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philbox
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Dec 7, 2005, 6:44 AM
Post #51 of 105
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Clausti, what I was demonstrating was the exception to the rule and how statistics cannot show the complete picture.
I would also like to state for the record clausti that you are far more even tempered and have held your ground with dignity in this debate. when you first came to community I could not say this. Well done girlfriend, your debating and interrelational social skills are improving beyond my wildest expectations.
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rufusandcompany
Dec 7, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #52 of 105
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In reply to: i could handle boondock
Delusion is a formidable foe.
In reply to: in all fairness, i was exactly as unclear as phil was in my statement. i forgot to say "on average" and he forgot to say *some* instead of "most" or "all."
You were every bit as clear about your message, although you somehow fail to understand what that message was.
In reply to: both statements that you seem to find issue with, however, are demographic fact.
I'll give you another clue. Do you always view human beings by demographics and as statistics?
In reply to: level of education shows a strong positive correlation with average income.
I'm sorry, Clausti. but this sentence is complete nonsense, and it proves that you have much to learn about life. Go travel the world, and spend time with thousands of people outside of your social group, and then we'll have this conversation again.
In reply to: i will not answer this again.
Please don't! I heard you clearly the first time.
As for your comment about the correlation of education to numbers of offspring, there is a reason for that, and it doesn't necessarily equate to failure. It is called insuring the chances of survival. Those so called lesser educated people, to whom you refer, aren't as dumb as you might think they are.
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stickclipper
Dec 7, 2005, 7:09 AM
Post #53 of 105
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In reply to: Of course there are those with mental problems who are less fortunate than ourselves who need support but I have no pity for those who will not help themselves.
This is tiresome rhetoric, don't ya think?
The issue of welfare is far more complex. To toss it aside with comments of drugs or laziness is foolish.
Is that the case for some? Sure. Many? Maybe.
Racism. Discrimination. Inequality.
There are some people who can triumph over the face of all obstacles. They should be saluted. Are you one of these? Or did you have a strong family as a child? A strong peer group? Some other powerful influence?
There are kids in every ghetto of America who have almost no opportunity. To suggest that they fail out of sheer laziness is pure idiocy.
Numerous press grabbing programs have risen from inner city areas. The Harlem Knights (a famous chess program).... A Calculus teacher in LA who got every kid to make a 4 or a 5 on their AP test after no one had made such a score in 15 years at that school.
Why does this happen? Is is because, suddenly, these kids had the desire to help themselves? No. It is because they latch onto an opportunity and drive after it with far more hunger than most of their peers in middle class America.
I grew up in a small Northeast Texas town and saw the great disparity between whites and blacks.... So I speak with a degree of personal observation... not just from reading political propaganda.
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rufusandcompany
Dec 7, 2005, 7:19 AM
Post #55 of 105
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Where is that hand-slapping-forehead emoticon when you need one. Did you hear a word that I said. "The period connotes a rhetorical question, so do bother answering." Come back and we'll talk after you've gained some life experience.
Enjoy the journey, and I suggest that you keep your mind open. Most real life occurs beyond what appears on the surface.
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stickclipper
Dec 7, 2005, 7:23 AM
Post #56 of 105
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In reply to: As for your comment about the correlation of education to numbers of offspring, there is a reason for that, and it doesn't necessarily equate to failure. It is called insuring the chances of survival. Those so called lesser educated people, to whom you refer, aren't as dumb as you might think they are.
This is a good point.
One that France is learning right now, actually. The worn out core of European Christendom is not even reproducing at replacement levels there. And the Muslim population is exploding. And they are angry.
There are reasons for all of the arsons and riots.
This is what happens when the upper crust writes off those on the bottom... refuses to offer opportunity.
Excellent one page article on this on the last page of Nov 21 issue of TIME.
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chitlinsconcarne
Dec 7, 2005, 7:26 AM
Post #57 of 105
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Q: How many emo kids does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None! Those pussies can cry in the dark!
Where did I hear that? Can't remember , but it made me laugh. Then again, I'm easily amused.
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Deleted
Dec 7, 2005, 8:18 AM
Post #58 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: first of all, i think if you're considereing the educational system in this... you have to ask if basketball is, in fact, a "contribution to society." if you assume that atheletics are contributions to society on par with the science that gives you purer food and water and medicine, than fine. some of my bitterness towards the vast difference in respect placed on pro atheletes and scientists came out in this post.
I just thought I'd say one little thing that popped into my head with this, and it is an observation that is not aimed at you clausti.
I'm in California, and coming from the midwest I really notice this sort of thing. A sort of disdain for sports, hunting, fastfood, TV, or even religion. You get that up-turned nose for not shopping at Trader Joe's or god forbid, you shop at Wal-mart. It is fine if you don't like sports, but it often comes off as contempt for the culture of the vast majority of people in this country (primarily the working class that most liberals say they are trying to help).
