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jt512
Apr 13, 2005, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: Also, a grigri can't give a dynamic belay, which is something a leader usually appreciates when they take a fall.
I'd say quit while you're ahead, but you never were ahead, so please just quit.
-Jay
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noisymonkey
Apr 13, 2005, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: im going to take the lead course. |
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angry
Apr 13, 2005, 11:07 PM
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I can play out slack faster, take it up faster, and keep my brake hand on the rope at all times -- all with a gri-gri. If you can't, you're using it wrong.
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jt512
Apr 13, 2005, 11:26 PM
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In reply to: ok well i admit it..i made a terrible mistake while belaying a lead climber..
Congratulations on realizing that it was your fault and that the grigri didn't "fail." You are absolutely the first person I've head of not to blame the grigri for this very common belayer error.
Go to Petzl's website and download the instructions for operating the grigri, and study them. Note that almost always, the left hand is on the climber's side of the rope and the right hand is kept on the brake side of the rope. Rope is payed out to the leader by simultaneously pushing rope through with the brake hand and pulling rope out with the guide hand. However, with all but the skinniest of ropes, you cannot pay out slack fast enough using this technique when the leader yards up an armful or two to make a clip. In this case, you slide the brake up to the device, palm up, so that the fingers curl around the bottom of the device, and you use your pinkie and ring finger to squeeze the cam laterally, while you use your guide hand to pull out enough slack for the leader to make the clip. Get in the habit of pulling out enough slack for the clip and getting your brake hand back on the rope immediately, even before the leader makes the clip. This will allow you to quickly take in slack should the leader fall while clipping. Under no circumstances should you reverse the hands; that is, never hold the cam open with the guide hand and pull out slack with the brake hand.
You must always be ultra-vigilent while your partner is making an overhead clip. He has a lot of rope out, and will be in danger of decking on the second, third, and occasionally fourth bolt. Always be prepared when your partner is clipping overhead to quickly haul in slack if he falls.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 13, 2005, 11:31 PM
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duplicate
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arjunrattan
Apr 14, 2005, 12:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ok well i admit it..i made a terrible mistake while belaying a lead climber.. Congratulations on realizing that it was your fault and that the grigri didn't "fail." You are absolutely the first person I've head of not to blame the grigri for this very common belayer error. Go to Petzl's website and download the instructions for operating the grigri, and study them. Note that almost always, the left hand is on the climber's side of the rope and the right hand is kept on the brake side of the rope. Rope is payed out to the leader by simultaneously pushing rope through with the brake hand and pulling rope out with the guide hand. However, with all but the skinniest of ropes, you cannot pay out slack fast enough using this technique when the leader yards up an armful or two to make a clip. In this case, you slide the brake up to the device, palm up, so that the fingers curl around the bottom of the device, and you use your pinkie and ring finger to squeeze the cam laterally, while you use your guide hand to pull out enough slack for the leader to make the clip. Get in the habit of pulling out enough slack for the clip and getting your brake hand back on the rope immediately, even before the leader makes the clip. This will allow you to quickly take in slack should the leader fall while clipping. Under no circumstances should you reverse the hands; that is, never hold the cam open with the guide hand and pull out slack with the brake hand. You must always be ultra-vigilent while your partner is making an overhead clip. He has a lot of rope out, and will be in danger of decking on the second, third, and occasionally fourth bolt. Always be prepared when your partner is clipping overhead to quickly haul in slack if he falls. -Jay
thanks for the info..though yea i did download the info from petzl's website..however im taking the lead course at my gym..its better to have an experienced climber teach me the correct technique(or correct my incorrect techniques rather)..and like though it is a bit $$..its definitely worth it considering i intend to climb for years to come!!
and yea i felt its important to admit to screwing up majorly...cause its made lme earn a lesson and take action to correct my errors...yah i was pretty bummed out wen it happened..but this incident will definitely ensure im 110% attentive on belay from now on....
peace..
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stymingersfink
Apr 14, 2005, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: gri-gri's don't kill people... :? people kill people.... 8^)
huh. and all this time i thought it was ...
In reply to: postal employees kill people! 8^) |
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jumpingrock
Apr 14, 2005, 2:07 PM
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Rock Oasis teaches one thing that I highly despise in a belayer. I was actually recommended to use this technique but refused and do it the way suggested by most in this thread.
They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Personally I think this is retarded. In my world the brake hand never leaves the rope. And if it does then it leaves the rope for a split second to grab the cam, feed out the rope then get back onto the brake side.
