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deschamps1000
Apr 25, 2005, 12:58 PM
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So I was climbing at Summersville Lake in WV last weekend. Sweet spot lots of fun. I noticed one beautiful crack running out of a massive, possibly 30 feet horizontal, roof. The crack was not continuous so you would need bolts to protect sections of it.
But, other sections were just beautiful and splitting, and could easily take good gear. #2s and #1s. But, it was still bolted. Now granted, on a line that hard it would take a lot of energy to plug gear.
But, it STILL takes good gear. I was surprised to see it bolted, and am surprised the bolts haven't been chopped...
So no need to start a war here, I just want to hear everybody else's opinion on this... Do you think the bolts are okay?
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overlord
Apr 25, 2005, 1:08 PM
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In reply to: and am surprised the bolts haven't been chopped...
why??? because other ppl have common sense to leave the thing as it is rather than start a pointless bolt war???
if the bolts were put there by the FA party they shouldnt be chopped. retrobolts are fair game as far as im concerned, but still consider the fact that chopping (and then most likely rebolting) causes even more damage to the rock. sometimes its just better to leave things as they are and since the locals obviously decided to do so you should respect their decision. after all they are the ones that couldve been bothered the most by these bolts.
youll have to find whoever bolted that thing to find out why he did it. maybe he jsut decided it wasnt worth the bother to bring trad gear on what was already a climb with bolts so he decided to bolt it completely while he had the gear at hand.
and one more point, you dont have to clip them if you dont want to :wink:
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j_ung
Apr 25, 2005, 1:15 PM
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No flaming here, just raising another question. Did you climb the crack?
If so, stop reading now. :wink:
If not, how do you know for certain it would take the gear? I've been on many a crack that looked bomber from the ground only to find it less straightforward or even unprotectable once I was in it. Any number of factors could go into making those bolts more useful than you think when standing on the ground.
Assuming, however, for the sake of argument, that this crack is as protectable as you think it is, no, I'm not in favor of bolting it. But, neither am I in favor of removing the bolts. Bolted (protectable) cracks are lame, IMO, but local ethic rules.
Where's the route in question? The Narcissus cave? If it's the route I'm thinking of, somebody told me that it never went free. Not sure.
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ullr
Apr 25, 2005, 1:22 PM
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Batter up...............
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rrrADAM
Apr 25, 2005, 1:24 PM
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My opinion on bolted cracks...
If it is a Sport Climbing area, and the ethic has been to bolt everything from the begining, then I have no issue with it.
If it is not a Sport Climbing area and the climb was an established Trad line, then they belong there just as much as bolts belong on a tall boulder problem. All the same arguments would go for bolting a boulder problem that are used for bolting trad lines...
1. Its bolted to make it safer
2. If you don't like the bolts, don't use them
I think we can all agree that bolts don't belong on tall boulder problems, and that the reasons listed above would be BS if used to justify bolts on one... They are BS for bolting Trad lines as well. Don't lower the climb down to your level, rise to the level of the climb, just as one should rise to the level of a tall boulder problem instead of bolting it. :wink:
We as climbers need to follow the "Leave no Trace" ethic more and more these days, given that our behavior and what we do impacts the resources that we SHARE with non-climbers also... If we just bolt everything in sight, and show that we cannot govern ourselves, then we only show that we need to be governed because we cannot practice any restraint. Unfortunately, it only takes a few people to ruin it for the many.
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jkarns
Apr 25, 2005, 1:32 PM
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get over yourself! I'm pretty sure that I know what you're talking about, and its a PROJECT!!! That moster roof can be climbed even with the bolts. Plus, it is not an entirely gear protected climb at a very-much-so sport area. Let the bolts be. Of course if this were the dacks or some other heavily traditional area, then that would be a different story. fact of the matter, nobody visits that cliff but climbers. Those bolts are hurting NO ONE!!! WHy not go sent that project without them?
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lehanen
Apr 25, 2005, 1:43 PM
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Here in Ireland it is a primarily trad climbing which to a point is great because it such a good way to climb but there are some amazing climbs here that would have little or no protection. The MCI(Mountaineering Council of Ireland) are completely against the use of bolts and even pegs that may be put up to use as an anchor are ripped out as quickly as they are put in. The great thing about sport is that you can push your grade alot more than on trad. I would love if some of the routes in designated areas were bolted here, if you don't want to use them you don't have to. Its a different style of climbing and its nice to have the choice to do it.
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angry
Apr 25, 2005, 2:22 PM
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Skipping bolts has never been a valid arguement. They are there, and whether or not you use them, the climb is tainted. I've skipped many many bolts, I always wished they weren't there to start with. I like purity before protection, bobd will post up in about 5 minutes telling you all that I'm full of myself because of that.
As far as if the bolts are needed, I don't know, I've never been there.
You don't damage the rock if you pull bolts right.
Ethics indeed may be local, but what is right or wrong does not change.
I've seen routes that I was certain would get chopped, then I've been back a year later and the bolts remained untouched. I've begun to realize that there isn't some group of bolt ninja's out there pulling bolts. It's all of us, and if we think someone else will do it, it won't get done. That quote from the ethics issue applies here more than most, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
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rrrADAM
Apr 25, 2005, 2:57 PM
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Good reply 'shiz'.
