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dingus
Sep 27, 2005, 9:02 PM
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You are walking around the base of a cliff, partnerless. You happen upon a party of climbers top roping a route. A friendly hello is followed by an offer to let you use the TR. The other climbers are nice. They don't strike you as particularly gumby. They SEEM competent, as far as you can tell from 5 minutes of watching TR action.
The anchors of the TR are easily inspected, you simply have to walk up there to do it.
The question is... do you do it? Do you inspect the anchors in this sort of scenario? Do you insist upon it or is it just something you posture about on the internet but rarely put into practice in the real world? Or is it, bygawd, I'm not TRing on an anchor unless I see it with my own baby blues?
Well, what say you?
Huh?
DMT
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bill413
Sep 27, 2005, 9:18 PM
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Well....It depends (TM).
On my good (cautious) days, yes - I'll inspect. On some other days, I probably wouldn't.
But, oh, yes...I'll posture on the internet that I ALWAYS would inspect.
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veganboyjosh
Sep 27, 2005, 9:24 PM
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i think i'd ask about it.
depending on the answer i got, i may check it, or not. any person who i'd wanna climb with, or want to climb with me, would not have an issue with me checking it.
think about it this way.
you and your friends are toproping. some other party comes along, and you offer to let them use your toprope. are you offended when they ask about it, and want to go check it out before they tie in?
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sarcat
Sep 27, 2005, 9:24 PM
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Even though I don't think I ever have, I would always inspect someone else's anchor.... :D
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squish
Sep 27, 2005, 9:26 PM
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No. If they trust their lives to it, I'd most likely throw my lot in too.
Then again, most TRs around here give solid options for anchors (solid trees, etc, if not fat bolts) so there's usually little reason to worry.
Then again, if I know the top to be a sketchy or fiddly anchoring proposition, I might walk around to take a look and evaluate their ingenuity.
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landgolier
Sep 27, 2005, 9:36 PM
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DMT may be trolling, but...
Most of the crap anchors I've ever seen were not by noobs (who tend to do things like equalize 3 humongo trees with an 8mil cordelette that has a triple fishermans with overhand backups more often than they do death rigs), but by the types who have been at it long enough to get complacent but not long enough to have gotten the shit scared out of them on an otherwise complacent day. We'll call them sophomores. Most recent encounter with this sort of thing was a bunch of seemingly competent guys I went out with who put up one TR on a rabbit runner passed twice around a tree, and another on a single sling girthed 5' up a tree, with a slack backup (100' route none the less). These were solid 5.10 weekender types with respectably worn racks, the type of people you would ordinarily treat as trad partner prospects.
Moral of the story, I check unknown people's stuff pretty much no matter what. It's also a good dipstick for attitude, better to boulder the base alone than climb with assholes.
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graniteboy
Sep 27, 2005, 9:55 PM
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I generally accept their judgement....after watching one of them be lowered...BUT I've definitely topped out and seen piss poor anchoring rigs from folks who I was just dropping in on...and given them hell for being dumbasses. Like seeing the rope running thru a single non-locker up top.
Sheesh.
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jv
Sep 27, 2005, 9:59 PM
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My local cliff has many half-pitch routes so this is not an uncommon situation. In the past, if they appeared competent and no other red flags were present, I tied in and climbed, then looked the anchor over well before lowering off.
Lately I'm a little more suspicious because the appearance of competence can be deceiving. Last year I was at the top of a route preparing to rap off. A guy had walked up the backside and set up a solid toprope anchor on a nearby route. Back at the base, he put one of his partners on belay. She started climbing up under and then around to the left of an overhang, away from the anchor. The rope ran from her harness down to the overhang, back right horizontally several feet then up right to the anchor. In effect she was leading without a belay and the higher she went, the more rope was paid out.
I said, "You probably will want to adjust your rope . . ." Fortunately, she stopped and said, "Are we doing something wrong? We're new at this." So I had carte blanche to step in to flip the rope out from under the overhang so her strand ran straight up to the anchor. I suggested that she climb toward the anchor too. The belayer, the guy who set up the good anchor, looked at me blankly. I'm not sure he realized what they were doing wrong even after I fixed the problem. It gave me the willies to know that they did not understand such a simple concept.
Obviously, I'm not going to let a belayer pay out slack to me when I'm on toprope and climbing up. But for me it raises the question about the general level of competence of your average climber these days. In the old days, I never worried about that.
Everyone goes through a learning phase, and makes gumby mistakes sometimes. But it does seem to me that there are more clueless people at the crags now than there ever were in the days before climbing gyms. So, to answer your question, the next time I find myself in this situation, I'll take a little more time to assess the skills of the party before tying in. But I still don't want to hike all the way up the back to look at the anchor.
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slobmonster
Sep 27, 2005, 11:43 PM
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Scratch once, and sniff. If they smell, back away.
