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kricir
Nov 11, 2005, 8:57 AM
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Wile this wasn't an accident, It definitely could of been. I Recently went bouldering at horsetooth res. (CO) to find two climbers top roping a short, moderate crack/roof thing. Before the climber set off, I noticed that the belayer was set up wrong. The belay device was hanging off of his locking biner, with the rope going through only the biner (no munter hitch or friction raps). Surly the belayer would fix this before he went up, It took me half a second from 30 ft away to see that his belay was not right, he must of been aware as well. To my horror, the climber went up, belayed only by biner and a hand. Maybe he knows what he’s doing, some strange old school technique no longer used, but then why would the belay device be there, hanging unused? The climber probably won’t fall anyway, this climb is easy enough, maybe a part of me wanted things to go wrong, just so I could say I was there and saw it. I didn't want to embarrass the belayer or myself by questioning his system, so I stayed quiet. They were probably wondering why I was watching instead of climbing myself. Half way across the roof crack traverse the climber fell, the rope pulled through the belayers hands, not having any means of friction to stop it. Luckily the climber was only about 10-15 ft off the ground, and was not hurt by the ground fall. I learned that sounding stupid or coming across as a safety Nazi is a small price to pay if It could prevent an accident. So If you out there see an accident waiting to happen, it’s your duty to do something about it, even if your wrong. Oh, and be aware of simple things like your belay set up, whether or not biners are properly locked, and if your harness is doubled back, no matter how experienced you are.
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overlord
Nov 11, 2005, 10:23 AM
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you definitely should have pointed out the mistake.
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king_rat
Nov 11, 2005, 12:44 PM
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In reply to: Maybe he knows what he’s doing, some strange old school technique no longer used
Perhaps a diplomatic solution in a situation like this, particularly if your not sure if you’re right, is to go over and just ask him about his belay technique, at best when the guy looks down and is forced to think about what he is doing he will realise his mistake. If it had been, some "old school technique”, then there is no harm done, he can explain it to you and you’ve learnt something new.
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dontfall
Nov 11, 2005, 1:45 PM
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In reply to: maybe a part of me wanted things to go wrong, just so I could say I was there and saw it.
:roll:
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dirtineye
Nov 11, 2005, 1:52 PM
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Yes, say something.
Say, "IF you mean to be using that belay device correctly, you'd better thread the rope throught it. If not, never mind."
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joshy8200
Nov 11, 2005, 2:16 PM
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Yep, you should have said something!
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billl7
Nov 11, 2005, 2:51 PM
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If I were grading your day I would say that you narrowly avoided an 'F' by posting the experience for others, likely those new to climbing, to learn they can take the bull by the horns - bravo!
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2005, 2:57 PM
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Would they have kicked your ass if you would have said something?
Embarrassment VS. a crippling fall, choose one.
I'm glad no-one was hurt.
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oldrnotboldr
Nov 11, 2005, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: some strange old school technique
Well, I'm a bit of an "old school" climber, and I sure don't know of any technique like what you described. The closest I can think of is a body belay only used when absolutely nothing else exists.
Absolutely say something. If the person(s) does not choose to listen, at least you tried.
In reply to: Oh, and be aware of simple things like your belay set up, whether or not biners are properly locked, and if your harness is doubled back, no matter how experienced you are.
Solid points to remember! Just last week I put a harness on and got busy setting up some stuff and my 7 year old daughter pointed out that my harness belt was not doubled back. A seemingly small point but truly very important. Sometimes we all neglect to slow down and double check things.
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gonz
Nov 11, 2005, 3:22 PM
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As alot of other folks can attest to, it's really hard to point out mistakes and incorrect setups to some people. Who knows, maybe this climbing/belayer would have been receptive to the advice, maybe they would have told you to F off. Either way whose loss is it?
I think it all boils down to how you approach the situation and make the suggestion. Try and do so in the least threatening way, and hopefully they'll take your advice.
And double checks should be done every single time you tie in or set up to belay, without question. Complanceny will get you killed in this sport!
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2005, 3:30 PM
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In reply to: it's really hard to point out mistakes and incorrect setups to some people. Who knows, maybe this climbing/belayer would have been receptive to the advice, maybe they would have told you to F off. Either way whose loss is it? I think it all boils down to how you approach the situation and make the suggestion. Try and do so in the least threatening way
I will repeat myself
Would they have kicked your ass if you would have said something?
Embarrassment VS. a crippling fall, choose one.
If some a@#hole tells you to f*&^ off, he will still be able to walk at the end of the day.
Ground falls can be very nasty, trust me.
You asked "whose loss is it", it's definitely not yours, so the end all definitive answer to this thread is YES, you should have said something.
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2005, 3:33 PM
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CASE CLOSED.
NO OTHER OPINIONS ARE VALID.
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markc
Nov 11, 2005, 3:49 PM
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If I see something that's acceptable but not the way I would do it, I'll let it go. If I see something I know is dangerous (whether it's something as immediate as this example or just evidence of bad habits and half-measures), I'll speak up.
My choice is selfish, and has little to do with how the other party will receive the criticism. I want to be able to go home and sleep well knowing that I did what I could to help out. If the person ignores me or becomes defensive, at least I made an attempt.
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markc
Nov 11, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: CASE CLOSED. NO OTHER OPINIONS ARE VALID.
With respect, I have to say statements such as the above really bother me on public forums. The case (or thread) isn't closed unless the thread is locked. Until that happens, someone can drag this thing back into the sunlight after 2 years if they wish (which isn't all that out of the ordinary).
