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glyrocks
May 9, 2006, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: krusher wrote: In reply to: IT WAS RAD!!! Get over the politics what a awesome first! weren't you the one freaking out about people dry tooling routes? In reply to: THAT IS SUCH BULL SH*T!!! Tools simply destroy the rock!!! Who ever is doing that crap STOP! yea i thought so..
hah, classic.
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tgreene
May 9, 2006, 6:26 PM
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Laws are routinely broken in Camp-4 as well, so we must decide as a "community as a whole" as to what IS and ISN'T acceptible in the realms of illegal actions on NPS land.
I'm torn on this issue... I would admire it had it been a stealthy Nija raid activity, but despise the publicity as it will only fuel the attempts by others.
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tarzan420
May 9, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: I'm speaking to a sentiment that seems to suggest that any breaking of the rules by any climber is a moral deficiency. I've climbed in restricted areas and I won't apologize for it. I don't care if 'us' is outraged by my transgressions. I wouldn't have called 'us' for bail money iof it came to that either.
I think in some ways, it's a matter of consequeces. If getting caught (or publicising the fact that you're breaking the rules) means you get slapped with a fine, jail time, whatever, that's fine. What you choose to do impacts you, and you alone. However, if getting caught means further access restrictions or a complete closure, you've affected others, I begin to question that. Is it a moral deficiency? I'm not sure. Is jepordizing other's freedoms to pursue their activity of choice as much a moral deficiency as jeapordizing other's health, safety, and life in general? I don't think so.
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 6:46 PM
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From now on, please climb the fucker at night, by moonlight. It should be cool enough where you won't need chalk. Don't tell anyone, or bring the damn Hollywood film crew along. When you rap off, please try to mitigate the nasty rope groove that repeated raps on sandstone create, afterall, we don't want to saw the pig in half.
All will be well in the west. Thanks.
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areyoumydude
May 9, 2006, 6:55 PM
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There's nothing wrong with what Dean did. Sure he pissed off the park, but sense you can't climb arches anyway it won't affect access. The chalk will wash off. I don't think other climbers will be lining up for that one.
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dingus
May 9, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: However, if getting caught means further access restrictions or a complete closure, you've affected others, I begin to question that.
Yes, I can understand that distinction. Time will tell I guess.
DMT
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freeskicolorado
May 9, 2006, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: There's nothing wrong with what Dean did. Sure he pissed off the park, but sense you can't climb arches anyway it won't affect access. The chalk will wash off. I don't think other climbers will be lining up for that one.
Correct, it will not have any effect on the policy banning climbing on named arches. They will remain closed. However, the point is that it could potentially affect access to other, currently legal climbing opportunities in the park.
Did I really just need to point that out?
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 9, 2006, 7:18 PM
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The last time somebody desecrated Delicate Arch, it cost him 150 hours of community service and $10,900 in restitution. Hopefully Potter will get similar treatment. At least Mike Fatali admitted that he was stupid while Potter whines the "I didn't know it was wrong" BS. But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers. Meanwhile the Access Fund has to meet with the NPS to clean up Potter's mess.
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tarzan420
May 9, 2006, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers.
I don't think that was Dingus' point at all. My understanding of him was, "Breaking rules does not necessarily make you a bad person".
Historical Examples of Rule Breakers:
* Jesus
* Martin Luther King, Jr.
* Hitler
In other words, just because Potter broke a rule doesn't mean that he's a horrible person. However, it doesn't mean he's not, either.
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brolloks
May 9, 2006, 7:55 PM
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You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution - DP is definitely not part of the solution to access issues.
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wjca
May 9, 2006, 8:02 PM
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Too bad he didn't drop a couple bolts into that bad boy for all the sport climbers itching to concur the arch and lacking the sack to solo it. Any body got his email? Maybe he'd offer up some beta.
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nuts_r_us
May 9, 2006, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me. DMT When he brought the film crew along and publicized the event, he made himself an ambassador of some kind.
From http://www.fiveten.com/athletes.php?s_a_id=3 :
"Five Ten's team members work as ambassadors, combining outstanding physical prowess, great personalities and an ability to spread their enthusiasm for sport and Five Ten. We value our close relationships with many of the world's top athletes. "
What a perfect ambassador for our sport. Self-serving prick.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 9, 2006, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers. I don't think that was Dingus' point at all.
Seems pretty clear that's exactly what Dingus was thinking when he wrote "Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.
FUCK THAT!"
Dingus equally rants against anyone who thinks Thesenga should have been fired and never rehired for gross stupidity. Ah yes, the freespirit of climbing where rules are made to be broken, public property is for the abuse of climbers, the environment doesn't matter, and anyone who disagrees with the party line is a drone.
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nuts_r_us
May 9, 2006, 8:13 PM
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From http://www.patagonia.com/...ne_ambassadors.shtml :
"Patagonia's Alpine Ambassadors are some of the best and most highly respected climbers in the world. They’re part of our extended family, helping us to develop products, acting as spokespeople and sending us photos and essays from their worldwide adventures"
Hope they rethink that.
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dingus
May 9, 2006, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: But it's all good for ol' Dingus, anything goes as long as it's climbers being climbers.
Yes, its all my fault Potter climbed Delicate Arch.
Go rat me out to someone, I'm sure you'll feel better.