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jt512
Sep 27, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: Well, what say you? Huh? DMT
I always ask if their rope has been damaged by cat pee or their biners have been inspected for invisible microfractures.
-Jay
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vegastradguy
Sep 28, 2005, 12:03 AM
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if there are bolts at the top, i'd be less likely to inspect it. trad anchors? probably would, just because i'm paranoid.
truth be told, before you trust your life to it, you should at least have a look at it, eh?
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dirtineye
Sep 28, 2005, 12:09 AM
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I say,
Dingus is a crusty old troll, and a merry old troll and a crafty old troll was he,
He called for his drink and he called for his bowl and he called for his fiddlers three.
But since you trolled, and since I recently was around some young friends who had had an acredited top roping class, and the ycould not set a proper anchor even though they THOUGHT They had, my answer is, LOOK at it.
And just so you don't think I'm picking on the little guys, the worst anchors and TR setups I have seen have been made by climbers with over 20 years experience. So look at those too.
This thead begins to remind me why I hate to top rope.
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paganmonkeyboy
Sep 28, 2005, 12:13 AM
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It's not just the anchor - I was scamming belays at Ruth Lake last year, and led this sweet 5.9 called Peyote Trip on some other group's rope that they had all climbed on. I was being a weenie, all hung over and flopping like a n00b, just back from shoulder surgery - something in the back of my mind kept telling me to back off instead of go for anything sketchy, that no matter what I couldn't seem to let myself even come close to a lead fall on this dude's rope.
When I got to the chains finally and was threading the anchor to rap off, I noticed the rope core was damaged ten feet from where I had tied in - the rope folded over cleanly and was basically just sheath at that point - utterly broken...I've never seen anything quite like it. I'm pretty sure this would be right about where the rope hits the biner on a nice little ride off bolted rock. I tied it off in a butterfly and rapped down.
It turns out this wasn't even his rope - a friend had lent it to him so the group would have more than one to use that day. He and 4 of his friends had been using it all day...
- yeah - I'd check the anchor...
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curt
Sep 28, 2005, 12:24 AM
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In reply to: You are walking around the base of a cliff, partnerless. You happen upon a party of climbers top roping a route. A friendly hello is followed by an offer to let you use the TR. The other climbers are nice. They don't strike you as particularly gumby. They SEEM competent, as far as you can tell from 5 minutes of watching TR action. The anchors of the TR are easily inspected, you simply have to walk up there to do it. The question is... do you do it? Do you inspect the anchors in this sort of scenario? Do you insist upon it or is it just something you posture about on the internet but rarely put into practice in the real world? Or is it, bygawd, I'm not TRing on an anchor unless I see it with my own baby blues? Well, what say you? Huh? DMT
Were they using a foot belay? :wink:
Curt
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majid_sabet
Sep 28, 2005, 6:16 AM
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Few years ago I went to help and get a injured party out on some wall ( A2 5.10). A girl with broken ankle hanging 500 feet above ground, 1 pitch to the top. We set our own system on top and drop a rope to go down and fix her up. While we are running around passing stuff and fixing things on top, I noticed a rope fixed to a 2 inch in diameter old dead routs of small bush with small 1” tubular webbing. Then 1 meter from the end of the rope was anchored to a small metolious cam #2 in some crack (2” deep) near the edge of the boulder where the injured party was hanging . that was the back-up anchor.
Technically if the anchor was solid it would not be a great deal but the back-up anchor, instead of been fixed behind the bush to support the main anchor, it was set in front of the main anchor, meaning if the bush anchor failed it would added another 1 meter of slack to the back-up anchor which was only some silly #2 cam causing it to pop and fail all together. I touch the rope and it was heavy so I asked the friend of the injured climber what is this rope? He told me his girl friend was on it, hanging all this time, so I said ‘ is this your belay anchor? He replays “ohh THIS IS WHAT ALL CLIMBER USE HERE FOR AN ANCHOR ALL THE TIME AND WE JUST FOLLOW THEIR SYSTEM.
Any way cut the story short we backed up his PIECE OF SHIT anchor, and lowered her down, and during that time, I thought may be he wanted her dead from the start.
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dingus
Sep 28, 2005, 3:30 PM
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What if one of the dudes in that other party sorta looked and acted like John Long, or some other name brand climber?
Bet you wouldn't check then, would you?
I say it is damn easy to sit here on the internet and say, "I always inspect anchors."
Funny, in over 30 years of climbing, with plenty of that time being spent in the safety womb of top roping, I cannot recall a single time, not ONCE, did someone I offered a TR to actually take the trouble to inspect the anchors in advance.
Not once.
And too, I have approached totally unknown parties, teenagers in one case, and accepted top ropes uninspected as well. To echo one response, I reveived a nasty surprise after pulling over the top of one of them. Then I just shrugged and fixed things up.