While I agree with you, one could argue that it's not their obligation to inform others of their mistakes. They may suggest climbing is inherently dangerous, and partners should rely on buddy checks rather than the kindness of strangers. It's not my belief, but that doesn't make it invalid.
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singin_rocker
Nov 11, 2005, 4:07 PM
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Yeah, say something next time. I was taught to use an 8 incorrectly. I was very grateful when someone took the time to show me the right way. They were very forward but at least polite about it. Maybe they'll react in a negative way. Maybe they won't listen. That wouldn't be your fault or problem.
In reply to: The climber probably won’t fall anyway, this climb is easy enough, maybe a part of me wanted things to go wrong, just so I could say I was there and saw it.
Wow, that was a really random comment. From the way you wrote the rest of your post I think and hope you're not proud of that.
Hey, you learned and no one got killed. That's something to be happy about. I'm sure they learned too. The hard way is one of the most effective and yet not recommended ways to learn. I've been there.... too many times.
Take care,
Waylan
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2005, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: With respect, I have to say statements such as the above really bother me on public forums. The case (or thread) isn't closed unless the thread is locked. Until that happens, someone can drag this thing back into the sunlight after 2 years if they wish (which isn't all that out of the ordinary).
Did you really believe me? :shock:
I was just trying to make a point, which you yourself said you agree with.
What was your point? ...on second thought, NEVERMIND.
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markc
Nov 11, 2005, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: With respect, I have to say statements such as the above really bother me on public forums. The case (or thread) isn't closed unless the thread is locked. Until that happens, someone can drag this thing back into the sunlight after 2 years if they wish (which isn't all that out of the ordinary). Did you really believe me? :shock: I was just trying to make a point, which you yourself said you agree with. What was your point? ...on second thought, NEVERMIND.
I was attempting to politely state that your point is over the top and inaccurate. You did the equivalent of yelling (all caps), said the case is closed when it isn't, and you were dismissive of other views. While I may agree with your argument, I disagree with your debate tactics.
If you're suggesting that I should disregard your future posts as unbelievable, I'll make a note. I wasn't trying to engage in a pissing match. Happy climbing.
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gullwing19
Nov 11, 2005, 4:57 PM
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It's your responsibility to say something.
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2005, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: While I may agree with your argument, I disagree with your debate tactics. OR If you're suggesting that I should disregard your future posts as unbelievable, I'll make a note. .
Make up your mind dude.
Happy pissing.
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markc
Nov 11, 2005, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: While I may agree with your argument, I disagree with your debate tactics. OR If you're suggesting that I should disregard your future posts as unbelievable, I'll make a note. Make up your mind dude. Happy pissing.
Sorry, didn't you write:
In reply to: Did you really believe me? :shock:
You implied you shouldn't be believed, not me. This is getting old, and I don't really feel like going in circles with you. Feel free to keep spinning on your own.
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crimpandgo
Nov 11, 2005, 6:52 PM
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Maybe you could have asked "hey, is that a new way to belay? I have never seen that before?.."
The response would be interesting :)
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canrocker
Nov 11, 2005, 7:52 PM
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In situations like this, I'll let the climbers know if I see something that's out of whack. If they have any brains they'll listen to advice, as I would. If they want to be Ego-Man or King Macho Shit, screw them. Let them earn their Darwin Award, it'll be one less danger at the crag.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Nov 11, 2005, 8:03 PM
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I think you definetely should have done something, but how to manage a situation like that is tricky.
If you run over and yell out that the rope isn´t going through anything but the belay biner, you could 1) embarass the belayer (not a big deal AT ALL), 2) scare the climber off an "easy" route that he might have been able to complete (since he fell, I´ll guess he´s either a total n00b, a hold broke, or the climb wasn´t that easy).
I´d be worried about #2 more than anything else.
And once you had pointed out the mistake, what to do? Take the climber off belay and thread the device? Hold onto the rope with him in hopes of both of you being able to hold a fall? Threading the rope through your own device and then having that fool of a belayer let go of the rope?
I dunno, never been in this situation in real life, but I´d go with either 2 or 3 here...
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 11, 2005, 8:04 PM
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I think you definetely should have done something, but how to manage a situation like that is tricky.
If you run over and yell out that the rope isn´t going through anything but the belay biner, you could 1) embarass the belayer (not a big deal AT ALL), 2) scare the climber off an "easy" route that he might have been able to complete (since he fell, I´ll guess he´s either a total n00b, a hold broke, or the climb wasn´t that easy).
I´d be worried about #2 more than anything else.
And once you had pointed out the mistake, what to do? Take the climber off belay and thread the device? Hold onto the rope with him in hopes of both of you being able to hold a fall? Threading the rope through your own device and then having that fool of a belayer let go of the rope?
I dunno, never been in this situation in real life, but I´d go with either 2 or 3 here...
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villageidiot
Nov 11, 2005, 8:34 PM
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I was out climbing about a couple of months ago and I saw someone using an ATC belaying. The belayer had both hands off the rope (resting on his hips) for at least 30 seconds while I watching him. At that point he was giving the climber suggestions on how to move thru a part of the route. The climber was obviously completely new to climbing and was completely trusting the belayer, who had set up the top rope.
I said something to the belayer and he gave me a f*ck off look.
What do you do in such a situation, he is not the one going to get hurt?
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