I feel that the rock oasis method of teaching is fundamentally flawed. It doesn't surprise me that these things happen with frightening regularity there (Wasn't it less than 2 -3 months ago that the same thing happened from slightly higher up?) On the other hand, this guy never took the course so my speal here is pretty much meaningless in this situation. Cheers.
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jt512
Apr 14, 2005, 3:58 PM
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In reply to: Rock Oasis teaches one thing that I highly despise in a belayer. I was actually recommended to use this technique but refused and do it the way suggested by most in this thread. They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. ... I feel that the rock oasis method of teaching is fundamentally flawed.
It is. That's about the most dangerous way there is to use the grigri. That's the problem with learning to belay in gyms. As often as not, the gym employees themselves are incompetent. I won't let anybody at my gym belay me until I have retrained them myself.
Get the PDF from Petzl, study it, and practice on the ground until you are proficient.
-Jay
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bandycoot
Apr 14, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: I can play out slack faster, take it up faster, and keep my brake hand on the rope at all times -- all with a gri-gri. If you can't, you're using it wrong.
What kind of statement is that?
I can swim faster using backstroke than breaststroke so if you can't, you're doing it wrong!
Logic should be a required class in college...
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petsfed
Apr 14, 2005, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I can play out slack faster, take it up faster, and keep my brake hand on the rope at all times -- all with a gri-gri. If you can't, you're using it wrong. What kind of statement is that? I can swim faster using backstroke than breaststroke so if you can't, you're doing it wrong! Logic should be a required class in college...
When there's a specific technique to the device, if you can't do it quickly, you're doing something wrong. Gri-gris are an awful lot like manual transmissions. They are not pick up and play devices. There isn't much room for creativitiy. If you do things the right way, you won't complain about it. If you do things the wrong way, you will complain about it. Dig?
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hoppinbig
Apr 14, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system.
Not sure where you got this information but you are 100% wrong... maybe someone misunderstood.... I know as a fact that they don't teach this method. Pulling slack with the left hand while the right is on the grigri???? How in the world does one do that? I don't think I bend that way.
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jt512
Apr 14, 2005, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Not sure where you got this information but you are 100% wrong... maybe someone misunderstood.... I know as a fact that they don't teach this method. Pulling slack with the left hand while the right is on the grigri???? How in the world does one do that? I don't think I bend that way.
As usual, this thread is a fucking mess. You don't bend that way? Pulling slack out with the left hand while holding the grigri with the right hand is exactly how Petzl recommends slack be pulled out when the leader needs it to clip. How can you not bend that way? Do you attach the grigri to your belay loop upsidedown? Are you one of those retards who insists on clipping his belay device to his tie-in points instead of the belay loop, inspite of the fact that this orients the grigri incorrectly, twists the rope when you lower your partner, and increases the risk that the belay carabiner will be crossloaded in a fall?
-Jay
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jumpingrock
Apr 14, 2005, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Not sure where you got this information but you are 100% wrong... maybe someone misunderstood.... I know as a fact that they don't teach this method. Pulling slack with the left hand while the right is on the grigri???? How in the world does one do that? I don't think I bend that way. As usual, this thread is a f---ing mess. You don't bend that way? Pulling slack out with the left hand while holding the grigri with the right hand is exactly how Petzl recommends slack be pulled out when the leader needs it to clip. How can you not bend that way? Do you attach the grigri to your belay loop upsidedown? Are you one of those retards who insists on clipping his belay device to his tie-in points instead of the belay loop, inspite of the fact that this orients the grigri incorrectly, twists the rope when you lower your partner, and increases the risk that the belay carabiner will be crossloaded in a fall? -Jay
Woaa. Easy here. Hoppinbig is a respected member of the climbing community, and from watching him belay on occasion (as him and his friends send routes that I dream of flailing on) I know that he belays perfectly safetly.
I may have been a bit misleading here. When I did that test, the fellow (hell if I know his name, short black hair, boulders pretty strong, works there) told me to keep my hand on the gri gri at all times and use my left hand to pull rope out to clip (easy enough) and reach down below the device and pull the excess slack out of the system (also easy enough). Just try it and you will see how easy it is. Now whether or not this is how Court teaches it I don't know, but I know that I have seen FAR too many belayers there, with their right hand always on the gri-gri. I simply don't like that and I don't trust the method.
