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fluxus
Nov 30, 2005, 9:56 PM
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What you did above was to essentially outline all the classic questions concerning power-endurance.
For my money there are often not specific answers to the "which is better?" part of the questions. First, because no research has been done in climbing to evaluate the effects of the various methodologies. As you know there are many vairables at work in climbing and even when we are training power endurance in climbing, its not exactly the same as doing so in sprinting since climbing is not a repetitive movement sport, nor is the intensity of movement perfectly consistent.
anyway here are some thoughts:
Hard to say, I think different climbers have vastly different ability to train PE. Myself I could train PE 4 - 6 months at a time without over training or finding my limit. I think the real question is: what's the minimum amount of time necessary to make a gain in PE that can effect red point or on-sight level. I think the answer to this is 4 - 6 weeks. with a minimum of 10 - 12 workouts in that time.
In reply to: 2) Should one add more volume over the period or up the grade? I mean which one is better (grades showing just to clear things out): - 6 times 7b ( let´s say onsight level) , 5 minute pauses progressing to 10 times 7b, 4 minute pauses or - 6 times 7b, 5 minute pauses progressing to 6x7b+, 5 minute pauses.
This is an interesting question, but I don't know if there is an objective answer to it. When doing PE I've used both vairables in conjunction with one another. When I am able to start significantly cutting the rest for a climber at their current level I take it as a sign that they are ready to move on to the next level with a slightly longer rest. It really depends on what the climber's goals are and where they are in relation to that goal. For example lets say a climber wants to repoint a sustained 5.13c (8b+) and their current PE workout consists of laps on 5.11c/d (6b/b+) then my goal would be to raise the difficulty level of their sets to get them up to running laps on 5.12c/d (7b+/c) because a sustained 8b+ will more than likely consists of a significant amount of climbing at that level.
In reply to: 3. How should the workout load be calculated? How many sets would do it and should one be completely trashed in the end or leave something for the next time?
another important question. The number of sets determines where the climber is working in their PE range. A small number of sets, say 4, will favor the "power" side of PE, if the goal is to be close to failure at the end of the last set. If the number of sets is large, say 10, then the intensity will need to be much lower and it will favor the "endurance" side of PE. This is obvious to you I'm sure but its important because my experience suggests that there is less cross over between these realms than I would like there to be. The climber who does nothing but super hard 4X4s is going to be ready for a different type of performance than the climber who trains by doing nothing but laps on routes. Even (believe it or not) if the work and rest durations are closely matched! (there is a good reason for this but I won't go into it.)
In reply to: 4. How many times should one do anaerobic endurance in a week? Should the strength, power and ARC be kept along at maintenance level?
Depends, how much experience does the climber have? are they injury prone? Do they tend to be good at recovering? A 5.13 / 5.14 climber who recovers well, is injury free, and reasonably fit can do 2 sets of 4X4s in a day 2 times per week and use ARCing as a warm-up and warm down. a 5.11a weekend warrior can probably do 2 PE workouts in a week. But they sure as hell better warm-down correctly because if they don't then you have to listen to all the whining about how sore they are, etc. While maintaining the local aerobic endurance level is easy in this phase, balancing all three is more difficult. I think its best to reduce the amount of hard bouldering the climber is doing for the sake of giving tendons a break. I would back off a V grade or two and work on doing a higher volume of submaximal bouldering.
In reply to: 5. Is it better to do the same grade many times or lower the grade as one is getting more tired: - 6x7b or - 7b+, 7b, 7a+, 7a, 6c+, 6c
they are actually 2 different workouts in my mind, I think using vairable intensity in 4X4s leads to faster gains, and if you want a great workout you put the hardest problem last! (that is if the climber can handle it) When doing laps on routes I tend to keep the intensity the same for each lap but if you wanted to vary it you could but I would keep the difficulty range fairly narrow and only put the easiest climb last if you didn't think the climber could handle it any other way.
In reply to: 7. You said before that if one is concentrating more in onsighting, the work period should be over 5 minutes. Should one also climb slower and simulate onsight climbing that way?
The reason for the longer work period is that on-sights often take a climber 2 - 3 times longer than a red point. Slowing down would be good, since the speed of movement means a great deal in climbing and the motor density of an on-sight is so different from that of a red point. it may be hard to slow the climber down enough though. That's why I've often had a climber doing laps on top rope clip back into ALL the directionals on a route, even if they don't need them. This forces them to stop, unclip and then keep moving, which slows them down.
