happened before)..and it has definitely made me more aware of the risk in lead climbing..
ive had no problem leading and belaying...tho i havent realy had much experience catching unexpected ones(specially this one like wen the climber falls just wen hes asking for slack to make a clip)...
but i also realise the only way to get experience catching falls is by belaying a leader and catching falls...
I just wanted other ppl's take on this..i realise the mistake was completely mine...
thanks!
peace,
arjun
p.s. i have been toproping for about 1 year and climb 5.11a/b on top rope and lead 5.10b this season...
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scottquig
Apr 13, 2005, 1:25 AM
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Sounds like you need to stop belaying with a grigri. I suppose your gym makes you...
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arjunrattan
Apr 13, 2005, 1:31 AM
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yea wen i had lead climbed earlier..i had used an atc..i found that wayy less complicated..as your brake hand never comes off the rope..like with the gri gri wen you need to pay out slack quick..you have to relax your brake hand grip on the rope to squeeze down...
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rightarmbad
Apr 13, 2005, 1:32 AM
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I don't like gri gri's for that very reason. When somebody panics they usually squeeze harder, not let go.
I thought that you could pay out slack without squeezing the trigger though. Just push the tail into the device at the same time as you pull the climbers rope out. I might be wrong, as the only time I have used them is in a gym top roping situation. Don't like em really. Give me a standard device anytime.
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curt
Apr 13, 2005, 1:34 AM
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The real key is to fully understand exactly how to properly belay with whatever belay method and/or device you are using. Thankfully, it sounds like there was no real harm done here--and I bet you will be a much more careful belayer in the future because of this incident.
Curt
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sinshan
Apr 13, 2005, 1:37 AM
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If the gym makes people belay with a grigri, then this seems to me to be a perfect example of why they shouldn't make people belay with a gri gri.
I lead-belayed with a gri gri all of 5 times before I realized it was excessively cumbersome, and dangerous for the reason described. When I did lead belay with it, I'd make sure to pay rope out in a way that didn't engage the auto-block, and without holding down the cam. This can be done, but it's not very efficient. At least you're not holding the auto block open though.
Easiest answer - - don't lead belay with a damn gri gri.
Also - - glad to hear the person who took the fall is alright. But do you think they'll climb with you again?? Seems to me it'd be a blow to both of you, for very different reasons.
good luck and be safe - -
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theishofoz
Apr 13, 2005, 1:40 AM
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ok
for belaying with a grigri, i have found the perfect balance
i do not squeze the cam, but i gently hold it so that it wont cam while paying out slack, but locks up in a fall. i was belaying not too long ago (maybe a week) and while feeding out slack he ( 40 lb difference) fell and my grigri caught without hesitation. you need it to be almost instinctal to slide the hand off of the camming mechanism and onto the brake hand. it will help a lot.
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rightarmbad
Apr 13, 2005, 2:00 AM
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I'd still much rather a normal belay device. As long as the belayer does not let go of the brake hand, you have a good chance. Any panic would only make them grab harder.
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barc
Apr 13, 2005, 2:24 AM
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Gri - Gri are awesome. Why? Because of how fast you pay out slack and get it back.
Elliott
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scottquig
Apr 13, 2005, 2:31 AM
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Also, a grigri can't give a dynamic belay, which is something a leader usually appreciates when they take a fall.
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arjunrattan
Apr 13, 2005, 2:56 AM
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thanks for the useful insight guys,
well theres no avoiding using a gri gri..since my gym requires it and i do climb at the gym alot..
anyhow im gonna stick to paying out slack withouht interfereing with the cam...since sudden falls wont cause me to panic and squeaze the cam harder...and will ensure that my brake hand is always on the rope...
in fact i was reading up on the gri gri...and petzl says squeezing on the cam to pay out slack is not recomended...
anyway yea it kinda sucks wen something like this happens..cause your belaying reputation becomes kinda sketchy..but ohh well...its definitely taught me an important lesson(thankfully my climber wasnt hurt)..
thanks again!
peace
arjun
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vawwyakr
Apr 13, 2005, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: I don't like gri gri's for that very reason. When somebody panics they usually squeeze harder, not let go. I thought that you could pay out slack without squeezing the trigger though. Just push the tail into the device at the same time as you pull the climbers rope out. I might be wrong, as the only time I have used them is in a gym top roping situation. Don't like em really. Give me a standard device anytime. |
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saxfiend
Apr 13, 2005, 4:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I thought that you could pay out slack without squeezing the trigger though. Just push the tail into the device at the same time as you pull the climbers rope out. This is exactly what you need to do (push the brake side rope into the device while pulling with the top hand. This will play out rope without the need to push down on the trigger at all and your break hand never leaves the rope. It takes a little practice to get used to but once you do it's the only way you should ever belay a leader with a gri-gri
As long as you're not trying to feed out rope too fast, the grigri won't lock up. So the key would be to anticipate your climber's next move and be ready to give slack without having to rush. As many here have said before, there's nothing wrong with a grigri as long as you're using it correctly.
Good luck!
JL
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mr8615
Apr 13, 2005, 5:14 AM
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There can be no rule with what device to belay with. It's stupid to say 'don't belay with a grigri' it should be, 'have confidence in whatever method you choose to use'. I lead belay with a grigri often, indoors, outdoors, trad and sport, and I don't hesitate to hold the cam wide open whenever I need to yard out slack for a clip. If you are confident in your abilities and are paying close attention to what you're doing, you shouldn't have a problem. Engage yourself in what you're trying to do, belaying isn't difficult but it is something you should be mentally active and attentive while doing. If you're doing it with a grigri, there is no option to 'panic' and hold the cam open, you should be paying attention and as soon as a fall occurs you should lock off just like with an atc. If you drop someone on an atc, would it be excusable if you just said you 'panicked' and let go with your brake hand? You can't blame a device for dropping someone, you can only blame the person who misused the device, whatever it is.