DMT
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dingus
May 9, 2006, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: and anyone who disagrees with the party line is a drone.
I think you should have me fired!
DMT
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krusher4
May 9, 2006, 8:45 PM
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Did he use chalk? The pic is too small for me to tell.
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fightingmuskrat
May 9, 2006, 8:53 PM
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Let's attempt to use some reasoning:
Example one:
Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park.
Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone.
Example two:
Someone illegally breaks the speed limit.
Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers.
This lacks reasoning.
As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers.
Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen.
Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response?
Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace.
I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.
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nuts_r_us
May 9, 2006, 9:06 PM
Post #94 of 322
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In reply to: Let's attempt to use some reasoning: Example one: Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park. Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone. Example two: Someone illegally breaks the speed limit. Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers. This lacks reasoning. As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers. Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen. Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response? Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace. I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.
I agree with you that you lack reasoning. His ascent 'left no trace' except a pissed off park superintendent and a cynical public eye. A speeder in the park benefits 'the man' financially when they get caught. Nearly everybody speeds when they drive, at least part of the time, even if unintentional. I doubt Potter will financially benefit the park, nor is it common to climb the arch, nor was it unintentional. Using one as a comparison for the other makes absolutely no sense.
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mdude
May 9, 2006, 9:07 PM
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YEP. Dean Potter is on my shit list.
He has step over the line and should pay the price.
MD
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crimpandgo
May 9, 2006, 9:39 PM
Post #96 of 322
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In reply to: Let's attempt to use some reasoning: Example one: Dean Potter breaks a climbing rule/law in a National Park. Park Authorities take away climbing for everyone. Example two: Someone illegally breaks the speed limit. Highway Patrol takes away all driving privileges to licensed drivers. This lacks reasoning. As such, it seems the Park Authorities are trying to specifically bully the climbers. Laws/rules will be broken, by climbers and tourists - anybody. It will happen. Of most concern is why the National Park Service reacts with such a dictator-esque, extreme response? Of Note - Dean Potter's effort left no trace. I see the trace of tourists dumping trash out of their car windows at National Parks incessantly.
Dean may have left no trace. the park service is far more worried about trace everyone else will leave when they follow him up the climb.
And I hardly doubt the rope he used to rapell back down left no trace. Even one time on the rock can leave affects, albeit small.
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musicman
May 9, 2006, 9:50 PM
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so when he rapped off did he just through the rope around the arch or what? he left nothing and that seems like the only way to get down without down-climbing. and with how wide it is on top that would definitly do some damage pulling the rope when he was down.
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erclimb
May 9, 2006, 9:53 PM
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climbers are a paradox: we talk about the beauty of the land in tones of worship; we claim to be commited to the purity of our wild places...but, our passion promotes the opposite...i imagine for most people, there is nothing beautiful about some nuts hanging on the side of el cap; we rail about the tourons in their suvs, but we are also blots on the landscape...and climbing accelerates erosion; there is nothing pure about campgrounds, trails, bolts, protection, chalk, rubber shoes, etc.
rather than be thankful for all the amazing places we can climb, we complain about the few we can't...we act as if we are entitled to climb--we're not...the national parks belong to us, which means we are the stewards of the land...we have an obligation (moral?) to protect these lands even (especially?) from ourselves...but as humans, we can rationalize our most selfish acts even as we condemn others who truly may have the most selfless intentions
the arches are special because they are so fragile...el cap will fall some day, but there is a real likelihood that we'll lose some of the arches in our lifetimes...consider this: if we drill in anwr, we will definitely cause harm, but our impact will definitely disappear after we leave; it might take a thousand years, but the tundra will come back...dean potter's 200-pounds likely caused in a few minutes the same erosion that naturally would have taken several years...if that arch falls tomorrow, it will NEVER return
dean potter is a most fortunate man; he has a life that most of us would consider ideal...he is a gifted climber; his wife is beautiful and an equally gifted climber; he can travel all over the world and climb in places most of us can only dream about--on somebody else's dime...he seems to have it all...why did he need that climb, too? this is a classic example of hubris, where the hero sees only himself
the fact is, the nps must come down hard on potter; otherwise, they invite every climber to repeat potter's stunt (with all the publicity, that's all it is), but they are charged--by us--to protect those arches--for us...and many of us will still rant about "leos" and fascist regulations
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triznut
May 9, 2006, 9:53 PM
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I wasn't going to get involved here, but after reading a bunch of idiotic comments, I must spit my 2cents worth....
Yes DP fucked up and broke the rules. Fightingmuskrat makes some good points... Rules will always get broken. This kind of stunt was bound to happen sometime. And who else would you expect to do it..? (and yes, of all the people who should now better) Doesn't matter who did it or what their reasons are for why they did it... I don't care. Obviously he's in some hot water with a lot of people, and he should be... and hopefully his punishment will be harsh enough for him so he thinks twice about it the next time he wants to pull a stunt like this...
What I'm hearing here that I don't like, is that a bunch of you are already jumping to the conclusion that the climbing access there will be cut-off as if it was fact and has already happened. You all need to settle down a bit and lets wait to see what happens first. If they do cut it off completely for us, then will go to DP's house and &&%$^$##@ him up :twisted:
But until anything happens....JUST RELAX and think about the times you've broken the law and why you did it and if you learned anything good out of it when you were caught... :idea:
Peace ya'll!
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