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arjunrattan
Jul 12, 2005, 7:47 PM
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Hi,
I pm'ed this to jt512 and gunked..no reply so im posting on here too..it might help others ....
I've started having trouble with tendons recently. This sorta coincides with me climbing and bouldering harder. Basically I have mild carpel tunnel syndrome in my left hand/wrist and I tore a ligament(or tendon in my right hand. I believe the condition is called triangular fibocartilage tear. I've been off climbing for about 4 weeks now(climbed twice in that period...only a couple of easy 5.8ish outdoor climbs) and my injury seems to be healing...but at a verrrryy slow rate.
I read up on taking a combination of Glucosamine/Chondroitin. The general recomendation is about 1500mg for glucosamine and about 1200mg for chondroitin per day. However lot of climbers seem to be taking 1800 - 2000mg of glucoseamine per day. I was just wondering what would be the correct amount of both these supplents, considering I will start training seriosly and regularly once I heal completely?? I also read up on emu oil. Aparently it has pretty positive results. Your take on that?
I would apprieciate if you could suggest exercises/other measures to prevent tendon injury. I have read the book "training for climbing" by Eric Horst. It doesnt seem to have enough info on injury prevention/recovery and nutritional supplements.
Sorry for all the trouble, but I feel it will be beneficial to have a climbers opinion on the subject. I will consult a doctor too before I start taking the above mentioned supplements.
Thanks,
- Arjun
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jt512
Jul 12, 2005, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: Hi, I pm'ed this to jt512 too..no reply so im posting on here too..it might help others .... I've started having trouble with tendons recently. This sorta coincides with me climbing and bouldering harder. Basically I have mild carpel tunnel syndrome in my left hand/wrist and I tore a ligament(or tendon in my right hand. I believe the condition is called triangular fibocartilage tear. I've been off climbing for about 4 weeks now(climbed twice in that period...only a couple of easy 5.8ish outdoor climbs) and my injury seems to be healing...but at a verrrryy slow rate.
I am not aware of any scientific evidence supporting a benefit of glucosamine or chondroitin for tendons or ligaments. All the studies I've seen have been for osteoarthritis, for which at least glucsosamine sulfate has been shown to be beneficial. The most common dose in these studies has been 500 mg, 3 times/day. Glucosamine supplementation at this level is considered to have very little risk, so even if it turns out not to be useful for tendon or ligament injuries, it might be worth a try.
In reply to: I also read up on emu oil. Aparently it has pretty positive results. Your take on that?
I've never heard of emu oil. I'd guess it to be a close relative of snake oil.
In reply to: I will consult a doctor too before I start taking the above mentioned supplements.
I'd be interested in hearing what your doctor has to say about the subject. Please PM me or post.
-Jay
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iltripp
Jul 12, 2005, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: I've never heard of emu oil. I'd guess it to be a close relative of snake oil.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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glyrocks
Jul 12, 2005, 10:23 PM
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I've had absurdly good results taking Glucosamine Chondroitin. Not sure of the dosage off the top of my head, but I take it twice a day and it's been remarkable. Not exactly a scientific study, but it's made my life way, way easier.
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jt512
Jul 12, 2005, 10:35 PM
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In reply to: I've had absurdly good results taking Glucosamine Chondroitin. Not sure of the dosage off the top of my head, but I take it twice a day and it's been remarkable. Not exactly a scientific study, but it's made my life way, way easier.
Care to provide some details...any details?
-Jay
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oldsalt
Jul 12, 2005, 10:38 PM
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I don't have the bottle in front of me, but I am taking Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM daily. I have Osteoarthritis and I can't tell any difference with or without the supplements.
Where can I find the study showing the benefits of Glucosamine (or any of them, for that matter), please?
Deep down, I fear that the entire supplement industry is peddling snake oil, but I want to believe that something will allow me to keep climbing on this hip. It and my 45 pound pack made the hike to Table Rock on Saturday, but it was slow going. I guess I can't complain with 4 Yonah hikes in the past year and a half at the extreme end of what the hip has permitted.
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learnin2climb
Jul 12, 2005, 10:49 PM
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I've had good results with 1500mg/day Glucosamine 1000mg/day Chondroitin mix. It seems to releave me of the pain in my hands. I started taking it after reading about some of the degenerative effects of anti-inflammatories. Like previous posters stated, there isn't any hard evidence to say that Glucosamine works. My climbing partner just visited a sports medicine doctor for a knee issue (unrelated to climbing) and the pain in his hands; the doctor recommended Glucosimine/Chrondroitin. If you can find it and deal with the taste I would purchase it in liquid form. Because its not regulated by the FDA the actual dosage can vary and you will absorb more of the compound when its in the liquid form.
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qulith
Jul 12, 2005, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: I am not aware of any scientific evidence supporting a benefit of glucosamine or chondroitin for tendons or ligaments. All the studies I've seen have been for osteoarthritis, for which at least glucsosamine sulfate has been shown to be beneficial. The most common dose in these studies has been 500 mg, 3 times/day. Glucosamine supplementation at this level is considered to have very little risk, so even if it turns out not to be useful for tendon or ligament injuries, it might be worth a try.