Mark
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dsqrd
Apr 13, 2005, 5:22 AM
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gri-gri's don't kill people... :?
people kill people.... 8^)
fer crissakes peoples - he f'ed up. he took the blame. (good for you by the way) you know what you did wrong. i'm betting you won't do it again.
why does everyone else want to blame the freaking device. choose to either learn how to use it or don't use it at all. and as for the dynamic belay - i outweigh my climbing partner by 40 lbs... EVERY belay gets to be dynamic for me :P
anybody know where the 'climbing is a dangerous activity... ' sign is? apparently it went missing...
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phaedrus
Apr 13, 2005, 4:46 PM
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phaedrus moved this thread from General to Injuries & Accidents.
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hoppinbig
Apr 13, 2005, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: anyhow im gonna stick to paying out slack withouht interfereing with the cam...since sudden falls wont cause me to panic and squeaze the cam harder...and will ensure that my brake hand is always on the rope...
Sorry dude - wrong solution. This method of feeding out slack might work for a predictable slow clip by your partner... however a quick, desperate clip will just cause your device to lock up...
To be honest - its not the grigri's fault - you simply were not paying attention... you should only hold down the cam for a split second while you are paying out rope - as soon as you finished feeding rope let go of the cam... also whenever your partner falls look down at your hand - if it hasn't moved off the device and onto the rope you aren't belaying properly. I climb in the same gym as you - I'd highly recommending taking the lead course at the Oasis with Court - he's one of the best I've seen to teach safe belay techniques that will stay with you through out your entire climbing career... I give you credit for coming out and recognizing err in your ways - now do something about it.
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gochubug
Apr 13, 2005, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: well theres no avoiding using a gri gri..since my gym requires it and i do climb at the gym alot..
They require you to lead comfortably at 5.10b in order to even test for a leader card. But at least you can use whatever device you are comfortable with!
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shakylegs
Apr 13, 2005, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: Also, a grigri can't give a dynamic belay, which is something a leader usually appreciates when they take a fall.
Gri gris don't give a dynamic belay. Then again, neither do ATC's , Trangos, 8s, etc. Belayers give dynamic belays.
And a good belayer will give a proper dynamic belay using any device.
A lot of misinformation going on here about how to use the grigri: scary. Where's jt512 when you need him?
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sactownclimber
Apr 13, 2005, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: Gri - Gri are awesome. Why? Because of how fast you pay out slack and get it back. Elliott
Having used both an ATC and a GriGri to belay leaders, I have found that I can actually pay out slack faster using my ATC.
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arjunrattan
Apr 13, 2005, 10:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: anyhow im gonna stick to paying out slack withouht interfereing with the cam...since sudden falls wont cause me to panic and squeaze the cam harder...and will ensure that my brake hand is always on the rope... Sorry dude - wrong solution. This method of feeding out slack might work for a predictable slow clip by your partner... however a quick, desperate clip will just cause your device to lock up... To be honest - its not the grigri's fault - you simply were not paying attention... you should only hold down the cam for a split second while you are paying out rope - as soon as you finished feeding rope let go of the cam... also whenever your partner falls look down at your hand - if it hasn't moved off the device and onto the rope you aren't belaying properly. I climb in the same gym as you - I'd highly recommending taking the lead course at the Oasis with Court - he's one of the best I've seen to teach safe belay techniques that will stay with you through out your entire climbing career... I give you credit for coming out and recognizing err in your ways - now do something about it.
you know wat your absolutely right...i seriosly wanted to do the course but was kinda tight on cash..so i just asked a friend who lead climbed to teach me, but honestly that prolly doesnt fully teach you everything you need to know about belaying safely...but yea the accident has made me realize the importance of correct climbing practices..im going to take the lead course. its better to learn things the right way right at the beginning, since im gonna be climbing for a long time...i'm also really glad i realised my mistake without anyone getting hurt..
thanks,
arjun
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petsfed
Apr 13, 2005, 10:26 PM
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Observation (having used both): The one sure fire way to not give slack fast enough with a gri-gri is to not pay attention to what the leader is doing and give a tight belay. Conversely, the one sure fire way to not give slack fast enough with a tube style device is to not pay attention to what the leader is doing and give a tight belay. In other words, as the op pointed out and apologized for, this was belayer error, not device error. Just because all you naysayers cannot safely and effectively operate a gri-gri does not make the device intrinsically unsafe.
In other words: learn to belay, then bitch about the devices.
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arjunrattan
Apr 13, 2005, 10:47 PM
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P.S. the gri-gri is definitely not to blame here.. tonnes of ppl use them and they dont seem to have any problems... so the screw ups are obviosly the belayers error.period.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2005, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: Sounds like you need to stop belaying with a grigri. I suppose your gym makes you...
No wonder Bob D left PA.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 13, 2005, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: If the gym makes people belay with a grigri, then this seems to me to be a perfect example of why they shouldn't make people belay with a gri gri.
And if the accident happened with an ATC, then, by your argument, the gym shouldn't use ATCs. It is not the fault of the device. For once, even the belayer realizes this.
-Jay
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