Anyway, it is my guess that the vast majority of climbers will accept a TR from an 'experienced looking' group without taking the trouble to actually look at the anchors. Especially if they recognize someone in that group as a known climber, be it national or just the local hardwoman hero.
Comments?
DMT
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jt512
Sep 28, 2005, 3:45 PM
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In reply to: What if one of the dudes in that other party sorta looked and acted like John Long...
You mean hanging at the base telling epic mountain unicycle tales to a couple of babes from Hollywood? What does that have to do with the anchors?
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 28, 2005, 4:30 PM
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I would, and have climbed on unknown TR anchors. You seem to think that constitutes trust of the anchor. (and belayer) No way. Climbing the tr is often the easiest way to get in a position to inspect the anchor to see if it is worthy of trust.
I almost always inspect unknown anchors before I weight them. (taking a look at the anchor can give you an idea if you want to be belayed by those people)
This assumes that you are capable of being self-reliant.
So.
Watch the belayers. All of them, because you will often get stuck with the worst or the best belayer of the group.
It is generally a poor practice to trust an unknown factor. How "good" or "famous a climber is has little to do with how good a particular set up is. (think curt's foot belay)
Inspect the anchors. (either after doing the tr without falling, soloing a route to the side, or just walk up there.)
Live longer.
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olderic
Sep 28, 2005, 4:51 PM
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So what's your point (besides a good troll)?
That we intend to inspect the person not the gear?
That we don't always do all the things that we advise others to do?
Not exactly profound earth shattering news....
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dingus
Sep 28, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: I would, and have climbed on unknown TR anchors. You seem to think that constitutes trust of the anchor. (and belayer) No way.
Right, you are not trusting that anchor, nope, no way. In fact, you would have free soloed that route had they not hogged it with the top rope no doubt.
You may not have a lot of trust in that anchor, but you still tied the knot.
Your point about not wanting to fall till you get a peek is spot on though, been there, done that too.
Cheers ya salty bastard!
DMT
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bobruef
Sep 28, 2005, 5:00 PM
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I'm more impressed with climbers that check out my anchor before they climb on it. I'd be more apt to climb with and trust them that somebody who didn't take the time/effort.
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papounet
Sep 29, 2005, 12:17 PM
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I have accepted toprope offers from strangers, and I have kicked my self 2 or 3 times in 10 years of climbing for that as they had managed to mess up even bolted setup.
I did the same with people I climbed with for a year (in a gym setup) and I was throroughly unhappy about the anchor up there.
So on one hand, I think I treat "unknown anchor" as no-fall allowed route, so I would do it on routes I warm up on, but on the other hand I only interested in top ropes on routes I cannot lead.
So I am kind of stuck...
What I am more and more inclined to do is ask innocently: "and, by the way, how is the setup on top, I don't know or I can't exactly remember what are the options, what did you do ?"
To be totally honest, the answers I got were never precise , nor helpful enough to have me back off. I got some very strange looks instead.
A person who had not enough clues to set up a proper anchor wil not have the expertise to describe the setup in such a way you can ascertain its safety. And there are of course the mistakes (such as not locking the biner...).
So verbal questionning doesn't help much and walking up to the anchors is usually out of the question where I climb. no wonder I don't like toprope.......
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reg
Sep 29, 2005, 12:46 PM
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here's my little story: we're at the crag - we have our rope set up on a climb - others are also set up and everybody is friendly and offering to share. i'm tying into this groups rope (i new one of them from other days at this crag). i asked if all thought the anchor was solid? i was really lookin for a nod from the person i knew. one of his friends said that it was solid but "one of the tricams may have fallen out". this got me thinking. the guy i knew said that it was good and all rapped on it and he had climbed on it, yada yada - but i untied and thanked them for the offer. in retrospect i feel it probably was a good anchor but that voice in my head said it just wasn't worth it. when in doubt,,,,,
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markc
Sep 29, 2005, 1:41 PM
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At some of the areas I frequent, the approach is along the top of the crag. You have a chance to scope out anchors with hardly any extra effort. At sport crags, it's not uncommon that you can see the anchor from the ground. In other cases, it's less obvious. You may see a couple pieces of rope or webbing and a couple biners. From there, it's a question of going with your gut or making a trip up top to check things out for yourself.
If I had my gear with me (which I probably would in Dingus' scenario), I'd most likely offer to set up a nearby route and share. While doing so, I can check out the other group's setup without being confrontational. It also depends on the people offering to share. If it's people I've run into over the years, I may very well skip any inspection before climbing. If it's folks with shiny gear or a group of males in their late teens/early 20s, I'm going to give it a look every time. (No offense to the safe climbers in that demographic. I've seen some of those guys way too amped on Moutain Dew and way too short on experience.) Do I always practice what I preach? No, but it would be the safest course of action.
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