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timmy_t
Apr 25, 2005, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: So no need to start a war here, I just want to hear everybody else's opinion
I thought that was what rc.com was for, fighting and bashing other peoples opinions.
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fracture
Apr 25, 2005, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: ... That quote from the ethics issue applies here more than most, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
Evil?
Come on you guys---it's some metal in a rock. This isn't an issue of good vs. evil.
Apparently this is at a sport area, too. Unbolted cracks at a sport area are what is unethical. :lol:
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elvislegs
Apr 25, 2005, 3:13 PM
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word to that shit fshizzle.
flame me for this if you feel the need. but i will always feel a sense of loss and disgust when i see a protectable crack with bolts next to it. not trying to be a hardman tough guy. just seems really dumb and unnecessary.
also please don't try the "fair access to all climbers / what if i can't afford trad gear cuz iam 10 yrs old?" argument. it is weak and played, and makes ray bradbury spin like a fucking top in his grave. give the man some peace and quiet... commies! heh.
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dingus
Apr 25, 2005, 3:24 PM
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I actually get a kick out of not having to clip a particular bolt, for whatever reason. Fixed pro too.
Now I'm an old punter so don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking out of school here.
But say I'm leading a pitch on some Yosemite classic that has a bolt put in by one of my betters... if I can climb past that section without clipping that bolt, I am secretly pleased.
Even on well trodden classics there are occasional fixed pieces that most parties clip that me or people I have climbed with seem to take a certain amount of pleasure in bypassiung, maybe using some removable pro or what have you.
Followed Angus up some pitch, noticed instead of clipping a fixed pin he fiddled in a nut 5 feet lower and then ran it out. First thing he says to me as I climb up to his belay, FIRST THING...
"Hey Ding, didjya see where I skipped that bogus pin?" Funny how they become bogus when you don't clip them, huh?
Anyway, my point is, Angus, Dingus and a host of others get nice little false ego-boosts over skipping the occasional clip. Removing that pro removes our little Red Bull Ego-in-a-can gratification.
I mean, what joy is there in skipping a clip that isn't there to begin with?
See, I never understood the "I AM OFFENDED! OUTRAGED! GODDAMNIT< THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THAT BOLT THREATENS CIVILIZATION! IT RUINED MY CLIMB!" crowd.
That is not to say I haven't been offended by retrobolts. I have. But more from a lack of respect for tradition than anything else.
Cheerio
DMT
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deschamps1000
Apr 26, 2005, 2:37 AM
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yes, it is the one in the narcissus cave. So it hasn't gone free... you know what would be fucking sweet!? If somebody would free that fucker using as much gear as possible. And then come back and chop whatever bolts they didn't need...
that would be fucking sweet.
i wish I were stronger!
It's nice (and surprising) to see that this discussion stayed civilized.
I thought one good comment was that
"Ethics indeed may be local, but what is right or wrong does not change."
I think this is wrong when concerned with an issue that is on the borderline, such as rap bolting or something of that nature. Then local ethics rule. But, when blasting a hole in the rock when there are other options is concerned, in my opinion that is blatently unnecessary and thus local ethics are overruled.
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billcoe_
Apr 26, 2005, 2:52 AM
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In reply to: yes, it is the one in the narcissus cave. So it hasn't gone free... you know what would be f---ing sweet!? If somebody would free that f--- using as much gear as possible. And then come back and chop whatever bolts they didn't need... that would be f---ing sweet. i wish I were stronger! It's nice (and surprising) to see that this discussion stayed civilized. I thought one good comment was that "Ethics indeed may be local, but what is right or wrong does not change." I think this is wrong when concerned with an issue that is on the borderline, such as rap bolting or something of that nature. Then local ethics rule. But, when blasting a hole in the rock when there are other options is concerned, in my opinion that is blatently unnecessary and thus local ethics are overruled.
Probably nothing anybody will say from this point on will add substance to the discussion. Let us all stop discussing it right now and just re-read this post.
Thank you
Bill
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rudyj2
Apr 26, 2005, 2:52 AM
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No!
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jt512
Apr 26, 2005, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: get over yourself!
Concur. Trophy.
-Jay
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climbsomething
Apr 26, 2005, 3:53 AM
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T1, but add a sit start to it and it might be T9/10
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asandh
Apr 26, 2005, 3:59 AM
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:)
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 26, 2005, 5:29 AM
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:lol:
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alpinerockfiend
Apr 26, 2005, 5:29 AM
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dupe
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mistertyler
Apr 26, 2005, 6:07 AM
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I think having bolts nearby while climbing a protectable crack would give me an empty feeling inside -- similar to mock-leading a trad pitch with a slack TR as a backup.
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clovissprout
Apr 26, 2005, 6:35 AM
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A wise friend of mine once said "Sport climbers have no imagination."
p
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ikefromla
Apr 26, 2005, 7:25 AM
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I will never bolt a protectable crack.. period. Even if it is a hardasfucktoclimb crack. I won't do it. It's ridiculous and uncalled for, even at a sport crag imho.
That being said, I would never chop or pull a bolt, especially not at Summersville or The New, areas that have avoided such conflicts thus far.
Wow, a 19-year-old sided with the tradies... um kind of... i think.
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ikefromla
Apr 26, 2005, 7:26 AM
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In reply to: A wise friend of mine once said "Sport climbers have no imagination." |
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