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jto
Dec 1, 2005, 6:24 PM
Post #102 of 127
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thanks a lot mate. very valuable info. some of it was quite clear to me but it´s always good to have others backing me up.
cheers and don´t lose your nerves with the book. you´ve done your part. and seems like you have a good market on it already :) it´s great waiting for something great, as we say here :)
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climb1212
Dec 6, 2005, 6:49 PM
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I’ve probably read through this thread four or five times during the past year gathering what knowledge I can about training. My questions/comments are not surprisingly related to ARC, and I think they are new questions. For background, I began training in February of 2005. I completed my first 4 month macro-cycle, during which my ARC looked like this:
4 weeks ARC: This period consisted of 9 full hours on the wall traversing at low-intensity – generally one or two thirty-minute sessions of traversing at the gym. I included a couple easy trad and sport days with multiple laps on easy terrain, as well.
I completed this phase for several reasons. The first being I had not climbed consistently for five months and felt it important to ease into training. The second was to improve technique and footwork. The third was the natural assumption that ARC contributes to the foundation of an endurance base.
I am now in my second macro-cycle and two weeks into the ARC phase. Because it is winter and I have no school, I have already doubled the amount of ARC time on the wall and will increase my volume of ARC at least threefold during the phase. I have completed my second week of what I initially planned to be a 4 week phase. After reading the commentary on ARCing by Fluxus, Wyomingclimber, and Rockprodigy, I am still stuck with a question.
First, by performing ARC workouts, are the goals to increase the level at which one can ARC during the ARC phase, or is the purpose to primarily develop/hone one’s technique while providing a base for the transition into the HYP phase, or both? The reason is that I don’t believe I am really increasing my ARC level during ARC phase, but I can see the other values of ARC, which is why I think dedicating at least a portion of time to pure ARC is good. Still, when I begin the ARC phase at around 5.10-5.10+, I don’t think I can ARC at 5.11 by the end of the ARC phase.
And, should one expect to see improvement in their ARC levels during the ARC phase, or should that improvement be gauged by the following macro-cycle’s ARC level?
I wonder because my intention when ARCing is not generally to raise my ARC level but develop better footwork/technique and lay a base fitness foundation for transitioning my fingers and body into the more demanding HYP phase. However, I would love to raise my ARC level, though do not know if I am doing so during my ARC phase. At the same time, if we begin ARCing in a ‘valley’ following our peak/regeneration phase, then is that actually a good time to assess one’s improvement in ARC? Is an increased ARC level the result of consistent periodized macro-cycles or the result of the specific ARC training phase?
Hopefully those makes sense and forgive me if the questions seem redundant or ill-informed (as I am not a training guru).
Also, for those who do hangboard training at home but don’t have a personal wall, do you ARC before or after those sessions? Because the most I can do is light cardio, unless I go to the gym before and then after my workout.
Comments or suggestions?
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rockprodigy
Dec 7, 2005, 3:20 AM
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Eric,
One of the goals of ARCing should be to increase your ARC level, but you need to be realistic. If you could increase your ARC level a whole number grade in one month, then we would all be climbing 5.26 by now. It takes a lot of time. According to the Law of Diminishing Returns, you should have your greatest ARC gains (in theory) the "younger" you are in your training life. You are just starting, so I suspect you have made gains, but since it's so hard to measure, how do we know?
I recommend ARC'ing after your hangboard workout. This follows the paradigm that you should start with the most intense workout first. Now, I usually warm up for 30 minutes before a hangboard workout as well, so you could call that ARC, but a warmup has different objectives than an ARC workout. (In fact, Yaniro advocates a "full" warmup before ARCing)
My understanding of capillarity is that you can increase your capilarity over your lifetime, and every ARC workout you do contributes to that. However, you can also increase it over a short time period (i.e. it ebbs and flows according to how much you have trained it recently, but hopefully the "ebb" level gets higher and higher throughout your lifetime of training it).
That's what my Cross Country coach used to say anyway, but I'm not sure if that applies to rock climbing.
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sidepull
Dec 7, 2005, 11:47 PM
Post #105 of 127
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rockprodigy, what is your warmup routine like? is it different if you're going to be hangboarding?
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rockprodigy
Dec 8, 2005, 2:16 AM
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My warmup for an indoor workout is mostly just traversing. I gradually increase the intensity throughout the warmup, which usually takes 30 min, ending with doing some boulder problems that I have sussed, but are still hard. I will also do some unweighted hangs and pullups on the hangboard just before the workout to ensure that I am warmed up.