My doctor (hand specialist with experience with climbing injuries) told me there was no supplement that would help heal/strengthen ligaments (pulley rupture). When I asked, he said glucosamine/chondroitin/msn was for joint lubrication.
I can't input on tendons since I didn't ask him.
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gunkiemike
Jul 13, 2005, 1:33 AM
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In reply to: If you can find it and deal with the taste I would purchase it in liquid form. Because its not regulated by the FDA the actual dosage can vary and you will absorb more of the compound when its in the liquid form.
Have you looked up the water solubility of glucosamine sulfate? (no, I haven't either). I'll bet it's WATER SOLUBLE. i.e. liquid form in your digestive tract.
Liquid meds may be faster because they don't have to dissolve, but unless you're trying the head off a migraine the extra 20 minutes is of no clinical significance. Certainly not in the case of long term supplement use like we're talking about here.
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8flood8
Jul 13, 2005, 2:13 AM
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i started taking emer gen c with glucosamine and chrondritin daily. it has a 500mg dosage. it may be psychosomatic, but my achy shoulder isn't so achy after half a box. my friend amy swears by it
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arjunrattan
Jul 13, 2005, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: I've never heard of emu oil. I'd guess it to be a close relative of snake oil.
well here is some info on emu oil:
http://www.emuoilcanada.com/
aparently it has anti inflamatory properties comparable to iboprofin...I found out about it on the net, looking for info on carpel tunnel syndrome. Doesnt sound verrry scientific, but doesnt look like it would cause any damage either...
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gunked
Jul 13, 2005, 4:44 PM
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i PM'd you
-Jason
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jt512
Jul 13, 2005, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've never heard of emu oil. I'd guess it to be a close relative of snake oil. well here is some info on emu oil: http://www.emuoilcanada.com/ aparently it has anti inflamatory properties comparable to iboprofin...I found out about it on the net, looking for info on carpel tunnel syndrome. Doesnt sound verrry scientific, but doesnt look like it would cause any damage either...
Tell that to the emu!
Looking at the fatty acid composition of emu meat (from which the oil is derived, presumably) in the USDA nutrient database, I don't see why it would be any more anti-inflammatory than any other high omega-3 fatty acid oil, such as canola oil. If emu oil is an effective topical anti-inflammatory, then canola oil, which you can buy at the grocery store, should be, too. Gotta wonder why we haven't heard more about such a simple arthritis remedy, eh?
-Jay
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slacklinejoe
Jul 13, 2005, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: If emu oil is an effective topical anti-inflammatory, then canola oil, which you can buy at the grocery store, should be, too. Gotta wonder why we haven't heard more about such a simple arthritis remedy, eh? -Jay
Obviously no evidence for it, but my Grandmother swears that canola oil actually does work for joint lubrication (granted again no claim for tendons). She tried emu oil and didn't see a difference. One of her friends recommended it to her who is one of those semi-flaky physical therapists / nutritionists - (the ones without degrees).
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gogo
Jul 13, 2005, 5:25 PM
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The recommended dosage is 1500mg Glucosamine 1200mg Chondroitin per day.
As most pills are at 500mg Glucosamine/400mg Chondroitin, that is taking it three times a day.
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skinnyclimber
Jul 13, 2005, 5:26 PM
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for Shnits and giggles I did a quick literature search and found a few articles of scientific nature. I don't know anything on the subject, but here's an abstract of an experiment on emu oil.
Title: Antagonism of croton oil inflammation by topical Emu oil in CD-1 mice
Journal: LIPIDS; JUN 2003; v.38, no.6, p.603-607
Abstract: Emu oil is derived from the emu (Dromaius novaehollandiae), which originated in Australia, and has been reported to have anti-inflammatory properties. Inflammation was induced in anesthetized CD-1 mice by applying 50 muL of 2% croton oil to the inner surface of the left ear. After 2 h, the area was treated with 5 muL of emu, fish, flaxseed, olive, or liquified chicken fat, or left untreated. Animals were euthanized at 6 h postapplication of different oils, and earplugs (EP) and plasma samples were collected. Inflammation was evaluated by change in earlobe thickness, increase in weight of EP tissue (compared to the untreated ear), and induction in cytokines interleukin (IL)-1alpha and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) in EP homogenates. Although reductions relative to control (croton oil) were noted for all treatments, auricular thickness and EP weights were significantly reduced (-72 and -71%, respectively) only in the emu oil-treated group. IL-1alpha levels in homogenates of auricular tissue were significantly reduced in the fish oil (-57%) and emu oil (-70%) groups relative to the control group. The cytokine TNF-alpha from auricular homogenates was significantly reduced in the olive oil (-52%) and emu oil (-60%) treatment groups relative to the control group. Plasma cytokine levels were not changed by croton oil treatment. Although auricular thickness and weight were significantly correlated with each other (r = 0.780, P < 0.003), auricular thickness but not weight was significantly correlated with cytokine IL-1alpha (r = 0.750, P < 0.006) and TNF-alpha (r = 0.690, P < 0.02). These studies indicate that topical emu oil has anti-inflammatory properties in the CD-1 mouse that are associated with decreased auricular thickness and weight, and with the cytokines IL-1alpha and TNF-alpha.