Note: I'm generalizing, and do realize that this is not a blanket statement that can be said of all Californians.
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clausti
Dec 7, 2005, 8:36 AM
Post #59 of 105
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In reply to: Q: How many emo kids does it take to change a light bulb? A: None! Those sissies can cry in the dark! Where did I hear that? Can't remember , but it made me laugh. Then again, I'm easily amused.
the correct answer to this is "none, they cry i the dark, break it, and cut themselves with the shards. "
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e_free
Dec 7, 2005, 11:42 AM
Post #60 of 105
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In reply to: I'm in California, and coming from the midwest I really notice this sort of thing. A sort of disdain for sports, hunting, fastfood, TV, or even religion. You get that up-turned nose for not shopping at Trader Joe's or god forbid, you shop at Wal-mart. It is fine if you don't like sports, but it often comes off as contempt for the culture of the vast majority of people in this country (primarily the working class that most liberals say they are trying to help). Note: I'm generalizing, and do realize that this is not a blanket statement that can be said of all Californians.
[hijack]
no need to apoligize. as a cali culture, we are generally like this.
i didnt really realize that until i moved away. it is a humbling experience to be tossed from culture to culture and constantly adapt.
but i also realized that the culture i live in also considers itself superior in completely different aspects. i think every culture has a subtle "we do it right/we are better." what it realyl means is that it is familiar. it might even be a good way to do things. but when its always done this way and everybody does it this way, society tens to say its the only and the best way - nonverbally.
heres some interesting observations abut differences in dinner.
1. in cali, with middle-upper class white folks, if offered food in the house of a mere aquaintance, you say no because you want to be polite and dont want to inconvenience them. convenience is valued here. if youre going to donner at their house with advance warning, you ask if you should bring something. you show up punctually, only bring what is asked, and stay late to help clean up. generic gift: bottle of wine. keep your shoes on at all times, this is not your house.
2. with a black family from the inner city, food appears in front of you and you eat it and like it. they arent rich, and youre not better than they are. resources are valued here. if invited with notice, you ask if you should bring something to a party. they say thank you, but no. you dont bring anything because to do so is an insult, as if what they have is not enough. you show up early and help cook. generic gift: something small for the kids. dont take your shoes off, you dont knwo where theyve been.
3. in hawaii, with hawaiians, they offer you food. they pick up your plate for you (unless you can snatch it first) and walk you through each item. do you want kalua pig? laulau? lomilomi salmon? poi? haupia? you say yeas and eat some of each while joking with the extended family (which you are then adopted in to). relationship is valued here. you look happy no matter how old the poi is. with advance notice, you are invited to dinner. you ask if you should bring something they say yes, you bring what they asked for, and show up 30 minutes late (on time). they say no, you bring dessert. generic gift: lei. do not wear your shoes in the house, it is an insult. shoes are for work and home is not such a place.
in subculture, if you go to my grandma's house, you will eat. period.
"are you hungry?"
"no, i just ate"
"i'll make you a samwhich"
"no, really, im fine"
"youre so skinny. have a meatball"
"im not hungry grandma"
"here's a nice slice of pie for you"
[/hijack]
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boondock_saint
Dec 7, 2005, 1:32 PM
Post #62 of 105
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Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable. I worked at a social services center for refugees and a lot of the people that were working there (americans) had master's degrees and were making about 40k
I have a friend who is 23, dropped out of HS in the 10th grade. Has a house, a 3 car garage (with 3 cars in the garage). A '79 Corvette, a '69 Chevelle that runs 10s in 1/4 mile and an A to B Chevy Lumina.
My friends Uncle. may or may not have HS degree. Runs a barge company downtown st louis, averages about 3 to 5 million a year.
Another friend's father. HS. Degree. Drives an Acura NSX. has a 3 story house built into the side of a cliff with a large indoor pool.
Out of all my friends I know one guy who has a master's and is doing REALLY well. Other than that grad school really doesn't seem to mean dick as far as your worth is concerned.
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thorne
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Dec 7, 2005, 2:23 PM
Post #63 of 105
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In reply to: Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable.
Of course there are exceptions. Generally speaking, higher education translates into higher income.
Do you have anything other than anecdotes to support your opinion? Perhaps, a single study.
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thorne
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Dec 7, 2005, 2:30 PM
Post #64 of 105
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In reply to: I would also like to state for the record clausti that you are far more even tempered and have held your ground with dignity in this debate.
Kudos to Clausti.
It's clear who behaved like an adult in this thread...
and who didn't. :roll:
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boondock_saint
Dec 7, 2005, 2:50 PM
Post #65 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable. Of course there are exceptions. Generally speaking, higher education translates into higher income. Do you have anything other than anecdotes to support your opinion? Perhaps, a single study.