Finally, for every grip position I train on the hangboard, I do three sets, and the first set is another "warmup" for that grip position because I do a lot lower weight than I do on the subsequent sets...to ease into it.
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tobym
Mar 11, 2006, 12:08 PM
Post #107 of 127
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For those who know, how effective is higher intensity anaerobic training at improving capilarity, as described by EH:
http://www.nicros.com/...ndurance_part1.shtml
compared with ARCing;
as I was under the impression doing high intensity reps with short intervals, was unlikely to ^ capilarity, just increase lactate tolerance etc, just a bit confused :?
Sorry if the question is a repetition of an earlier one.
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tobym
Mar 15, 2006, 10:05 AM
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Nobody? I guess it was probably a crap point, made badly. :(
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tobym
Mar 15, 2006, 12:21 PM
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nobody?
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rockprodigy
Mar 15, 2006, 3:47 PM
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I guess I don't understand your point in even asking that question.
If you're hoping that you can skip ARC training, and just train anaerobically all the time, I think that is a bad idea.
In my experience, anaerobic training can only be sustained for a short period of time...maybe four weeks at the longest. I think it would be a big mistake to try to train that way all the time. My guess is it would create a downward spiral in performance.
On the other hand, Capillarity can be trained constantly, and since the benefits are long term (as opposed to anaerobic training), you have a lot to gain by doing it.
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fluxus
Mar 16, 2006, 12:43 AM
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Anaerobic endurance training is not going to have much of an effect on cap. You need to do longer duration workouts in which the muscles stay below the anaerobic thershold.
Eric's take on endurance is, in my opinion confusing, and incorrect. He frequently writes as if there is no such thing as local areobic endurance, or that it has little relation to climbing performance.
If all you train is anaerobic endurance, its quite possible to be the 5.13 red point climber who nonetheless gets pumped on 5.10, and who has trouble with on-sights, and who is loath to get on longer routes of any difficulty.
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rockprodigy
Mar 16, 2006, 6:32 PM
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fluxus...I think what you mean to say is... a "boulderer".
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athletikspesifik
May 15, 2006, 4:43 AM
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Is this to suggest that boulderers don't have endurance? Sharma/Graham/Nicole/Raether may disagree. How are you defining endurance?
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jto
May 15, 2006, 6:25 AM
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I wouldn´t define sharma or graham as boulderers. both climb a lot routes too. nicole is nowadays pretty much a boulderer and I think he wouldn´t be able to climb an endurance type 9a (5.15a) straight away but after a special phase on routes I think he would hit what ever grade he likes :D
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athletikspesifik
May 15, 2006, 12:53 PM
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From the articles I've read, I would regard sharma/graham/andy raether/fred nicole (bain de sang - 14d)as mainly boulderers. But, I think you're correct that after a special phase of AE - these guys can send any sport route. That is because climbing at your physical limit is largely anaerobic (Watts et al). While no physical activity only utilizes one energy pathway, climbing is mainly glycolytic in energy consumption. Is that to say that a higher VO2Max or increased Capillilarization won't help? No, I'm not saying that, but I think all the emphasis on ARC is largely unfounded. Is it without merit? No, I'm not saying that either. I think from a movement/warm up/cool down aspect, it's a valid activity. But ARC is based on aerobic sport periodization, of which, moves at one's limit in this sport, is not. Forearm endurance is largely a factor of maximal voluntary strength contraction and the percentage of contraction each hold extracts from your reserve.
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sidepull
May 16, 2006, 1:56 AM
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alternatives to ARC?
Okay, I've brought this up before but I want to bring it up again because I'm about to start another training cycle and I really want to be as effective as possible.
ARCing as described by Fluxus, RockProdigy, or Goddard/Neumann is not going to happen. Yes, it's a choice I've made, but I just can't stand paying a gym and the nearest outdoor bouldering is one hour away.
I do have the following "potential" alternatives:
1) home woodie (4' x 8', 60 degree angle, systems design)
2) hangboard
3) gyro ball
4) rowing machine (at student rec center as well as assisted pullup machine and other weight equipment)
Is there any possible way to use these tools instead of 30 continuous minutes on the wall? For example, if I understand it, the goal is not to get a pump (or at most, get a slight pump). So what if I did 1 problem per minute for 30 minutes on my woodie?
I'd rather not do ARCing on the hangboard. I tried that last fall by putting a scale below the board and only taking off limited weight. My shoulders really don't like it and it's really boring.