It's not very exciting, but maybe it means emu oil isn't worthless. Either way I don't see myself using it any time soon.
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headchop
Jul 13, 2005, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: The recommended dosage is 1500mg Glucosamine 1200mg Chondroitin per day. As most pills are at 500mg Glucosamine/400mg Chondroitin, that is taking it three times a day.
My understanding is that the recommended dosage above should be taken with each meal (500mg at breakfast/lunch/dinner) and is only for the first two or three months after which the dosage should be dropped to about one third - or one pill a day.
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sonyhome
Jul 27, 2005, 2:56 AM
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For pulley injury recovery, after it has healed, if it's still inflammed, just tape up with compression tape (it looks all wrinkled, feels like rubber, usually brown unless colored, self sticks, often used on horse legs) to reduce swelling, and also make sure the finger straightens fully, else it can heal bent because of the scarring tissues. Do not force on the injured finger or it'll be worst. See a specialist or sports doctor.
I tore an A2 pulley and it took me a year to recover because I decided to have it repaired via surgery: 6 month to recover after the injury waiting to reduce swell (plus vacations etc :)) and 6 month after surgery. Other friends have not gone thorugh surgery and are fine too. After that injury, asking around I realized it's freaking common, around reaching 5.11/5.12 level or bouldering V4/V5, many people mess themselves up. Few go see a doctor and just buddy tape for months.
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sandstoner
Jul 27, 2005, 3:37 AM
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ive had very good results with my recurring shoulder tendonitus using syn-flex.
its about 30 bucks for a months supply, but hey, if it works...
here's the site for more info:
http://www.activexamerica.com/index.php
1250 mg Glucosamine HCL and Glucosamine Sulfate
25 mg Shark Cartilage (20% Chondroitin Sulfate)
8 mg Boswellin
3 mg Yucca Powder
5 mg Manganese (Ascorbate)
1 mg Bromelain
5 mg Vitamin C
5 mg Omega 3 Fatty Acid
1.67 mg Omega 6 Fatty Acid
80 IU Vitamin A
2 IU Vitamin E
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annak
Jul 27, 2005, 3:50 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If emu oil is an effective topical anti-inflammatory, then canola oil, which you can buy at the grocery store, should be, too. Gotta wonder why we haven't heard more about such a simple arthritis remedy, eh? -Jay Obviously no evidence for it, but my Grandmother swears that canola oil actually does work for joint lubrication (granted again no claim for tendons). She tried emu oil and didn't see a difference. One of her friends recommended it to her who is one of those semi-flaky physical therapists / nutritionists - (the ones without degrees).
I have read a pseudo-scientific explanation of the positive effects of canola oil on arthritis in a popular diet book. No idea if it works, but it is definitely pushed as anti-arthritis cure.
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annak
Jul 27, 2005, 4:03 AM
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I am taking 1200 mg of glucosamine/crotondium twice a day, just because Clyde Soles' book recommends it for climbers. Naturally, I do not have a reference point, but so far I am ok and my minor joint pains do not escalate, despite me training harder and harder.
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8flood8
Jul 27, 2005, 6:16 PM
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i went to an accupuncturist who told me that chrondroiton and glucosamine are for old people.
he said that i could continue taking it, but that it really doesn't do much for the youngins.
he also happens to be an MD. soooo anyway, i'm going to keep taking it because when you read about it, there is talk of joint lubrication and whatnot... and hell.. why not.
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fluxus
Jul 27, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: I don't have the bottle in front of me, but I am taking Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM daily. I have Osteoarthritis and I can't tell any difference with or without the supplements. Where can I find the study showing the benefits of Glucosamine (or any of them, for that matter), please?
If you go to the pubmed website and search under glucosamine you will find many studies on the stuff. I have looked at some of the litrature and can't help but note that the research comunity has focused on arthritis in the knees more than anything else. The papers I looked at suggested that it was helpful for the knees but I was left with the impression that the body does not take the stuff and use it the way we assume or hope that it would. It appears that the localion, type and, of course the severity of the damage may all be vairables in the effectivness of the stuff. Naturally dosage is also important and as Jay pointed out the typical does is 1500mg a day.
What I would like to see but have not found is an overview of the research done to date that can provide some kind of break down of these issues.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2005, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: What I would like to see but have not found is an overview of the research done to date that can provide some kind of break down of these issues.
Pubmed has a new feature. On the search results page there are two tabs, one for all results and one just for review papers. Click on the Review tab, and you should be able to find what you are looking for.
-Jay
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gunked
Jul 27, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Check out http://www.jointjuice.com. I worked for these guys a few years ago when they were starting out and you should find plenty of info on their site. I'm kinda in a rush now so I'll let the website do the talking for me. I will say, however, that Dr. Stone is one of the top MD's in the country in his field and his client list consists of some of the country's top athletes. An incredible # of olympians as well. This, I know first hand.
-Jason :D
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