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arjunrattan
Apr 14, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Not sure where you got this information but you are 100% wrong... maybe someone misunderstood.... I know as a fact that they don't teach this method. Pulling slack with the left hand while the right is on the grigri???? How in the world does one do that? I don't think I bend that way. As usual, this thread is a f---ing mess. You don't bend that way? Pulling slack out with the left hand while holding the grigri with the right hand is exactly how Petzl recommends slack be pulled out when the leader needs it to clip. How can you not bend that way? Do you attach the grigri to your belay loop upsidedown? Are you one of those retards who insists on clipping his belay device to his tie-in points instead of the belay loop, inspite of the fact that this orients the grigri incorrectly, twists the rope when you lower your partner, and increases the risk that the belay carabiner will be crossloaded in a fall? -Jay
umm jay, hoppinbig prolly meant 'pulling out the excess slack'(taking in the slack..). i can see how takin in slack and giving slack both with the left hand, while the right hand is holding the device, can get messy(not to mention dangerous? since this method involves always clamping down on the gri gri)...
but yea on a sidenote the staff at oasis are great and they all seem really experienced..i dont think ive seen anyone at oasis use the gri-gri in the way described above to take in slack, but it does seem that a lot of lead belayers always have their right hand on the gri gri and just switch it over to the rope when their climber falls.peace.
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wings
Apr 14, 2005, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Not sure where you got this information but you are 100% wrong... maybe someone misunderstood.... I know as a fact that they don't teach this method. Pulling slack with the left hand while the right is on the grigri???? How in the world does one do that? I don't think I bend that way. As usual, this thread is a f---ing mess. You don't bend that way? Pulling slack out with the left hand while holding the grigri with the right hand is exactly how Petzl recommends slack be pulled out when the leader needs it to clip. How can you not bend that way? Do you attach the grigri to your belay loop upsidedown? Are you one of those retards who insists on clipping his belay device to his tie-in points instead of the belay loop, inspite of the fact that this orients the grigri incorrectly, twists the rope when you lower your partner, and increases the risk that the belay carabiner will be crossloaded in a fall? -Jay Woaa. Easy here. Hoppinbig is a respected member of the climbing community, and from watching him belay on occasion (as him and his friends send routes that I dream of flailing on) I know that he belays perfectly safetly. I may have been a bit misleading here. When I did that test, the fellow (hell if I know his name, short black hair, boulders pretty strong, works there) told me to keep my hand on the gri gri at all times and use my left hand to pull rope out to clip (easy enough) and reach down below the device and pull the excess slack out of the system (also easy enough). Just try it and you will see how easy it is. Now whether or not this is how Court teaches it I don't know, but I know that I have seen FAR too many belayers there, with their right hand always on the gri-gri. I simply don't like that and I don't trust the method.
It has been a long time since I've been to Rock Oasis, but during the years that I climbed there no one told me to "keep my hand on the gri gri at all times". I suspect this fellow that tested you was very misinformed as to the proper use of a gri gri, and why he is doing the tests at all may be a good question to ask.
Cort (not Curt, not Court) teaches the "put your right hand on the gri gri momentarily while giving out slack" technique. Lots of people tend to get sloppy with this, unfortunately, and bad stuff happens.
I guess the next question for you is, how is your confidence now that this has occurred to you? Do you feel a strong sense that you will never make another mistake again? Or do you feel as though you want to take a bit of time to think things through?
- Seyil
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tradklime
Apr 14, 2005, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If the gym makes people belay with a grigri, then this seems to me to be a perfect example of why they shouldn't make people belay with a gri gri. And if the accident happened with an ATC, then, by your argument, the gym shouldn't use ATCs. It is not the fault of the device. For once, even the belayer realizes this. -Jay
Jay, I think you missed his point. I read it as the gym shouldn't make people belay with a gri gri. And I agree. Gyms shouldn't make people belay with any specific device, atcs, grigris, whatever.
People should be allowed to use any device certified for belay use. People should be allowed to use whatever device they are most comfortable and experienced with.
I agree that it is problematic, and a potential source of liability, when gyms force the use of a specific belay device.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with grigris, but they are likely the most misused or misunderstood belay devices out there. Gyms should not force their use.
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arjunrattan
Apr 14, 2005, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: I guess the next question for you is, how is your confidence now that this has occurred to you? Do you feel a strong sense that you will never make another mistake again? Or do you feel as though you want to take a bit of time to think things through? - Seyil
well I know for a fact that the accident happened because I wasn't using the gri-gri properly. Since I have'nt taken the lead cource my belay technique wasnt correct. plain and simple.
The way I was belaying, my entire right hand was always clamped on the cam(instead of just lightly holding it down with two fingers momentarily). Had there been some sorta warning of a fall from my climber I would have moved over my right hand and started to take in slack..but a warning isn't always possible on hard routes. My entire right hand was still clamped down on the gri gri once I had given out the required amt of slack( it should have been on the rope at this point). Thus when he fell I instintively clamped down on the device harder, though if I was belaying correctly my hand would have been on the rope at this point.