I've recently begun rowing and I really enjoy it. It seems to work similar muscles although not the lats as much as climbing because you aren't doing much vertical pulling. Could I create a circuit and row 5 minutes then do assisted pullups, abs, etc., and work all the muscles you would in doing conventional ARC?
I'm just looking for options and would really appreciate some creativity from those in the know. Thanks!
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jto
May 16, 2006, 6:12 AM
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well. I do just that; hangboard and door frame ARCing nowadays. I used to do some of it indoors but now I like more being outside. I have a hangboard above my livingroom door and the time flies quite nicely when watching tv and playing around with the board.
the bad thing of course is that I get no tech training and it´s hard to measure progress, but I decided to forget these and just concentrate on training the local aerobic stuff. I´ve noticed a good amount of progress in my endurance and I can recuperate faster on a shakeout during a hard redpoint. I´ve been training so long I know it´s true and not just a thought.
last week looked like this:
mo:
- outdoor bouldering around 4-8 moves
- ARC on a hangboard for 30-60 minutes zzz... :)
tu:
- chins and ab work
- indoor bouldering AE 3x3-3½ minutes and 2x6-7 minutes. rest times equal to work.
we:
- weightlifting for upper and lower body except back
- easier outdoor routes for tech only
th:
- chins and ab work
- ARC on a hangboard for 30-60 minutes zzz... :)
fr:
- rest
sa:
- hard redpointing outdoors
su:
- hard redpointing outdoors ( I´d rest on monday).
cheers
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jt512
May 16, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: well. I do just that; hangboard and door frame ARCing nowadays. I used to do some of it indoors but now I like more being outside. I have a hangboard above my livingroom door and the time flies quite nicely when watching tv and playing around with the board. the bad thing of course is that I get no tech training and it´s hard to measure progress, but I decided to forget these and just concentrate on training the local aerobic stuff. I´ve noticed a good amount of progress in my endurance and I can recuperate faster on a shakeout during a hard redpoint. I´ve been training so long I know it´s true and not just a thought. last week looked like this: mo: - outdoor bouldering around 4-8 moves - ARC on a hangboard for 30-60 minutes zzz... :) tu: - chins and ab work - indoor bouldering AE 3x3-3½ minutes and 2x6-7 minutes. rest times equal to work. we: - weightlifting for upper and lower body except back - easier outdoor routes for tech only th: - chins and ab work - ARC on a hangboard for 30-60 minutes zzz... :) fr: - rest sa: - hard redpointing outdoors su: - hard redpointing outdoors ( I´d rest on monday). cheers
Climbing 6 days a week? That would leave me injured after about 3 weeks.
Jay
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adklimber
May 16, 2006, 3:08 PM
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Sidepull,
I assume you have done periodization before, and ARCing was one of the phases, right? So what did you do for your last periodization schedule for this phase? I am also interested in your results, care posting?
I think your ideas are creative and good. We know that training for rock climbing is in its infancy and new methods are being introduced every day. I say go for it, you seem to have a good grasp of what ARCing is, and this is the most vital thing.
Out of curiosity, what do your phases look like? Any adjustments from your last training cycle?
I just got off my first periodization program, and I am in the two weeks rest phase now (much needed!). I am currently studying The Self-Coached Climber by Fluxus, and am very intrigued. This summer I will be doing more experienced based training outlined in the SCC. However, periodization will be in effect this winter, mainly because of my work schedule.
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rockprodigy
May 16, 2006, 3:48 PM
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I don't have any facts to back this up, but my feelings are as follows:
The greatest benefits to ARC'ing are technique related, especially if the rest of your training involves lots of non-movement-specific activities such as hangboard, campus board, system board or weightlifting. If you are using those tools, then the only dedicated training time that involves actual climbing is when you ARC. If that is the case, then you really need to ARC by climbing.
The foream muscle(s) is extremely complicated. I'm very skeptical that an exercise like rowing (which features a single grip position that is almost never experienced on rock) would have any benefits for local forearm capilarity as it is needed for rock climbers. It might be helpful for other muscle groups, but I doubt it is helpful for your forearms. Maybe lash some metolius rock rings on there so you can crimp the oars?
You say you have a woodie? You can ARC on the woodie, but you may need to create a place to put your feet so it is not so overhanging.
This statement is strange to me:
In reply to: Yes, it's a choice I've made, but I just can't stand paying a gym and the nearest outdoor bouldering is one hour away.