Higher Education does open many doors for you. You will make more money and go further than the guy with the B.S. degree (most likely). And I'm not saying that people shouldn't get master's degrees and Ph.Ds. My point is that higher education simply puts a little bit above the bottomfeeders in the corporate ranking. A master's degree won't in anyway ensure that you make above 150k a year.
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dingus
Dec 7, 2005, 3:13 PM
Post #66 of 105
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Breeding permits eh? You mean, like the Nazi's, right?
DMT
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tradman
Dec 7, 2005, 3:14 PM
Post #67 of 105
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In reply to: Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable.
In reply to: Higher Education does open many doors for you. You will make more money and go further than the guy with the B.S. degree
Uuuh, what?!?!
:?
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thorne
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Dec 7, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #68 of 105
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In reply to: My point is that higher education simply puts a little bit above the bottomfeeders in the corporate ranking.
What a lovely sentiment. Do you think people who work for corporations are bottom feeders?
Is this like saying all union workers are scum because of the actions of a few corrupt union officials?
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clausti
Dec 7, 2005, 3:30 PM
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In reply to: Breeding permits eh? You mean, like the Nazi's, right? DMT
more like enders game.
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dingus
Dec 7, 2005, 3:41 PM
Post #70 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: Breeding permits eh? You mean, like the Nazi's, right? DMT more like enders game.
When my wife was pregnant with our first child (no permit!), she came up positive on that bogus downs syndrome test. So they set her up for a genetic screening, to make sure.
In advance of sticking a 10 inch needle into my wife's belly, we were required to sit down with a Genetic Counseler. I'm serious, that was her title.
Now what she did was splain the whole downs thing, and what the test was actually looking for, how it would go down, etc.
But prior to the entrance of our very own Genetic Counseler, we sat there in this office, speaking wtih pathetic affected german accents,
"Your Genetic Papers please!"
"Vee vill remove that defective zygote from your voom and you vill thank us for it ven vee are finished!"
We had tears in our eyes with Ms. Genetics showed up. She must have thought we were whacked as we were laughing hysterically when she came in.
I hope to every non-existence god that has ever cursed humanity, that government NEVER intrudes on us in this facist way. I would take up arms I think, to prevent it. Way to Animal Farm for comfort.
DMT
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dingus
Dec 7, 2005, 3:46 PM
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Clausti, I think it would be more like Gattica than Enders Game.
DMT
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Dec 7, 2005, 3:48 PM
Post #72 of 105
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In reply to: A master's degree won't in anyway ensure that you make above 150k a year.
More data on income/education.
http://www.census.gov/...2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
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boondock_saint
Dec 7, 2005, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable. In reply to: Higher Education does open many doors for you. You will make more money and go further than the guy with the B.S. degree Uuuh, what?!?! :?
haha yeah I know my point is confusing.
ok master's degree = you're a bit higher up on the food chain than the worker bee.
not to insult any group or job but just for the sake of argument let's establish a ladder
Janitor with no highschool degree -> Secretary with h.s. degre -> engineer with b.s. degree -> engineer with masters degree ------> director of whatever ---- > director of the director ------ > exective ------> CEO/President
So that's a very very rough layout of positions. My point being that from the janitor to the engineer with the masters degree, they are all just expendable workerbees in the beehive. then you got the jump in position and pay when you get to the executive level. Those people at the top don't seem to usually have Ph.Ds in astrophysics ....
that's my point ...
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rufusandcompany
Dec 7, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #74 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: One of the best documented relationships in economics is the link between education and income: higher educated people have higher incomes. Clausti, the link you posted shows very well that correlation between lack of education and income. As did the vast pile of documents I found when I did a basic Google search. The fact that Rufus dismissed you without tackling your point or critiquing your reference is just his way of sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" because he knows that you're right and he's completely wrong and is embarrassed about it.
Good morning, Mr. Ad Hom
I dismissed none of it. I have read those stats over and over. Most read citizens have. They have nothing to do with the point that I was trying to make, that a few others managed to get. Clausti was making a one dimensional evaluation of people, and I tried to open her mind to the fact that there is more to these situations than what she proposed from stats.
I don't know why I bother explaining this to you, because I would almost wager cash that you are no longer able to debate with me without prejudice. I would like to think that I am wrong.
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clausti
Dec 7, 2005, 4:02 PM
Post #75 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: Yeah the whole masters degree = more money is pretty laughable. In reply to: Higher Education does open many doors for you. You will make more money and go further than the guy with the B.S. degree Janitor with no highschool degree -> Secretary with h.s. degre -> engineer with b.s. degree -> engineer with masters degree ------> director of whatever ---- > director of the director ------ > exective ------> CEO/President that's my point ...
no, actually that was an example of *my* point.
and note, i didnt say that to do well you have to have a phd in astrophysics. i said more education correlates to a higher income.
'cuase wouldnt you say that on your hierachry that those towards the CEO end make more money? and also TEND to have a higher level of education? that is called correlation.
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