I prolly would have gotten away with my technique if my climber always yelled "take" or "falling" before a fall or completed the climb without falling(this has always been the case wen i belayed before)..but my incorrect belay technique was clearly exposed by this accident.
As for my confidence..well I'm just as confident as I was before. I am 110% certain that I wont make the same mistake again. Though i' m taking the lead course(even though no one saw the accident!!) so I will learn the correct techniques instead of having to find them out by mishaps such as these. So yea I guess I not gonna be leading for a little while till I take the course. peace .
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wings
Apr 14, 2005, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: Jay, I think you missed his point. I read it as the gym shouldn't make people belay with a gri gri. And I agree. Gyms shouldn't make people belay with any specific device, atcs, grigris, whatever.
There are two known and one speculative reason for Rock Oasis requiring the use of grigris for belaying:
1. and 2. Two specific incidents back when they used to allow tube / plate style devices for belaying.
3. The speculation part is that of pressure from their insurance company. And while this may be speculation in this particular case, it is not speculation for other gyms.
I don't necessarily agree with their decision to force grigris on everyone, but I can see their point of view.
As a side note, Joe Rockheads required the use of grigris long before Rock Oasis did. I don't know the policy at TCA nor any of the newer gyms.
- Seyil
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fracture
Apr 14, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: They say that you should ALWAYS keep your right hand on the gri-gri. And use your left hand to both feed and pull slack from the system. Personally I think this is retarded. In my world the brake hand never leaves the rope. And if it does then it leaves the rope for a split second to grab the cam, feed out the rope then get back onto the brake side.
Interesting side note for anyone who is curious: this usage is actually kosher on a Cinch, because your hand which holds the device is also always holding the brake rope (it feeds slack or locks based on the angle the rope pulls instead of your hand leaving the brake to pinch a cam). (Oh, and I actually emailed trango just to make sure before I started doing it that way).
Gyms definitely should not require use of a particular belay device: that's just asking for accidents. Someone who is a very proficent ATC belayer may be dangerous on a GriGri, and vice versa. If you want less accidents in your gym, let people belay with their device of choice.
Oh: and if you use a GriGri, please read the frickin' manual that came with it (it's available on Petzl's webpage if you don't have it anymore). Contrary to popular belief, these things are not self-explanatory or "idiot proof".
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 14, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Is everyone braindead? If I was still voting posts, I would give just about all of them poos.
A "5.11" climber being belayed by a "unknown gumbie," blows the third clip and is supposed to be surprised that he decked? How come I am the only one that see's that as being pretty dam strange.
Just about every gym route that I have ever been on, if you blow the third clip, you are going to hit the ground.
Bottom line; it is the leaders fault, for blowing the clip, and even more so for falling while being belayed by a gumby.
The whole grigri debate totally misses the point. And as far as dealing with a blown clip, a grigri is better than an atc.
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curt
Apr 14, 2005, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: ....The whole grigri debate totally misses the point. And as far as dealing with a blown clip, a grigri is better than an atc.
Only if the belayer knows how to use it properly. My biggest issue with the grigri is the perception that they are fool-proof. I suppose this preception exists because they can stop a fall even if the belayer has his/her hands off the device. It is because of this additional perceived safety factor that insurance companies and climbing gyms favor them. In reality, of course, it is totally possible to screw-up a belay while using a grigri.
Curt
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jt512
Apr 14, 2005, 8:13 PM
Post #48 of 67
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In reply to: There is absolutely nothing wrong with grigris, but they are likely the most misused or misunderstood belay devices out there. Gyms should not force their use.
I have been told that it is often the insurance company that insists that an autolocking device be used.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 14, 2005, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: Bottom line; it is the leaders fault, for blowing the clip, and even more so for falling while being belayed by a gumby.
I agree that from the leader's perspective, he should take responsiblity for his own safety, including his decision to climb with an inexperienced partner, but given that the thread was opened by the belayer, this point misses the mark somewhat.
-Jay
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curt
Apr 14, 2005, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ....The whole grigri debate totally misses the point. And as far as dealing with a blown clip, a grigri is better than an atc. Only if the belayer knows how to use it properly. My biggest issue with the grigri is the perception that they are fool-proof. I suppose this perception exists because they can stop a fall even if the belayer has his/her hands off the device. It is because of this additional perceived safety factor that insurance companies and climbing gyms favor them. In reality, of course, it is totally possible to screw-up a belay while using a grigri. Curt |
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