When I first started training, I was a Cadet at the US Air Force Academy...I had to sneak off base to go to a climbing gym, risking severe punishment. Later, I moved to Ogden, Utah which had no gym...I drove an hour each way to "Rockreation" in Salt Lake City during the height of the highway construction for the Winter Olympics all so I could ARC through hoards of angry bouldering dudes and dudettes who gave me the evil eye every time I passed in front of them during my 30 minute session. I'm not sure what my point is here, but I think you should consider your level of commitment. How can you be motivated enough to hang on a hangboard (boring!) but not be willing to pay for a climbing gym?
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jto
May 16, 2006, 6:21 PM
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I agree with rockprodigy about ARC being very important in building a good technique. My version of ARC is done only for capillarity as I get and want to climb outside a lot and train my tech there. Pure indoor ARCing is just way too boring to be done during the season. I can keep up and even develope my endurance with my hangboard ARCing and train my other abilities elsewhere.
jt512,
Me too if I would do all the workouts hard. Today I did six routes that were very easy for me (~5.10) and had fun in the perfect crisp weather with birds singing and sun shining. Cleaned and opened three new routes. That was so great!
The purpose other than pure enjoyment was to train technique and to speed up the recovery from the hard AE session yesterday.
If I would be doing hard bouldering or redpointing I would climb only 3-4 times a week absolute max. In that case I would shorten my hangboard ARCing down to 15-20 minutes and keep them easier. There would be 1-2 of them in a week and wouldn´t be counted as climbing. I would do them in the evening after the bouldering or maybe the next morning if I have time. Just a recovery thing, nothing more.
This kind of phase will be coming after 6 weeks after I build up my endurance and anaerobic endurance a bit more for some redpointing. After the strength and power phase I´d return to this described endurance phase. During that I would do bouldering at least once a week to maintain strength. Too much ARCing and I´d lose all the power in a matter of seconds :)
A lot about me but I feel so good about a lot of thing right now. Cheers!
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sidepull
May 16, 2006, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: I agree with rockprodigy about ARC being very important in building a good technique. My version of ARC is done only for capillarity as I get and want to climb outside a lot and train my tech there. Pure indoor ARCing is just way too boring to be done during the season. I can keep up and even develope my endurance with my hangboard ARCing and train my other abilities elsewhere.
This is pretty similar to my situation.
Jto - could you explain your routine for ARCing on the hangboard?
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jto
May 16, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Well... it isn´t really that scientifical. I hang on holds for 5-15 secs arms bend or straight simulating climbing moves. No particular movement training here. Just adding some variation to the session. I usually hang with both arms to get the same amount of training time and less rest.
Sometimes I hang harder and rest 2-3 secs between holds (a quick shake) but usually I go on and on from a hang to a different hang. Anyway I´ll stay under the anaerobic threshold ~95% of the time. If I ARC too easily I can´t build up the endurance in the fast cells. That´s why I usually make the session a bit harder towards the end. This way the already taxed slow cells have to give up some work to the faster ones. This a fact used a lot in other endurance sports.
I use a chair under the board to take weight off or even stand on the floor and lay back. No scale or whatsoever. I could have one on the floor and then try to keep it within certain limits but we´ll see. This could add a possibility to be more accurate in measuring the progress.
Anyway I measure the progress by how I feel. It´s been quite easy so far. Hang longer, a bit harder, do back to back moves, do longer sessions, use smaller holds etc.
I also do some dynamic endurance work for forearms on the hangboard during the ARC sessions. It´s like doing small chinups with fingertips only and using the weight of the arms as the resistance. This way I´ll do between 100 and 300 pumping moves. Because the capillary veins develope very well by using a dynamic action (compare running, cycling etc) this also has a base in the real life.
As said before I really have seen benefits here in my ridiculous fooling (or boring) around- ARC´s. I can climb pretty hard more days a week, I recover during a hard route much more quickly etc.
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sidepull
May 16, 2006, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: I also do some dynamic endurance work for forearms on the hangboard during the ARC sessions. It´s like doing small chinups with fingertips only and using the weight of the arms as the resistance. This way I´ll do between 100 and 300 pumping moves.
are you talking about rolling up on your fingers, e.g. moving from an open crimp to a full crimp?
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jto
May 16, 2006, 8:39 PM
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a bit more. from totally straight fingers to an full crimp without a thumb. controlled and continuous movement. used to do only 30 but now can make easily 300 with a bit more weight (by feel again).
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